Grief and Gratitude, Grok

[grok]

D, Thanks for the reminders and hard earned knowledge
 

Asking W about her feelings is not that helpful. Sure, it gives you a window into her current mindset. For that moment in time. And perhaps it assuages some doubts as it allows you to see and understand her path a bit.
 
However, she answered like one would suspect she would. And that, reinforces her position within herself. She is already surrounding herself with people who reinforce and encourage her viewpoint, don’t add yourself to that entourage.
 
Yes, validate her feelings if/when those times come up and it is appropriate. That’s validating her feelings not the situation.

 
All true.  Expanding the context, this was a paraphrase.  One evening shortly after she found her own place she had come over to say goodnight to the kids.  She came out of the common restroom after extra long and said "G, can we talk?  I was in there curled on the floor with FEELINGS and I need to talk"  "OK W, come with me" and I took us outside and closed the door to be apart from the children.  I attempted to just listen and validate feelings while using empathy techniques (mirroring and emotion labeling) from "Never Split the Difference".  She talked for about an hour. 
 
I considered whether this was providing emotional support when I should be dropping it  OR  a 180 from bad habits acquired of only listening while I do other things at the same time.  When we first met she was in much distress and under stress.  I was focused just listening to her.  A decade and more later, I ended up gaming, looking a phone, etc... while listening to her.  This undoubtedly left feelings of "am I not important to you?"  I didn't recognize it at the time because, well, I could repeat back all she said right?  Just the facts right?  Wrong! Classic Mars v Venus.
 
An aside:  Talking this much is not unusual in our history.  One of our inside jokes from almost the beginning was that she has 40,000 words a day to get out.  She talks, I listen. Of course I cannot sustain that much female talking needs all on my own so I encouraged her ladies nights, etc...
 
 

Usually there is a window when the leaving spouse is more generous in negotiating. A time when their emotions are running high and they are more “happy”. This reverts or disappears as more time passes. Just something to consider while thinking over the business side of your journey.

 
Thank you and good advice.  Early on I offered limited amount and duration alimony to transition her.  Months later W said "I don't want ANY support from you."  Now in the end at mediation 3? W said "If I could JUST leave I would."  I see the trajectory you are referring to.
 
 

Demonizing W will alter you. It also will affect your kids. Your kids are half W. Half their genetic make up comes from their Mom. They know this. Any demonizing or such will be reflected / absorbed by them. Believe me, they already have many question of if they are destine for a similar fate as Mom.

 
This I think I don't do and would actually find hard to do.  To me it is a crushing tragedy, not an evil demon.  And from the beginning is not who I want to be.  I have caught myself complaining about this or that and stop myself short.  I can do something about it with W or decide it is something I accept.  Visualizing the big red STOP sign.
 
I believe W wonders if she is destined for the same fate as her Mom.  I have pulled together many signs from W to make a 90% fit to a kind of MLC.  Or as I think better phrased from another site, it is a "Crisis of Purpose."    I learned her mom had an affair of some kind early on in their marriage.  Her dad has apparently never let her forget it.  They are still together.  If you pay attention you can see they snipe at each other a lot.  A bunch of behind the scenes unhappiness.  I received "G, I don't want to be in my 70s and like them."  To complicate that even more, she had been her mom's outlet and counselor since she was 13!  When I met W she was co-dependent with her mother.  Her mother would use indirect emotional blackmail.  One of a number of reasons it took me four years to marry her.  Understand there were just as many of my own issues I had to work through before I could say “I Do.” I thought we had substantially resolved these slumbering dragons.
 

It’s perfectly ok, and needed, to discuss the situation with the kids. Answer their questions openly and honestly - age appropriate of course. And some topics can be, are, none of their business. Which is still an answer.

I have discussed briefly with each child. D18 is the emotional one who bursts into tears with arguments. She knows the most works with OM. She has told off her mom about him. i.e. that relationship is toxic, toxic, toxic to all. She is spreading her wings and pushing away while still wanting mom’s love and attention. She also told me I was “kinda checked out for a few years” and she is right. D17 is the little lawyer who gets angry. I believe W feared her reaction the most. She knows some. D17 put crosses all over the house when first told. She has turned out to also be the most needy for mom’s attention and time. This is OK. Of course she wants mom’s love and attention when under stress. S12 is the sensitive boy who internalizes stress. “Dad, stop talking about it. Why would you talk about things that hurt. “ He often comes over after lights out to complain about various things that hurt.

The removing of appliances and supplies is more troubling in my opinion. She moved out, without a signed legally binding separation agreement, let her furnish her new digs (more or less). Not being mean here, rather you and the kids need stuff.

In truth, W has been incredibly slow at taking things from the home. Only a few things that are explicitly hers and asked a few times for parts we would unlikely to use in the next years. At one point W even stated she would like to keep the her wedding ring, wooden chest she bought in Korea, her bicycle, etc… “If it is OK with you.” I was dumbfounded. W included the wedding ring in the list she is asking me about? She quipped to the mediator that it was expensive to outfit a new place. I said nothing. Where does this seem to come from? Well, two threads of thought -

She was clear at the beginning that she is the offender and I am the “Injured Party.” Her words. She has helped several friends in troubled relationships who left their husbands. I had not really taken it as a red flag at the time. I knew these men at least a little. They were problematic to the point I would not leave my kids at their house if it was only the man and their kids. I did not like them. Now these women are W’s advisors in part. Their terminology creeps in. I have Love that they have been W’s friends and Anger that they advise divorce as a solution. At DB1 I heard “G, I head from Ms. T the form is easy. We could sign the divorce next week I think. I HAVE to burn it all down and start over! You are too hard to get emotional support from”

The second thread is additional signs of MLC. Since sometime spring 2023, W basically began living out of one laundry basket when here. With new clothes as she lost weight. She has hardly touched her clothes and stuff in the closet. She has left and hardly touched anything in the dresser. And hardly other things except for her volumes set of craft supplies. As if W did not like who she was with me and wanted to be someone else. To my GREAT sadness, many hurts attached to me that I did not understand or know about before.

g

[grok]

Just now W came in with tears and anger. "You know what!" "You think I have options and I don't!" "It's always been about the money with you!" "All those years I struggled with weight and felt fat and ugly... and YOU!" "You know you are on the spectrum!"

I presented myself as calm and collected. I was attempting to listen with focus. I asked what is it? I don't know unless you tell me. I know I could be mildly on the spectrum. I completely deny it is every about the money.

"Think with your HEART for once!" "Where are your emotions?!"

W, Those are ALL there. I have not showed you that part of me since... And I process emotions and logic differently than you. Asynchronous.

She left the way she came.

The only thing I can think of? Today is the 18th. The mediator emailed the draft final settlement on the 11th with an appointment to finalize on the 22nd. I found out today the L I had asked to review could not do it until the 25th. I emailed the mediator and W asking for a delay until after the 25th.

What to do? or do nothing.

g

[grok]

W later via text,

“What is the intention with the lawyer? Do I need one of my own?”

Gratitude today for rain

The rain showers hit this morning while working from home today. “HEY S12! It’s raining! Let’s goooo!” He was looking despondent watching YouTube. He starts slow but is soon jumping for shoes and towels. “Come on sister!” “Come on D17! Let’s scooter in the rain”. Off we went into our street in the rain getting soaked. A great 15 minutes just because we could.

g

[DnJ]

Good Morning g

I agree with postponing the finalizing appointment with the mediator until your L has looked over things. This is likely the biggest financial decision of your life, it’s wise to ensure you have proper counsel.

Just now W came in with tears and anger.

When she comes at you with tears and anger, she’s not looking for advice or for her problems to be solved. She’s looking to be heard is all. She just wants to vent. Also, she looking for you to fight back. For a resupply of her justification.

Good job remaining calm.

W later via text,

“What is the intention with the lawyer? Do I need one of my own?”

Therein lay the likely reason for her outburst.

You have a lawyer. You have taken control of your life and choices. (Recall her tirade, she felt she doesn’t have options.) Her loss of control over you and the situation is upsetting her.

Do not answer her. Let her stew. She fired you as husband. You are days away from finalizing a separation agreement, let her feel that, let her lay in the bed she’s made. Do not solve this for her.

W’s statement: Think with your HEART for once!" "Where are your emotions?! That says a lot of where she is.

You don’t think with your heart! One thinks with their brain, and feels with their heart. Well, not really. Thinking, feeling, and such, all occurs within the brain. Anyhow, this illustrates the emotional path she is on.

Love the splashing around the rain and puddles. OMG! It’s been years since my kids were young and I remember running around with them in the rain. So much fun!

Well done Dad!

D

[grok]

D,

When she comes at you with tears and anger, she’s not looking for advice or for her problems to be solved. She’s looking to be heard is all. She just wants to vent. Also, she looking for you to fight back. For a resupply of her justification.

Good job remaining calm.

It actually would be a 180 for me not to be calm, but I don't think that would be helpful. I had two thoughts in mind as she listed unhappy and hurt feelings. First, I forget what thread I recently found this in, was inserting "I FEEL" before her words and "RIGHT NOW" at the end. Second, the thought in Mars v Venus books that she needs to express all her negative feelings to sort through them. They are not meant to be taken as literal permanent positions. So, I listened and tried to hear what was behind. She wanted to be heard, understood, and not dismissed as irrational.

W: "This is NOT HORMONES! I CAN think and feel at the same time."
G: "Yes. I agree and believe you."

This is in line with another Mars v Venus concepts where women process emotion and thought simultaneously while men have to context switch back and forth. This makes men much slower when both have to be done on a topic.

My W is one of the most emotionally sensitive women I've ever met. In her words, "Most people can see ~30% of what others feel. I can see ~70%." I used to refer to her as a magnifying glass. To her, all the emotional pressure all around felt important when it often wasn't. It was just magnified. She is also one of the most introspective. We almost never argued, and I rarely expressed any unhappiness. Any disappointment / recriminations from me, filtered through emotional sensitivity, and processed by extreme introspection would feel crushing to her. She would accuse and beat herself up before I would think to address an issue. So, I almost never did and so removed a needed feedback loop in our R.

Do not answer her. Let her stew. She fired you as husband. You are days away from finalizing a separation agreement, let her feel that, let her lay in the bed she’s made. Do not solve this for her.

I did not answer. I kept remembering advice to wait on replies. Things may resolve. Be sure what you reply serves your goal.

Grief when it impacts the children.
S12: "Mom, mom! Is something wrong?! What's going on?! Are you OK?!"
W: "No! I can't!"
Door bangs.
G: "S12, it's OK. This is something betweek your mother and I. YOU are OK."
S12: "OK Dad. Is it only an hour before we go to my <scout like organization>?"

In original limerance W made for statements like "The kids will be fine. Kids are resilient. It's just a differt form of family. My friend Ms. T's kids were wonky for a bit when she left her H but they are fine now." Wonky for a bit? One of Ms. T's teenage daughters took to repetitively walking the neighborhoods alone at 2am for 10 miles listening to church sermons and looked anorexic.

Later on that evening
S12 and I went to his troop meeting and worked on trail skills. I talked with two men I made friends with since this began. They have sons S12's age. Made tentative plans to do something with one on Sat. I showed him my church mens group planned a skeet shoot. Or perhaps we will bike ride with the kids. When I got home I noticed her vehicle present. S12 went inside while I started taking in trash cans from streetside. W came right out to me before I could finish.

W: "G, I'm sorry about my outburst earlier. I... I was afraid. When trust is broken ... we have to re-establish something. When you don't know anymore how another person will act/react. Because we've never been in something like this. I was scared...I would lose the kids. Because of my living situation."
G: pause. how to validate feelings... "That would feel very scary."
W: "Yes!"

There lay the reason behind the reason (loss of control). I said nothing else. I could almost hear the fulfillment of the concept in "Never Split the Difference" of getting a "Thats right!" from someone when they feel you understand where they are coming from. It worked, though I wonder if I did right.

W: Imediately walking away toward the back yard, "I have to go back in and help D17 feed the her new baby bird. D17 told me I have to go through the back door so the dogs don't bark." She is avoiding forms of D17's disaproval/emotional pressure.
G: I go through the front door with no dogs barking.

g

[grok]

Interlude

Boston - More Than a Feeling

[3rd Verse]
When I'm tired and thinking cold
I hide in my music, forget the day
And dream of a girl I used to know
I closed my eyes and she slipped away
She slipped away

[Chorus]
It's more than a feeling (More than a feeling)
When I hear that old song they used to play (More than a feeling)
I begin dreaming (More than a feeling)
'Til I see Marianne walk away

There are multiple overlapping meanings here. My chest hurts and eyes tear.

Mediocre working headphones on (EarPods) on and scooping soup into a container. Lightly signing along. I’ve always liked the band Boston. S12 lightly makes fun of how I sound when there is no song he can hear. OK, OK S12, let me take the headphones off so you can hear too. Who doesn’t like singing along to Boston? Finish scooping soup and put container in the fridge…on to some dishes…”CHILDREN! 10 dishes each please!” Groans all around. Let’s see, 2 1/2 hours since getting home.

Tired when I got home from work and after standstill traffic on the toll expressway (I paid for being in standstill traffic, sigh) I noticed W’s car parked nearby. I finished my phone conversation and got my stuff out of my car. I noticed W driving away. She was sitting in her vehicle all this time? Not in the house with S12? Huh. Put my stuff down and change into shorts and T-shirt. It is warm here. D17’s baby bird greets me with obsessive chirps.

I’m hungry, tired, but I need to focus on children’s request to have more “meals dad, not just cooked ingredients.” They all seem to want different foods and I had taken to making basics they can assemble. i.e. beans, rice, fruit, veggies, etc…. “If you want meals kids, I need your help in identifying what things you will eat when WE make them. You have to help.” So, D18 has been making weekly lists of one dish each day. Mexican last week. Canadian this week. S12 and I grocery shopped for most of the ingredients the other day.

They have been helping make the dishes but Ds were out and S12 busy right now. Canadian Cheese Soup is first on the list this week. I can do that. I chop the veggies and potatoes, heat the bullion, start bacon frying, and put butter in a pot for the thickener. One of my sisters calls while I am making. A few minutes later I am: flipping bacon RIGHT NOW before it burns, mashing the potatoes and veggies as their timer dinged, stirring flour into the milk and butter (only have 2 minutes), talking to my sister, when D18 arrives home and starts sobbing because she had left food in her room and there were lots of flies. “Daaaaaad! Help!!! Now!” She must be really tired and worn out. Whew! I can do this. “Of course I will help you D18, pause on my bed and rest a minute while you wait for me.” I say goodby to my sister. Dump thickener into the soup and mash it. Chop bacon into bits and dump into soup. And finally dump in the cheese and stir. Now it can wait while I help D18.

D17 is dropped off at home. D17 and I think the soup is delicious. S12 eats a bean, rice and cheese burrito instead. D18 still is isn’t feeling well so I’ll put on my headphones and start picking up. D18 thanks me for saying I’ll put her soup into a container for her.

g

[grok]

It's even hard for me to type this out and express my feelings in words.

I often end up thinking in metaphors, song or poetry since there are not words. I used to sing this to W.

You are my sunshine
My only sunshine
You make me happy
When skies are gray
You’ll never know, dear
How much I love you
Please don’t take my sunshine away

I thought of her as this little nuclear furnace in the core of my being that would always be there through the toughest times. After W surprised me with her "in love with OM," and DB, and "Oh, I was a WAW anyway but I thought I just had to suffer before I met OM," that warmth imploded into a black hole in the core of my being. It threatened to consume me. Either I grow faster than it can destroy me or I die.

It has been a desperate struggle to grow ever since. I think I have the black hole contained now. The work however, goes on. PIES. Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual. I acknowledge my issues since each was kind of stagnant before DB.

The irony is the following verses might well have been predictive.

I’ll always love you and make you happy
If you will only say the same
But if you leave me to love another
You’ll regret it all someday

You told me once, dear, you really loved me
And no one else could come between
But now you’ve left me and love another
You have shattered all my dreams

I had many dreams, although W accused me of not having a future vision. To me, all of the various dreams were of value because she was there in them. Perhaps this was too ambiguous to be attractive. Creating new ones is a slow ongoing process now. Who am I? Where to I want to be?

Also predictive, although I did not see it for what it was at the time, were our wedding vows. Mine had an element of "choosing her" for I felt my emotions were insufficient to carry me through to the end. Hers had the element of "because I love" (because I'm in love). I found out later that mine bothered her and she felt less loved. I saw hers and wondered how that was sustainable for a lifetime.

Now I see the her heavy weight put on the emotional element as a driving factor. In a gap where I did not sustain her emotions, she accepted OM's attentions to fill it.

Last year W said, "I'm sorry you were hurt in all this, you've never been heartbroken before have you?" A non-apology and to me a minimization. Divorce after 25 years side by side through all is so much more to me. It is breakage and chaos down to your very identity. What you know and feel as a result, well...I don't have the words, but maybe

Grief and Gratitude, both -

[Verse 1]
If I didn't know what it hurt like to be broken
Then how would I know what it feels like to be whole
If I didn't know what it cuts like to be rejected
Then I wouldn't know the joy of coming home

[Chorus]
Maybe it's ok if I'm not ok
'Cause the One who holds the world is holding on to me
Maybe it's alright if I'm not alright
'Cause the One who holds the stars is holding my whole life

g

[Catman19]

Very well said, I think as men we express our inner thoughts with words followed by pure intention, if any of this is to teach us anything is that the fairer sex feels more than just words and maybe it's a sign for us to understand this perspective. As men we internalize and feel every emotion and tribulation in our lives and we tend to deal with them head on as many times we do not have a choice. That which does not kill us only makes us stronger, and in the end the universe has a way of balancing itself out

[grok]

Getting A Life – Just do it.

When getting the rollercoaster of bombs last year, it forced a hard look at myself. And eventually a hard look at her, but that is another story. I realized the truth of many of her complaints that came spilling out in the wake of OM's attentions. I had such belief and respect for W's judgements at the start that I took most things at face value. My self-worth plunged, I felt a failure, I had let a predator into my family, and I blamed myself.

YOU FEEL LIKE YOU FAILED in your role as protector, and now some PREDATOR has invaded your home, your family, your finances, your MARRIAGE, and yeah . . . there can be a lot of GUILT associated with that awful feeling

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551052#Post2551052

But this is truth, no matter how much a WW praises OM

Men and women that would knowingly get involved with a married woman or man, and prey upon their emotional weaknesses, ARE predators!! In every sense of the word. mad

I detest them. Do not "make friends" with them, do not expect them to deal honorably with you (for they are, by definition, DIShonorable) and do NOT take what they tell you as TRUTH!

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551069#Post2551069

I DID need to GAL, as I saw I had given up almost all the activities I once treasured. I had thought I was giving them up to satisfy the requirements of kids and spouse. Hmmmm... the advice is just get OUT! Away from WW. Preferably something you don't normally do and social. It will lead to things … and so it has!

GAL, GAL and more GAL...

GAL can be anything that you find absorbing, and which helps give your life structure and meaning. GAL can range from hobbies and jobs at home to Meetup groups and sporting activites. Some DBers are more extrovert, others more introvert. It's about finding what floats your boat, improves your day and helps build YOU back up again.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2579130&page=1

So, I searched out the nearest local micro-brewery and drove right on over on a Friday evening after work. I sat outside people watching, feeling bad, then messaged a prior member of the work team I oversaw. He came over and we had brews, food, and conversation about the nature of love and relationships. While there I saw a group in yellow shirts for a “run club.” I thought “Great! I used to do a lot of long distance running.” When I looked it up, I had to laugh. The club would run/walk for 2 or 3 miles to justify sitting at the pub after for a while.

The next week I came ready to meet people and “run.” I went over to the table where the small group was gathered and introduced myself. I ended up talking to Fernando and his father down from the Northeast. They were not part of the run group but just knew some of the regulars. We connected over riding bikes and random guy talk, and he also said I should come back on Tuesday nights for “Trivia Night.” I never did go running with that group! But I did get back into biking, both on and off road.

I have ended up by Fernando’s invite going biking at night with lights through the City Downtown at night with “Critical Mass” group multiple times, and then...
- Mountain biking on my own on local trails,
- street riding others I met through Fernando and friends (Chris, Steve, Mike, Micah, Lucian, Jeannette, Chrystal X 2, and more) at the brew house,
- riding “Bikes & Beers” 36 miles and met more people,
- a local bike store grand opening ride for 37 miles,
- broke some spokes and after repair was done last week I looked at the time and had just enough to ride 12 miles single track trails through the woods
- Feels Good.

I also came back on a Tuesday night for what ever "Trivia Night" was to be. Fernando waved me over to the table his team occupied. I've been back most weeks since as this group has adopted me. LOL. This version of a trivia game has the bar handing out print outs which take about two hours to answer the topical questions anounced over the loud speakers. It is an all ages sort of place and about 15 teams compete each Tuesday with laughter and poking fun at each other. On some weeks, D18 and D17 will join me for an hour as D17's gymnastics is nearby. They do much better at naming modern music. I bribe the kids with a sandwich and craft soda.

To further get out of my comfort zone, this week I brought the trivia group a blueberry pie. Well, backing up, on Saturday I took S12 along with a friend and his son to go early season blueberry picking. We came home with two gallons of blueberries. Eat some, freeze some, and make pies with some of course. I made one pie on Tuesday evening after work to bring with me to the trivia group. One of the group sometimes works at the brewery and retrieved a knife from the kitchen to cut the pie. About 10 people got a slice including the two guys working the kitchen for the brewery. I think they were surprised and happy. Feels Good. Oh, and that night's special, homemade pot-roast sandwich, from the kitchen was delicious.

Old favorite long put aside - biking, baking. Out of my comfort zone - socializing new people, trivia, brew pub.

Gratitude for my father who sent me one of his expensive carbon fiber mountain bikes.
Gratitude to Fernando and co. who welcomed a stranger.

g

[DnJ]

Good Morning g

I had such belief and respect for W's judgements at the start that I took most things at face value.

I hear that! I had complete faith in my then W and took her poisonous words as gospel.

Self worth really takes a hit. Confidence is shaken/shattered and one is full of self doubts. It takes time to transmute such poison.

Well done getting out there and enjoying things. Awesome job, that’s quite a few miles of biking. I chuckled at the “run” club’s strategy/justifications. (I could get behind such. lol) Keep bribing the daughters for trivia answers. Oh my, modern music, social media icons, and such - yeah, I’m out of my depth I found out during such a trivia game.

Keep moving forward. You got this g.

D