Any hope after divorce???

[Just_Me]

Now now Dogma and Gabe, no fighting on my thread.

Actually the discussion is fine. I think that you are somewhat jaded Dogma. But I don't think your attitude is wrong. You are divorced from your wife, you're not looking for signs or raising your hopes, but if things should develop then they develop, but you're not holding your breath. That's fine. I would probably take the same tact. Like you I know I wasn't the most terrible of husbands...but unlike you I realize that my wife is entitled to her opinions about me and our marriage. She doesn't feel like she's in love. If I was the one not in love I wouldn't want to be married either, even if she was a good woman.

I want to address this:

A few days of silence then a request for a lunch date? Hmmm, sounds a bit extreme in terms of going dark then requesting intimacy. Maybe see how this experiment goes, then try to sit tight a bit longer, working on yourself, and pursuing interests that you may have set aside for a while?

Possibly extreme, but my attitude is this: I am already separated and possibly headed for divorce, there is nothing worse going to come of going to lunch with my wife. Essentially my attitude is "what do I have to lose". I will keep it light and if that still has a negative impact then I won't ask again. But if you remember from early on in this thread...going dark was perceived by my wife as more of the same. I'm just rolling the dice. I'll let you know. Wish me luck. My attitude of the day...confident.

[dogma]

Sorry Dad,

You're right, it does appear you have little to lose in going to lunch. And maybe much to gain. She did say yes.

XW is entitled to her thoughts, opinions, beliefs, etc, it is difficult for me and for many of us I expect, to understand.

Should something ever redeveloped, who says I'm not open, I'm not sure I could open my heart again wondering if it would get kicked out my chest again. I do love her, I always will. She does not believe this.

But life must go on. Jaded, not so much as disappointed, more at myself.

Thanks guys.

write

[Just_Me]

Dogma,

I can see exactly where you are coming from. If/when I'm divorced we'll have to see how I do with it. I might be here telling people..."this is a waste of time...don't get your hopes up"

Okay, the update. Just got back from lunch. She was visibly nervous. I asked how she was doing and she indicated she wasn't sure. Another bad sign. But I did great. It couldn't have went better if scripted. I suspected she was worried we'd have R talk and I was very good about steering the conversation to her interests. It was a good conversation. When things got slow for a moment I asked about her law plans and how to go about it. There was a point I did do more of the same when I was disagreeing with her about something, but I did listen really well for the most part.

It left off with me asking about her weekend plans and her kind of uncomfortably asking if I wanted to split the lunch bill. That part wasn't good. Overall I think we left better than we started.

Okay, now for the real dilemma. More of the same would be for me to spend time with my kids doing fun stuff and ignoring her. If she doesn't leave town I'm sorely tempted to ask her if she wants to skate with us or go to a show with us. I know....pursuing. But look at it from her perspective...."here's this guy that loves me so much that he ignores me in favor of his kids...only wants me around when they aren't". I'll think it over tonight and weigh what you guys suggest.

[koshka]

Hope,

Go back to the basics. "Darkness" wasn't helping. Experiment and monitor the results, then do more of what works and less (a lot less) of what doesn't.

Continue to steer clear of the R talk, and you'll do fine.

Thanks,

K

[Just_Me]

I didn't have to answer the question. My wife went out of town to see a friend this weekend (or at least I presume so). I did leave a message for her before I knew she was out of town telling her if she was lonely or bored this weekend feel free to go biking or skating with us.

That's it. Nothing else new, just enjoying my kids this weekend.

Bye

[Libra]

Hi Wes. I just want to comment on a couple things. You said that you haven't got anything to lose by asking her to lunch and it didn't go great, not bad, but certainly not what I'd consider to be working. Then, you called to ask her if 'she gets bored or lonely' she is welcome to join you and the kids for an outing.

Sorry for the slap that's coming your way, but are you crazy? If my H gave me an invite based on me being bored or lonely, I wouldn't even think about going and he's the walk away! Accepting that invite would be admitting boredom or lonliness. You've got to think about how you say things before you say them.

Perhaps you feel that you're so close to D, you don't need to monitor, and weigh your words, and allow your actions to speak, but you do!

So, you can sit back and think that you've already lost and continue on as you are OR you can slow down for a bit and think about how you can make this better. What can you do to make yourself more of a friend to her? I'm not opposed to you inviting her to family outings with your kids or both kids or whatever; just make it a friendly one. You and the kids are doing such and such, and you'd be happy if she could join you guys or whatever.

Here's the thing though, you had a so-so lunch, and a not so good invitation to spend time with you, so please lay low for a few days.

My best to you.

Geneva

[Just_Me]

Geneva,

Sorry for the slap that's coming your way, but are you crazy?

Answer: Yep.

I'm impatient, but I'm mainly tired. Tired of this. It feels way to much like playing games and being fake. I felt like having lunch with her and so I asked...she could turn me down if she didn't want to go. The weekend invite was not the best invite. Could have done without the bored and lonely part. I'll consider myself chastised.

But she did try to call this weekend and she did call last night when she got home (I wasn't there to answer any of the time). I called this morning. We had a nice convo. She had a good time in Fargo and she did say almost right away that she tried to get ahold of me. So no harm no foul with my half-a$$ed invite.

Perhaps you feel that you're so close to D, you don't need to monitor, and weigh your words, and allow your actions to speak, but you do!

I'm completely in the dark here. I have not been clearly rebuffed by my W. Interactions for the most part have been friendly. But I don't get a real strong sense that I'm making progress towards reconciliation...more towards friendship. I am struggling with the monitoring results because there have only been a few times where it was blatantly wrong.

So, you can sit back and think that you've already lost and continue on as you are OR you can slow down for a bit and think about how you can make this better. What can you do to make yourself more of a friend to her?

I don't think I have already lost. I think there is a reasonable chance that I have. That despite friendship and having changed things up for the better that her mind is made up and she will not change it. I'm doing the things that are making me more of a friend to her...she's already said we are better friends now than we have been for several years. We just talk more which is definitely an improvement and a 180. I think going dark and not contacting her for days or weeks on end will definitely cement the fact that we are not friends. But then again I could be wrong. Geneva, I honestly believe I am not moving farther away...I just don't know if I'm any closer. She still talks about a future without me in it. BUT...here's the thing...she hasn't shown me she thinks we have no future.

a) she still gets her check direct deposited in our joint acccount even though it's been three months and she certainly had the time

b) she has had the divorce paperwork for at least 6 weeks and nothing has come of it (not even mentioned for 3 weeks)

c) She still sounds like she's pleased to talk to me and doesn't sound perturbed when I call (I've heard her talk to her ex and I would definitely know what that sounded like...it's kind of a monotone with very little except yeah...okay...uh huh).

What I'm saying is I don't know if I'm moving forward, but I don't feel I'm moving backward so I don't know if I should try less interaction (more dark). I think I probably shouldn't try a whole lot more (ie lunch etc)...at least not one on one... until she makes the first move.

Did any of this make sense? Any suggestions?

[Libra]

Hi - sounds like your PMA is up today. Good. I may have misread a pp from you a few days ago, but I thought you said something like you didn't have anything to lose, so that's why I said what I did.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you do feel good about the friendship growing. That is where it has to start. Have you ever read any of COG's story? He and his W have been separated for 3 years and are such good friends now when only 2 years ago, she was not in any way looking to save the M.

So, I guess I was worried about your PMA and it's looking good now. I am all for staying in limbo for awhile as long as I'm not moving backwards. Sometimes, you've got to coast a little bit before making strides ahead. I certainly didn't mean for you to go dark for a couple days. What I meant was lay low on the invites. I don't think dark is the thing for you either. I think that you're doing good and your W is responding well most of the time.

Geneva

[Just_Me]

My PMA is up today. Your point is well taken. While I might not be taking any major steps back, the goals I've set/baby steps have not been coming about at all. I do need to consider what I can do that would help. What I would perceive as a step forward is more contact initiated by W and some physical contact.

Short term goals:
1) Wife will initiate contact, especially during 12:30 to 3:00 (the time from off work to when she picks up the kids). This is a grey area where I don't know what she's does. Calls for no purpose except to talk.

2) Physical contact of at least some form of intimate nature...hand holding, hug, kiss for starters.

3) W will discuss a future that seems to include me.

None of these goals are anything that I have control over. I can only be her friend during this period of time. I'll keep my initiated contact to a minimum until she starts initiating being together more frequently.

[Just_Me]

Hi,

It's a bad night for me and not due to anything very negative that's occurred. I picked up the rope and am now pessimistic about my chances. It just seems like I've come a long ways personally, but am going nowhere in my relationship.

So the latest saga of pursuit. I called two times after work. One to tell my W that there was free icecream at the cold stone creamery if she wanted to take the kids and the other to ask if she wanted to walk the dog at the park with me (she lives across the street from it). My crazymaker was going full blast when she said "let me know when you're out there and I'll come out"...making me wonder "what doesn't she want me to see at the apartment?" Uggghhh...stupid crazymaker.

We walked the circle and talked the whole time about a variety of stuff. It was a very good convo. Several negatives from my perspective...she indicated she was signed up for the LCAT so if she passes I suppose law school will be in her future...something that definitely doesn't include me. I did express interest but I wonder if all that says is I'm okay with her going away. I don't have any control over that so I suppose it isn't worth thinking about. The other negative...she referred to herself as the only "single" woman in the apartment complex when she was talking about some guy hitting on her. I didn't correct her about her marital status. So I guess nothing has changed in her mind. Or perhaps she sees herself more single than ever.

I left with the feeling that this is never going to work. I'll be her friend, but that's all I'll ever be again. I'm dying to call her friend she visited this weekend and ask if she thinks there is any chance for us based on their talks this weekend, but obviously I won't. I've been to this point many times....the realization that we may not be together again, but tonight felt worse because there was nothing bad about our conversation or interaction. I really felt the need tonight to be loved in return. Friendship is okay, but it's not enough. I need the whole ball of wax. I don't know if I'm patient enough.

So I'm reevaluating the things I've done, monitoring results, and looking at my goals. I don't know if what I'm doing is working. Maybe I do need more distance. Maybe good interactions followed by a long time without me would help her have time to think about us. It can't all be negative in her eyes can it?

I'm so tired of this. Tired of feeling that no matter what I do my marriage will never be salvaged.