Kent said I should start my own thread, so here goes.
I'm a lot excited and a little scared to be posting here. This section of the board is one I've always aspired to be part of, and it's been a tough road getting here. After lots of up and down, back and forth, talk of and to lawyers and filing, OM that wouldn't go away, lots of snooping on my part... the whole nine yards, we've reached a point where she's willing to "work on our marriage". The details of how we got to this point are somewhere on Newcomers, and are largely unimportant except for a couple of points: First, HOW we got to the point of trying to reconcile was through a horrendous OR talk that resulted in me spilling a lot of stuff that I've not said in the interest of "good DBing"... By that, I mean I've been doing the detachment thing, the no OR talk thing, the give her space thing. She told me that she read it as lack of interest and "permission" for her to carry on her affair, and move on with her new single lifestyle. She said she had no idea I felt as strongly for the marriage as I did (but she was an alien, and lies). The 180 in our situation, it seems is MORE OR!!! Tho, in this new phase, it does seem less is more. Who knows? Second, after that fight, she said she'd give us 3 months to work on the marriage, she'd stop seeing OM, and she agree to counciling. Third point, I had once said one of my main conditions for even beginning to consider granting her a divorce was that she make the effort to work on our marriage and only if it then proved unworkable would I condider ending it. I'm not convinced that this "attempt" to work on our marriage is genuine, and not a ploy with an agenda to "prove to me" that this is over. I'm now convinced that the OM isn't just "biding his time" for three months, and that she'll not pull the plug after 3 months. I laid it out in http://66.111.66.234/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=004355 This new phase started on Oct 4, so we are about 32 days into the 3 months...
Anyway, we've been to 3 C session. Although I've asked a couple of times now, both in and out of C sessions, I still don't know W's definition of "working on our marriage". I've expressed that I feel we need to make measurable goals to evaluate that, and I expressed concern about the feeling that "3 months" was a deadline, not a working period. So far, she's agreed that both those are reasonable concerns... we are working on some goals in C, and she's agreed that 3 months is a flexible time frame, not a drop dead date.
On the positives, she's now told me that she's stopped seeing OM, and she's only had phone contact with him a couple of times. She said he's under "strict orders" not to call or email her. That term, "strict orders" bugs me, because is sounds like agreement, and conspiratorial, but my mind is a mess right now. We are getting along generally well. She never moved out of house, but did move out of Bedroom in late August. The other day, she slept in our bed while we had a houseguest (she's been in the guestroom). Tonight, we both watched the World Series in "her place". Then good-night, and I'm typing this before I go to bed. Things seem to be getting better, closer, at least for the past couple of days.
I guess I don't have much more to say right now, I just wanted to open this door. I read all of JJ's, ALTL, Rudi, Kent, and LeeP's threads here, and they've given me so much a sense of peace that was missing before. I (probably like most of you) thought that once I got her to work, and then got her to a marriage C that it would be all down-hill from there. I had no idea that this phase can be even more stressful than when she was actively, openly with the OM and talking divorce and lawyers in every other conversation. Reading you stuff has been so grounding.
I, like Kent, took a long time off, and pretty much avoided the boards for a while. But in the past week or so, I've gotten so much from them, especially here. I like the pace of this area. I like the more "journaling" format it seems to have taken on. I think I'll stick around. Thanks so much for the support you've already given me.
Z, Sorry about the advice you got to not talk to your W during the A and the bomb. Dimness or darkness is suppose to be reserved for two reasons. 1) The walked on spouse loses a grip(as we all do) and needs to spend time finding a centered position. 2) The WAS states that she is not interested in hearing any OR talk. Neither is a case for perpetual dark.
I did not use any darkness during my ordeal. I did use varying degrees of dim to avoid all unecessary and counterproductive OR conversations. I had to experiment to find out when the time was right for OR.
Your right in that your W may be B.S'ing you. But then, why would she need to. She could have just left. I suggest you give up on that obsession and do a little "acting as-if" she is genuine. Reach down deep inside and give-up on OM as well. Your focus needs to be on the R and yourself.
If OM won't go away, there will be a time to deal with him. This is not that time. This is your time. She is with you.
This is not a time to be gun shy. You need to try new things to find "what works". Three months is a lotta opportunity to implement some meaningful changes.
If you get the opportunity during a C session, ask W what would be the first sign, to her, that things were improving. I'll bet she can rattle off a few. Don't get hung up on long term goals right now. W does not want to hear that kinda crap. Stick to short term stuff. My motto used to be "One day at a time".
You're absolutely right about opening up being a 180 in some situations. It sure was with mine. I kept too much inside of myself and never really opened up to my W. Kinda sucked things in and let them fester, dealt with them on my own, which was bad for the R. My W works pretty strongly off of her feelings, so I've been learning how to "speak to her in her own language". In the process, she's learned to listen to and to trust my "logic" a lot more. A win-win situation all around. It's a slow process, but well worth the efforts. The big trick in this was learning how to talk, and how to listen, less defensively. The OR talks have become more of a learning experience instead of a battle of wills.
Kent's right about the acting-as-if it's gonna work, and believing that she's sincere. Remember the self-fulfilling prophecy rule. Don't expect everything she does to be perfect towards the mending the R. It ain't gonna be. Learn to catch her doing things right, and appreciate them to her out loud. Keep your goals small and achievable, and it'll be amazing to you how the small "goods" can snowball into bigger, better things.
I tend to shudder when I hear people talk about "working on their marriage". It's much better to work on your relationship as friends who'll be spending the rest of their lives together. The marriage thing can be a bit overwhelming at this time, and you don't want to scare her away with too many expectations. As Kent said, don't get hung up on forcing the long term goals right now. Don't bring up the 3 month time period to her again!! Way too much pressure. The reconciliation process can't, and shouldn't be, measured on a calendar.
Stick around here, buddy! Looking forward to hearing more from you!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
I'm feeling kind of set adrift right now. Actually, W and I have been getting along great for 10 days or so. Suddenly, she became friendly. As an R tho, we are still up against a wall. No movement at all, except in the ability to chat. But, this comes and goes all the time. Usually in the past, it comes if OM is not around for a while, then goes when he returns. Now, she swears she has no contact with him... But, just this morning, she cooled again... after being out till after 1am last night.
JJ, you write extensively of having you W go MIA. How do you cope? Mine has never done that physically, but does it emotionally all the time, and it seems in direct relation to her contact with OM.
I'm still really bothered by this "work on the marriage" thing. I'd prefer we agree to "try to make the marriage work", and define that, and work a plan. I've said I have an uncomfortable thought that her "work" is just ploy. This is supported by her unwillingness to define "work". There are no goals against which to measure, and she ignores my requests for them. I've brought it up a couple of times, and I don't want to push this, but it's really important to me. We have another C session tomorrow. Should I bring it up again? Goals and a statement of intention are what I'd like to hear. C gave us homework the first session that asked us to tell what we felt essential to an R, what we would not tolerate in an R, what good, and what "challenges" we each brought to R. We both "handed in" our homework, but nothing has come of it yet. C says she has plans to work with this. It is prime goal building material, but without C's help, I can't get W to come up with goals. There is a combination of what seems like reluctance on her part, and my inability to explain what I feel we need to do to form goals.
Anyway, just a ramble. I'm sputtering, but it's because I feel frustrated and stagnant. Thanks for listening...
Hey Z! That whole R limbo thing does totally suck. Been there, done that, far too many times. I can relate to what you're feeling.
I didn't cope with the MIA thing very well for a long time. Spent far too much time wondering, worrying, and freaking-out about it. I finally learned to detach myself from it quicker, and to quit taking it so personally. I learned it wasn't always about me, or OR. I tried to make sure I gave her plenty of space, and tried to distance an amount close to equal of her distance. I even ended up going MIA quite a few times myself.
I, too, noticed some of my W's distancing happening when there was contact with om. Probably more of a reaction to guilt feelings on her part. It may be a good idea for you to distance at this time to let her work through this, and so that you don't let any anger over it cause any damage.
It's pretty important to really take advantage of the "getting along great" times to grow the good feelings she has when she's with you. Don't expect any immediate reactions to it, but if you do it right, you'll help to build a more solid base from which to work, and to draw her back towards you completely.
One of the hardest things about this part of the journey is keeping your patience. Things start progressing, and we have a tendency to want to rush things along too fast. Big mistake. Learn to embrace these limbo periods, and use this time to reflect on how far you've come already, how you got there, and maybe experiment a little with something slightly different. Above all, do no harm to your R.
Remain calm, be comfortable with letting her set the pace. Don't overwhelm her, or yourself, with too many goals at this time. Let her learn to be comfortable with you again. Learn more about her and her wants and needs, even and especially the little things. And do lots of things for yourself.
Hang in there, buddy. It's a long road, try to enjoy the scenery and appreciate all the good things along the way!
[ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Jamesjohn ]
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
Z, Her way of working on the marriage right now could be just going to the counseling. I think that is were my H is at. At times a little more but mostly counseling. I think during these confusing times it is that much more important to work on ourselves again. To show the spouse that we want to be different for the sake of our own happiness. I would say don't bring up the goals yet. It may be a little too soon. As hard as it is sometimes let the counselor to their thing. Sometimes I wonder whose side my counselor is on but hanging in there is part of the game. If you push it you may end up pushing her away, not intentionally of course. My H said once which so goes along everything that we see on this BB "I don't want to be pushed back, I want to be pulled" so show her the wonderful you and stop pushing.
I hope this helps. My H was in the 'not sure about working on the marriage for about 10 weeks' we finally are all on the same page Counselog, my H and myself. It seemed for a while there everytime H made progress or it so seemed to me the counselor was questioning him. I WAS READY TO GIVE HER A PIECE OF MY MIND. But she came through last week. So now we are TRULY all 'working on the marriage' Hopefully not too much about my relationship. But it seems a little similar. Remeber baby steps.. well first they slide on their back SLOWLY, then they sort of turn but go back on laying on their back. Then they turn on their belly, but go back to laying on their back again, then they start crawling but at times they are not sure about it so they may go back to laying..but once they start walking and they are sure of it, those baby steps becomes more consistant and there is no more going back to laying around. Think about it. I have an infant so I am using baby logic.
Thanks for the great perspective. After reading your thread, I really understand two valuable new concepts (at least for me): "Progress, not perfection" and "Catching her getting it right". I've added those to two of my favorite Michele-isms: "If it's not working, try something else" and "Always consider your goals... If what you are about to do will bring you closer, do it... If it will push you away, don't" (paraphrased). Now I'm feeling like I have a pretty complete set of guidelines.
Reading you experiences is so helpful. It seems you've seen it all and have formed pretty good plans about dealing with it. Going MIA myself is a good thing. And, a bit easier than your sitch, I imagine. I say this because I'd never try to "out-do" her on the MIA thing, just give her a taste of her own medicine. Since she NEVER has stayed away all night, I don't have to go there either. Less confrontational that way, I think. An all nighter on my part would be a challenge, as I see it.
jtolic-- Boy, the baby thing you wrote is so helpful. Of coures we all know about baby steps, but you're breaking it down further helps. Micro steps. And we all know you gotta creep and then crawl before you can walk. Thanks. I'm also interested in your wanting to take the C to task. I'm feeling a lot of what we've been hashing up to now is all about me. W has said little, and we've talked little about her, and none about the affair. I feel my role in the R is being disected. She just sits. She doesn't ask or answer much. She makes startling proclaimations about me, then we spend half the session on me. Again. So, do you think this kind of thing eventually comes full circle, and then the process moves ahead?
As I've mentioned, I'm still concerned about the "time frame" issue. Yes, I've been doing all I can, but it feels like she's dragging her feet. It seem to me as if she feels that once she opens up and defines things like goals, and what "working on it" means to her, she's committed to work toward that to some kind of more open ended resolution. If those things are left undefined, she could just unilaterally pull the plug on the "deadline" date, saying "this isn't working for me". Just a feeling. We are now almost halfway through the 3 months with little progress, other than talking more. Goals are nebulous, she only talks on her schedule, and her time. Almost any time I try to initiate a talk, she's not available, and gets angry. When she initiates, she's got an agenda and a short list of issues. When she's done, she's done. I still feel she's hiding lots of things, including contact with OM, even though she says there is none. I still see the "OM hangover" that I used to see after known contact with him. As JJ said, it's like a guilt thing, a distancing that takes time to overcome. That time is making me nuts.
I know if this "attempt" was open ended, it would be so much easier. It's the "deadline" aspect that has me the most squirrelly. I have another C session this afternoon. Should I bring this up --- again? My main plan for today's session is to try to get the topic away from me and the past so much, and try to concentrate on us and the present and future. I plan to express my need to know what "working on the marriage" means, say "I'd prefer that we agree to try to 'make the marriage work', formulate some goals toward that, and then just listen as much as possible.
Z, We know what you would prefer and what you consider as progress with the R, but thats not the issue here and now. Stop obsessing about the 3 month thing cus I'm here to tell you, she could split tomorrrow. The 3 month promise is not cast in stone in either direction.
You are pushing way to hard for stuff that W is in no position to answer. Set smaller goals. I reiterate the question I suggest you ask at the C session.
************************************************ If you get the opportunity during a C session, ask W what would be the first sign, to her, that things were improving. ************************************************ Don't ask for any more than that. Don't confuse her with "TOO MUCH". Remember, she is already confused. You really don't want to add to that or come off pushy. She needs to feel no pressure from you. If she can't answer that simple question, aske her to think on it and get back to you. If she can't answer that simple question, you will know just how confused she really is.
previous answers to that question have ranged from "nothing" to "I don't know". But I've never asked it in therapy. The "get back to me" approach is good to try. Her normal pattern with requests like that is usually to ignore me, but occasionally she does respond some time later with rather thoughtful answers. If I ask in therapy, hopefully C will bring it up next session.
Z, If she can't answer that question, you have no choice but to back off and focus on your own attitude, actions and re-actions. You should be focused here anyway, but this may need to become your sole focus for a while.
