Hi underdog - - sorry to nick your thread UD just wanted to be respond to wonder and david's thoughts - this is quite a deep thinking thread.
Quote: casual with me and not address the issue, keep the elephant in the living room
I think that is a biggy for me huge stumbling block - H won't address anything and anytime I have come close to the issues even gently - he has requested space or I get the old "I don't know". I have never approached him with an attitude of blame - just sort of what can we both do to sort this out.
Being in his company has left me frustrated, hurt, angry and exhausted. I think for my own sanity and mental health I have had to back off. My raging torrent of anger has calmed a little now and I feel quite serene and forgiving again - I do believe these are some of the prerequisites of DBing - that and patience by the lorry load.
Sorry UD to threadjack but there is some really great discussion on this one.
You can yield more power with silence than a thousand words
Wow! Surfing the boards and I find Betsey and H2H! It's always a joy to read your posts, Betsey. I was having a bad day and you put me right back on track. I'm not asking you to come read my sitch. I think I'm doing OK and I know how draining it is to soak in the pain posted here. It's just nice to read some of your philosophy again. Of course if it's not on my thread I don't have to worry about watching out for the 2X4.
I'm glad to see you are moving on and I really wish you the best. DavidM, you better not wait 2 years for that date. She will be long gone by then. Betsey is a hottie!
Alright, I've been thnking about this for a while now, to find a way to explain exactly what was going through my head on the whole "pink elephant" dilemma...after talking with Bets last night, we concluded that there is not a right or a wrong her, but just goes to show that what each person needs (LBS vs. WAS) is at polar opposites.
So let me see if I can't explain that thought for a second. When I say that I was more interested in getting back to normal conversation, I wasn't necessarily talking about ignoring the elephant in the room. You have to remember the the WAS feels the entire time that they've been talking about the problem forever, and at the same time they felt like the LBS was the one not wanting to talk about it or fix it.
So, when I walked out, when I left, I wanted him to let me go. I wanted him to let it go. I wanted to find out way back without all the relationship crap we've been emersed in. We had so much crap around us that we couldn't see our hand in front of our face. I was no longer wanting to talk my way back there. I wanted to start doing stuff for me, him to start doing stuff for him and for us to mutually find our way back to each other. The irony at this time is that the LBS is more interested in reestablishing commitment by words than they are and just working to cultivate the relationship. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just that inherent desire one has when you feel like you've lost something. Interstingly enough, I finally found that spot in my heart and mind where him and I could start over, and it had nothing to do with talking to him, it had everything to do with figuring my own schtuff out. I think that if I hadn't finalized the divorce papers, I still think that we'd be right where we are today. All that is keeping us apart is his own stubbornness of hanging on to the pink elephant in the room...he's still mad about the elephant...and quite honestly I feel like this now
"I made some mistakes, you made some mistakes, we hurt each other, but now you know what you know, I know what I know and those are all very good things, must we talk about all the things that went wrong? Must we continue to communicate in the same way? Let's just start over...Hi, I'm Nickel. I like skiing, golf, tennis, and having a great laugh. You are?"
Honestly, I so wanted to just start over and he wouldn't let that damn pink elephant out of the room....it was always there, and was there because he didn't know if the elephant was going to leave or stay and it drove him nuts.
Nickel
"The walls we build around us to keep sadness out also keeps out the joy."
Quote: David--I'm not quite sure what to do with that 2 year postponed date proposal?
Uh, Betsey, if that's the case I'm thinking there is NO hope for YOU! Actually if your D was final last May, and mine will be final this Friday +/-.... well, heck, why wait two years!
But seriously, I am really relating to what Nickel was saying about just talking and being friends again. NOT feeling like you have to dissect the R everytime you talk. Course it will be a while for THAT. W has really gone into detachment mode. Pretty much avoids seeing me and since we don't have to be around to swap out the kids it's pretty easy. She kept them all day yest instead of me picking them up at 8am when I get off my midshift... Brought them to the house about 7:15pm and didn't even come in, pulled in, they got out, got there stuff and off she went. If I had to write the scenario... I'd say that's how it will be for at least a couple of months after the D is final. She has said she wants to date, etc... But then again I think she's going to find that most guys in their mid 40's are cruising for something she isn't looking for!!! And they'll move on pretty quick. Or they are really screwed up in the head when it comes to R's like OM (VB or Virgin Boy!) was.
So I don't have to go back and read 4600 (!) posts... what was the Reader's Digest vers. of your sitch? And where do things stand know w/ XH??? Any possibility of a R? What has changed for the better in your R w/ X? Anything?
David--I think many would chime in and say there's no hope for me. I'll take that as a compliment! Any chance we went to HS together? (I grew up in Northern VA...)
You don't have time to read 3 years of material? What's wrong with you? Seriously, I don't know if there's a reader's digest version of my story... I'm not one for short cuts.
My XH and I have 2 girls, and we're as good friends as one could possibly be post-D. We can "hang out" with one another alone or with friends, we get along well, and I do consider him a friend. I know that if I'm in trouble, he's there to help me out.
I grow weary of asking for that help, though...
I take it you mean a possibility of a R with him? Nope. Been there, done that and I don't want the t-shirt. There's too much water under the bridge, and I really don't fancy myself banging my head against a wall trying to get a depressed man to admit that he might feel better if he would do something about it.
But on a happy note, he's a great dad and I can't imagine being divorced from a better guy. I say that tongue in cheek, but he'd laugh if he saw this. He gave me a generous gift card to Borders for Mother's Day and happily told me yesterday that I'm an awesome mother. I thanked him and then he helped me move some furniture.
We started out by avoiding each other as well. It took a lot of effort on my part to work on my feelings about what he had done and who he had become. But, at the back of my mind, I knew that if we stood any chance whatsoever of reconciling, I'd have to deal with those things and more. So I accepted the self-assigned challenge and have never looked back.
I'm not sorry for my path, and I mean that. It was extremely painful, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. However, I became the person I wanted to become... and someone who feels happy that the lessons are well worth it.
Got to run... take care!
Betsey
p.s. AJ--I'm still a little stunned after reading your updates.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Nickel, what you wrote was interesting. If I understand correctly, you're saying that initially, the LBS is in "save" mode and mostly words to reestablish (hence the awful R talks that you would DIE without, etc), words to rebuild the connection, the committment? But, slow action. Whereas, the WAS is about seeing ACTION, b/c words, at that point, mean little and seem manipulative (as, you pointed out wisely, they HAVE tried again and again in the past with no avail).
If I'm correct in understanding, it's true in my M. At first, I just wanted H to SAY how he felt, his level of committment, etc, as if he was a barometer that I should get a reading on each moment. BUT, though I knew action was important, I was too focused (in panic) on reading the barometer. Not seeing how my actions AFFECTED the barometer, and how that meant more, not my testaments of love I shouted at H to get it through (ugh, the mistakes).
Rather, now, I find myself in a position, out of protection, where I miss the action progress in H just b/c I don't hear the words. YET, he has been quite observant and responsive, in a good way, to my actions.
Confusing? It is. But, perhaps we're after, deep down inside the real thing, but need to validate in different ways?
Ya know, Nickel, that is part of what I do not understand in my situation. WAS did speak of problems...but they were always problems I had. In the emotional state I was in, I knew I needed help, but much of the reason I did not seek it was because XH didn't think I needed help...I just needed to put my mind to it and I could do "it" if I wanted to. I just didn't want to, according to him, and thus he could not live with me any longer. Long story, most of which is recorded in the Land of Oz ad nauseum. Suffice it to say, I was experiencing those wonderful hormonal changes, a close brush with my mortality after a ruptured appendix I ignored for nine days, a bipolar friend who committed suicide, and panic/anxiety attacks multiple times a day. I wanted to ask for his help but thought I knew what the answer would be and thus ended up doing the best I could until he walked out. Son talked me into seeing neurotherapist and I was diagnosed with ADHD. Adderall has changed my world...and, the influence was immediate. So, within the first 30 days I took action and I tried to let him be the one to initiate calls or e-mails. However, we were in the process of a major move...so I changed gears and sorted and packed individually.
At any rate...he did not or says he did not see any change in me. So, maybe it was never MLC....seemed like it, started the gym, lost weight, new clothes, new friends, new red truck, etc.
I guess the good part for me is although I miss him still and I miss our family, I'm moving in my own direction. Any contact we have is initiated by him. I've been VERY honest with whatever he has asked. I leave it at that. I guess he just figured too little, too late...but in all honesty his attitude had a lot to do with why I didn't seek out help before.
Always--Your insights are helpful, and I can see that you've done a lot of work since your own path began.
Quote: Rather, now, I find myself in a position, out of protection, where I miss the action progress in H just b/c I don't hear the words.
Words are only half of any communication, and I've been guilty of choosing mine so carefully that I could orchestrate an outcome. That's why it's so important to pay closer attention to behaviors. They tend to model the truth...
I used to want to force words. Only, I found that I wouldn't get the words I wanted (yes, I was the ultimate crazymaker). Now I choose to sit in silence and wait for the truth to emerge--in actions and behaviors. It takes some willpower (especially in the beginning) to force yourself to sit quietly and rearrange thoughts so that you're not feeding off of someone else... and once you learn to feed yourself without needing another person, that's when you tap into your own power. It's an awesome shift, but it just takes some time and lots of patience. You're getting there!
Hey Glenda!
Quote: At any rate...he did not or says he did not see any change in me. So, maybe it was never MLC....seemed like it, started the gym, lost weight, new clothes, new friends, new red truck, etc.
See above commentary on words. In my earlier days--when I chose to see Mr. Wonderful as a person who was "less than" I would do the same thing... not only withhold praise, but emote negativity. It forced him to respond negatively and then we engaged with each other in an unhealthy fashion.
Don't think for a moment that you're the only one who's been part of this unfortunate dynamic. It's just part of a long term dance that I bet most of us were unaware would have catastrophic results. Bet you and I can tell them immediately in others, though.
Quote: I guess he just figured too little, too late...but in all honesty his attitude had a lot to do with why I didn't seek out help before.
Boy, is there ever a lesson in paying attention to things because they're right and not because of what anyone else is saying or thinking...
And I'm reminded of something that was present in the past and is seemingly true in the present as well...
Not terribly long ago, one of the thermometers I used in detecting Mr. Wonderful's happiness factor was through photographs. I happened to be the family photographer, and would take pictures of the girls with or without him. In the latter years of our M, the pictures became a silent warning bell for me--because his face clearly showed the anger and unhappiness he was feeling inside. When I asked him why his face reflected those things, he denied. "You just caught me when D9 was doing X." Or, I turned around when I was talking to someone else... all things I chose to dismiss but knew deep down inside were telling me what I needed to know.
I knew this, but allowed his words to convince me to remain silent.
I'd long forgotten this... I hardly ever take pictures anymore, mostly because I realize that they capture the souls of the people I'm with, and at some level, it bothers me. (Yikes! I need to do something with this now!)
However, I grabbed my digital camera on Friday afternoon to capture my D9 in her goggles and motorcycle helmet as she climbed on the back seat of her dad's new Gold Wing. I'd been promising my family pictures of her... So I instructed Mr. Wonderful to pose as well. I looked through the lens and was VERY discouraged at the vision in front of me:
My D9, grinning from ear to ear--just happier than a pig in sh!t to be where she was--and her dad, who was wearing a scowl. The only thing I could think, I managed to say aloud, "Geez, Mr. W.! You're sitting on a gorgeous bike with a chick who is absolutely beaming with joy, and all you can muster is a scowl? Can you PLEASE smile for me?"
He managed a weak smile that didn't go to his eyes, but I captured it anyway. They drove off, with D9 waving, and left me standing in the driveway watching them go.
You know what I thought? Well, I'll tell you...
I thought to myself, "All those years you knew he was unhappy and he lied. The camera doesn't lie. Aren't you just the happiest person now, not having to be married to such an unhappy man?" I answered myself with a big, genuine smile, "YEAH! Right on!"
Never again will I allow others to have such a say in how I lead my life or heal. Those who love me will care enough to listen and offer suggestions when I need it and/or want it. The others don't get past the sentry at the gate to my heart and soul.
So the lesson for me was to take back my power. I actually think it's a lesson nearly all of us have had to learn (or should consider).
Back to work! Hugs to all...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: Never again will I allow others to have such a say in how I lead my life or heal. Those who love me will care enough to listen and offer suggestions when I need it and/or want it. The others don't get past the sentry at the gate to my heart and soul.
UD--thanks for the analysis and notice of progress!
I remember, not long ago, the days of my Inquisition Style questioning, asking questions in 20 different ways to get answers and actually giving value to the answers in my mind, not realizing that anything that coerced is not really genuine. Ahhhhhh.
I sat and let my emotions settle and realized that I KNOW H, how he was and how expressive he was in his love for me at one time, many times. I KNOW that he is not incapable of that. So, I just let it go. Quietly, patiently. And ya know, he started opening up, talking, with sincerity and authenticity, for the first time I felt safe in believing him and not the pack of lies that usually comes from his mouth.
All in all, if I know that if I have to ask, it's not gonna be an answer that is sincere, truthful, so why seek that? I'd rather wait for the truth. I also realize that those kind of questions, about guaging emotions, are inherently "loaded" with only 1 type of response that's acceptable. "Do you love me?" Well, that's a set up. That's aggravating to H...b/c it's not about emotions anyway, it's about the behaviors that caused the emotional shifts. It's not about whether he loves me or wants to be with me and the percentage shifts in each desire, but rather the behaviors and issues that drive the emotions.
So, one step at a time, in our own ways, we're seeing how to get there.
Betsey