this has been inspired by responses to GG's thread and some thoughts of mine.
Ron I think you said something about you used to cheat on your girlfriends all the time before your w? or am I remembering that wrong? any how I was curious what changed you.
One of the things I loved about my H was he wasnt a flirt, womanizer, watcher or chaser... but after we were married 5 years when his alcoholism started running our lives. He did have an affair. How many? I dont know. or if the numbers even matter. Of course he still swears he has never had an affair! when I was pregnant with my son last year we got closer. both excited about the baby and both leaning on each other more for suport in other areas of our lives etc. we became friends again. However he was still drinking. there was no more violence or verbal abuse in our home. things felt good. then a week before the baby was born on fathers day... the saturday night before he went to a bachelor party and came home at 10 the next morning. went straight to sleep. slept all day. I was fuming because it was fathers day and the girls were really wanting it to be a special day. when he got up in the evening he started drinking away his hangover and went outside and sat on the phone for a very long time. My father called me on my cell because he couldnt get through. my usually would check the caller id but didnt. so I wondered who in the heck was more important then anything else on fathers day. I picked up the phone and listend to him and a nasty ho for a long time. finally after hearing all I felt I needed to know I confronted them. she of course was too chicken sh!t to talk to me. My H swears up and down nothing was going on between them. what they were saying to each other was just because they were drunk. however the next day they were on the phone again. She was telling him how she felt like an ass for the things they were saying to each other. Any how she told him well with the way they talk to each other any one who overheard would get the wrong idea. so they should save it for at work and other places...
Heres the thing, they didnt fool me. I am not THAT stupid. However things have been great with us. He did get help after that and does seem completely diferent now. We seem very close and happy.
Lately he has been throwing this controlling label at me. not angrily or anything just nicely let me know this. The thing is, I really am not. when he asks to go places. I always say its up to you whatever you want to do. I dont tell him what he can or cant do. I dont say it with a tone. I mean it. I didnt even tell him he couldnt talk to or be friends with the nasty ho. Just said if you want our marriage to work please dont have any more inapropriate conversations. behave in a way that you would expect from me. My friends, my sister and my counselor say I am not controlling. As a matter of fact, my friends are always getting on my case because I give him too much freedom. with all his rides he goes on etc. they say he shouldnt have let him go to bachelor partys etc. I dont want to be his mom! I feel like he is an adult he should make his own decisions.
so I was thinking about TC's controlling thread. About how it seems the ones falsely accused of being controlling is because the spouse wants to go outside the marriage.
so... I called my sis. She let me know a LONG time ago when we were all young. 18 - 21. when he was drinking he used to hit on her all the time. tell her how good she looked and how great her ass was. She felt if she would of let him things could of gone well you know... OK, that was a long time ago. but I never knew him to be like that at all! I was friends with him for a while before we dated. One of the things I liked in him that he wasnt like that! Every day he tells me how beautiful I am etc. now its making me sick because I keep imagining him saying this to every other woman.
brings me back to my original question... Once a cheater always a cheater?
Yes, they will always be a cheater, unless they want and get help. People get into patterns and habits, and it's difficult to break those patterns. My XW used to talk about the pattern of abusers - abuse, followed by intense remorse, followed by calm, followed by abuse, ad nauseum. I used to follow the exact same pattern in regards to my temper. Until she left, I wanted to change, but didn't do anything to change, just said I would, and took the calm for success.
No, they won't always be a cheater, if they work at it. Most people require counseling to determine why they cheat in the first place. Obviously, if they're going through the motions, they won't change. But they can change.
So, there's my opinion. Bottom line - people get into habits and patterns, good and bad, and breaking those is extremely difficult.
Sue, Yes, that was me. What changed me was the fact that I respected marriage. I did not marry till I was 27. All my wild oats had been sown. I have no desire to go back there. All the lying, getting caught,talking my way out of it. I have been honest with LF about it also. Which in turn makes her ask the same question? Just yesterday a girl that runs the apt complex I live in flirted with me in front of LF. She is 26, has a young child. LF is 29 and was pretty pissed. She accused me of wanting to be with the girl, I assured her no way. I even told the girl(after the little fallout with LF) that I was not interested and LF saw me do it. She later called and said she over reacted and knows why such a young girl would be interested in me as do I.
I would never cheat again. There are way to many hurts that occur and things that could happen.
Now, LF's cousin who lives here in JAX and was married and is getting D, has a H that used to hit on LF when she was young. Used to say all kinds of comments to her, some very rude. When we first moved here he pants her. Was very embarrassed when the rest of her family saw her thong underwear. I was not there but later told him to keep his hands off her. Well, its seems that her cousin caught the SOB red handed a few months ago with her neighbor! Then he begged her back and told her where he was staying. She went over there and another Ho answered the door. Hence she said F-off and is divorceing him. Right now she is running around, trying to soothe her pain but she has every right to.
So, you see. There are some who will continue vile behavior and put their family at risk and some who won't. I think most who do never know what they will truly lose and take their partner for granted. I think boudries need to be established and consequences for such actions laid out so the possible cheater can make decisions based on those consequnces once they have been known to cheat.
Sue - you've brought up a good topic. Although I sway a little both ways with an answer. I believe those that are "addicts" to the cheating can get help, but I also believe that not all cheaters are addicts.
Also, Ron's post has raised another good question. He stated that he respected his marriage, but also said that he had "sowed his wild oats" prior to tying the knot.
So does that mean that those who DON'T "sow their wild oats" and/or marry young are more likely to cheat in their marriage? (Oh I know that's probably a bottomless question...but I just had to ask). Interested in what other have to say.
There are some men/women out there who will always cheat. I don't understand why these people can't be faithful. I'm not even sure they understand why they do what they do. They are incapable of committing to one person and in my opinion should never have married in the first place. On the other hand,there are people who can stay faithful and there are some people who make a big mistake (this is the only word I can think of at the moment -adultry is not a mistake because the cheater makes a conscious decision to cheat),they are sincerely sorry,they seek forgiveness and then they work to make sure it never happens again. There is no excuse for cheating on your spouse but I do understand that circumstances,emotional problems,etc. could cause a person to get into a tempting situation and give in to it. In my case shortly after our 32nd wedding anniversary I discovered that my H was cheating with this woman he'd met while out of town on a golf trip. The PA had only been going on for 4 months and when confronted my H immdeiately called (with me on extension) and told her that he had never stopped loving me and was going to work on our relationship so their A was over. He did email her a few times after but then he broke off all communication with her in order to repair the damage he had done to us and for us to fix what went wrong in our relationship. In order to work on your relationship it is a MUST that the cheater put the other party COMPLETELY out of their life. It is hard to explain how someone who claims to love you more than anyone could hurt you by having an A but it happens. The trick is to after the first time to do everything in your power to not let it happen again. I believe in my heart there are people like that in the world and I also believe that I am married to one. Even though he hurt me so badly and showed me that he wasn't the man I thought he was,I forgave him because I loved him too much to throw away all those years on one brief A. We were both unhappy and depressed and had stopped communicating and seemed to be drifting away from each other for some reason. He was also very stressed out at work and felt I wasn't being very supportive (which I realize I wasn't but couldn't seem to change). He had reached a point where he didn't care about anything or anybody and really didn't care if he lived or died. The A happened because he went somewhere,met someone who tempted him,started talking and she "seemed" to understand. One thing led to another and they started emailing and talking on the phone. Finally he just decided that things were so bad at home and he felt like he had nothing to lose so he started going out of town once a month (supposedly to play golf)to see her. He confessed later that he never loved her and really never had any feelings for her. He was using her to try and escape his problems. He discovered that you can't escape your problems and that an A only makes more problems. I honestly believe that this will not happen to us again. We have both made changes -we treat each other like we did back when we first fell in love. Now not only do we love each other we truly "like" each other. I will never forget what he did to us and to me but I will not let it stop us from moving forward and living a happy life together. Time heals the pain and after a little over a year I can honestly say that this is true. My H is showing me in everyway he can that he is sorry and he won't hurt me like that again. Pfroglady
very good topic. I will throw my two cents in as well. My first marriage i was 21 and only been with the women that i had married. I never strayed and remained faithful to her. She had a PA and wanted a D. I meet my 2nd wife, and remained faithful to her during the courtship and also marraige. I have only been with two women and i have been married to both of them. I deem sex as something special to be shared with someone you deeply care about. I know it sounds really sappy, but that is my story and i am sticking to it......... I believe that people can only change only if they really want to............... OMO
For so long I felt like affairs were because of something missing. either in the relationship or within the person. Like they were merely a symptom of a problem. My old analogy... a fever and an infection. You could treat the fever and temporarily it will subside but resurface. treat the infection and the fever is gone.
The first affair, well, that I know of. The one he claims never happend yet was talking to a friend of mine about it while she was talking about hers with him. I completely forgave. as a matter of fact I didnt care. It was during a horrible time in our marriage and quite honestly I not only expected it I actually prayed for it. I hoped he would find someone else and leave me alone. He was abusive in every way and I hated him so clearly he felt unloved and wanted to feel wanted, apreciated and passion. I explained to him I understood this and forgive him. he still adamantly denied it. so I figured that was his lie to carry... I offered him freedom from it.
What gets me is the situation with the nasty ho when I was pregnant. things were going well between us. communication was good. every thing seemed good. other then the fact he was still drinking which he needed to detox off of. he didnt want to leave while I was pregnant. Thats what took me by surpise everything seemed so good.
I thought perhaps the cheating and the drinking go hand in hand. both escapes. the drinking was no longer working as an escape. He was addicted but got nothing out of it. So maybe thats where she came in. not to blow my own horn but she couldnt hold a candle to me. A friend of mine told me I am the epitome of the t-shirt "all this and brains too". The only thing she had to offer that I didnt, was she didnt have to be a mom. she could go off on rides with him and talk with him at work. Hey I was the babysitter. She has a tattoo and is a bit trashy. I grew up in a privelleged family and I guess am just the kind ya marry and show off on your arm. I dont know if I would feel better if she was at least better then me. actually I think the big plus with her was she was totally cool with his drinking. He didnt have to be responsible and he could feel 'normal'?
So here we are and things are great and have been for about 9 months straight. so are they really... this time?
I do understand having feelings for someone else while the marriage feels like its been destroyed for years. I was guilty of developing feelings for someone. But the guilt I had for just having feelings was overwhelmingly horrible. My respect for myself, my beliefs, my vows, and quite honestly logic is why I made the choice to not act on feelings. I guess is why I was able to forgive him before.
we were married young... but he did lots of oat sowing before.
I dont know... I miss the innosence. Where you are faithful because you are just so darn in love with each other that no one can catch your eye. It feels like now... we're faithful because were suposed to be to hold the marriage together. for the sake of the children, for the sake of the marriage. Is that just what it evolves into?
Do you really love this person? how can you love someone you find out you dont really know? oh Gosh dont go to that damn love is a choice... sorry I am sick of relationship books, sick of self help books, sick of therapy terms. I dont want to be asked to look on the board and find a feeling word.
I just want to be happy. I just want to love my h and know who he really is and that I am not loving an illusion. I dont want to wonder if things are so great because someone else is temporarily filling some void of his. I am tired of feeling on the fence... holding my breath and trying not to hurt. I want to know things really are what they appear.
I didnt insist on him not talking to her or seeing her because I figured that would just make her that much more desirable. And make me the bad person that ended it. I wanted to know that if he ended it it was because of his choice. I didnt want him to choose me because he would lose his family. I didnt want her to think it was my choice not his. I dont want to live out my marriage with the belief I am second fiddle with leverage.
OMO thats exactly how I feel about it! glad to know there are men that do too.
which then makes me wonder if maybe he and I just arnt right for each other? I hate pornos. he likes them and I am sure the ho does too. she has a thing for Harleys and hey he has one.
Rayanne, I know people can change if they really want to and really try to. I think he has... but how do you know once you have been fooled?
I guess all I can do is live life in the moment. If I get bombed again (and everything comes to a head eventually) then I know I can handle it. I can get knocked down and get back up. I am not really sure on how to not be suspicious now though. He is going on a ride next weekend for 4 days. This could very well be him and the ho's anual trip? Not that I could even go on this ride being we have children and someone has to be responsible... I dont even get invited. I dont know I could stomach it. these are his friends at work he goes with. ones he drank with. ones who I know have had to see him be inapropriate.
Sunday was a family bbq for his union. He said he didnt want to go so we didnt. but then a friend of his called and asked him to come. then came and picked him up. WE were not included. if he changed his mind because he had to simply because his friend asked... then why not bring the family? little things make me go hmmm
Sue, I know you hate to be suspicious but sometimes you have to be. Sounds like he is getting used to you being a babysitter again. The newness of the new child has worn off and now its your responsibility to bring the kids up while he does his thing. I say you ask him not to go. That you need help with the kids and can not miss him for 4 days. Then let him compromise. What can they do for 4 days anyway? Its only fair. If that does not work let him know you want 4 days to go to Hopefuls. Boy, Sue ann's hubby sure stood on his head when she came down. That ol-boy stopped his shananagins when other "men" were around his wife.. Rondo
