I find myself in a situation which I would not have dreamed of ever being in. And which I have no idea how to get out of; or which course of action to really take.
This is going to be a somewhat longish write-up, and I would really value some perspectives from the community. In particular, I am looking for advice from some of the women on here that went through a midlife crisis (I believe that my wife is in one), and strategies that may work in supporting her while ensuring that the family does not suffer. I will write a brief background and am happy to expand on this.
Background
We started dating in 2012, with her always having been an independent and lively spirit. She could light up the room that she walked in, which drew me to her initially. Even back then, she hinted at issues with her parents as well as having done a lot to build herself up for a career, yet always just missing the opportunity to get to the level where she felt she should be. She was also quite clear that she did not want to be a mother and would want a nanny to support. I had always looked for an equal partner rather than someone who would take a step back, and thought that we would get support if we economically could.
We moved to her home country in 2013 and had our son in 2016. After having stayed home for a while, she took up a job again. Yet given my work, she did the drop-offs and pick-ups from nursery more often than me. At the age of two, our drama started with our son turning out to be severely epileptic - a hugely traumatic journey for both of us, with the fits luckily becoming under control after about a year. However, our son remained on heavy antiepileptics and she did not work for an extended period (I was so terrified that I slept in his room for 18 months and took a long time to move out).
While the fits stopped, our son (whom we had thought "normal" until then) completely shut down, could no longer speak, concentrate or give his attention. At the same time, my wife got pregnant with our daughter, who was born in early 2020. By this time, we understood that our son was on the autism spectrum (and has other issues), which led to her stopping work again after having restarted. During the pandemic, we moved to my home country for a while, where we lived well (we had agreed to not look at the money). However, she felt very isolated being an extrovert forced to live at a distance during the pandemic. She tried several times to set up different business ideas over the years, but never followed through. Something her parents tell me characterises her life - being full of energy and ideas, but somehow not being able to then stick to something and see it through. Which she sees differently, but there is something to this.
Post the pandemic, we moved back to London for schooling reasons - while she was initially pushing for it, she broke down in tears and had second thoughts towards the d-date. When I then took a stand and said we are going to do it. After having tried to buy a lot of properties (including in my country), we then bought a period property outside London. Her dream house in terms of the type of property, but not in an ideal location for her given her need for stimulus (e.g. theatre, art); and logistically turning out to be difficult. It is, however, a house which is difficult to sell for even close to the price that we paid. Which highlights that she has stepped out of reality.
Over the past 12 months, we had increasing friction - more fighting, and she had moved to sleep in a different room. Which I did not put much attention on, as she did not like our matress and we had slept apart for extended periods because of our kids in anyway. She had her own studio in the house to do art, and I did step up my efforts significantly to take on a lot of childcare (I have always done a good amount, but friends and family started telling me that I am like a working mum). During our summer holidays, one of my friends whom she had spoken to told me to be careful with my relationship - I discarded this but I should have listened.
D-day
One evening after having put the kids to bed, I went down and found her sitting in the front livingroom. I asked her if she had some time for me, wanting to have sex. We had a row during which she told asked me something she had asked me before "what do you actually want from life, what do you want to do with yourself" - which I had not taken as a serious question, but I now understand was important to her. She then told me she did not want to be with me, and left the house in tears. The next morning I tried hugging her thinking this had just been an outburst (she had let me hug her the nigh before), but she pushed me away asking if I had not been listening.
Speaking to her over the coming days, I told her how important she was to me and that I would do everything - she told me that she had walked down a long road and that she was now in "listening mode". That it might be to late. Then stuff such as "I would not be able to keep up with her". A couple of days later she told me that she thought we were done.
This took the legs out from under me. While I now recognise that there had been signs, this was completely unexpected. I fell into a real hole and pretty much immediately got therapy. The next 2 months were agony, with my mind trapped in negative emotional cycles of what she was doing (e.g. noticing she started wearing all the lingerie she had never put on) etc. However, I also realised that I had been deeply ground down during the pandemic, having been trapped in a mundanity of work and childcare. And never taking time to take care of myself, which she had repeatedly urged me to do. This is something that has bothered her and which I did not address beforehand, similarly to not consistently taking care of my looks and taking her hints of going somewhere without the kids.
My pivot
She started not just withdrawing from me, but also from the children. Given that our eldest is special needs and we have got complex logistics, I stepped up even more: - at least half of the logistics (next to a demanding full-time job) - breakfast every morning (she sleeps in - I suspect depression-linked, more later) - bedtime almost every evening (even when at the office, I try to come home on time) - at least one and mostly both days on the week-ends taking the kids out and doing fun things (I actually got told off the first time I took them to the theatre "why to you all of a sudden to this") - I sit with my son every evening to teach him to read - I stay over one night a week with both kids so that she has almost two full days free - I do a tremendous amount of the household (albeit she has in the last two weeks picked up a bit more again)
I have also started doing more for myself, finding time in the evenings to do sports at least twice a week. Which has always kept me zen and works its parts in feeling (and looking) good.
I have done lots of reading and listening to learn about relationships and the psychology and experiences of people in MLC or depression. This slowly helped me to let go. While this is not what I want, I have given her much more space, stopped talking about the relationship and taken a lot of stress of her.
Her situation
She is in her early 40s, has been unhappy for a long time (not being able to work, having to stay at home and giving up her career) and in retrospect must have been so pent up with frustration that she was like a volcano waiting to blow up. She is caught in a negative cycle of having made wrong decisions in her past (she should never have had children, she should have walked away 8 years ago etc) and gives me a lot of blame for her misery (I never did enough, I do not earn enough, I am the most boring person on earth).
She has no income of her own; no assets; has been spending significantly more than she can afford to (more now, but this has happened before), sitting on credit card debt that she cannot clear (more on this below).
The one constant at the moment is that she is done with me and does not want to try to reconnect (she told me over dinner in January that she thought we could try and build a bridge, but was not even sure if we were at the same river; and around 4 weeks back told me that she has no interest in trying to reconnect). However, she did go skiing with me for 5 days, but kept her distance and slept in a separate room. The challenge in this is that our life is so intertwined that we cannot separate (which she recognises as well): - We bought the house (she now blames me for this, like for everything) that we cannot get rid of without a big loss - She has no income, and we would struggle to afford two places (this house is too big to maintain as a single person) - Logistics are a nightmare, and a shared parental arrangement will not work - We need to think of the children, in particular the older one where schooling is difficult
She tells me that "we stopped growing together", which I am pretty sure she read in some of her books or heard in a podcast. She has taken great care for me to not see her naked for the past 4 months. However, she does initiate a lot of conversation with me on different topics.
She flipflops between long-term planning (she told me yesterday that we need to make a five year plan and move somewhere more interesting for her again), moving to a City she has been to for one week-end because she liked it, and then telling me that she needs to leave this place because she cannot take it anymore.
She does not want to work again in a corporate (this changes on- and off) and not below a certain salary that she feels she deserves. She is trying to establish herself as an independent and also considering academia / being an artist, but is frustrated at how slow this is and recognises that this may bring her more income.
I get told off for trying to "fix things" (I have always done this and she hates it she now tells me), yet she hinted at her debt situation several times (which I did not respond to) and now asked me if I can take out a loan to help as she cannot clear it on her own.
I do not think that she is in an affair; and I would not have thought that she is the person for this, although I fail to recognise who she has become on occasion. She has been verbally abusive to me a couple of times (telling me she is entitled to this) and cannot cope with having the children on her own the couple of days a week that I have to go to the office. She did try and do some exercise first thing in the morning for a while, but now mostly sleeps in and tells me she has difficulty sleeping.
She has taken to doing therapy which I asked her to and she agreed - she had depression before and recognises that this is an issue. I am not sure how open she is, and if she has found a therapist who is good enough to draw her out.
What do I want
I would like to ideally save my relationship, recognising that this is out of my control at the moment. My priority is my children and keeping them from a negative impact out of this; if she cannot cope at some point, I am willing to take them (which I am not sure she really wants, despite having withdrawn to a significant extent).
I believe that she needs to find a purpose in her life and I am trying to help without pushing her. Yet it is difficult seeing how far I go in this - she does need some realisation that she cannot want out on one hand but expect me to be exactly the same as before when things do not go as planned.
I am willing to give this real time. I would appreciate any thoughts and reflections on my situation, including what I could try (if anything additional) to help her; and potentially try to reconnect.
The moderators will give you a good breakdown on steps you should be taking. Many of them are contrary to what you feel like doing. It's not about you, she is struggling with herself and she likely sees you as an obstacle at this moment. I can see this is very difficult for you and I hope you get through this, try not to get overly emotional in any way, be the best Father you can be and give her her space. I would also not rule out an affair that dismissively, when they turn upset at you for little things and start the proverbial falling out of love phase, it's usually because someone else has caught her attention and they might think they have an opportunity at a new life or a fresh start somewhere else. I am on the same boat as you and I realize in hindsight a complete personality change does not happen without somebody sort of catalyst.
As other posters will tell you, focus on yourself and making the best version of yourself, that can never be overstated
Don't take out a loan for her right now. Horrible timing.
She's all over the place. The question she asked you "what do you actually want from life, what do you want to do with yourself", is the one she appears to be struggling with. But then again, we all do from time to time.
The biggest thing you can do is become a more attractive man and work on yourself.
Keep focusing on you and what you can control. Have a PMA (positive mental attitude). Do the right thing always. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best, and never lose faith that no matter what happens you will overcome this hardship and be better for it.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Welcome to the boards. I am sorry you find yourself in this situation, yet you are in a good place here. There are many kind compassionate folks here with much hard-earned wisdom, a lot of which will at first be counterintuitive.
Have you read Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis? It’s an excellent resource. Do keep it, this site, and the DB strategies to yourself as your W will likely see such efforts as insincere manipulation to just win her back. As Wonka said (and I totally agree with):
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am looking for advice from some of the women on here that went through a midlife crisis (I believe that my wife is in one), and strategies that may work in supporting her while ensuring that the family does not suffer.
The majority of the population of this site are LBS. There are a few posters who were MLCers, though they do not post very often.
A midlife crisis is triggered by some significant event - birth of a child, a wedding, a death, or some such - which uncovers long buried trauma(s) from their youth. These traumas were inflicted by a person in a position of authority over the youngster. Being young they had an ill prepared coping mechanism or the emotional maturity to understanding or accept what happened. Also, the authority figure usually coerces the youngster into keeping silent and further continues the traumatic events.
The youngster unable to reconcile or understand or cope then buries this vile event. Alas, for such an immature psyche, this extreme denial/burying is the only recourse to stave off a breakdown. However, that which is buried alive will haunt later.
Around midlife, pressures of mortality, marriage, career, kids, family, etc, start to mount. This is normal, as everyone experiences life’s transitions from stage to stage. However, for a MLCer, they had seeds of a crisis planted long ago and those unrecognized and unrealized demons of their past will no longer remain silent. A triggering event stirs those slumbering demons and a crisis bursts forth.
A crisis is consuming. It is ceaseless torment. And the crisis person does not know nor understand why or what is happening to them. Their deep unhappiness and depression grows and grows. They look around and see their once loving spouse, family, friends, and incorrectly assign blame upon them. Usually the spouse acquiring the lion’s share of that blame.
Realize, a MLCer cannot handle this, they cannot accept this continual pain. So they run. They become/behave the opposite of who they once were. They partake in all manner of behaviours. Spending, drinking, drugs, sex, fast cars, illicit/illegal behaviours and activities, and so on. And yes, affairs. Anything to take their mind of their torment. And anything to try to feel something, for depression is ever present.
A crisis is emotionally driven. The MLCer is driven by emotions. They are not rational, they lack empathy. Their emotions are cranked to eleven and they simply do not have any bandwidth for anyone or anything else.
I sincerely hope and pray it is not a midlife crisis, that is truly a horrible fate. However, be it a full blown crisis, a difficult transition, or something else, will be revealed in time.
Your path forward starts out pretty much the same regardless. Focus on you. Give W time and space. Keep pressure to minimum. And do your inner work. Become the best version of yourself. A man only a fool would leave.
Originally Posted by Lb23
ensuring that the family does not suffer.
Your son of 8, your daughter of 4, be their rock. Be there for them.
A person consumed by their crisis leaves a wake of destruction. There is lots of collateral damage. And kids are among that. Be strong and stable. Listen to them. Talk to them. Answer their question, age appropriately of course. Above all love them.
Do not demonize their Mom. Ever. For they are half her, and will personally take on those hurtful comments.
Originally Posted by Lb23
The challenge in this is that our life is so intertwined that we cannot separate (which she recognises as well): - We bought the house (she now blames me for this, like for everything) that we cannot get rid of without a big loss - She has no income, and we would struggle to afford two places (this house is too big to maintain as a single person) - Logistics are a nightmare, and a shared parental arrangement will not work - We need to think of the children, in particular the older one where schooling is difficult
None of those “reasons” will matter to her of she decides to leave. I’ve been there, and nothing is so intertwined, so difficult, such a logistic nightmare to keep one hellbent on leaving from doing so. They simply won’t care about the fallout. Or more accurately, their pain will drive them much more to leave than whatever pains might come about from such leaving.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I get told off for trying to "fix things" (I have always done this and she hates it she now tells me), yet she hinted at her debt situation several times (which I did not respond to) and now asked me if I can take out a loan to help as she cannot clear it on her own.
I’d not get embroiled into a loan with/for her.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I do not think that she is in an affair; and I would not have thought that she is the person for this, although I fail to recognise who she has become on occasion.
Sorry man. I cannot think of any LBS who has not discovered an affair.
It is staggering how common affairs are. Affairs are mere band-aids, a symptom of deep problems. A desperate attempt to find happiness, as they incorrectly equate sex with happiness. They are desperate, and desperate people do desperate things.
Like I said, affairs are staggeringly commonplace. And they mean nothing. They are an illicit relationship built upon a foundation of lies and deceit. It’s like building on sand, it requires incredible energies to maintain, and is almost always fated to topple.
Lb, you sound quite well thought out, detached, and grounded. Well done. Keep living your life, and being there for your kids. Do focus on you. GAL. Keep moving forward.
You’ve got the gift of time. Use it wisely.
I look forward to conversing with you.
Hope you have a wonderful day.
DnJ
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Welcome to the board.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Thank you all for your thoughts and I look forward to "listening and learning". I have been doing a lot of reading of the forum and bought myself the divorce remedy book - I am thinking on how to go about putting some of this into action.
After struggling hard for the first two months, I now try to give her the maximum space. Both from myself, as well of the children. As far as this is possible given that I work from home a couple of days a week. I may occasionally overstep with a comment when I do not catch myself in time (e.g. trying to provide a solution or questioning some of her more out-of-reality thinking), but I have gotten pretty good at listening and trying to validate her feelings.
We have a normal relationship most days (albeit somewhat distant), and I have taken to not always responding and being very limited in communications when I am away. However, then every so often she drops "we need to see what happens to us", "I need to leave here", "I do not want to be here" etc. I now do not react to this and see that I am mainly the one breaking off interaction.
In terms of her challenges (these have been themes across the years), I think the key ones are: 1) She wants to work and feel like an adult and like someone who is being taken seriously and in line with who she should be 2) She wants to be independent and not end up like her mother who wanted to leave at some point but could not given her economic dependence 3) She wants to have an interesting life and be surrounded by interesting people. Where we moved to, being in a more cosmopolitan environment is more difficult given the distance and logistics
Apart from bringing up that she regrets all the choices that she made and should never have had children and is not made for this life, she often brings up issues from her childhood. Her father was pretty controlling, in particular using money as a mechanism. Her mother apparently used her as a confidante when she was 10 years old, speaking about issues she was having with her husband (which might have included an affair on her part). Recently she has mentioned at times that she will only really feel free when her parents are gone.
I have tried very hard to never be controlling and to pick up my part at home and give her time to be on her own. Neglecting myself even before the pandemic, which contributed to wearing down the relationship. However, I think her deep unhappiness about not having a career and being able to use her brain / make money ate away at her to an extent that I just did not appreciate.
The actions that I have taken have reduced friction in our relationship (no more fighting for the past month), but she is still all over the place (this includes her telling me one day she wants to move to a city she has been to once, the next day that we need to make a five year plan where we will go together and the next that she should leave with the kids straight away. While being unable to handle the kids on her own at the moment, which is fair given logistics and the demands of a special needs child).
My objective (similar to others on here) is to keep my family together and rekindle our relationship. I have started setting small goals towards this: 1) Get her more involved with household tasks and activities with the children again (she has withdrawn a lot from them, and they notice) 2) Get her to come along on family holidays over Easter, even if it is staying with my family (which is harder) 3) Getting her to invite me to do something together (just her and me, e.g. a drink or a film)
Where I would appreciate some advice - I am being very kind and picking up a lot at home, with the kids etc. Does it make sense to be firmer and insist with her that she does certain things? For example, she does not have any income (and money as a family is a bit tight), but she keeps overspending. And then does not have any solutions and comes to me. Given her past with being under the control of her father and the deep set trauma around not having her own work/income, do I push her on getting a job? I think it would help her to have something that she needs to do (and take her mind of blaming me, potentially).
Are there any other ideas / suggestions on little things that I could change or try?
Also one question: I am struggling to get her engaged around some of the consequences of her behaviour, e.g. compromising the financial situation of the family etc. Is it worth pushing counselling (e.g. if I get her debt settled, insist on her doing that with me) - or is this something to hold off on? When I mentioned it before she (apart from once in a brief comment) was opposed.
I would be careful not to over exert yourself in trying to please her, she might see it as coming off as desperate or like a last ditch attempt, she seems very confused as to what she wants and doing things for her will possibly have the impact of pushing her away. I would be very careful with the financial aspect of it, when they get irrational they use spending and experiences as a way to give them temporary pleasure without regard for long term health of relationship. By what you explain it seems that anything you do will not alter her perception of the situation, she's fighting her inner turmoil and anything you do will be seen as an annoyance.
Another round of spontaneously getting told how "great" I am this afternoon. Started off by her talking about switching therapist (which is a good thing). The only positive thing she says she took from the therapist is that she always put everyone else first, and not herself. Which has some reality to it, but is far from the entire story.
Then she started talking about needing change - a job and going into the City a couple of days a week will not cut it. She does not want to be in an office. She wants an interesting life - when I ask what that would look like I get told "you are not able to understand". We have been there before. She wants to do big things to the house but there is not enough money. Me not having been promoted (again recently; pretty annoying) is part of the fact that she cannot have an interesting life (huh?), and why I cannot be part of it.
The thing that I am a bit concerned about is the statement that small incremental changes will not cut it, but she needs to blow everything up. Which I have read in some MLC / depression articles, so she may have read that somewhere.
I do not think she will do anything crazy given that she keeps bringing up that she wants to be with the children and take them along.
Thank you Catman for your thoughts, I appreciate it. Will try to keep a healthy distance and refrain from advice etc., which is hard at times given that it hurts to see her suffer like this.
DnJ, I have been thinking about your post. Time and patience is what I am aiming for - irrespective of where this ends. I want her to not end up in a worse situation than she currently is, and it feels like she might be heading there if I am not around tbh.
Just remember a lot of therapists will get stuck in a feedback loop, it's easier for them to scratch surface level stuff and be reassuring and encouraging in their clients path, telling the patient that they need to confront the hard problems won't keep them in business as long. Someone who is undergoing this process will ignore the majority of useful feedback and focus squarely on validating words from the therapist. They in a ways become a gentle enabler. Just be observant of how she acts immediately after therapy sessions and it will generally be very indicative on what the focus of the sessions are. In the meanwhile keep improving yourself mentally and physically and be the best version of yourself. Do not do it for her or make it seem like you are doing it for her, this will in her mind create a contrast of the life she could have with you and without you. The more you try to protect her or stop her from making mistakes the more she will rebel, be cautious still with the financial aspect as any new debts and spending will become marital debt in your current circumstances. It's really hard to do whats best for her, but think of it this way. When you were growing up and your parents said no to you but did it for your own good, did that teach you valuable life lessons and make you a better person or not. A parent who spoils their child is trying to get instant gratification but the one who makes the hard choice of teaching a hard lesson will be over time seen as the better parent.
Hopefully we all come out of this better people and with our desired outcomes. On the bright side I'm not sure where you are but try to enjoy the upcoming weather and have nature work it's miracles in healing you and giving you hope. Spring is a sign of rebirth after all
Hey LB23. I'm glad you found your way to this forum. It sounds like you're doing some good, initial work on examining your contributions to how your M got to this point. I've similarly been dealing with a MLC spouse and can relate to much of what you're describing.
As others have suggested, the only person you can control is yourself. You didn't break your spouse; you can't fix her. Work on yourself solely for the purposes of your own improvement - this will make you more attractive in general, help bolster your confidence, and benefit your kids most.
Regarding goals like having your W join you on trips to see family or spend time alone together with you - I hate to say it but I recommend abandoning those goals for now. As an earlier poster suggested, you need to give your W lots of time and space. She can't miss you you're always around, nor can she realize that you're not the problem in her life. As long as you're around, she can pin the blame on you for why her life isn't going as she'd like it to. When things don't work out and you're also not there, "maybe" she'll see beyond blaming you.
Also, in general accommodating or enabling a spouse's behavior (like not performing an equitable share of chores, childcare, etc.) isn't a good idea from what I've read, at least if/when someone may have an underlying mental health issue. I can see in the short-term picking up a bit more than your fair share because, to me, that happens in marriage (one spouse might shoulder a higher workload than the other and vice versa). Only you can determine what's reasonable in your situation. And, if you're not seeing an individual therapist, I hope you'll consider doing so. They can be a great sounding board for these things.
You're off to a good start. Do pick up Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy and make time to absorb the content. It can help when you are uncertain about what to do/say and may not be able to leverage this board. Good luck!
My objective (similar to others on here) is to keep my family together and rekindle our relationship. I have started setting small goals towards this: 1) Get her more involved with household tasks and activities with the children again (she has withdrawn a lot from them, and they notice) 2) Get her to come along on family holidays over Easter, even if it is staying with my family (which is harder) 3) Getting her to invite me to do something together (just her and me, e.g. a drink or a film)
I understand and empathize and agree with your desire to keep your family together and hopefully rekindle things with W. However, focus on you.
These listed goals are about you trying to change W and/or her behaviour. You cannot control her, you can only control you - your thoughts, actions, and reactions.
Attempting to get W more involved will have detrimental results to your desired outcome. She will push, and push hard, against such efforts. Because:
Originally Posted by Lb23
Her father was pretty controlling, in particular using money as a mechanism. Her mother apparently used her as a confidante when she was 10 years old, speaking about issues she was having with her husband (which might have included an affair on her part). Recently she has mentioned at times that she will only really feel free when her parents are gone.
Don’t step into such a controlling role. You don’t want to reinforce any projection from W, nor reflect her Dad’s controlling behaviours that she rebelling and growing up from.
Time and space.
Space is more emotional space than physical space. Though being apart is usually needed for them to get the time to feel. Give emotional space for her to find and feel her hurt, pain, anxiety, depression, guilt, shame, regret, etc.
Focusing on you provides that needed time and space. Focusing/GAL also gives you something to do instead of pinning away. It fosters your growth and allows you to do your inner work.
Counterintuitively, focusing on W and the M sabotages the chances of the very thing you’re working to save.
Originally Posted by Lb23
In terms of her challenges (these have been themes across the years), I think the key ones are: 1) She wants to work and feel like an adult and like someone who is being taken seriously and in line with who she should be 2) She wants to be independent and not end up like her mother who wanted to leave at some point but could not given her economic dependence 3) She wants to have an interesting life and be surrounded by interesting people. Where we moved to, being in a more cosmopolitan environment is more difficult given the distance and logistics
Yes, those are likely pretty accurate. And beyond your control. W has to grow and step up.
So what about goals and challenges for you? Things that are within your control.
Things like:
My objective (similar to others on here) is to keep my family together and give myself the best chance at rekindling our relationship. Some small goals towards this: 1) Be more, and continue to be, involved with the children and their activities. 2) Do my share of the household tasks. Do not be super husband and try to do it all. 3) Invite W to come along on some family times. Be non-expectant either way as to result. Accept yes or no equally. 4) Do things be myself. Get use to, and be ok with, doing stuff by myself. (Example, go out for a steak diner alone.)
Originally Posted by Lb23
Where I would appreciate some advice - I am being very kind and picking up a lot at home, with the kids etc. Does it make sense to be firmer and insist with her that she does certain things? For example, she does not have any income (and money as a family is a bit tight), but she keeps overspending. And then does not have any solutions and comes to me. Given her past with being under the control of her father and the deep set trauma around not having her own work/income, do I push her on getting a job? I think it would help her to have something that she needs to do (and take her mind of blaming me, potentially).
Some of this is addressed above. The main course here is to let her feel her consequences of her life’s choices.
Do not insist she does anything particular. She’s a grown woman, an adult. Treat her as such. You certainly can have a rational discussion of finances and over spending, however I’m pretty sure that will lead to much eye rolling and tuning you out. Still, ensure the present financial situation has been laid out clearly, then enforce boundaries/consequences to behaviours and actions. You don’t have to solve her problems. Let her find a solution.
If she is considering finding employment, certainly support and encourage such an effort. You might even consider suggesting such, though usually a MLCer pushes against suggestions from the LBS, regardless of how positive or worthy those suggestions may be. They seldom follow through with their own ideas; things from the LBS are pretty much discarded immediately.
Originally Posted by Lb23
Also one question: I am struggling to get her engaged around some of the consequences of her behaviour, e.g. compromising the financial situation of the family etc. Is it worth pushing counselling (e.g. if I get her debt settled, insist on her doing that with me) - or is this something to hold off on? When I mentioned it before she (apart from once in a brief comment) was opposed.
Nope. Especially if she is in crisis.
A MLCer is driven emotionally. Logic and reason do not matter to them. They are driven by their feelings. And they feel depressed.
Overspending is a very common running behaviour. Keep an eye on your accounts! Plenty of MLcers have burnt through the couple’s life savings in a futile effort to stave off their torment.
If things are such that you need financial protection and/or security - get it!
If her spending is on a destructive path to your future and your ability to care for self and the kids - do what you need to do. You have a lot of life left in front of you.
To that end, speak with a lawyer. Document everything! Keep track of what you do, and what she does. Consider removing your half of joint savings/assets and placing them in your own accounts. Have your pay checks deposited into your account. Then transfer monies to joint account for family expenses.
This is within your control and not trying to control W.
Originally Posted by Lb23
she started talking about needing change - a job and going into the City a couple of days a week will not cut it. She does not want to be in an office. She wants an interesting life - when I ask what that would look like I get told "you are not able to understand". We have been there before. She wants to do big things to the house but there is not enough money. Me not having been promoted (again recently; pretty annoying) is part of the fact that she cannot have an interesting life (huh?), and why I cannot be part of it.
Counterintuitively, less is more.
Simply validate her feelings. Do not engage or argue with her. You see how she belittled you with “you are not able to understand”? She is trying/crafting justifications for her behaviour, actions, and mostly her feelings. Don’t step in the trap. You cannot reason with her, for her “reasons” change as quickly as her feelings do.
Originally Posted by Lb23
The thing that I am a bit concerned about is the statement that small incremental changes will not cut it, but she needs to blow everything up.
That is precisely the feelings that their ceaseless torment causes. They feel that blowing everything up is their only way out.
If she’s in crisis, you cannot prevent it, nor can you speed it along. She will progress/proceed along her path and at her pace. It has next to nothing to do with you.
Focus on you. Give time and space. This does not propel her faster. It allows her to maybe work through her stuff more calmly. It’s a long road though. You’ll need to drink a lot of STFU smoothies, as she will turn up the heat on you.
If you can’t figure out the acronym STFU, I’ll spot you a few letters Shut The F___ Up. lol. I drank a lot of those smoothies. Remember, fighting begets fighting. And she will want to paint you as the bad guy.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I do not think she will do anything crazy given that she keeps bringing up that she wants to be with the children and take them along.
I understand. And your statement is very true and accurate - you do not think she will…
Let go your preconceived ideas of her behaviour. From my experience, a person in crisis will do anything and everything. One of the LBS’ biggest hurdle is continuing like their spouse is the same person. A person in crisis is the opposite of who they once were. They will do anything to run from their torment. Anything! Spending, drinking, drugs, gambling, affairs, illegal/illicit activities, and so on. All in attempts to feel young and alive again.
My XW blew up her life in a grand exodus at Thanksgiving Day supper. Without any warning nor previous discussion, she stood up after the meal and a great family day of croquet and card games, and announced to me, our four kids, my son’s girlfriend, and my parents, that she could no longer live with me. That, “you DnJ, get the house, the cars, and the kids; unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.”
She threw her own kids away. Right there. At the table. In front of everyone.
Well, complete pandemonium erupted. I was totally shocked and apparently went white as a sheet. One son had breathing problems, a few kids and my Dad got furious, some were crying, it was bedlam.
Anyhow, dear W/Mom furthered things with the announcement of her boyfriend. She said she was willing to risk never seeing the children again for her chance at happiness.
Three hours after dropping that bomb onto the empty pumpkin pie place, she left. She walked down the 1400 foot lane to the waiting OM. She moved in with him that night. By the way, OM is basically my neighbour to the south of me. She ran 3/4 of a mile away.
That was it. 3 hours. From bomb drop to gone. 2 months later a separation agreement was signed. 9 months later a divorce was filed by her. 6 more months for the courts to get to it, sign it, and decree it.
She was a fanatic Mom! And an equally fantastic wife. She loved our four kids. She ran a daycare out of our house. And she burnt it all to the ground.
Granted my XW is a tad on the extreme end of the spectrum of MLCer. Still, 26 years of marriage, 31 years together, four kids, and all that - it mattered not. She was consumed.
Originally Posted by Lb23
DnJ, I have been thinking about your post. Time and patience is what I am aiming for - irrespective of where this ends. I want her to not end up in a worse situation than she currently is, and it feels like she might be heading there if I am not around tbh.
I get it. I really do. (((Hugs)))
Her situation, her heading, her destination - whatever it may be, and however temporary it may be - has nothing to do with you.
I’ve been there. It is aggravating to have answers and solution for her, answers and solution she won’t listen to, nor hear. Answers and solutions she would actively go against.
Focus on you. Dig for patience. Be kind and cordial. And give her to the man upstairs. You cannot fix her, for you didn’t break her.
There is hope. Always. For as long as there is love, there is hope.
The future is unknown and unwritten. Let it unfurl on its time. Focus on you and the kids.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Sorry you found yourself here. All I can say is buckle up and dont think there is anything they are incapable of doing. I wish you the best of luck on healing you and then the marriage. I got the "DR" book". I read it and it helps to calm my brain from the craziness.
Last edited by job; 03/05/2405:51 PM. Reason: Removed reference to another site as well as referenced book created by that site owner.
I am really grateful for your perspectives - this is helping me a lot. I had taken to speaking to my family a lot but it kind of feels like a validation exercise for myself. So I have consciously cut down from speaking about my struggles with my relationship.
I have seen some change in her in the last two weeks in doing more again in the household. Although she is still a big up and down emotionally. I hear you guys on the goals that I had shared and will revisit those to leave more time; I suspect that she may actually want to come along to my family over Easter as she does want to get out of the UK for a bit, and wants to be with the kids.
Living in a logistically a bit more challenging area, I have taken to doing sports in the evenings. I think I will try to go out once or twice a month again and do things for myself. Some travelling to meet my friends would be nice; I have noticed that a lot of my friendships have gone dormant or gotten lost and her blowing up the marriage showed me that I had put myself in a bit of an odd position. Away from most of my friends and family, so need to rebuild life here.
DnJ, I am so sorry to read your story. This must have been such an emotional journey to go through - despite sensing a lot of growth behind what you write. One of the interesting things that you wrote is about MLCers not following through on things. I think she really struggles with this, and this has been a part of her life even before we met. She is very talented and smart, but somehow things never quite worked out for her; or she shifted tacks to a completely different path.
The physical space bit is the hard part in our situation. I am trying to manage our funds so that she can go away on her own every 6-8 weeks which may give her some of that. It is hard knowing what is right or not, so I am trying to keep out of her "headspace" when we are both home and not be the first to engage.
I wonder what may snap her out again of her crisis. From reading whatever I could find about this, it sounds like she will need to walk her path. Which may mean that she does not find back to a more sensible mindset where she is able to look at certain parts of her life with a more rational eye.
In all of this, she keeps making longer term plans what to do to the house, where the kids will go to school etc. And then the next moment I get to hear something that makes me think if she had a sip from the coo coo tree. It is such an odd experience...
Bit of an odd day again - she is better after having been pretty ill. I have a bad cold myself but had to do all of the childcare over the past 5 days on my own. This morning she had some friends over and then went back to withdrawing from childcare. Granted they were difficult, but statements like "I dont want to do this" and swearing is not on in front of the kids.
She is frustrated that she is not making any progress regarding work; old contacts not responding to her and she is lost about what to do. Miffed about something that another former colleague did. Says that why bother doing anything. Talked about wanting a different life again. Whatever that means.
I stayed neutral and validating, which I have gotten better at. She does seek to talk to me a lot, but remains emotionally quite distant.
I was a bit surprised this evening by her not doing anything despite knowing that I am ill. The kitchen needed cleaning, the living room looks like a bomb went off and both kids were awake and demanding. She retreated to her room and was reading. She did more in the past two weeks before she got ill, it would be nice if she does not fall back into that habit.
The physical space bit is the hard part in our situation. I am trying to manage our funds so that she can go away on her own every 6-8 weeks which may give her some of that.
I’d suggest to ease up on trying to fix or solve her. She’s a woman of early 40s. If she wishes to go away every 6-8 weeks, she can arrange her logistics and funding.
Remember, depression is ever present. She may not want to go away. And then she will. Ping ponging back and forth is exceedingly common. Let her do whatever heavy lifting is required for her path. Besides, if things go awry with a trip, and you are involved, who do you think is going to get blamed?
Focus on you and the kids.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I wonder what may snap her out again of her crisis. From reading whatever I could find about this, it sounds like she will need to walk her path. Which may mean that she does not find back to a more sensible mindset where she is able to look at certain parts of her life with a more rational eye.
Snapping out of a crisis and healing, is very very rare. Usually such an abrupt about-face would signify they did not deal with their traumas. In which case, a return to a crisis would be very likely. And a crisis is much worse the next going around. Slow steady progress is the best path towards exiting a crisis successfully.
A crisis was slowly entered and it is slowly exited. It takes 18-24 months for one to enter their crisis. This is a silent descent. Mostly no one, not even themselves, will realize the slow progression towards the abyss. Looking back you now likely can see some signs and behavioural changes in W. Wee clues and such that at the time you just didn’t recognize. Perfectly normal, as most of us had nothing to do with a crisis before now.
The exit is just a slow. Lots of withdrawal, lots of dark depression and brooding, before their find acceptance of their past and the deeds they’ve done.
However, before the exit, is the heart of the crisis - running. This running is the longest of the stages. Most MLCers do run their course, eventually exiting. Although some do indeed get very lost and run for a long time.
Originally Posted by Lb23
She does seek to talk to me a lot, but remains emotionally quite distant.
Yes, her emotions are cranked to eleven. She simply does not have the bandwidth for you or anyone or anything, else.
Do not try to bridge that apparent emotional gap. That will be perceived as pressure, and MLCers run from pressure. Besides, that emotional buffer is a good thing. Most are very angry and blame the LBS. Remain kind and cordial.
Originally Posted by Lb23
In all of this, she keeps making longer term plans what to do to the house, where the kids will go to school etc. And then the next moment I get to hear something that makes me think if she had a sip from the coo coo tree. It is such an odd experience...
Welcome to the club. Definitely an odd experience. Like I said, confusion is one of the major hallmarks of a crisis.
Before my experiences, I had the default humorous Hollywood version of a midlife crisis - guy buys red Ferrari and gets new girlfriend. The truth of a crisis is not wildly known or understood or believed. A crisis is truly a horrible thing.
Within all this, is a golden opportunity for you. Embrace it. Become.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you for this DnJ. It is a kafkaesque experience for me and I realise how much I have to learn.
I have worked hard to let go. However, there is a lot of hurt that will take me time to get over. No matter what I do, there are things where I am being pushed into living a life that I do not want to live. Which I will need to think about if there is ever any reconciliation - I read MrP's thread and it struck me that there is an element of where I am asking myself if I do want to be with someone with these behaviours.
The time element is an interesting reflection. I realised that she was unhappy for a long time. I thought that she would be happier coming back to the UK. Which she might be, or not. Reflecting on my children and the fact that I do really care for her (despite the above), I have resolved to give this time. Recognising that it may take long and get worse - which is something that I am still getting my head around.
I need to still get more out of the mindset of doing things / thinking of things that "fix" her as you put it. I have started detaching more, but this is something not natural to me as I am a kind person. However, I am getting around to the concept of doing things that seem unnatural to me.
Thank you for the advice and insights. It is helping a lot.
Over the past 6 weeks, I have been in the "letting go" mode. I am cordial but brief; do not engage in extensive conversation; and validate her while not engaging her when she brings up our relationship or goes on a tangent about wanting to move out etc.
She does come and talk to me and seek my view or advice on various things. We have long conversations on a regular basis, but I have now started withdrawing from that as well reflecting on some of the other threads that I have been reading. However, I would like to ask you guys for your opinion on this. How far should I go in detaching and not engaging her? I am looking to not be constantly available for her as I am no longer the supporting pillar that I have been. Where is a good balance in still speaking, as it is a bit odd sitting at the dinner table and not having a conversation.
For the time being, she seems content to be on her own, apart from the occasional descent into misery when she reflects on her situation. Over the week-end, she had another rant about wanting to have a different life and to get away from the house. The next day she was talking about getting someone to built bookshelves for her to be able to take her books out of boxes where they are still stored.
Mostly we are at a cordial level, and she has even asked how I am a couple of times last week. I do still pick up most of the childcare (just got back from my inlaws where I have taken to staying with both kids one night a week to free her up). She has started to do a bit more around the house again but the balance is still with me. I have read conflicting opinions around this - there are some perspectives that it makes sense for one of the spouses to pick up more for a while, others are quite strict in terms of holding the one in crisis to account as well and getting them to do their share. What do you guys think is the right balance here?
DnJ, I am interested in your perspective from how "kind and cordial" in this context.
I am still trying to figure out how to reestablish my life. My initial struggle showed me that I had also not been happy with my life for a long time. However, my network of friends and family is in continental Europe and not the UK - and now I am stuck here for the time being. I set myself goals that I have partially turned into action so far. Lots of sport (which helps me being zen and look good), new clothes and styling (still need to be slightly more on it) - that has worked. However, striking up new friendships is not easy; and I am often too tired after work and the kids to have the energy to go out on my own or meet friends in London. I feel like I have fallen into constantly working and not being able to shut off. Which is somethign that I will need to work on.
No matter what I do, there are things where I am being pushed into living a life that I do not want to live.
Yep.
I too was pushing onto a path I did not choose. A life did not want to lead. Years later, looking back, I’d not give it up.
Have faith and trust the process.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I need to still get more out of the mindset of doing things / thinking of things that "fix" her as you put it. I have started detaching more, but this is something not natural to me as I am a kind person. However, I am getting around to the concept of doing things that seem unnatural to me.
Oh yes, it definitely is counterintuitive, is seemingly non-natural, and goes against our default behaviour. Most significant growth and lesson will do so.
Detachment is when your emotions are no longer uncontrollable dragged around by W’s behaviour, words, and/or actions. You still feel, just not dragged about. You regain control over self. Control is the big part of detachment.
The next step of this part of the journey is indifference. That comes after detachment, and is when your feelings towards W become muted or attenuated. You will feel numb, feel almost nothing towards her, about her, or for any of her actions, words, or behaviours.
This state of indifference is perfectly normal and part of the grief process. And, like all feelings, or the absence thereof, is temporary. Indifference will unwind. Your feelings do return.
I promote a caution for folks when they enter indifference: Nature abhors a vacuum, and other feelings, temptations, etc, will loom larger than they really are, when contrasted against the void. It is an illusion, things are not as they feel. Limit major life decisions based upon such fleeting feelings. Remember, this void is temporary, yet it will feel otherwise.
There is a strange peace, a welcomed peace, being clear from all that noise, cacophony, and confusion from W. While within this numbness, this reprieve from those associative emotions, lay an opportunity to discover you. Your deep beliefs, values, and convictions. Those tenets that make you tick. This is your best time to do your inner work.
Look inside and find you. Your beliefs, bias, prejudice, defaults, and such.
Strengthen that which serves. Craft that which you aspire to. Discard and/or alter that which does not serve.
This cataloging, crafting, and organizing of self and your convictions pays huge dividends. This is one of the golden opportunities that comes from walking this most unwanted and non-chosen path. Most folks never get, or embrace, such an opportunity in their life. Making the most of this hand you’ve be dealt, is totally within your control.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I have started detaching more, but this is something not natural to me as I am a kind person.
A suggestion. Remove the word “but”.
Often this wee word, but, is utilized in justifications for us not doing something or delaying an action which we know we should take. “But” crafts an exception to the rule, a loophole for us. Another problem is, your mind is always listening and will craft your reality as you ask it to.
“But” conjoins two ideas - in this case detachment and your kindness. Such conjoining, crafts belief inside you, which means you believe you have to now be unkind to detach, which makes it much more difficult to achieve. Use a period instead.
I have started detaching more. I find detachment something not natural to me. It seems to go against me being a kind person.
Separate things. Can be dealt with separately.
- Good for you detaching more.
- Yes, detachment is something we have little experience with. Especially with an event so large and disruptive to our lives.
- Detachment, and indifference, come easier to those with a kind and compassionate heart. It is highly counterintuitive, like how it feels/seems unnatural, as you have not had reason to experience this at such a magnitude. There is a profound kindness and love in letting go.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I have been in the "letting go" mode.
Perfect.
How does that make you feel? Better or bitter? Kindness and compassion. Yes?
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am cordial but brief;
Why “but”?
I am cordial and brief.
You said “but” because of some feeling/belief inside you. Discover why and what that is.
Originally Posted by Lb23
[I] do not engage in extensive conversation; and validate her while not engaging her when she brings up our relationship or goes on a tangent about wanting to move out etc.
Keep it up.
Note. It’s validating her feelings, not her or her behaviour. You validate her feelings, without condoning her less than stellar choices.
Originally Posted by Lb23
How far should I go in detaching and not engaging her?
All the advice is first and foremost for you. It also gives you the best chance for your marriage.
So, the short answer is, detach and limit engaging with her, as much as you need.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am looking to not be constantly available for her as I am no longer the supporting pillar that I have been. Where is a good balance in still speaking, as it is a bit odd sitting at the dinner table and not having a conversation.
W has fired, or mostly fired you as her emotional support pillar. Let her feel that. She needs to feel that as well, by the way.
Let her mostly lead the conversations. You can certainly initiate a conversation instead of sitting silently. Though, most times a person in crisis needs space. Lots of space. So I’d more just spark up possible conversations with more a statement instead of pressuring questions. Just breaking the silence a bit, just to see if she wants to say anything. A “here you are”, as you place a plate in front of her for example. She may thank you, she may even continue on to some topic. Although, likely there’ll be no thank you and she’ll say nothing. Follow her lead. Her silence is no big deal, have no expectations either way.
Originally Posted by Lb23
For the time being, she seems content to be on her own, apart from the occasional descent into misery when she reflects on her situation. Over the week-end, she had another rant about wanting to have a different life and to get away from the house. The next day she was talking about getting someone to built bookshelves for her to be able to take her books out of boxes where they are still stored.
Mostly we are at a cordial level, and she has even asked how I am a couple of times last week. I do still pick up most of the childcare (just got back from my inlaws where I have taken to staying with both kids one night a week to free her up). She has started to do a bit more around the house again but the balance is still with me. I have read conflicting opinions around this - there are some perspectives that it makes sense for one of the spouses to pick up more for a while, others are quite strict in terms of holding the one in crisis to account as well and getting them to do their share. What do you guys think is the right balance here?
Do whatever is needed for the kids. Always!
And yes, that will likely be a disproportionate share. That’s ok.
As for the household stuff. Do what is required in the common areas. Leave W’s bedroom and her art studio for her. If she takes dishes into her room, leave them. Same for her laundry. She is accountable and responsible for those areas.
If house work gets too much for you. Hire a housekeeper.
A person in crisis is like a teenager. Treat them as such. (Having lived through raising four teens, I now see things differently than I did before. ) You will have little success in making W, or a teen, do anything they don’t want to. You cannot force W to clean up after herself. So, you just close the door to her room and her mess. (I did that so much with my daughter. lol. Perfectly healthy part of growing up.)
Originally Posted by Lb23
DnJ, I am interested in your perspective from how "kind and cordial" in this context.
Treat her like a roommate.
Kind and cordial is for you too. Mostly for you actually. No matter which direction your situation goes, you were kind and polite. That defines, and is defining/crafting you. It’s not being a doormat, you still employ required boundaries for disrespectful behaviour. It’s just being the best version of you.
Like with teenager kids. It does no good to blow your stack and get all mad or whatever. Detachment, with a mix of indifference, is truly a kind and compassionate thing.
No walking on eggshells. Focus on you and the kids. Be kind and cordial, even invite W along for the odd family event. Yet still, letting her be.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am often too tired after work and the kids to have the energy to go out on my own or meet friends
Be kind to your self too. Make time for you. A housekeeper might alleviate some of your chores/burden.
Hope you and the kids have a wonderful Sunday.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
this is helpful to read, thank you. I have been wondering about some numbness that I feel - while also still recognising that this is not what I want for my life. I have a lot of thinking and growing to do in the coming months / couple of years. On the big decisions: I understand what you are saying, and I am staying well clear of those. It will be a while and I need to do a lot of work to figure out where I will take my life from here.
I have started doing more things for myself, doing a lot of exercise and sorting out things in the house that had been left standing around since we moved in. It feels good to see some progress and shaping a space that I do want to live in, as I will still be here for a while.
I keep giving her a lot of space, but also softly establishing some boundaries that she infringed upon initially. In particular, I need to be able to do my work and she has to accept that while we depend solely on my income.
There is a bit that I really struggle with, which will require some addressing in the future. In moving back to the UK, she wanted this house - which I thought would make her happy as it was her dream place. It is not easy to get rid off at close to the price we paid (I would be able to take the loss if we sold at some point. She would not). She also has no income, and I am not sure if/when she will get herself in a position to earn money. And we have our kids to think about. If at some point she does open up to reconciliation, this is something that I do want to address. Her behaviour risked blowing up much more than just leaving. Even if it has (probably) not gone to the extent that others on here have experience to date.
Plan for now is to focus on exercising, establishing more social contacts and doing the occasional thing that interests me. Plus spend lots of time with the kids. I am going to go to Burgundy over my birthday weekend this year with some friends - something to look forward to.
One more thing of note - my mum is visiting and my wife told her that in everything, the children come first and then herself. This is not quite in line with how much she has withdrawn, but may keep her from engaging in more extreme behaviours.
I have been struggling yesterday and today. The totally illogical choices that she has made even before she announced the end of our relationship just do not make any sense at all.
She appears to have settled for something she told me fairly early on "why can we not just live together as friends in the house"; "keep the house for the children" etc. She has now moved away from trying to find a job and make any money for the time being. And (while struggling with the "mundanity" of family life and childcare), she does want the kids around.
I am still observing if my going more distant will have any effect. I am staying well clear of speaking about the relationship and not engaging much with her overall (maybe need to work a bit on not being too "distant", hard to get the balance right). I am planning going away with friends over my birthday weekend next month, and trying to fit in little things that I do for myself without the kids.
I am not a a place yet where I can cleanly come to terms with my relationship being over. Separation for us just does not work economically and logistically - shared childcare does not work for me given my job, and she has no income. Her parents would go nuts if they found out and not accept this at all (she has not told them anything, which makes for an odd dynamic with me being there a lot with the kids and not her). At some point, there will need to still be a rational conversation and she will need to make choices. However, when will this point be given the balance with pushing her away?
Secondly, I have been reading more about attraction and there appears to be contradicting guidance. There is the distancing / detachment, and then there is trying to "softly" reconnect by working on communication, doing fun things together etc. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Secondly, I have been reading more about attraction and there appears to be contradicting guidance. There is the distancing / detachment, and then there is trying to "softly" reconnect by working on communication, doing fun things together etc. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
You are going to test any new behavors and see if it "works". "What Works" has many different defintions.
Go hit the gym 3+ times a week. Control what you eat. Learn behaviors that women in gerneral like. Drop those that they don't. The list goes on and on.
Read the art of seduction. Then keep reading other books. Watch youtube.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thank you - I have already been hitting the gym hard for months even before and results are showing. Bought some new clothes and still looking at more. Even got a compliment from one of the female friends of my wife's today while she was there.
I bought the book that you mentioned and am busy reading it. Need to look a bit more into my behaviours around her and look how I start drawing her out from behind her defensive walls.
She remains distant towards me but appears for the time being to no longer question the family unit, which she did before. - She came out on an outing with me and the kids today - She is coming with us on Easter holidays to my family (even if she feels uncomfortable as she knows they are aware) - She looked into family summer holidays on her own after having pushed back 6 weeks ago when I brought it up - She is making some longer-term around the house and even the family potentially moving
She did speak to me a fair bit today to get my advice regarding a friend whom she is struggling with, and about getting a coach to help her in setting up her own business. She needs money for this and I have been supportive as I do want her to be able to get to an independent position where she can take care of herself. I am a bit confused on the balance between being a friend and establishing some level of consequence for being "sacked".
Booked the trip I mentioned the last time. Looking at spending more time with single friends, and have reached out to a couple of female friends to get perspectives around relationships, behaviours, etc
Hey LB. Good work on the GAL front. Keep building your portfolio of "things to do" and over time it just becomes a natural habit of things you enjoy, that keep your mind busy, and improve your life on a few dimensions.
You talk about "drawing her out from behind her defensive walls" and, from what I've read about your situation, that feels a bit premature to me. We often talk here about first and completely dropping the rope (letting go of trying to control or influence your spouse, the relationship, trying to drive a R). I'd suggest there is some work to be done to focus just on you and your kids. Let W do what she's going to do in response to that. MWD also talks about "acting as if" you're doing fine, moving forward, etc. with your life, irrespective of what W does. This is where (if it is going to happen) W may start to get curious about the "new" person you've become, the self-improvement you're demonstrating, your contentment, and other things that can be seductive.
DnJ gave me some good advice about events like those you describe and hopefully, you're already following it. But if not, be sure that you're just sharing what you and the kids will do and leaving the door open for her to opt in or not. Be unconcerned if she chooses not to join you and, if she does join you, be positive and avoid reading too much into it for now. Just live in the moment and soon perhaps you'll piece together lots of positive moments with any luck.
Lastly, regarding being "friends" or helping financially with getting a coaching business up and running, I often refer to myself as having been "fired" from being a husband as long as the D is pending. I try to avoid doing things that are "benefits" of being a spouse and even one of my friends. I'm treating W more like an acquaintance in general and more concerning things involving our D13. It helps me in most cases maintain a good boundary. If you're still doing things you'd do as a husband or to the same extent, that is like letting a spouse have their cake and eat it too (cake eating).
It can be hard when you feel like your spouse might be making an effort to see if the relationship can be repaired so there are no hard and fast rules here. We LBSs can often want so badly for things to work out, to reconcile, etc. that we're at risk of seeing things too optimistically. I've found this board very helpful in that respect. Otherwise, keep up the good work!
I have been struggling yesterday and today. The totally illogical choices that she has made even before she announced the end of our relationship just do not make any sense at all.
Her reasons are couched in emotions. So, not so much totally illogical as in not made purposefully illogical, just emotionally based is all. And yes, such a path does not have as a firm grip upon logic and reason and rationale.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am still observing if my going more distant will have any effect.
Let go the rope, or be dragged. When you are watching for an effect, it shows. W will sense that. And she will perceive pressure. Be the grey rock. Kind, cordial, detached. Focus on you.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am staying well clear of speaking about the relationship and not engaging much with her overall (maybe need to work a bit on not being too "distant", hard to get the balance right).
Time and space. And lots of it.
Originally Posted by Lb23
The one constant at the moment is that she is done with me and does not want to try to reconnect (she told me over dinner in January that she thought we could try and build a bridge, but was not even sure if we were at the same river; and around 4 weeks back told me that she has no interest in trying to reconnect).
Give her what she wants. As illogical as she/that may be. She needs it. She needs her space and time to sort her stuff out. And she will take it otherwise. Pressure will drive her right out the door. Give time and space. Let her choke on it. Let her own her choices.
Originally Posted by Lb23
I am planning going away with friends over my birthday weekend next month, and trying to fit in little things that I do for myself without the kids.
Good.
Originally Posted by Lb23
Separation for us just does not work economically and logistically - shared childcare does not work for me given my job, and she has no income. Her parents would go nuts if they found out and not accept this at all (she has not told them anything, which makes for an odd dynamic with me being there a lot with the kids and not her).
None of this matters to her. Depression and pain is driving her. Remember, not logical, just emotional.
My XW threw her kids away. She literally stepped over them, Even straight armed blocked them when they tried to get a hug as she was leaving. Economically, logistically, rationally - doesn’t matter one iota to them.
Someone so consumed by “their” pain and torment, has no bandwidth or empathy for anyone else. Your W’s path is diverging, has diverged, from your path. Maybe, in time, your two paths will converge again. The best you can do, walk your path. Be your best self. Live in the light, for you and the kids.
Originally Posted by Lb23
At some point, there will need to still be a rational conversation and she will need to make choices. However, when will this point be given the balance with pushing her away?
Any sort of conversation like that will push her away. No relationship talks. Not for a good long while. Even if she starts it, be super wary and steer clear of engaging too much, or at all. Just acknowledgment and validation of her feelings. If she brings them up.
The point for such rational conversation is a long ways off right now.
Originally Posted by Lb23
Secondly, I have been reading more about attraction and there appears to be contradicting guidance. There is the distancing / detachment, and then there is trying to "softly" reconnect by working on communication, doing fun things together etc. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Do more of what works and less of what doesn’t.
You can attempt anything you like. And if the results are less than positive. If she blows up. Stop! Immediately! And do not attempt that again for a long long while.
You have already attempted several things by this point. Some begging, pleading, trying to reason with her, show her errors, justify why not to do what she is doing, and so on. None of it worked. None of it fixed her or the situation. Because…
You didn’t break her, therefore you cannot fix her.
You can only control you. Keep your side of the street clean. Be kind and cordial. Look after you and the kids. How and what and why you do and live your life matters. And might influence W along her path. The amount and success of such influence is unknowable. Yet, that doesn’t change that you should still do it. For your path is for you.
And it gives you the best chance at reconciling.
Until she feels the loss, until she turns from her path of not wanting to reconnect, your direct efforts just push her faster away. It’s very counterintuitive.
The harder you try to hold on, the more you lose. It’s most surprising what you’ll gain when you let go.
Originally Posted by Lb23
She did speak to me a fair bit today to get my advice regarding a friend whom she is struggling with, and about getting a coach to help her in setting up her own business. She needs money for this and I have been supportive as I do want her to be able to get to an independent position where she can take care of herself. I am a bit confused on the balance between being a friend and establishing some level of consequence for being "sacked".
Be careful.
Acknowledge and validate. Only.
Let her feel her choices.
She fired you from position of husband. She chose to remove you as her emotional support person. Let her feel that.
I get it. I empathize. That feels and sounds mean or cruel. It’s not! It truly is not. She needs to lay in the bed she’s made. She needs to figure herself out.
On that note, it’s not up to you to establish her consequences either. Fate, karma, the universe will look after it. You just live your life. Look after you.
Do not be a doormat. Establish and enforce boundaries for disrespectful behaviour.
You know, and stated/vented about, her illogical choices and behaviours. She’s ping ponging about from one idea/plan to the next, all trying to feel better. Give her a day/week (heck, sometimes even an hour) and she’ll be off to something new. As an example:
Originally Posted by Lb23
- She is making some longer-term around the house and even the family potentially moving
She’s all over the place. Longer-term and considering moving. Seems incongruent.
She looking for her magic bullet or quick fix. Until she looks inward, there will be no forward movement. (Of course, that applies to all of us. )
I’d be cautious investing into any scheme, or setting up a business of her’s right now. Consistent demonstrated behaviour tells the tale. Believe nothing she says, and only half of what she does.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
MWD also talks about "acting as if" you're doing fine, moving forward, etc. with your life, irrespective of what W does.
Even a notch up on this might work. Act as if you are happy to finally be free from her. You are excited about not being tied down. You are enjoying your freedom.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thank you - I have already been hitting the gym hard for months even before and results are showing. Bought some new clothes and still looking at more. Even got a compliment from one of the female friends of my wife's today while she was there.
I bought the book that you mentioned and am busy reading it. Need to look a bit more into my behaviours around her and look how I start drawing her out from behind her defensive walls.
She remains distant towards me but appears for the time being to no longer question the family unit, which she did before. - She came out on an outing with me and the kids today - She is coming with us on Easter holidays to my family (even if she feels uncomfortable as she knows they are aware) - She looked into family summer holidays on her own after having pushed back 6 weeks ago when I brought it up - She is making some longer-term around the house and even the family potentially moving
She did speak to me a fair bit today to get my advice regarding a friend whom she is struggling with, and about getting a coach to help her in setting up her own business. She needs money for this and I have been supportive as I do want her to be able to get to an independent position where she can take care of herself. I am a bit confused on the balance between being a friend and establishing some level of consequence for being "sacked".
Booked the trip I mentioned the last time. Looking at spending more time with single friends, and have reached out to a couple of female friends to get perspectives around relationships, behaviours, etc
Count how many times you used the word "she".
Your goal should be zero. Lot more of I and Me and "the kids".
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Today changed completely again. Some of the earlier posters here were unfortunately right. I had had a feeling for a bit that there was something going on and confronted her with it. No physical affair but there was/is an emotional one going on.
This is one of my red lines and I told her that I am not going to live together while she is having affairs. She told me she never has and has no intent while we are still in the same place, but emphasised that afterwards this would definitely be the case. She also sees that I am struggling (not because of our marriage but more generally because it is hard balancing everything) and she would work with me to find a financial settlement. Prior to telling her family, which is a major concern for her given that they are not accepting of this. I do believe there is no PA but the EA is likely further than she lets on - I put down that I will share with her family. She got pretty upset, accusing me of being threatening while being pretty threatening herself. I am not sure if this is deliberate as she feels that she can push me. There is probably some of that.
The one mistake I made is sounding her out if we could occasionally have sex while still living together and her setting herself up professionally. Bad on me, I should have known better. I am pretty upset with myself on this.
Later in the afternoon she became pretty aggressive again telling me why we had not separated yet and she had known we should have done so a while ago (all while not being able to do anything really today). This time I did call her out and called her parents to inform them despite her threats to blow things up even more. She did not expect this to happen and I suspect thought she could keep me from it.
Not sure where this will go. I am struggling balancing everything at the moment and today she just overstepped. There need to be some consequences now and I am not just going to be the nice husband whom she can run over. I will now distance myself from all of this. As you guys set out, focus on me and the kids.
Right now you are fighting with her a lot. You'd achieve more right now by setting your focus on being an attractive man with better things to do than argue back and forth over minutia.
It took me many months to get close to this. You may be faster or slower but I promise you that you can decide to be your own motivator or your own detractor.
PMA 24/7. Attitude-thoughts-words-actions: set these in the right direction.
What are YOU going to change?
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Yesterday did hit me quite hard though. I had not been expecting that to happen, and while she feels she is being an adult and all grown up, this is really like dealing with a snarky teenager.
I did not sleep well last night but am kind of relieved that all of this cloak and dagger stuff around her parents is over. Was a bit odd today with her going out of her way to do things in the household. Not complaining though.
Attitude - need to be optimistic, get a life. Stay out of any further relationship and separation talk. I did a lot of thinking today and I do not want to ideally spare my children the trauma of a separation. That will not work though unless I get my [censored] together and manage to not be emotionally vulnerable, even in these kinds of situations.
Plan is to keep the sports up, but now see that I get out and meet friends regularly. At the moment it feels like I am somewhat of my own enemy given that I feel like the Duracell bunny, but need to hop over that
Right now you are fighting with her a lot. You'd achieve more right now by setting your focus on being an attractive man with better things to do than argue back and forth over minutia.
It took me many months to get close to this. You may be faster or slower but I promise you that you can decide to be your own motivator or your own detractor.
PMA 24/7. Attitude-thoughts-words-actions: set these in the right direction.
Make a commitment right now to:
1) Never argue with a woman again. Women need the man to be stronger, the leader. Control your emotions. Let them vent theirs. Command respect by setting and enforcing boundaries if needed.
2) Attempt to control her. I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me. I do not share my woman (sexually) with other people.
Add anymore to the list that you want.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
So she is now hellbent on separation. Told me today that I always think too much black and white, and that we should be thinking out of the box. I have a suspicion that this means she wants me to suggest that I move out - and maybe her emotional affair or friends get to move in!?
Unfortunately will now need to consult a lawyer. I will not suggest any steps but look at protecting myself and the kids.
I think my confrontation of her on Monday brought this to the fore. Not sure if otherwise we could have coexisted for a while longer given her recent musings about holidays together etc. Now I have become even more of the horrible man she has to get rid of. I do not feel great about where this has gotten to. I could have done better...but now I am where I am and need to accept that things will not be easy for a while.
I have lost the love of my life. I am heartbroken.
Last edited by DnJ; 03/22/2403:04 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Spent the last couple of days licking my wounds and feeling sorry for myself. Cannot change what happened on Monday - pushed her further away and she is (if possible) even colder. But fundamentally nothing has changed.
She cannot get me out of the house and I am not going to leave my kids. Will check with a lawyer if I have any exposures / risks, but will otherwise return to business as usual. Give her space and focus on myself. Where relevant, enforce boundaries. Establish a routine of going out after work and on week-ends now that the days are lengthening. Try to feel good about life.
Probably in for a bit of a rougher ride in the coming weeks. Easter holidays coming up though which will give me a break with family and friends abroad. Yay
Also will definitely heed your point about not fighting again @ready. Thank you for the thoughts
You are correct. Fundamentally, nothing has changed.
Originally Posted by Lb23
her recent musings about holidays together etc. Now I have become even more of the horrible man she has to get rid of.
She’s all over the place.
You did toss a few truth darts her way (or maybe more than a few) and she did not like it, and she lashed out at you. Realize, she cannot be wrong or accountable. She cannot accept that. She must blame someone else.
She twisted you about with talk of holiday time and then became hellbent on separating. Her path is emotionally driven and consuming. And will zig zag all over the place.
Yes, her current path, trajectory, morals, and such are less than stellar. You cannot control her nor her path. She is on her journey. And you, thankfully, were not invited along.
Calling her parents and such did promote fighting. And fighting begets fighting. You can only control your thoughts, actions, and reactions.
Don’t fret, no one thing you do, or don’t do, will make or break things. Get back up. Dust off. And keep moving forward.
A few positives out of this interaction. More of the situation is out in the open. You demonstrated to W that you are not a doormat. And you realized some more places for self growth.
You’ve seen how clear it is. W is on her path.
Focus back onto you and the kids. Give lots of time and space. Have good strong boundaries. And live and love your life.
Hope you have a great weekend.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hey LB. Just checking back in. It looks like it's been a rough period and I'm sorry to see what's been up. As R2C is suggesting (by having you do things like count the number of times you're posts refer to "she"/your W), to me you focus on her is concerning. I'm hopeful you can stay on track to pivot to focus on yourself and your kids and less in reaction to your W, what she does, and what she is saying. GALing, detaching, living "as if"....all these concepts are about working on yourself - not doing things in reaction to her. That is giving away control/power to her.
I don't see outing her to her parents as helpful. Cathartic maybe and, as DnJ says, I guess it is one way to show you're not a doormat. Ultimately, I'd ask if it "helped" you achieve what it seemed like you wanted to achieve....or push the "love of your life" further away. Again, I get it. There are days when I want to unleash what I feel and what I know NOW. My W had an EA with a co-worker. I know it would be super-embarrassing if it were more public. My IC had me confront her and end it or end our marriage. She ended things with him, including sending me an email to confirm that she'd done so (so I've got "proof"). I saved it. Not to "out" her. But, as a reminder to myself she put in print that she'd followed through. By all accounts, she's truly done so. Affairs are often their own punishment for those involved. They feel shame, guilt, embarrassment, know they've broken a social and (for some) a religious norm.
This weekend, I hope you can focus on you and only you. Re-read DB and/or DR, Sandi's rules here in the forum, and other posts. Pick 10 recommendations and follow through on them as hard as you can. Keep doing it until you realize these actions are now habits and keep adding new ones. It will pay off if you stick to it, keep your emotions in check, and work on being unaffected by what W does or doesn't do. As the kids say these days, you do you!
thank you both. I have been reflecting a lot on my actions - they were ultimately emotional, selfish and have more been promoting the contrary to what I am trying to achieve.
I apologised today for my outburst. She accepted this, but later told me she is uneasy around me and would still like to see how we can separate. To me, I realised over the past couple of days (including through counseling) that the most important thing to me is to be with my children every single day.
No more actions that go against that. I love my children more than anything and will be there for them. GAL will require me pushing myself beyond what I am already doing, but that is now the next step.
Hey LB. We've all stumbled, sometimes over and over again. As you are figuring out, all you can do is reset to do better going forward. Also, keep in mind to prioritize YOU and your kids. Doing things for yourself that you find interesting, meaningful, and purposeful is important to your fulfillment. IMHO, that is as important as our kids. It's like that cliche related to what we're told to do in the event of an emergency on a plane: put your mask on first and then help others. Same here.
Why are you apologizing to someone who is having an EA on you (and your kids)?
Why are you engaging her at all?
Give yourself grace because little of this feels intuitive or natural when you are LBS.
When she says she wants to separate -- Yeah W. This situation does not work for me et all, either. I am making plans and moving ahead accordingly.
If she asks what ? I'm checking with a lawyer about my rights and options, I am separating my finances from yours, and I am going to see X, Y and Z for Easter with the kids.
Do not under any circumstances base your actions on her reactions or what you believe will be her reactions to your actions. That is controlling, manipulative, and co-dependent. If she acts cold or angry or whatever at you, so be it. Hear what she says, and validate her feelings. But do not be influenced or subordinate to them.
Don't tip toe or walk on eggshells or worry about the reaction of someone who is trampling all over your marriage by having an affair.
What are you trying to "achieve"? I still keep reading about she and her. Your goal and focus should be to save, protect, and better yourself and your kids from her boundary violations.
Paraphrasing her, what do you want out of your life? To be with someone who does not value you and your efforts for your family?
What would she need to do to in order to have a chance at another relationship with you?
Me-53 W-49 D22,D18,D15 T-Since-12/2001 Married-9/2004 She Moved Out-5/28/2010 Piecing start-04/2011 Now-together Thread http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079304
Thank you Bustorama. I have reread some of the guidance on the forum and some of what you guys have contributed on here, and it has taken on a different meaning to when I first read it.
I have been acting out of emotion too much. I thought I had this under better control by now, but I did not. One of the things I struggle with is falling back into despair and complaining, which is not helpful as we all now. I can only control myself, and need to focus on that.
It is an interesting situation to be in, where I have some figuring out to do of what I find important and want out of my life. I have started making some changes in terms of being more active and making sure to spend time at work. Building a social circle is now my next priority.
Bustorama shared so much greatness above but THIS IS ESPECIALLY GOLDEN ADVICE:
Originally Posted by bustorama
Do not under any circumstances base your actions on her reactions or what you believe will be her reactions to your actions. That is controlling, manipulative, and co-dependent. If she acts cold or angry or whatever at you, so be it. Hear what she says, and validate her feelings. But do not be influenced or subordinate to them.
Shut The F___ Up. lol. I drank a lot of those smoothies. Remember, fighting begets fighting. And she will want to paint you as the bad guy.