F4W, you are on my mind a lot lately. You are doing very good under the circumstance. I so hope that your wife wakes up and realizes what she is doing to herself and your kids and you.
Hugs to you... hang in there and keep up the good work.
Me 54 DS19 and DS17 Married 06/1989 Divorced 01/2011
F4W clearly this is a crappy place to be in. Still, if we are committing to work on ourselves and to be the best that we can, we always need to look what we are doing and saying. In your post I see you saying how you supported your STBX in what she was saying and doing. That is your statement. In the same post I see how you are telling her how wrong she is, that what she is doing is wrong, etc. How is that supporting her? Now, mind you, I agree with you. She is wrong (in my eyes) and what she is doing sucks. But then you have to at least admit that you are not supporting her. You don't get it both ways on this one.
Then you have to decide what it is you want at this point. Are you hoping to get her back? Are you hoping that this M will still work out? Then I'm not sure what you are saying and doing is going to get you at all closer to your goals. While I have been pretty clear on how I'm somewhat down on DBing and firmly believe it is not nearly as effective as we want to think or have been lead to think, I still think it's our best shot. I don't have a better idea. To that end, again your tact is not going to work.
And finally, if you really believe that the two attornies here don't like or perhaps hate each other, which seems a bit odd to me but anyhow, if that is what you think is the case, you really need to dump your attorney and get one that is not at odds with your W's. No good will come from this if these two are really after each other - and if they are both females, good Lord, please dump her. I'm not against female att. just ones that hate the opposing council. I certainly think it is poss. they could drag the two of you into their issues - even if they are not trying to do that. I'm not sure that attornies help at all in a D to begin with. Honestly, I have not seen att. help much at all in matters of one person v another. Almost every single time that att. get involved all that happens is greater frustration and lots of cash out the door and into the att. When they have underlying issues it can only get worse.
Not a rosey post to you - I know that. It does come with honesty and in a manner of trying to point out some things for you to consider. I ask again though, what is it you want at this point? What are your new goals? Lay them out and then decide how to best get there.
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
Sorry to hear its come to this. I have no idea if you are doing the right thing or not, but this is almost exactly where I was this spring. For my wife and I, it is one thing to go around tossing out ultimatums and threats of divorce, but it is completely something else to realize you are really going through it. I seem to recall it was you who would make those threats, which is why we need to be careful what we ask for.
I see your wife’s erratic emotional swings as a natural pattern, one both my wife and I went through (and still go through). She is responding to the surfacing of polar emotions – fear and denial. The fear is obvious. She is afraid of being alone, she’s scared for her future security as well as that of her kids. Your threat to sue for “full custody” (which would really be primary guardian) has triggered some of her deepest fears. There should be no surprise here because I think all of us are ready to acknowledge our fear of losing our kids.
But I think she is also torn by her denial of her own vulnerability, the feeling of how exposed she will be outside of the comfort she gets from marriage (though does not want to admit to), so anger bubbles to the top and she rages at you. I see this particular reaction is very healthy. It is what you have wanted to see all along and it is what she needs to come to terms with. I think she may be scared of confronting her vulnerability, her fear of abandonment and all that. But that is contrary to the image she would like to maintain of herself, so she has repressed looking at herself for years. Now the mirror has cracked and she is confronted with the weakness of that supposedly strong person. I hope she will accept this part of herself and come to terms with it.
This is her first step in differentiating, and it is not unlike the 12 steps in treating addiction – she first needs to recognize she has a problem (Lil knows more about this than me). I think this is the point where you need to REALLY put on the alpha male cloak that Blackfoot talks about and provide her a solid, stable anchor point so she can regain her bearing. This does NOT mean you should re-enmesh with her in any way. You are there to offer a supporting hand. If she loosens her grip, she will slip and she needs to know that it is her action and not yours that will cause this, but you WILL NOT, MUST NOT do anything to try and rescue her if she does let go.
I hurt for her pain right now.
It is good that you are empathic toward her, but do not let this slip into your usual rescuing mode. Her problem is not your problem. The more you try to help her, the more you hurt her, yourself, and your kids! Your number one priority right now is to hold onto yourself. Read through Lil’s thread on Coming to Your Senses to help you with this. Hang in there, you are actually doing exactly what you have to do!
Ohhhh, and one other thing….. It is good that those on this particular board are giving you some moral support and affirmation. We all need it, especially in these hard times. But do not read too much into it. The danger is that you are emotionally vulnerable right now too and this kind of affirmation is SOOOO enticing, it is easy to get on your pity pot and then feel entitled to something better. That will only spiral you down into that resentment pit and you’ve been there before. Take your medicine, come to terms with the fact that you are as responsible for making this mess as your wife, you are not the nice guy, saint, etc. and she is not some devil. You are both normal people with normal dysfunctions trying to find your way through life. Yours is a normal growth process.
Very good post. I am not offended in the least. I agree there may be contradicting statements in my last encounter with her, but to the end of making the point that I am not going to accept her logic that Divorce is logical or I have to agree with it on her "terms" because she desires it.
What do I want? Very good question. What I want is to work on our marriage and be able to get past the resentment of the errors in our past. To lay down the arms and work together in rebuilding something we each tore apart. As I stated to her, things have been said in the past few weeks that have cut me very deep and will take time to heal. But I can move beyond and grow knowing she is so confused and may or may not have known what she was saying. The only way that our M can be saved is to remove D from the vocabulary and table. Otherwise both of us can default back to that position.
Don, I am in a place where I am able to walk away from this marriage nd move on. It is not the decision that I want to make. But it is a decision where I will fight for my kids and my life after divorce. Her current pleadings place me with minmal contact with my children for a majority of the year and places me in a financial bind that I would not get out from under unless I file for bankruptcy. So if faced with a decision of D then I must look for my chidren's interest and then my own. As to support, I am here for her, always will be, but I am unable to rescue her from what she is doing and the ramifications of that. When she needs help, wants to work, then I can offer more. Right now it seems aloof, but my best place for her and I is to remain in a position that allows her to make a choice and live with the consequences.
As to attorney's mine is male and very pro-marriage and would like nothing better than to see us work this out or at least settle without going to trial. Her's is a female that is very condesending. She and my attorney do not like each other. In fact, my wife does not like her either.
My goals have remained the same, to offer unconditional love to my wife, to work and repair our marriage, to drop the BS and move forward. But in that same breath those goals only fit if she wants similar goals. If she chooses D, then my goals are to protect my children the best I can, protect myself finacially, and to eliminate the collateral damage D causes in families.
I am trying not to smug about this. It tears me apart emotionally to see her this way. To hear her cry uncontrollably and say she does not want to hurt me, to say she just wants out, does not put me in a position for compassion, but I do have empathy. Again, for me to force her to make a decision I want is counterproductive. My only move is to let her work this out. A better response I guess to her statements is just to validate and say that is a possible solution to the issues.
Don, thanks again. You cannot offend me, in fact I appreciate the perspective.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
Thank you for the reply to my requst. I am trying to hold onto the stance that I am unable to rescue her. Even if I try, the rescuing will be short lived and we will have accomplished nothing. I agree with the statement about her confronting her fears. This has been coming for the last few weeks. She, I beleive, is seeing that she will not get her way and I will not give in. Not in a mean way. But again in the knowledge that she needs to pull asisde the veil and take a hard look at herself. I had to do this. It is horrible what you see. But knowing what I do know and have gleamed from others (You, BF, Lil, Chrome) you have to confront it then you have to move beyond it and build a better you that is dependant on only you. Do not take this the wrong way, through this process I may not save my marriage, b/c at this point it is not mine to save. But in doing this, I am actually allowing my wife to be herself again. She will, I hope, be able to build her true self again.
You are correct, I have done shameful and horrible things in 12 years. All of which I have apologized for to her. I have asked forgiveness from God, and importantly forgiven myself. I am not the knight in white, but rather the peasant trying to find his path.
Thanks Cobra.
F4W
Through honest giving of my love I will recieve 10 fold in return.
Just because a person does not love you in the way you want, does not mean they do not love you!
It's cool to have moral support, especially in time of crises. And thank God that you/we have it (at least on this BB). However, aside from Cobra, I haven't noticed anyone challenging you lately.
It's obvious to me that you are on a slippery slope towards D. And I say this not because of your W's recent filing. You've mentioned in the past how you've "tried almost everything" to get your W to commit to saving your M. However, it seems to me that you've been repeating more of the same "cheeseless" patterns for the past year (or so).
You claim to be "lovingly detaching" from your W (for her own good), yet you say "I love you" to her regularly. Do you think that she doesn't know it by now? Is that what you think the problem is; that she's unsure of your love towards her?
You write that "you'll continue to support her", yet you continue to disagree with her decision and feelings. You don't validate someone's feelings by disagreeing with them. You don't support someone by threatenig them and basically taking advatange of their weakness. That's not support my friend, and I believe that that type of self-serving, manipulative support may, or will backfire.
You assure her that you do not blame her; yet you tell her "that you're willing to work on the M, but she is not" (essentially blaming her). You state that you do not hate her, yet you also state that you "did not like her right now". These contradictions seem so obvious, yet no one is pointing them out to you.
Quote: I cannot make this decision for you. To do so would be controlling and wrong.
This is exactly what you've been doing Bucket. You haven't given her her space. You haven't always been pleasant and agreeable. You haven't done anything to make yourlelf more attractive, and I don't mean (just) physically. You haven't taken that load of pressure that she's had to endure all this time by feeling responsible for your happiness.
Basically, your W, like everyone else, wants to be happy. They want to have pleasant interactions. Whenever she thinks of you, do you think that she has happy associations in her memory bank about you or your encounters? Does she find you exciting or boring? At least your W is honest; she's told you that she is not going to one day wake up and be that same old mythical W that you've been craving.
Yes she's confused and scared. But so are you. Now is not the time to be self-righteous. Nor is it the time to throw in the towel. When faced with impending disaster, one must act quickly. It's time to be creative! It's time to use your logic and wisdom. Try something different for a change. NO MORE I LOVE YOUs. Instead of backing her into a corner, try unconditionally supporting her, even if it means D.
Communicate to her that after much reflection, you've come to the conclusion that you're the one to blame; that it's all your fault. And that the least you can do is making everything possible so that she can be happy - regardless of whether it includes you or not. Tell her how impressd you are with her for having the courage to finally file; for being brave enough take action and putting a stop to that unhappy sitch that both of you have had to endure all these years. That even though you will miss the nice times you had together in the past, that you are nontheless "proud" of her actions. Then GAL. Don't give her the idea that "you will always be there for her". For if you do, what motivation does she have - aside from possible "quasi-guilt" and being adverse to change - from stopping the D.
The fact that she continues to communicate with you directly, and not through her lawyer - as she has threatened, indicates that she is still in it, i.e, she's still giving you time and your M a chance. It is no up to her Bucket. It is entirely up to you! The ball is in your court. Please don't delude yourself otherwise.
From a friend who truly cares about you and your family.
Having just recently gone through the D journey myself, I am sorry to see you here.
I am on a fact finding mission, so please bear with me.
If you got full-custody of your kids, how would you care for them?
If your wife did get full custody, do you trust her as a mother to take good care of your kids?
Why do you balk at an amount of CS that the court would deem fair?
The reason I ask this last question is one of legal strategy, and my attny. used it against my XH. The very fact that you would balk indicates that you are more worried about money than you are about your children's well-being... whether the amount is fair or not. It is a slippery slope that you will traverse. Keep this in mind when discussing these things with your attny. I will hold off on more advice at this time... I'm not saying these things to piss you off... but one thing you CAN NOT DO right now is think like a man.
How old are your kids?
What are the laws in your state? Are you in a no-fault state? Are you in a state where you have to be legally separated for a certain time before you D is granted?
"However, aside from Cobra, I haven't noticed anyone challenging you lately. "
Hey, hey, hey!!! What am I... chopped liver? I may not have challanged in a nasty way but I certainly challanged. - Damn it! Didn't I? At least I think I did. Well I certainly tried to
DonH Midwest Me 56 WAW-EXW 55 Met 11/95 / Married 5/00 Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06 4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
she bounced back and forth about calling off the divorce, she can do the marriage, to why can't I just let her go, tell her what I want and she will follow, to she is scared b/c I might seek full custody, she will have her attorney make the needed changes, I mean she was all over the place
IMO F4W, I dont see these comments as being all over the place. In each and every comment, you can see her either acqueising to you, or asking your for leadership. Her emotions have her so overwrought that she is communicating directly with you, with barely a hint of womanese. This is very positive.
Now this doesnt mean I want you to go shout, demand or even tell her to stop the divorce. Your actions and responses to her were excellent. Seriously. I had to do the snoopy dance. BF--->
A lot of those comments took either big brass ones or indifferent detachment, and you obviously are not detached.
Im going to guess that you are thinking... how can the statement "why can't I just let her go," be positive?
She is seeking validation in this comment. In your pain, and fear of loss, lack of confidance, you are misinterpreting her intent. She has treated you abominable and she knows it. She doesnt think she deserves your love. This is one reason you need to lay off the ILY. She cant let you love her, and those comments and behaviors give her something to resist. This is the reason your telling her she isnt nice and you dont like her very much right now, is positive. It meshes with her inner voice and lets her know she has things she needs to work on. Its the opposite of supplicating. Its the truth, and its congruent. she doesnt have to fear a hidden agenda down the road, (backlash, anger, cruelty, fake love) when she sees you coming from your place of honesty.
All while you are standing there steadfast and not jumping up and down the emotional ladder with her. Women are so attracted to that. This is just another test.
So a couple ideas. Do you know the concept of imagary? its used in sports alot, but it works in all things. Continue to be certain of what you want. See it. Dont let anything Shake your vision of what you want to be. if or when she says blah blah let me go.blah blah. try something like ' Im not holding you here. Im glad that you are, but You are here,..... because you want to be.' This comment is confidant, and reassuring. ignore all negative responses or cruel words, if.... .
Try to eliminate the ---'if you want'... or... 'you know, you dont have tooo'.... etc. It comes across supplicating. She knows she doesnt have to do anything. It doesnt have to be said. You arent forcing or demanding anything. Just being certain, confidant, and headed to where you want to be.
Think of other ways to communicate that you are certain she loves you and confidant she wants a good marriage with you. Every time you fight she practically begs you to lead. sooo. lead. with baby steps. Little things. day to day stuff. no demands. if and when she chooses not to follow, shrug it off.
So my sister writes an email to my STBXW and tries to get her to consider joint custody This is the second time OP has gotten involved in your affairs. I dont see any benefit. Unless you do, get these OP under control, where it comes to YOUR marriage. I know your sister saw you in pain. Its not her problem to fix though.
