Sorry you had to hear about the dancing. I'm sure that would trigger some emotions in me as well. Yet you are exactly right.
Quote: The thinking part of me actually says it doesn't really matter. She needs to come after me anyway...not visa-versa.
You interpreted her opening your phone bill well, IMO.
Quote: I did notice that of all my mail that my wife brought in the house the only piece she opened was MY cell phone bill.
She's trying to get you to chase or reassure with interest. You're doing a nice job of detaching and letting her curiousity get the better of her. Stay positive, Hope!
I need some perspective here. I can't seem to figure out what works and what doesn't.
A quick preface to events/interactions prior to last night: some good contact on Friday before I left to swim meet. W seemed genuinely pleased to see me and made nice offer to take the van instead of my car which is running crappy. Saturday...e-mail interaction and small phone interaction. Neither seemed that great. Sunday...a few phone interactions...again she was tired, but interactions not great. Heard about the dancing and may have sounded jealous (probably did). Monday...no interaction during the morning. Quick call by me in afternoon that wasn't negative but I felt like I was bugging her.
That leads up to last night. My W called and was mainly silent at first...then brought up the "I'm going over D papers." She said she was confused about everything...but mainly talked about HER future. Not an US future. She just thinking about what she'll do for a full time job and she also was seriously debating going back to school. She says she'll kick herself if later she finds she should have pursued her dream.
During the convo she was nervous I would take talk about D badly. I told her I was okay with divorce if that's what was best for us. I didn't think I did terribly before, but I guess enough so that she was worried it would hurt me. She indicated that we were better friends now than we had been in a long time...a point I seconded. That is definitely true and I said that I felt that was one big problem we had in the marriage...we forgot how to be friends. I also indicated I thought successful marriages needed a good friendship as the base. She said she was worried that she'd ruin the friendship.
She also said she was confused...I asked if she wanted me to come over to talk. She said "I don't know". I don't think so.
Then she told me going to law school was her dream and she'd kick herself if she looked back with regret about not going. I told her to go for it...that she has my support. And she does, even though it means she'll be 300 miles away and it will probably kill our marriage and maybe our friendship. I'd love to find a way to have her and also have her go to school. Some possibilities come to mind, but they mainly include us together as a couple again and me being able to get a job if I move. Then worrying about leaving my kids behind. It's a very sticky and difficult situation. After that portion of the convo she said "maybe you should come over." So I did.
Actually when I got over there we didn't renew this portion of the talk. She told me about some guy groping her when she was dancing. I listened but did say I was uncomfortable with my W off dancing being single. That was probably my weakest moment. I clearly sounded jealous.
She said "so we're done having a friendly discussion?" and I said no, it's okay. I said it sounded like fun and we haven't went dancing like that for a long time. She said that's part of why she was dancing so much. I indicated that we should have made more time for each other to do those things. She didn't think that was the problem. That if the other problems hadn't been there it would have been okay not to go out. I said that I know. I wish there hadn't been those issues, that I wished I had listened when she told me about them, and that in ways it was good this happened because it gave me a chance to look at the things I didn't like about myself and change them. She still doesn't express complaints about the marriage in more than vague terms.
My S-D came in so that part of the D ended. The rest of the time was okay. I spent time with her in her bedroom looking at some pics of her vacation, talking about the website she likes to visit, and chitchat about the swim meet. Left on a good note.
So that ends the night. Today I feel good. But I'm confused. Last night and this morning I felt like what she needed was more friends type interaction rather than darkness. We are comfortable in each other's presence for the most part and could easily do activities as just friends. Of note...the only time she brings up D is after I've been kind of dark. In between it doesn't seem to come up. When it does come up the conversation has lately gone really well without hard feelings, anger, or a lot of expressed sadness. And it usually has involved me in some form expressing that things would be different. I know LRT says no R talk if possible, but I don't think that ours have gone badly. The last couple times she hasn't appeared or expressed discomfort. But I don't talk about "being back together" with certainty or express a future together, just "if we were back together...or if we're ever together again"
Anybody got a take on this? What I want to do is find things to do together as friends or at least walk the dog together. As a friend on here pointed out...it's only pursuing if the spouse percieves it that way. Little doses at a time? Or should I continue to wait for her to initiate? Friends do spend time together. And I want to...a) because I like our time together b) I want to give the friendship aspect more time to grow c) make it as difficult as possible for her to make the decision to divorce d) enjoy what may be my bit of time together with her and her kids. If I only have a summer left with them in the same town I want to make the most of it that she will comfortably let me.
Okay...I'll end this monster note. I would appreciate input.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I just saw what a huge post that was. Looks like Koshka.
One small added note: I just finished reading Akron29's thread. He was clear at divorce papers then went very dark and let her go and let her know it. Things went good from there and they are back together...if still piecing. It's got me thinking. Obviously we each need to think what's best for our individual situations. I could increase slightly the number of "friendly" get togethers and if that doesn't work or she pushes the D, then help her realize her fears that she will lose her friend. THoughts?? SUggestions? Abusive comments??? Ridicule??
Have a good one everybody
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I just had to post because I noticed so many positives in your situation. It seems that your hard work is starting to change things for the better.
I think you should work very hard at not pursuing. Wife is beginning to get comfortable with you, and you don't want to frighten her away. I can totally see how things are getting better between you and you think more interactions like this can only create more positives. In my own situation, I would often mess up things when they started to look better. I would get all excited and overwhelmed by getting closer to H and want more and more of the interaction. I would then start pursuing. Eventually, I learned to clearly notice that this behavior made H very uncomfortable. I have gotton good at getting close to H and then backing off and letting him digest everything that happened. I also remember when it was getting close to my divorce being filed, I began to come onto H like gangbusters. You have to be real careful to not confuse your panic about the divorce being finalized with a sincere desire of being a better friend to her.
You have so many positives and you need to reread your post when you start to second guess your situation.
I agree that very, very, very little tiny doses of pursuing that are perceived as kindness can be a good thing, however; I think wife could freak on you and think you are trying to manipulate the situation and force her to stop the divorce. I would tread very carefully in this arena. Your wife sounds to be on the brink of not knowing what to do. Her confusion is such a good thing for you. You don't want to scare her and make her jump.
Plus, if she decides to go through with the divorce, let her be even more confused when your friendships with her grows more and more. She is having a tough internal war and you want it to get tougher and tougher. Don't give her any reason to think she is making the right decision by divorcing. Don't give her any reason to think you might be just manipulating her.
When should your divorce be final? How much time do you think you have.
About her going away to law school and you worried about her moving. Try real hard not to get to ahead of yourself. Start to think about things on a day to day basis. Looking that far into the future is just going to overwhelm you. You need to validate wife's feeling about going away to law school and try not put your own dreams into her plan. So much can happen between now and the time she moves away if she even does. Help wife pursue her dreams by encouraging her. Applying to law school is a long process. She isn't going to just get into law school and move away overnight. I think you are getting way ahead of yourself in this situation. I am applying to a similar graduate program and I have been preparing myself since this summer when I made the decision to apply. If I do get into the program, I won't start school for another year and a half. I would do the same thing you are doing and worry about all the details of the future. Everything is now starting to fall into place just perfectly. Things will work themselves out so try to just concentrate on one problem at a time.
I just wanted to say that I see a lot of positives happening for you. Enjoy the good that is starting to happen and stay focused on living just today the best you can.
Thanks for stopping by. I really appreciate the input. Very helpful comments. You are right...I was getting the cart way in front of the horse. Nothing is going to happen too quickly. And it is very easy to justify why I should interact more. I need brakes on my brain.
You know...I don't know about how long I have. She hasn't filled out her paperwork. So it might not even get to that point. I'm actually not real scared of divorce. It isn't any different than what I have now, except there is a piece of paper saying I'm no longer married. If she does get the divorce rolling though it will be quick. We've agreed on all the details and have no kids together. It really could sail through quickly. At this point I've told her several times that should the papers come I won't try to drag it out...I'll figure that's what she thinks is best. Which is true...I've accepted that possibility.
Anyway, your post does help me. I was debating flying to see a friend this weekend and then last night and today I thought I should stay here and see if my wife and kids wanted to catch a movie. Now I'm thinking I should go away this weekend. It will do me good to see an old friend.
Hope
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Good! I am glad I could help. I went back and read more of your thread and saw what Sage had posted to you about how going too dark can send mixed signals. Her advice was really great. She is an inspiration. I love her posts.
I agree that going dark can send mixed signals, however; I think you have to be really strong to do this without getting your own wants wrapped up into what spouse wants. This was just too hard of a fence to walk so I just decided to lean on the side of going dark. For me, I had more positive results when I just went dark when the going got tough. Now that I am stronger and have built more trust between me and H, I can tread very slightly and show just a little bit of pursuing. What changed so I knew it was OK to do this? My intentions have changed. I truly want what is best for H and am less selfish about getting my own needs met. This took a long time though and I am NOT there completely. I would say I am there 10% if I had to put a number on it. When I say I can pursue just a little, I mean just a little. It is like I throw it out there and then take it away and don't throw it out there for another two weeks or longer. I also try to remember that H is also busy doing a lot of growing and changing, and I have to give him space to do this.
I have to tell you a story that shows how far we all have probably all come. When our divorce was first filed a year and a half ago, H thought he had made a mistake by filing for the divorce two months into it. I went dark after one week of begging because I was so shocked about what he had done. I didn't talk to him for about a month and a half. Of course, he was having second doubts after my going dark. Well, right away, I jumped on this first sign of interest. I demanded that he make a decision because I wanted my life back the way it was (of course, that was the last thing he ever wanted). I was piling marriage counseling books on his doorstep. I was a lunatic. He would tell me he was still thinking about things. I called one day and demanded a decision. He told me to give him two hours so he could sit at his desk, do nothing but "think" and make a decision about whether to call off the divorce. To me this sounded insane. I thought how is sitting at your desk for two hours and just thinking going to help you. I also thought, who the heck wants to sit and "think" for two hours. I called him after an hour and said, "well, are your getting close to a decision." Of course he was frustrated by my phone call. Looking back, the whole scenario was comical. After two hours, he called me back and matter of factly said, "I thought about it and my answer is no." I actually was crazy enough to think he might say yes. I laugh out loud when I look back at my behavior and even his. We were such idiots!
I know you probably were never as bad as this, however; I thought you would have a good laugh. Plus, I might have boosted your ego by helping you realize you could always be worse off.
I think going away for the weekend is a good idea. This will give wife time to digest everything that is scrambling through her head. Even Sage has said that if you don't know what to do, do nothing. I have found that when H and I don't speak or have contact he starts to remember the good times we used to have. As long as your wife knows the divorce is not something you want, I think giving her space is a good thing.
Quote: Of note...the only time she brings up D is after I've been kind of dark. In between it doesn't seem to come up.
So, can you view this as w possibly waving the white flag that your "kind of dark" approach is too much for her to comfortably handle?
In the school of "do what gets you closer to your goals", if your assessment is accurate...going "kind of dark" leads to D talk from your w.
THAT doesn't sound particularly positive.
Quote: Then she told me going to law school was her dream and she'd kick herself if she looked back with regret about not going. I told her to go for it...that she has my support.
Perhaps she should talk to my h! (After the bomb dropped and he quit his job, he was reintroduced to his dream of going to law school...he's almost 2/3rds of the way thru!).
What would it take to make this happen? Can you start out by encouraging w to talk about "the dream" (her OWN dream?) even more? Ask her "what kind of law intrigues you?" or something of that ilk.
I KNOW it's hard to have those conversations when inside you want to scream "but what about me? us?" but if you can tolerate listening to the ambiguity and uncertainty, I think you will gain closeness.
Quote: I said it sounded like fun and we haven't went dancing like that for a long time. She said that's part of why she was dancing so much. I indicated that we should have made more time for each other to do those things. She didn't think that was the problem. That if the other problems hadn't been there it would have been okay not to go out. I said that I know. I wish there hadn't been those issues, that I wished I had listened when she told me about them, and that in ways it was good this happened because it gave me a chance to look at the things I didn't like about myself and change them. She still doesn't express complaints about the marriage in more than vague terms.
So...I'm sure I've asked this and you've answered...what SPECIFIC things are you doing to address the issues that w is referring to in your M?
When I created my DB goals each time, I tried to focus on three things:
1. one goal to bring about positive interactions in the here and now
2. one goal to specifically address an issue in the m
3. one goal for me -- my learning, my pma
I think you've got plenty of positives to work with here...I think you know my view but I'll restate...you CAN interact with w in a way that is NOT pursuing but that in no way resembles the "dark" that seems to confuse her so.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: I think going away for the weekend is a good idea. This will give wife time to digest everything that is scrambling through her head. Even Sage has said that if you don't know what to do, do nothing. I have found that when H and I don't speak or have contact he starts to remember the good times we used to have. As long as your wife knows the divorce is not something you want, I think giving her space is a good thing.
Hope, I missed the discussion about going away for the weekend...are you going? is she?
You can certainly go away and not have it be perceived as "dark" -- iow, if she knows you're going, if she knows you're going alone (or with same sex friends), if she knows you're not looking to recreate the single life...all of those things shine a bit of light on the "darkness". You don't have to go crazy with the reassurances, just let her know casually that you're going away and it's aboveboard.
all this may be moot since I don't even know what trip is being discussed!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Perhaps she should talk to my h! (After the bomb dropped and he quit his job, he was reintroduced to his dream of going to law school...he's almost 2/3rds of the way thru!).