Thanks everyone that posted and thank you very much for the kind words.
BMJB, do you suppose that your son staying with your H made it more real? Feelings that this is how it is going to be from now on?
Most days I keep my hands off that rope, but it's not always easy to avoid picking it up. I have no news, but I would like to share a quote that I think is very applicable to DB.
"The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude of life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness, or skill. It will make or break a company, a church, a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for the day. We cannot change our past, we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way, and we cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you...we are in charge of our attitudes"
Charles Swindoll
My attitude for today....happy and content and thankful for what I do have.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I'm sorry to hear of your H getting his own place. I thought I'd write the following to see if it helps you:
1. View it as just a building. Buildings can be sold etc. It's people that make your R's, not buildings. If you reconcile, you can sell it and get a different one.
2. It might give you more space to decide what you want from your M.
3. If you are on friendly terms (I don't know your sitch) you could even get him a 'congratulations on your new house' card and buy him some stuff for the house so that when you go there, some of 'your' things are there and you won't feel so out of place. I did this before I went dark and bought my H a new chrome kettle to match his other kitchen stuff. His wardrobe was the one I had bought him a previous Christmas, most of my books were on his shelves including ones I wrote myself. It really helped. It may not apply if you're nasty to each other or barely civil though, as can happen after break up.
4. Think of it as just a transition place for him until he finds his way back. My H asked me to work with him prior to me going dark, so I did do, 2 days per week at his house. I had a photo of me on 'my' desk and my name on the login of his computer. This helped too, as it made his place feel like mine as well. Obviously this wouldn't apply to you but if you develop a friendship it may do in future.
5. Try to see the advantages of 2 houses. When he has your son, you get peace and quiet and to do what you want.
You have somewhere else to go 'for coffee' should you develop a friendship. If you re-kindle a R, which is possible, you can have a 'love nest' at his place. I got pregnant at my H's place
If you ever move back in together at some point in the future, you will have 2 of eveything (i.e 2 washing machines, 2 vaccums, 2 beds etc) so you can have a massive garden party and sell tons of stuff and either buy new stuff to celebrate your union or go on a cruise
Remember the only thing you can't reverse is death and the largest obstacle is your mind. It isn't over until you give up and even then it might not be because mine wanted me when I gave up.
Although I cannot fully appreciate what you are saying at the moment because I am crying and feeling downright awful, I can see the possibilities your described. It isn't like we hate each other. It is just a little uncomfortable. I have spent almost my entire adult life with this man and to go from what I thought was bliss to this is just about more than I can take. Some days are better than others. Some days I really believe I could make it through even if he didn't come home. But then there are days like today when I feel it would be easier if I walked outside and got hit by a bus. But in spite of all this wallowing in self-pity, I will get through it. Thanks again, M
I remember the feeling vividly and of standing outside while the removal men came to take away half of my furniture.
I was so hysterical my MIL took me to the supermarket for a cup of tea to calm down.
But believe me, as painful as this is, he will not want you as long as you are depressed and not wanting to live without him.
He wants you to love him because you want him, not because you NEED him. There's a difference.
He wants you to be the confident and sexy person he fell in love with, and people who want to kill themselves aren't sexy, they're dependent. Believe me, I was suicidal so I know. It is the reason I'm divorced and the reason why it took so long to reconcile anything with my H.
As soon as I genuinely started living for myself and not NEEDING him, he found he needed me and he likes the new me without depression.
I know it doesn't help much at this time, but a PMA really does make a difference to the outcome.
Glanced through some of your past posts. I am convinced the WAW's go to a school. So many of their actions, words, behavior is verbatim.
Once they have reached a point where they leave or want a D, many, many decisions have been made without you. And yes, D seems like the only solution. They have convinced themselves they have "tried" when in fact, they have not. Your spouse did a lot more in considering counseling than mine did. She quit and she wanted out, similar to you.
They cannot offer a good reason tangible reason, because it is all about them. I told people I could understand a D if I beat the wife or children, or stayed out all night, or wasted money or time, etc, but I was a GREAT husband. Stayed home with the boys when they were younger, did housework, involved in family activities, etc. But it turns out, she viewed me as the guy who took care of the kids.
It is cliched and you are sick of hearing, as I was, but you have to take care of yourself. And that probability of less than %20 of X spouses who return means there is an greater than %80 chance they do not. I think once the decisions are made, there is no turning back. They do not want to admit they were wrong and the decision whether to be in an R and have to deal with shared responsiblities or live a single life and not have to worry about being accountable to another person, is in their mind an easy decision.
Here is a post of mine I found from June of 04 and I think it bears repeating. I know I needed to read it AGAIN.
Greetings all,
I am a short timer here. My WAW moved out in Mar after the "bomb" hit in Dec. Is she coming back to me and three children to revive an M of 11 years?
I do not know and I do not care.
In my short tenure in this marathon of marital and spouse struggles and reading the bb, I've formed a few conclusions of my own I would like to share.
DISCLAIMER. These opinions in NO way represent Michele, the moderators, other posters, the bb, and any resemblance to any person living or dead is purely coincidental.
1. There are NO magic answers. Sorry, all you newcomers who arrive seeking the magic potion to revive the spouse and marriage; there is NONE.
2. I will not repeat the standard DB methodology here. The odds are you have had it drilled into your head ad naseum. FOLLOW IT. If only for you own sanity.
3. The WAS does NOT give a darn about what you are doing, so quit worrying over what they are doing. You CANNOT control their actions, beliefs, thoughts, etc.
4. Quit pushing. Quit hoping something will happen NOW, TODAY. It will not, unless you keep pursuing, then you can almost guarantee the outcome and it will not be the one you seek.
5. Relax. Exercise. Walk. Run. Play a sport. Ride your bike. Chase your kids. Take ALL the energy you are wasting WORRYING over your spouses actions and how your actions affect the spouse and put it into something you control.
6. Find a new balance. When the spouse quit on the family and the relationship, the dynamic swung violently out of balance. Find a new center. Focus on you, the children, the dog, something besides the old dynamic.
7. The previous M or R is deceased. Quit digging it up and examining it and trying to breath life into the lifeless form. Start a new R, hopefully with your spouse. But the old R has to die or you will be right back where you are now.
8. Quit taking blame. You are 100% responsible for your 50% ONLY. You contributed to this, but you did not do this. The spouse is being selfish and cares ONLY about themselves. Remember that.
9. It is ok to be sad, angry, frustrated, bitter, confused, and all the other emotions churning around. Find a time or place and experience the emotion. Do not deny it, but do not let it control you. And do not let the spouse see it.
10. Be positive. Be upbeat. Again, if only for your own sanity. Fake yourself out. Self-fulfilling prophecy. This goes right to "act as if." You will feel better and it will become second nature.
11. You may not get your spouse back and guess what, you may reach a point where you may not want them back. You are in control of your R and your life now. ENJOY.
Dogma, thanks for your old thoughts. They are helpful (if less than reassuring given the outcome).
Quote: . The WAS does NOT give a darn about what you are doing, so quit worrying over what they are doing. You CANNOT control their actions, beliefs, thoughts, etc.
I suffer from this. It's intermittent but I do wonder what she is doing, thinking etc. Mainly I wonder when all is silent between us whether she is even considering me/us. I guess you'd have to find a WAW that came back to answer that question.
Quote: Quit pushing. Quit hoping something will happen NOW, TODAY. It will not, unless you keep pursuing, then you can almost guarantee the outcome and it will not be the one you seek.
Again, good advice. The difficulty is what is pursuing/pushing? I know the blatant stuff like talking about the R, asking her what she's feeling/thinking, asking her to come back. I don't do any of that. My fine line is if I ask her to do something and she accepts is it pushing?
I'll find that answer out today. After Wednesday and Thursday of silence I finally broke the silence by calling her. Yeah, I know...some would say let it fester longer. "If she wanted to talk or be around me she'd call or something." Maybe I should have let it go longer. I asked her if she wanted to grab some lunch or a coffee when she's off work. She said "we could", but there was a moment of silence. Not a great sign and in retrospect maybe I shouldn't have asked. My intention is to use this time to listen to what's going on with her life and just communicate. No R talk. I sincerely hope she doesn't bring up anything. I had my doubts about this lunch date, but I'll experiment and monitor results. It is the first one on one we've done in quite a while.
Quote: The previous M or R is deceased. Quit digging it up and examining it and trying to breath life into the lifeless form. Start a new R, hopefully with your spouse. But the old R has to die or you will be right back where you are now.
Yep, agree wholeheartedly. I don't want that old R back anyway. But when and how do you start trying to make a new R? I think about it like this...(but maybe it's too soon to do so)...if this was a woman I just met but was attracted to how would I get her to at least entertain the possibility of a R with me? The first dates with anyone are usually at least somewhat uncomfortable, but you can't get comfortable with someone until you've had those first dates. I don't think my W and I got comfortable around each other for at least 6 weeks (we lived 200 miles apart so that would be like 6 dates). But you can't start a R with someone new by ignoring them completely and hoping they take interest. If I was really interested in a woman I knew, but I never asked her out, she probably wouldn't be thinking about me or entertaining a relationship. So this is a long way of saying...I have to have dates with my W even if it's uncomfortable and even if I have to initiate it. But I'll intersperse these rare dates with times of grey. How's that sound to anyone. Am I justifying pursuing behavior? It's only pursuing if the other person percieves it as such. I'll let you know.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Yes, you are pursuing and justifying, unfortunately it is understandable.
No, a woman you wanted to date would not know you were thinking about her unless you intiated something. Again, unfortunate, but this woman already knows you or at least knows you from her perspective and if she wanted to date you or have an R, then there would likely be no S or D.
Her pause was likely her rethinking her yes and also wondering if her going out with you, would it give you some false hope. And the answer is probably yes, because those who are hurt tend to jump on anything.
How not to pursue and yet stay in contact? Ah, a continuing paradox?
If we knew this, we would sit behind the big desk and people would pay big money to talk to us.
I can tell you I am no longer married, but I do not call her unless it involves the children or schedules. She calls daily to talk the children, sometimes more than once a day. Do I question to myself her sometimes weird reasons for calling? Absolutely. Does this change anything? No.
Maybe go back to Michelle's theory of projecting a positive outcome. And try not to overthink the problem, this will make you crazy.
Hey there Hope, A few days of silence then a request for a lunch date? Hmmm, sounds a bit extreme in terms of going dark then requesting intimacy. Maybe see how this experiment goes, then try to sit tight a bit longer, working on yourself, and pursuing interests that you may have set aside for a while?
Dogma wrote:
Quote: I could understand a D if I beat the wife or children, or stayed out all night, or wasted money or time, etc, but I was a GREAT husband. Stayed home with the boys when they were younger, did housework, involved in family activities, etc. But it turns out, she viewed me as the guy who took care of the kids.
I don't quite buy this, Dogma. This is way too passive of a stance for me. We all contribute to our M problems, even in the most extreme of cases. So you were responsible for some of the M demise, and you did have flaws as an H. It isn't until we face this flaws and work very hard to improve ourselves in these areas of weakness that we truly have a chance to win our WAS back.
Quote: And that probability of less than %20 of X spouses who return means there is an greater than %80 chance they do not. I think once the decisions are made, there is no turning back. They do not want to admit they were wrong and the decision whether to be in an R and have to deal with shared responsiblities or live a single life and not have to worry about being accountable to another person, is in their mind an easy decision.
Dogma, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think most of this is nonsense! This is just mere parroting of society's view that things are cut-and-dry easy or impossible. Reality is and humans are so much more complex than this. Most of us have directly experienced the waffling on the part of our WAS or seen their pain. This is typically not an 'easy decision' nor is there 'no turning back' once a decision is put forward. Most humans want to be connected to or loved by another. Its up to us to demonstrate an abilty to provide that better than we did in the past and than anyone else can do in the present/future. This won't be true or possible until we focus on ourselves and learn how to self-love in a consistent, effective manner.
Yes I am entitled to MY opinion; the beauty of this country and these boards.
A parrot? Nonsense? Nice touch.
Yes, I am responsible for 100% of my 50% of the R. Was it perfect? Far from it. Was it miserable as some would like to believe? I do not think so. And could I have been or can I be a better partner in the future. Absolutely.
I think we tend to make life more complex than it really needs to be. Decisions are often far easier than we make them.
But the reality is, it is about each of us and our decisions as individuals and how they affect our lives.
