Moving On

[Underdog]

Hey Kevin! I've been reading up down on your thread when time permits... how's the job hunting going? I'm keeping you in my prayers. A big old margarita or beer sounds good. I hear you on BVP vs. Jay Cutler... however, it will be a lot less confusing for our "neighbor" to make the transition from "Love the Jake" to "Love the Jay"! I'll still cheer for Bradlee with you, though. And yes, my colleague is getting his season tix again, so count me in! It's a date...

I'm not in the football mode yet. Still getting over the hockey blues... as well as the void left in my weekly routine from D12's volleyball practices and tournaments. It's been a weird transition.

I've already caught up with Wonder, so that leaves Slowly. Good to see you in our 'hood!

Nothing much happening in my world. I've been managing my feelings toward some specific friends, XH, and parents okay. I'm in dire need of letting go of my expectations that they might act differently than I like. Yes, this ties nicely to what Michele has been saying on her thread.

I think I finally grasp what this means to me and what I need to do from here on out. I wish I could say it is going to be an easy thing do do, but it's not. Particularly in my R with my mother. While I don't expect her to be different, I think I'm constantly amazed (in a negative way) at how angry and stuck she seems to be, and how much worse it's becoming with time.

I found myself defending D12 on Saturday, after my mother lectured me (read: raised her voice) about discouraging D12 in her "obsession" with volleyball. I fail to see how this impacts her life whatsoever, and let her know that her dad and I are both completely fine with her "obsession". Especially since she's making A's in school and keeping up with her regular life already in progress. After I hung up, I called my sister and asked her, "So, the big question is why do I continually feel like I have to defend D12 and myself to her? What's it to her?"

My sister's only response was, "Because someone has to?" Arrgggh. In a nutshell, we both realize that my mother is the typical angry person--what she fears makes her angry. And since she doesn't understand my life with my girls at all, it causes her distress to see me maneuver through things that she considers not worthwhile. I understand it, but it doesn't make me happy.

So, I'll do what I've had to do with other friends who go that route with me: distance myself some more as well as emotionally detach. 100% of the time, I can see that their reaction (or lack thereof) is about them and not at all about me.

I only wish it hadn't taken me 44 years to get it... so Michele, you're not the only one who's had to reframe Rs with certain people and expect less.

Betsey

[princess_nic]

Hi Betsy!

Coach Laurie suggesting I check out your thread, but she couldn't remember your screen name. I didn't know who you were, but now I've found you!

Gosh, your posts to MH have been great. I am in the space of really feeling compassionate towards H most of the time (still angry sometimes), but like you, not wanting to be with someone who truly cannot love me. He says himself that he can't feel love for anyone but his kids, and doesn't even know what it is. Well, pretty sad...and to be honest, pretty annoying if love is a choice (which I believe it is). But that's where he is and I can't change that. He is in counseling, and I do hope he gets some peace from that. I am still hoping to reconcile, but after nearly 10 months, I'm getting used to life w/o him and...it's not so bad!

~Nicola

[MicheleTW]

Bets, I am going to write down what I just read to you from "Why Is It Always About You?" by Sandy Hotchkiss, because it might be helpful to others:

When deflecting the shame projected by [another person], resist the urge to retaliate. Don't try to challenge or enlighten this person either. The [other person] has a lot at stake in keeping unconscious processes unconscious . If you try to tamper with this, you may escalate the situation to your own detriment or discomfort.

This was written about narcissists, but I think it's true with all people who are tormented by shame or crippling self-esteem. Some people would rather remain safely unconscious than risk the heartache and change consciousness might require.

The book goes on to suggest that you work with a person such as this as if they are two or three years old -- not talk down to them, but speak clearly, firmly and with respect.

I really love this book and have found it really useful.

Your pal,
Michele

[Underdog]

Michele--I wrote it down right after we got off the phone! Plus I forwarded it in a message to H2H (which I was composing when you called). Thanks!!!

Nicola--Welcome! I love Laurie! She's an awesome coach, and I found her dose of realism and optimism exactly what I needed when I needed it the most. You're in great hands! Please tell her I send my regards, because she's an awesome woman.

Gosh, your posts to MH have been great.

Thanks. I love to help others, especially if I can help them shortcut some pain and agony that might be avoided.

I am in the space of really feeling compassionate towards H most of the time (still angry sometimes), but like you, not wanting to be with someone who truly cannot love me. He says himself that he can't feel love for anyone but his kids, and doesn't even know what it is.

Boy, I understand, Nicola. The anger part is about how I feel, but everything else can muster some compassion. I figure it must be very tough to be so confused and so unable to choose a path which might help heal and foster a happier outcome (even if that means taking the steps necessary to end a marriage in a kind, adult fashion).

Well, pretty sad...and to be honest, pretty annoying if love is a choice (which I believe it is). But that's where he is and I can't change that.

It IS sad. And definitely annoying when you're standing on the side of the fence that can offer a better vantage point. I felt that way for a very long time. Actually, I still do.

For example, Mr. Wonderful had a fishing trip this past weekend with his buddies. They took the motor home up to the mountains and got a head start on Friday. So when he called me last night to tell me he was home, I was more than a little surprised to hear that sullen attitude pouring forth in our conversation.

I'm seeing concrete evidence that pretty much everything we do reflects a choice or series of choices. How hard would it be for him to come home and say to me, "I had a great time!"??? Instead, I heard how hot it was, how the fish weren't biting, how poor he slept... all the things that I had pretended weren't issues before but really were.

He is in counseling, and I do hope he gets some peace from that.

That's a wonderful thing to pray for, Nicola. I still find it in my heart to pray for the father of my kids as well. I honestly don't want him to be so unhappy.

Ten months isn't that long in the scheme of things. Maybe his C will help him own some of the unhappiness he's slung your way? Hope for the best, Nicola. Not the best outcome you want, but the best outcome that you need. Then you'll win 100% of the time.

Even though I never imagined my D being a positive thing, it turned out to be a very positive outcome. I don't make excuses for his piss poor attitude anymore, and I don't have to feel as though I need to downplay my attributes and strengths so as to make him feel better about himself.

And it took a lot of hard work to get to that point.

I'm glad you popped in... please feel free to drop in with comments anytime!

Betsey

[Underdog]

Nicola,

One other thought that some distance has given me personally. I'm not saying this is true for anyone else but me, though... so please know this post script isn't any type of projection or other form of backhanded implication.

Now that it's been one full year since my D was finalized, I've had plenty of time to think and mull. I've had the chance to go back and take another look at a puzzle--where for the longest time, the pieces didn't fit, but I had jammed them in to make them seem as though they fit.

What I see now is that they had not fit for a really long time, if ever. And as I ruminate all the years where I felt an uneasy sense of foreboding and despair, I see that I had every reason to feel that way. He offered me comfort in the way of the words that I wanted to hear, but his actions clearly spoke to an alternate truth.

Now this puzzle might just make others here very uncomfortable. It made ME uncomfortable even thinking about it. But I'm getting more bold in my self posed questions, and I'm forcing myself to take a good hard look at the person I was and the feelings that seemed to dog me around every corner.

I know I was a self-professed crazymaker (which was true), but the most pervasive feeling I can remember about our marriage was that my XH didn't love me.

There, I said it.

I often felt as though he was keen on the idea of what a good marriage looked like, but lacked the feelings required to make a real marriage happy and healthy. I'm not saying I didn't have my own poop to put on the table, but I did love him. I didn't love the idea of him, but him. And my most uneasy feeling for months now has been the fact that I honestly don't think Mr. W. ever really loved ME. Yes, Me=Betsey.

The thought used to cause me despair and anguish. Oddly enough, it doesn't do that for me anymore. The truth no longer holds power over me, and it no longer hurts. It's a little uncomfortable admitting this now, but that's all that I left in my head to wrestle with.

Now, I'm free to find something special with someone who wants to love me--and definitely vice versa.

Life is odd...

Betsey

[MovinOn]

Hi Betsey!

Are our mothers twins? Ever watch Gilmore Girls? Emily is my mother. She wears her anger and disapproval like a banner. I spent my teenage years wondering why I never did things right. Then adopted an attitude of it was her problem, not mine. I had real friends and a life.

As to Michelle's book quote. Thanks! At first I thought, "No, mom doesn't fit the narcissist MO and low self esteem. But she is full of fear! Her driving fear is ," What will people think?"

Too bad I have senioritis! I read a quote about Anger being an outward display of fear. (Just can't remember the pretty words!)

Hugs,
Pattie

[MicheleTW]

Bets, this is going to sound so pathetic. But. During my long M, I used to watch romantic movies and cry like a baby. My single thought was, "Would anyone ever love me like that?"

See, I knew XH didn't love me like that. But here's the difference between you and me. He said he loved me. So I believed him. Although his behaviors weren't loving, and didn't feel like love to me -- he said he loved me, I wanted him to love me, and that was that.

What dissonance it caused for me. What anguish, what confusion.

I remember meeting one of his colleagues just after the Bomb, who said to me, "XH is always talking about you. He really admires you and thinks you're great." I remember feeling dumbstruck. "He was talking about ME?"

I think many people go into marriage to fix something. I know for me, I thought that if I were married people would think I was normal. I especially thought XH was a great candidate because he had an intact, large, connected family and was crazy about me. I loved him. Marriage was the antidote to my childhood issues, as my parents crafted an isolated life (separate from grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins and neighbors), and were somewhat distant, cold and using in relation to me. Et voila! Marrying XH would cure all of this for me and prove that I was worthy.

Not exactly the 'right' reason to marry, but a common one, I think.

When two people go into a R with different, unspoken intentions, I think they set themselves up for trouble. If a man marries because "it's time" or because he wants to establish that he's a man, then where is the commitment to the partner? As long as she lets him feel established, or manly, she's OK. When she doesn't, or asks for more intimacy, more reality, more loving -- he could feel like the rug is pulled out from under his feet. What he's getting is not what he wanted.

Likewise, if a woman marries as a cure for her own loneliness or to prove she's OK or because it's time, where's her commitment to the partner? Does it only exist as long as he's meeting her objectives?

Throw in unresolved pasts and murky consciousness, and it's a wonder any marriage lasts!

But, I'm an optimist and think it can happen. And it will happen for me in the future. IF. If both my partner and I are clear and conscious and committed.

Off the soapbox,
Michele

[Glenda_aka_kc]

Hey Michele, Betsey -- Let me play devil's advocate and throw in a question. What about arranged marriages? I can't remember what college class....hmmmm....but we studied cultures, families, extened families, marriages, etc., and there are some places out there with very different marital and family expectations.

Of course, from the rulz girl point of view, do we place too much emphasis on chemical brain love as opposed to a committed, loving, deep bond that occurs between two people who share a life time of experiences? I was going to say good experiences but I don't think any life can have all "good" experiences.

I got a good chuckle from someone who posted that their angry mother's mantra was "what will people think?" That could be my ex during the last couple of years. It was all about what others perception of him/us was. I will have to examine that statement. I don't think I really give a whit at this point but Michele might gently point out I should give that closer examination.

Well, it is off to work with me. Coffee cup is empty, trash is at the curb, and manager is in training all day so I'm it!


kc

[Underdog]

Pattie--Why yes, it certainly sounds as though our mothers are related! All this latent anger has to go somewhere, so why not project it on people they love?

Michele and I discussed narcissism yesterday to some degree. I read a book a few months ago about how narcissism is really a different (yet equally dishonest) portrayal of self loathing. Where the open self loather makes himself or herself obvious, the narcissist paints himself above who he is so others don't see the self loathing. Either way, you deal with someone who can't or won't see themselves differently.

And yes, I do believe that we are taught self love or self loathing early on. My mother is an empathetic person (which Michele tells me is not present in a true narcissist), but she carries a lot of shame and fear around in that luggage. My mom also grew up with a mother who said frequently, "What will others think?" Mom just took on a different slant to that question: "What will others think if they know the truth about me?"

Michele gave me some thoughts to ruminate yesterday and I knew they were worth mulling. I did. Then I had a lengthy convo with a friend of mine (who is also a colleague) who faces similar challenges with his mother. We discussed applying filters to all future telephone conversations, which is exactly what I need to do from here on out.

But... we also discussed Michele's thoughts as well. I think I'm just going to send my mom an e-card every week (or a simple e-mail message) just saying that I love her. Perhaps hearing those words (or seeing them) might remind her that there IS love for her and around her. Memo to me: Let brother and sister in on the game. More power in numbers.

Michele and Glenda--I'm not losing ANY sleep over my ponderings of late. Honestly, I wasn't trying to compare a movie/TV love to that Mr. Wonderful did provide. I honestly do believe that he loved me to the fullest extent he could possibly love another without loving himself.

But I just didn't feel that he loved ME for ME.

What you're saying about coming into a marriage to fix something resonates with me. If I give myself a half hour to think about that, I'm sure I could identify 3 things that I was hoping to fix through marriage. Not very honorable on my part, but I've definitely learned from this entire experience.

Next marriage will definitely be different--from the get go. I'll choose to focus on the love and accepting the truth that lie between us. I'll embrace the differences and learn to love them. I'll even commit to making better choices the next time around and being more cognizant of the consequences for my decisions and behaviors.

That's the most I can promise to anyone. I promise to try--every single day that I wake up next to him and realize how fortunate I am and how blessed my life really is.

For the record, I DO know that Mr. Wonderful likes me. And for the most part, I like him too. He came over to help me move furniture last night and we wound up chatting amiably about stuff--our mothers, work, anger, etc. It was nice to be able to sit down to dinner (okay, calling take out from Arby's dinner is really stretching it) and converse easily. I made a statement which I knew if taken wrong could hurt... it was about his R with his late mom. He looked at me very kindly and said, "I know EXACTLY what you mean by that, Bets. No offense taken, and I can understand why you feel that way. I feel that way sometimes myself."

He left with a very excited D9 and then D12 and I had to get busy setting up her new room. Now... just need some help from DirecTv and we'll be all set.

Pattie, I have senioritis too! Did you know it's a bonafide side symptom of menopause? That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

Betsey

[MicheleTW]

What about arranged marriages?

I think people in arranged marriages go in with different intentions. They may not have the intention that this is a romantic relationship. They may not expect a "love connection" but a practical connection. They may not look to their spouse to meet their emotional needs.

They may grow to love. They may experience romance. They may find their emotional lives richer. But I doubt they go into with those expectations.

While those of us in non-arranged marriages expect the romance to last, for our spouse to be our soul-mate, our "better half", for them to meet our emotional needs -- even if we can't define exactly what that means to us.

As a rulz girl, let me say that an arranged marriage might work because both parties know the rules from the outset -- "We must stay in this marriage because it means so much to our families." That's a big, honking rule, if you ask me!

It was all about what others perception of him/us was. I will have to examine that statement. I don't think I really give a whit at this point but Michele might gently point out I should give that closer examination.

Ah, you know me too well!

Your lower-48 pal,
Michele