Quote: Sex is important to me, but by and large, the lack of sex has been her[/] choice.
I disagree with this. I'd say sex isn't important to you. You have 12 years of no sex, and 16 years of some sex to prove it. You complain a lot. So I'd say you like complaining. But I would not say that you like sex.
Quote: What expectations do I have that are causing me problems? Am I wrong to expect to have sexual relations with my W?
I'd say you expect lots of things. Expecting is great. But it gets you no where. If I told you I expect to win the gold medal in the 100M dash, and then I told you I used to be a pretty fast runner in high school, I occassionally run now, and who needs to work out? My body is fine the way it is... you and everyone else here would laugh my gold medal expectations off the board.
Quote: I understand that it’s my choice to stay in a sexless M.
Yes, it is.
Quote: I understand that if sex is that important to me, I do have the option of getting it elsewhere, ending the M, or whatever. But I’m committed to my W and to the M.
Whew!! You almost had me going there for a minute, thinking you had drawn a boundary. Being committed to the W and the M lets you off the hook, doesn't it? Yeah, I'm sure I'm pissing you off, but once you've settled down, why don't you think about this for a minute?
Quote: I want it to work. I want us both to be happy. I know that I’m ultimately responsible for my own happiness and W is ultimately responsible for hers, but isn’t it a loving goal to want both of us to be happy?
I'd say you want it to work your way. You want your wife to be happy your way. YOU can't have a goal for someone else.
Quote: I understand that no R is ever perfect, but despite repeated efforts, I’ve been unable to find out what W would like to change.
Repeated efforts at what? Getting her to fix the marriage? And since she doesn't tell you how to change, you don't have to? Is that it? So what are the things you want to have changed, and what have you done about it besides put up with her and complain? These actions aren't working. Now what?
Quote: I want more sex and have made that plain.
Yeah. I want a million dollars and have made that very plain to anyone who cares to listen, too. But it's just not showing up. What is UP with that? Apparently you have not made it as clear as you think because you still aren't having sex. Maybe you should reiterate YOUR want. Because it is YOUR want, after all. I do that with the money thing, too. I figure someone is going to hear me someday, finally take me seriously, and hand over the cash.
Quote: Lack of sex is the one overriding source of my unhappiness.
Really? What about the inability to stand up for yourself? What about your self-worth? What about your reluctance to draw a line in the sand? You sure it's only lack of sex that is feeding your misery?
Quote: So that unhappiness is caused by my expectations of having sex with my W? So I can become happy by not expecting sex from her?
Naw. I'd say it's great to have all the expectations you want. But going back to the gold medal scenario, would you feel sorry for me, given the outline I gave you above, when I came home all bummed out that I didn't win the gold? Would you not be tempted to say to me, Corri, sorry you didn't win, but I don't think your expectation were at all realistic to begin with.
What is being said here is you and HD and others want the medal but you aren't willing to do what it takes to get it. It is not up to your wife to tell you how to be so that YOU can get more sex with her. It is up to you to take charge of you and do whatever it is you need to do to be happy. NO ONE, no one this board can tell you what that is. You have to put some effort into this. You have to decide what are the non-negotiables that you need to be happy. You have to have the balls to own it. You have to state it and stick to it. And you have to decide if your marriage ultimately is more important than your personal happiness, if it comes down to it.
You making your wife the scape goat right now lets you completely off the hook. Right now, you get to be the victim. Just like I get to be the victim when I don't win the gold medal because everything I didn't do to train for it SHOULD have been enough. I should've won, I should've won, that should've been enough... now I'm a victim and I get to be miserable to boot, and in the middle of all of these should've beens and personal misery, I DON"T have to claim personal responsibility for what I didn't do. It gets to be EVERYONE else's fault.
I can let it go and change my 100M dash expectations, or I can get busy, own my personal responsibility and go after my goal, regardless of what others say.
FIGURE IT OUT!! If you can't do it on your own, go get help. But for gosh sakes, stop being a friggin' victim.
I agree with you, but I'm beginning to think that there is a "kinder, gentler" way to make this sort of change. I remember reading a diet book that said in order to finally successfully lose weight, it is important to thank your fat for all it did for you before you let it go. Thank it for big, healthy babies and cookie breaks that fueled your career and donuts that kept you from yelling at your loved ones and all the social events at which you were able to freely eat and enjoy yourself. If you don't acknowledge that you reaped some benefit from being fat, you won't accept that it was a valid choice that you made and you will continue to view yourself as a victim with no ability to make different choices in the future and be thin.
It's obvious how this applies to an HD in a long term SSM. Perhaps, we need to thank our celibacy or near celibacy before we let it go. Our celibacy allowed us to keep our marriages together for the good of our children. It allowed us to postpone dealing with our fears about being divorced. It allowed us to relax and be kind of wimpy or wishy-washy about figuring out what sex means to us. It allowed us to spend years enjoying the facets of our LD spouses personalities that we do love. Once we acknowledge that our celibacy was a choice that we freely made and recognize that we weren't being stupid or irrational in making that choice, we can choose to make new choices which make sex ahigher priority in our lives or we can choose to continue to make the same choices without feeling like a victim.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
HD said: ------------------ No, best to keep big mouth shut on this one. ------------------
WRONG
It is best that you are honest with your wife!
She already has trust issues with you.
You need to make it a standard policy that you tell her EVERYTHING that the other woman says. Your WIFE, has a right to know.
When you are ready, answer my earlier post to you.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Hey Nopkins...I'm not ignoring your earlier post. I'm just scrambling today here at work. As for the core issue, maybe I do need you to do 20 questions. Let me think on that one. As for telling W about the Ex's email, I just don't know. I really don't think it's wise.
Hairdog....running today because of an eastern Missouri nursing home that treats its patients like crap.
HD said: ----------------- As for telling W about the Ex's email, I just don't know. I really don't think it's wise. -----------------
Your ex is essentially offering her bed to you and you don't think your wife should know?
If someone was offering themselves to my wife, I would damn sure want to know about it. With my past, I make sure I tell her when I get offers. How the hell can she trust me otherwise? I have a history of honesty, at least in that area of my life. I am working on honesty in every area of my life.
Why would your wife trust you? Your ex is already an issue, and you are wanting to start (or continue) to keep secrets about her.
If you don't think it is wise to be upfront and honest with your wife about your ex, then your marriage really is in trouble, and you are going to need help beyond what the folks here are capable of offering.
It is high time you start taking your WIFEs side on the ex-wife issue. The ex is history, and BOTH you and your wife need to make decisions TOGETHER on issues that affect your family.
If honesty buys you some pain, then so be it. In my opinion, honesty will (in almost all cases) buy you less pain than dishonesty.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I disagree with nearly everything you said, but I’ll keep the reply to a manageable size.
Quote: I say sex isn't important to you. You have 12 years of no sex, and 16 years of some sex to prove it. You complain a lot. So I'd say you like complaining. But I would not say that you like sex.
Absolutely wrong. Sex is very important to me. The reason for the proof you cite is that my W and my M are MORE important to me. It’s not that sex isn’t important – it’s just not the most important thing.
And no, I don’t complain a lot. I complain here because I feel like I’m among people who can understand my sitch. Some of it is venting, some of it is admittedly looking for other-validation, but mostly it’s the former.
Quote: If I told you I expect to win the gold medal in the 100M dash, and then I told you I used to be a pretty fast runner in high school, I occassionally run now, and who needs to work out? My body is fine the way it is... you and everyone else here would laugh my gold medal expectations off the board.
You got this one right: I would laugh. You have an expectation, but make absolutely NO effort to do the things necessary in order to meet that expectation. I know that you think that also applies to my expectation of having sex, but you are wrong, wrong, wrong.
First of all, I think that M is universally assumed to involve sex: winning Olympic gold is not. Secondly, you imply that I’ve made no effort to bring my expectation to fruition – wrong again. W admits that “she has a problem” – this is not something that I told her. When our attempts to ML during the first week of M failed miserably and ended in tears, I was very understanding. Losing your virginity is a big thing. Going from an entire adolescence of being told not to have sex to being married and expected (yes, there’s that word again) to have sex is a big change. You may doubt it, but I was very understanding, not just feigning understanding. She apologized for not ML, and told me that she had a problem that she needed to work out herself. For many years I let her get by with repeating that statement and doing nothing about it. Then I began gently prodding her – asking about seeing a doctor, asking if I could help, asking about possibly seeing a C, … but got nothing.
I am absolutely willing to make any changes needed to attain my goal. I do admit, however, to not knowing what is needed. I’ve tried asking her – not what I need to do in order to get laid, but what I could do to make her happier, to make our M better, to make me a better person, etc. I’ve tried, honestly and earnestly with a C – and I feel that I’ve made progress within myself, whether anyone else sees it or not. I just don’t know what I should be doing different. I’m quite certain that there are plenty of things – I just don’t know what they are.
Quote: Being committed to the W and the M lets you off the hook, doesn't it? Yeah, I'm sure I'm pissing you off, but once you've settled down, why don't you think about this for a minute?
Wrong again – on both counts. No, I’m not pissed off in the least. I asked because I wanted an answer, pretty or not. Being more committed to W and the M than to the desire for sex doesn’t let me off of the hook for anything. I’m fully cognizant of the fact that I’m choosing to put those things ahead of sex, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t still want the sex.
Quote: I'd say you want it to work your way. You want your wife to be happy your way. YOU can't have a goal for someone else.
There is some truth to that – but that’s true for everybody isn’t it. Yes, I want things to work my way. Who doesn’t? There’s really no way to argue that. But do I have a goal for her? No, I don’t. I want more sex. I want it with her. I would like for her to want the same, but by her own admission she has a problem that she has said that she wants to “work out”.
Quote: Repeated efforts at what? Getting her to fix the marriage? And since she doesn't tell you how to change, you don't have to? Is that it? So what are the things you want to have changed, and what have you done about it besides put up with her and complain? These actions aren't working. Now what?
I was going to take these questions one at a time, but I think I can lump them together. My efforts have been to improve myself and to improve the M – and yes, sex is part of that. I don’t expect her to fix the M. I’ve already detailed things I have done to try to fix myself and the M, and it’s been considerably more than put up with her and complain. And believe me, I’m painfully aware that the things I’ve done haven’t worked.
Now what? I don’t know. That’s something I’m hoping to learn from PM and from this group. I’m not sure that I believe her when W says that she wants to work on/fix that sex issue. She’s made no visible effort in over 28 years. She’s refused to even discuss sex with two different C’s. It’s quite possible that she has no need or desire for sex and would be quite happy without it. It’s quite possible that she views it as something she does for me. If that’s the case, we’ll never agree. If that’s the case, I’ll live in a sexless M until one of us dies. I’ll do that because, as much as I desire sex, I love and desire her companionship even more.
Quote: Yeah. I want a million dollars and have made that very plain to anyone who cares to listen, too. But it's just not showing up. What is UP with that? Apparently you have not made it as clear as you think because you still aren't having sex. Maybe you should reiterate YOUR want. Because it is YOUR want, after all. I do that with the money thing, too. I figure someone is going to hear me someday, finally take me seriously, and hand over the cash.
Now you’re getting ridiculous. I’ve stated what I want because I want her to know. That’s all. If you’ve read my other posts, you know very well that I struggle constantly with the idea of putting my desires above hers. It’s hard to read inflection into printed text, but based on your phrasing and the capitalization of “your”, I’m reading this as saying that I’m selfish and that I think that my wants should take precedence. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, I’ve sacrificed my wants in many areas in order to fulfill the wants and needs of my family. And lest you take that wrong as well, no, I’m not looking for sympathy, and, no, I’m not a martyr.
Quote: (In response to my statement that the lack of sex is a major cause of my unhappiness) Really? What about the inability to stand up for yourself? What about your self-worth? What about your reluctance to draw a line in the sand? You sure it's only lack of sex that is feeding your misery?
Yes, really. “Inability to stand up for (my)self”? Come on. One paragraph ago you were berating me for stating what I want. Which is it? “Lack of self-worth” – where did that come from? Reluctance to draw a line in the sand? If you don’t see this as conflicting with your statements about MY wants, then I would like some elaboration. Given that I won’t leave my M, just what line should I draw and how should I respond to crossing/not crossing? And lastly, no, lack of sex isn’t my/our only problem. I never said it was. I said that it was the major one. I stand by that.
Quote: Naw. I'd say it's great to have all the expectations you want. But going back to the gold medal scenario, would you feel sorry for me, given the outline I gave you above, when I came home all bummed out that I didn't win the gold? Would you not be tempted to say to me, Corri, sorry you didn't win, but I don't think your expectation were at all realistic to begin with.
Am I to infer that you think that having sex with our spouse is unreasonable? Am I to infer that you equate the possibility of having sex with your spouse with the possibility of winning a gold medal at the Olympics? It’s just a wild a** guess, but I would bet that there’s a lot higher percentage of married people having sex with their spouses than there are athletes winning Olympic gold.
Quote: What is being said here is you and HD and others want the medal but you aren't willing to do what it takes to get it.
WRONG!!! I’ve said many times that I’m willing to do whatever I can. I can’t help it that I’m so shallow, thick, and slow that I haven’t stumbled across what it is that I need to do. Wives don’t come with an owner’s manual. I’ve made honest efforts to find out what I need to do differently, but I guess I’m just too dumb to figure it out.
Quote: It is not up to your wife to tell you how to be so that YOU can get more sex with her. It is up to you to take charge of you and do whatever it is you need to do to be happy.
On the first point, you could be right, but there’s just as good a chance that you’re wrong. If W doesn’t know herself, you’re right. If there’s some reason that she’s holding out, I think you’re both dead wrong. If I refused to kiss W because she had bad breath, but wouldn’t volunteer that she had bad breath, and wouldn’t reply to her direct questioning about why I wouldn’t kiss her, I would be doing both of us a disservice. In that case, what could W do to address the sitch? If I won’t tell her what’s wrong, she’s left with either trying to figure it out on her own, or learning to be happy without kissing (or, of course, finding someone else to kiss her). You can’t take charge of something about which you have no knowledge and over which you have no control.
Quote: NO ONE, no one this board can tell you what that is. You have to put some effort into this. You have to decide what are the non-negotiables that you need to be happy. You have to have the balls to own it. You have to state it and stick to it.
Agreed on the first sentence. I have and continue to do so on the second. Beyond that, it gets murky. I’m committed to my W, period, end. More sex would make me happier. I will continue to work toward that until it either happens or until one or both of us becomes incapable of the act. Own it? I’ve stated it. I’ve stuck to it. I’m still sticking to it. I haven’t experienced a lot of results yet, but after nearly 29 years, I’m still trying. I’m seeing the C again. I read SSM, I’m reading PM, and I’m trying to apply the principles I’ve learned.
Quote: You making your wife the scape goat right now lets you completely off the hook. Right now, you get to be the victim. Just like I get to be the victim when I don't win the gold medal because everything I didn't do to train for it SHOULD have been enough. I should've won, I should've won, that should've been enough... now I'm a victim and I get to be miserable to boot, and in the middle of all of these should've beens and personal misery, I DON"T have to claim personal responsibility for what I didn't do. It gets to be EVERYONE else's fault.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong again. W is NOT a scapegoat. I’m NOT a victim. And it’s NOT anybody else’s fault.
It is true that W controls the sexual reins. It is her decision not to ML. And while it’s not absolutely certain, it’s overwhelmingly likely that something I have done, something I have said, something I am still doing, or something I am still saying is causing or contributing to her unwillingness to ML. I am not “off the hook”.
Quote: I can let it go and change my 100M dash expectations, or I can get busy, own my personal responsibility and go after my goal, regardless of what others say.
FIGURE IT OUT!! If you can't do it on your own, go get help. But for gosh sakes, stop being a friggin' victim.
I won’t let go of my desire to have an active sex life with W. I HAVE BEEN and STILL AM working the best way I know how to go after that goal. I’ve already covered that. If you believe only one thing I say here, believe this: I want to figure it out. I’ve said and done everything I know, I’m still working, but I’m not getting there. I’ve sought help in C’s, in books, and here.
And lastly, I am NOT a victim. Never have been, and never will be. I am in this M because I have chosen to be here. I want things to be different/better, but if they never change, then they never change. I won’t be happy with the sitch, but then as now, the good will outweigh the bad.
Nop: At first I read the paragraph about keeping secrets about my ex and I thought, ouch, I need to work on the honesty thing with my W. But then I thought, what secret? That she sent me an email? That's no biggie. That she would marry me if I dumped W? No big surprise there...I am quite a find, of course. She is not offering her bed to me. She is offering endless torture if I choose to divorce and move in with her subsequent to divorce.
This seems like a damned if I do damned if I don't proposition. At least if I don't tell W about it, and she finds out later, I can claim that I was trying to save her from the stress of knowing about ex wife's proposition, and say honestly that I would never take her up on it.
Wow, between Corri and w's notes, all I can say is there are not just the usual "three versions" here (my version, your version and the truth), but likely four, Corri's, "w", "mrs w", and the truth......
