Went out for two non-alcoholic beers with a friend who is two months sober yesterday. This guy has engaged in some of the most self-destructive behavior you can imagine for many years: severe binge drinking, philandering, etc. I was unaware the depths to which he sank. He is financially successful but his family and personal life have suffered greatly. Late last year he decided he'd had enough and wanted to turn his life around, which he is doing with the help of intensive therapy. I am very proud of him and told him as much.
Our conversation ran far and wide, from family to work to marriage. He does not know the details of my sitch and I haven't shared specifics, but I did tell him things are not good and I'm looking to expand my social circle beyond the main group I've been hanging with the last 3 years. I'm looking forward to connecting more with him.
For as long as I've been with my W (13 years) her brothers have been my closest friends. I always considered myself fortunate to have them as BILs because we were so close and it was never forced - we hung out because we loved each other. The revelation that they knew about the PA and never told me or earnestly encouraged my W to tell me has been very hurtful and I am not in communication with them any more. As I said here in my last thread, I told one of them directly that the lying changed things between us. We've gone from hanging out multiple times per week to not hanging out at all.
However, I'm eager to not be a bitter and self righteous guy about this. In keeping with advice received here I am focused on forgiving the action but holding the person accountable. What this looks like I'm not sure yet, but these guys are my kids's uncles (and I'm theirs) and we will have a life long relationship no matter what happens in my MR. More to come.
As I type this my wife is yelling at the kids during the morning routine, which is very normal. She is a ball of stress and I fight daily not to "fix it". Things between us remain cool and I am focused on GAL and 180s.
In keeping with advice received here I am focused on forgiving the action but and holding the person accountable.
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What this looks like I'm not sure yet. , but These guys are my kids's uncles (and I'm theirs) and we will have a life long relationship no matter what happens in my MR.
Using “but”, you’re telling your mind, reinforcing the idea, that these are contrasting and do not, cannot, exist together. That is one of the bigger hurdles in why folks have trouble with finding forgiveness, IMO. Both can exist, and need to exist, together, for forgiveness to flourish.
Forgive the deed, love the person, hold them accountable for their present behaviours, and enact boundaries on disrespect.
What these relationships will look like in the future, is unknown. You have a hand in crafting that future though. What do you want it to look like? Maybe start with, how do you want it to feel? I suspect you’d like peace. Feeling (believing) there is not some outstanding debt or them owing you something. What do you have to let go of for that? What do you have to embrace?
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Using “but”, you’re telling your mind, reinforcing the idea, that these are contrasting and do not, cannot, exist together. That is one of the bigger hurdles in why folks have trouble with finding forgiveness, IMO. Both can exist, and need to exist, together, for forgiveness to flourish.
I can see the logic here but I feel I have a long way to go. It is a goal nonetheless.
Tuesday was 4 months since dday and I am certainly more centered and grounded now than I was back then. I admit there are still moments when I can't believe this all happened and continues to happen, and I am not out of the woods with regard to emotional flooding. Last week I found myself crying in private at the pain this sitch will likely inflict on my kids. I remain detached and will look for any opportunity to get out of the house and socialize. Yesterday my D6 went to a friend's house for a playdate and the friend's parents offered to bring her home when it was over. After I wrapped work I headed over to their house instead to hang out with these parents (I like them, good people). When I told W I was leaving she scoffed and rolled her eyes: "What? Why? They said they would bring her home." I didn't say anything and left her sitting on the couch starting at her phone.
I know the alien metaphor is helpful to some folks and I have leaned on it occasionally myself. However I also accept that the MR I once had (or thought I had) is dead. I take responsibility for the lack of leadership and assertiveness I showed in the past and can now see how I let my W get away with behaviors that caused her to lose respect for me. I accept that W made her own choices and I cannot fix her.
Part of the struggle for me even before dday is that W was creating this world in which she was cool, fun, and social and I was uptight and controlling. She called me a "narc" more than once in front of others and I'm sure behind my back. I do acknowledge that as her behavior became more out of control, I criticized and judged her for partying and that was interpreted as controlling. But the reality is quite different IMO. I love to socialize and meet new people. I do it all day long for work and love putting myself in situations where I don't know many people because you never know when you'll meet a new friend. In my view W conflates "being social" with drinking alcohol - she wants to be around people who want to drink, that's all. She has set the bar low. Without alcohol she won't socialize much outside of our families. Now I cringe thinking of her lifestyle over the last few years: a married mother of 3 staying out at dive bars until close, getting wasted. When we were first married she used to talk about how glad she was that we had found one another and that her bar days were over, and how sad it was to see anyone over 30 staying out late. She has become that person.
GAL this weekend: outdoor convention w the kids and a friend on Friday, spending Saturday outside with another family, kids sports on Sunday. I need to weave in some "me" time - maybe that will just be a little quiet reading at some point. Keeping up with these kids can drain me!
I do acknowledge that as her behavior became more out of control, I criticized and judged her for partying and that was interpreted as controlling.
I see you struggle a lot with what you consider to be controlling behavior. It is not unreasonable for a husband to not want his W and mother of 3 out partying to all hours of the night and sometimes not going home. Currently, I would never tolerate that behavior from a partner. What often gets lost here is for a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. Most men here including myself 10 years ago can't bring themselves to establish these types of boundaries.
You hit the nail on the head, Boat. I was always clear that I thought her behavior was out of line, but I didn't know what a boundary was or how to assert one. Instead I would just criticize her in a passive aggressive way and hope she got the message.
Even if I had known how to assert a boundary in a healthy, loving way the thought of blowing up the marriage would have never crossed my mind at the time: for many years our friends and family thought of us as "the perfect couple" and I took pride in that. The idea that we would not be married for life or that my W would lose attraction to me never crossed my mind.
Instead I would just criticize her in a passive aggressive way and hope she got the message.
What was the message you hope she got?
Originally Posted by Maturin
Even if I had known how to assert a boundary in a healthy, loving way the thought of blowing up the marriage would have never crossed my mind at the time:
Boundaries are meaningless without consequences
Originally Posted by Maturin
for many years our friends and family thought of us as "the perfect couple" and I took pride in that.
If I had a nickel for every time I read this on this forum I could retire.
Originally Posted by Maturin
The idea that we would not be married for life or that my W would lose attraction to me never crossed my mind.
That her behavior was not acceptable for anyone who wanted to be in a relationship with me and was running counter to the best interests of the family.
This is the message that has now been delivered.
The consequences of this boundary thus far have been me vacating my role of husband: we no longer socialize together and I don't provide emotional support. She is still enjoying (for now) the full benefit of my provisioning. If she does not turn around and show real remorse and do what it takes to reconcile she will only be provided with what the state says I owe her. At this moment in time I don't believe she values me or the MR enough to worry about losing it, but she is concerned with the social stigma and the kids. That is as far into her head as I care to get, and even then it's speculation. I meet with my L in two weeks.
If any good whatsoever comes of this mess it will be that I am well equipped to educate my sons and daughter on the realities of long term relationships. Yes, I am just another guy from a "perfect couple" who got cucked and embarrassed. I'll be damned if it happens to my kids.
Hey M. It sounds directionally correct for you to "up the ante" towards D as boundaries are broken. Be unyielding on that path because you deserve better. As someone said in relation to my situation, people can and do reconcile later if/when the alien releases our partners. I told my D13 that it "ain't over until a judge bangs down a gavel" and that, if W reconsiders and honors my boundaries, I'm open to resuming work on the marriage. I'm also fine moving on because I'm conident I'm doing lots of things right for myself and D13 at this stage.
It is too bad about your BILs. They are her family and often that bond trumps all others, though I have close friends who are closer to me than my step-brothers and half sister. Still, it was a betrayal of you and your trust. Ideally, they'd focus on what's best for your kids or, at worst, they'd remain neutral (don't encourage or discourage the situation).
I'm glad your expanding your social circle. One thing I'm wondering, especially given your comment about breaking down at one point, is how comfortable are you with being alone. Self-soothing is an important skill so that we don't lean too much on others for comfort. It is also a great skill to teach our kids. I hope you're investing some time to work on being comfortable on your own too.
Thanks for checking in MrP. The BIL situation is difficult and my biggest concern is that I am getting too butthurt over it. My initial feedback to them was that they were put in a terrible position and I had no hard feelings. That slowly morphed into a sense that they took sides and protected their sister. Would I have done the same? I don't know. It's for me to forgive and I'm working on it.
The larger issue is that certain friends and acquaintances knew and never said anything, one of whom I asked directly. He denied it to protect my W. Those people are easier to cut out and forget.
Valid point about being comfortable being alone. The truth is I am very ok with being alone, and a lot of my GAL is bc my default mode is to hang at home - I love to socialize but I need to take the initiative to do so.
I learned early on in this process that when the emotions well up, they need to be released. The first time I cried I was shocked at how much better I felt afterwards. Ever since then I allow myself that release.
If any good whatsoever comes of this mess it will be that I am well equipped to educate my sons and daughter on the realities of long term relationships. Yes, I am just another guy from a "perfect couple" who got cucked and embarrassed. I'll be damned if it happens to my kids.
Remember that you can't control whether your sons get cuckolded but you can do is teach them that behavior like that is unacceptable and shouldn't be tolerated.
Yesterday I took my kids and one of their friends to an outdoor expo, it was a blast. There was a trout tank so the kids each got to catch a fish, and for their friend it was the first time he had ever done that (I fish a lot with my kids but they still enjoyed it).
W came home around noon while I was out for a run, had two drinks and then left to drink elsewhere until 7. We then watched a movie as a family, but she snapped endlessly at the kids for being "too squirmy". I had planned to take all three kids for an outdoor day today and invited W along but she declined. Instead I am taking S8 and S5 while W takes D5 for a girls day.
It's been 5 months since DDay and the MR has not improved - if anything it's declined a bit. I sense that W is still very satisfied with the way we're living which is basically divorced. She continues to drink heavily on the weekends and sees herself as the victim.
I would like input from the board on how to have the divorce conversation. I am not going to accept this life for myself or my kids and I'm ready to assert that with W. Up until now the only sober conversations we've had have been her saying there is no way she would agree to D unless she gets the house and custody, and that we can continue to live the way we're living. This is unacceptable to me. She'll be out of town the weekend of feb 10 visiting her sister and I plan to approach her the following week while the kids are at school and it's quiet at home. The conversation I have in mind goes something like this:
"W, for some time now we've been disconnected and it doesn't work for me. I know how difficult the last three years have been for you and I appreciate you finally telling me about the PA. I had hoped that once it was out in the open things would improve, but unfortunately all I see is more of the same. I no longer want to live this way and I 'm prepared to file D. Let's talk about what that would look like."
I've decided that for us to remain married she would need to agree to some basic transparency about the PA, go to IC, and stop drinking. Sadly I don't believe she would consider any of that, and she has said as much over the last few months.
"W, for some time now we've been disconnected and it doesn't work for me. I no longer want to live this way and I 'm going to file D. Let's talk about what that would look like."
If you are not prepared to say the above you are not ready. Especially if there is something she can say to stop it.
Curious question: has she voiced any change talk about her drinking or self identified problems from it?
Yes, she knows she has an issue and has expressed desire to fix it when drunk. She won't talk about it when sober and I no longer press as part of the DB process, bc that feels like pressure to her.
Originally Posted by Boat14
If you are not prepared to say the above you are not ready. Especially if there is something she can say to stop it.
I can say that I am ready. I'm done living like a divorced couple but having the constraints of a marriage commitment.
But Boat, what do you mean by "something she can say to stop it"?
If she were to reply with "I'll stop drinking and start spending more time together, I want us to be married" etc, I would tell her it's just not that simple.
Yesterday I took S8 and S5 down to the beach for the entire day, it was awesome. We're getting a mid winter heat wave and spent the entire day outside with a friend and his family. W took D5 to lunch then went to her brother's house and drank all day; she and D5 came home in an Uber.
After we got the kids ready for bed and set them up with a movie I walked over to a neighbor's house to hang with him for an hour. He mentioned they had spent the entire day at home with their three kids after plans to be away were cancelled. They played board games, rode bikes, watched a movie - had what I consider a very normal family day. And not once did either he or his wife crack a beer or pour a glass of wine until the kids were in bed and I came by.
I am so entrenched with an alcoholic that I've forgotten much of the population doesn't feel the need to stun themselves silly just because it's Saturday. I'm determined to get my kids out of this situation.
Maturin, unsafe alcohol use can wreak damage on many levels. I’m curious if you have read the book “Get your loved one sober” and I wonder if your W has brought her drinking up with her doctor.
Ah you have done your homework “it’s not that simple”. Your drunken SAHM is going to say what she needs to say to continue her current life style. Remember that a monkey will not let go of a branch until it has its other hand on the next branch.
So back to my point of you file when nothing she says can change your mind. These fantasy exchanges in our heads rarely happen the way we anticipate them to happen.
These fantasy exchanges in our heads rarely happen the way we anticipate them to happen.
Yes. And what I've learned is that W is expert at deflecting, blaming, and doing what she can to avoid reality during those talks. I used to try to game plan every anticipated response of mine but I've realized that's pointless. Now I focus on what I want for myself and my kids, and the responses flow naturally from those desired outcomes.
I have real concern over the branch swing whenever it comes, not for me but for my kids. W is in an unhealthy place right now and any guy that signs up for that is going to be in bad shape. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Also, in the interest of full ownership I want to mention a mistake I made yesterday. W was challenging me about something w the kids and I was simply not responding or finding ways to agree. She then told me she couldn't address something because she was making dinner (a dinner that I had planned and laid out) and I said "I noticed that, first time you've done that in a long time."
It was an immature passive aggressive comment made from a place of frustration. I let my emotions get the best of me and it was not helpful. She was very ticked about it.
I would like input from the board on how to have the divorce conversation.
I believe actions speak louder than words. This goes for both you and her. You need to take action. You need to see her take positive action.
Obviously there are serious issues that both of you need to address. There are always more fingers pointing back at ourselves.
Her drinking defenately affects her ability to parent. (If you stay together or seperate). Figuring out how to address this should trump if you stay together or seperate. I am not an expert in this area, but you can do lots of research into this. Strong boundaries are needed.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Her drinking defenately affects her ability to parent. (If you stay together or seperate). Figuring out how to address this should trump if you stay together or seperate. I am not an expert in this area, but you can do lots of research into this. Strong boundaries are needed.
From My Notes (not sure the source):
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Big Relationship change “I have been thinking about my future and what I want long-term, the kind of man I want to be with for life and to start a family with. Here is what he will look like: He will be loving, smart, fun, and someone I connect well with, and he'll have my same values. Also, he will be responsible, will think about the future, will be going somewhere, and will be a good provider. He will take care of the basic things, like being financially responsible and normal things that adults do. That is what I am looking for and that is the kind of person I will be with. Right now, that is not you. I love you, and I want that person to be you, but right now, it is not. So I can't see a future together as things are now. But I am going to give you a choice: you get to decide whether or nor you want to be that person. If you do, and you become that kind of person and prove it to me long enough that I really can believe it, I would love to be with you. But it is up to you whether or not that is who you want to be and whether or not you want to be with me. It is your decision."
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thanks R2C, that is good framework for a conversation. I'll give it some thought. My initial reaction is that she would take that offer as a way to buy more time and just continue living her current WW lifestyle. I can already see her rolling her eyes at "That is what I am looking for and that is the kind of person I will be with." She does not see me as the prize and the threat of me walking doesn't hold much weight. It's the main reason I feel that filing D is the next logical step here. I am ok with ending the MR at this point, and if she can turn things around during the entirety of my state's 6 month waiting period I would consider not finalizing things.
I've done a lot of work on myself the last two years. Much of the advice here and elsewhere for those in my sitch is to build yourself back into the person you were when you met your W (or better) and be prepared to leave if things don't improve. When you turn back at the door what you'll see is no longer someone you're afraid to lose, but someone who isn't providing you with the value you expect for yourself in relationship. Obviously we're not talking "you don't make my favorite dish often enough", we're talking "I don't trust you to care for our kids because you have a drinking problem". I'm not "that guy" yet but I feel I'm close.
MY IC and parents have both said to me constantly that "the kids know something is wrong". We don't have a high conflict marriage (no fighting in general and none in front of the kids) so I've pushed back on that idea. But last night D6 came to me before bed and said "Daddy, one day can we take a trip as a whole family where mommy comes too? We never do that." To which S5 responded, "We did that one time when we went to <vacation>". That trip was one year ago.
M I just want to say that you are on the right track and heading towards a better future. You are starting to understand your value as a person and are coming to realize that this marriage doesn’t work for you. You don’t make excuses for your W MLC, Aliens believe nothing they say etc. Currently you are correct she doesn’t see value in you. Some day that may change. You cross that bridge when you come to it. Keep moving forward.
Big Relationship change “I have been thinking about my future and what I want long-term, the kind of man I want to be with for life and to start a family with. Here is what he will look like: He will be loving, smart, fun, and someone I connect well with, and he'll have my same values. Also, he will be responsible, will think about the future, will be going somewhere, and will be a good provider. He will take care of the basic things, like being financially responsible and normal things that adults do. That is what I am looking for and that is the kind of person I will be with. Right now, that is not you. I love you, and I want that person to be you, but right now, it is not. So I can't see a future together as things are now. But I am going to give you a choice: you get to decide whether or nor you want to be that person. If you do, and you become that kind of person and prove it to me long enough that I really can believe it, I would love to be with you. But it is up to you whether or not that is who you want to be and whether or not you want to be with me. It is your decision."
If you were to say those words to her... they would currently fall on deaf ears. She is not able to have emotionally mature conversations. Even if she agrees - change is unlikely to follow.
M - All three of my serious partners have had addiction issues. Today - all 3 of them of sober. And as much as I wish it was something I said or did - ultimately they all hit their form of rock bottom. They had to get so tired of being that way - THEY decided to choose something different. All i had to do...was get out of their way. Stop the enabling and let them fall... fast and hard. Easier said than done for sure (it actually took me a few times to learn this lesson...lol) but it is the most loving thing you can do for your wife. And it's the only way there is a possibility for change.
The hard truth M is that you enable your w. Whether that's for your kids, or for your sanity.. there is a part you play in the story.
Please know it comes with no judgement. Living with an alcoholic is miserable. Up until now - you have been doing the best you can with the tools you have... but M - it's time to learn new tools.
If you want a big relationship change - you can't say anything to her... but you can show her the change.
For example: Step back for a minute... detach from the fact this woman is your wife and the mother of your kids.
Would you let an alcoholic go places with your kids in the car knowing that there is a possibility she could drive home drunk with them?? My guess is not
Would you let you children be around an alcoholic who acts like a complete idiot when drunk. Calling you names and belittling you and just exposing them to that chaos? My guess is not.
Would you give money to alcoholic who makes excuses to why they can't show up and adult properly? My guess is not
M - none of these things require a sit down conversation with your w. They require some d@mn firm boundaries. And I won't lie - if things are gonna get better... they will get a h3ll of alot worse first.
Enough conversations. Enough words. It's time for actions. You got this.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
The hard truth M is that you enable your w. Whether that's for your kids, or for your sanity.. there is a part you play in the story.
Yes, you're right. For years I played fixer: drove her to get her car the next day, soothed her when she recounted embarrassing stories from the night before, and of course the big one: drank late into the night with her many times. I would go home early to relieve the babysitter so she could stay out and drink, believing the excuse "I've been with the kids all week, I need to get away." This is where garden-variety alcoholic enabling and DB'ing intersect: the more I enabled and was a pushover, the more she began to lose respect for me. I spent too many years playing peacekeeper.
For a while now I've stopped that behavior. I don't go out with my wife, ever. Haven't for at least 6 months. But I still allow her to take advantage. When I schedule time with the kids, she schedules time to drink.
Her family is the same: all either drinkers or enablers. I chastised her mom about this three months ago. A month after DDay I scheduled time on a Saturday to plan a hunt at a friend's house. W took our kids to her brother's for a birthday party and then scheduled a babysitter to watch the kids after the party so she could watch football (and drink). She texted me to ask when I would be home so she could tell the sitter. I simply replied I was not relieving the babysitter that night and that she needed to be home for the sitter.
Well, W threw a fit so her mom took our kids for a sleepover. This enabled my W to stay out and drink until 2am. I ripped into her mom for this.
All this points back to the D conversation. Truth be told, she would exist in this current world indefinitely. I am responsible and she gets to mess around.
That's where the action part comes in. I've removed my time and attention, but if a W doesn't value those it feels more like a relief than a loss. So you're left with D. And each day that I plan for it, I feel less afraid. I would go so far as to say at this point that any fear I have left is for my kids, not myself.
***MrP's pre-post disclaimer - I'm not a therapist; just a guy who spent some QT in therapy, reads a lot, and experienced a relationship troubles a time or two who is offering some peer-to-peer feedback. Consult with your IC for professional guidance.***
I agree with Boat that something brief and tight like "W, for some time now we've been disconnected and it doesn't work for me. I no longer want to live this way and I 'm going to file D. Let's talk about what that would look like" is best. I try to give myself no more than 3-5 complete sentences when having a difficult conversation like this that needs to be focused. Maybe:
1. I continue to feel unhappy with this marriage right now. 2. I want to be in a relationship that (briefly describe 2-3 things that are crucial to you and without referencing W or using the word "you" about her) OR something like.... 3. I want a partner who fully loves me and my children, and will actively work to maintain put a relationship with me first. 4. At this point, divorce is the best option for me. 5. I need to talk about what that would look like, especially for (insert kids' names).
Note that my suggestions are all focused on YOU and solely on your needs/wants. Nothing like "OUR" kids, "OUR marriage" or "your drinking doesn't work for me". You're articulating what the standards are for any partner who will be qualified to be in a relationship with you going forward. In theory, it reduces the likelihood of an "attack" response because you aren't directly criticizing or provoking her (quick shoutout to the chapter in The Solo Partner that discusses blame; I DID retain some of what I read).
Now, certainly she can say "OH AND CLEARLY THAT'S NOT ME" or "WELL I GUESS I DON'T MEET YOUR LOFTY STANDARDS MATURIN", "OH AND YOU'RE SO PERFECT' or something similar. People who want to fight, deflect, deny what's happening, feel like they've lost control/power over you, etc. will find a way to try to bait you into the conflict. You job again is to not tak the bait in the trap and calmly stick to your guns:
1. Everything I stated is about my needs and standards in a relationship going foward. 2. Divorce seems the best option for getting my needs met. 3. I recognize this decision can be a shock. 4. If not is not a good time to talk, I hope (later today, tomorrow, or some other option in the next day) will work when a conversation might be more productive.
And then exit the conversation...which means you'll likely want to plan the conversation for a point in time that best enables a clean exit and/or reduces the opportunity for W to follow you while trying to continue to ignite conflict. After a similar conversation, my W followed me to my office and, when I shut the door and locked it, tracked down the spare key (so, also, hide spare keys).
My recollection from reading MANY posts in this forum is that, at this point, you've got to be ready to D. It doesn't mean it will happen or that you may never R in the future if by some miracle W has an epiphany. You do have to be at a point where if those standards above aren't met or if the life you'd be living conflicts with your values, you will walk (and keep walking). Otherwise your words are hollow.
I know you've got an IC so I'd recommend working with them to confirm the feedback you're receiving from us armchair quarterbacks is right for your sitch. I always worry that something I suggest might not truly be best because we're only getting half the story in this forum.
Thanks P, your post is well timed. Thinking through how I plan to approach this I made a note in my phone last night. Rather than write a script, I put down the following:
*** Reasons the D works for me:
1. W betrayed my trust and recruited others to lie, I won't be with someone who does that. 2. W is a 37 year old mother of 3 who stays out at bars until 2am, not who I will be with. 3. W prioritizes drinking over kids and has become neglectful as a mother, not fair to kids.
When having the conversation:
1. Be congruent at all times 2. Do not let your emotions control you, especially when she tries to draw them out. 3. Key replies: "It's not that simple" and "I'll think about that and let you know." ***
These are high level ideas I plan to keep in my head at all times. Obviously this is a complicated sitch and the part I played in the MR breakdown is not covered here but I've worked hard to understand and own that. If she brings any of that up I will validate those feelings but keep the conversation focused on what must be done now.
Originally Posted by MrP
And then exit the conversation...which means you'll likely want to plan the conversation for a point in time that best enables a clean exit and/or reduces the opportunity for W to follow you while trying to continue to ignite conflict.
It's a work in progress at the moment, but my tentative plan is to have the kids spend the night at my parents on the day we have the convo. Afterwards I will leave the house for the night to create space.
Originally Posted by MrP
I know you've got an IC so I'd recommend working with them to confirm the feedback you're receiving from us armchair quarterbacks is right for your sitch
I had an appt y'day and discussed w him in detail. I would say the theme of that conversation was "What are you waiting for?" and we hashed that out. I aired my fears and doubts and dug into why I have them, and a difficult conversation produced a simple answer. Do nothing and remain miserable or take action and take your power back.
In other news, I turn 40 today and plan to eat a steak the size of my face for dinner. Onward!
Happy Birthday! Sounds like you need a Tomahawk steak or a nice ribeye. Savor every minute of your birthday and dining experience. Cheers to many more!
1. W betrayed my trust and recruited others to lie, I won't be with someone who does that. 2. W is a 37 year old mother of 3 who stays out at bars until 2am, not who I will be with. 3. W prioritizes drinking over kids and has become neglectful as a mother, not fair to kids.
When having the conversation:
1. Be congruent at all times 2. Do not let your emotions control you, especially when she tries to draw them out. 3. Key replies: "It's not that simple" and "I'll think about that and let you know." ***
D is not the solution to your problems. It might be part of your boundaries. Your beliefs, thoughts and behavior need changes. I say this without including any info from your previous posts.
I can't help her change. You are the only one I may be able to influence. The way you interact with her is the only thing that may make a difference.
She needs someone "stronger" than her to lead her through whatever she is going through. It is up to you to figure out how to do this. It will be one of the hardest things you will ever do.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I'm listening R2C. I did see that post, and I watched several of his videos more than once.
I recognize D will not solve the issues within myself that I've been working on.
I don't want D, but there comes a point when you have to do something even if you don't want to.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
She needs someone "stronger" than her to lead her through whatever she is going through
I agreed with this right up until the point she confessed to infidelity. For 2 years her behavior was wayward and I worked on being the oak and learning about leading in relationship. She would often say "you're the rock and I'm the balloon". But finding out about the PA and the lying, and observing her behavior for the last 5 months, I don't believe she is interested in change.
I will say it again D when you want to D. When nothing she says can change your mind. 40 is very young in these situations. You have plenty of time to make all the changes you need to make, spend quality time with your young kids. You said your M is low conflict so living together shouldn’t be an issue. Let’s face it as a stay at home mom your W is going to take you to the cleaners in the settlement.
I know women like your W and it’s highly unlikely she is going to change her mind without significant time and space to understand what she really gave up. I like R2Cs advice for new relationships but this advice doesn’t work on WWs.
I am sorry but there is no easy way out of this mess.
These boards provide a lot of value to me because of what is discussed, but it's useless if I don't put it into action. And I'd be wasting your time.
I've been in a stalemate with my W for nearly half a year. I know 40 is young, but if I spend 5, 7, 10 years making changes and W doesn't budge, and my kids spend those years witnessing an unhealthy marriage, that is bad for them. And it's bad for me.
I know that 5 months is a blink in the DB process. But that is long enough for me.
The thought exercise I go through it this.
Stay w W: My kids are adults and look back on their childhood. What they see is a nice life on the surface: we live in a nice neighborhood on a quiet street, take nice vacations, and spend time with family and friends. But Mom and Dad don't spend a lot of time together. Mom drinks a lot and the kids spend most of the time adventuring with Dad while Mom stays home. She sleeps on the couch a lot and when they come out for morning cartoons on weekends she's there in all her clothes form the night before. Dad tried to shield them from mom's drinking but he also seemed to put up with it to a certain extent. The older they get the more they notice that Mom is drunk a lot. They question why Dad put up with this crap for years.
Divorce: My kids are adults and look back on their childhood. Their parents divorced when they were 8, 6, and 5. It was very traumatic because they didn't see it coming, but looking back the older kids knew mom had an alcohol problem. They had to sell that really cool house with a pool and a diving board and moved to a smaller, less nice neighborhood nearby, though still perfectly safe and respectable. Time was split 50/50 between mom and dad's houses and they began to spend more time with their grandparents. Dad stepped up in a major way and was very involved in sports, school, and all the extracurriculars. They didn't have the budget for ski trips for a while but still went camping and had a good childhood. After a while Dad became involved with a new woman and showed them what a healthy relationship looks like. What would happen with their Mom, I can't say.
Mom will probably continue to drink and stay out all night bringing random dudes home to the house. Kids will start to complain about the back and forth between two houses. Statistically your children will be more likely to divorce in the future.
What you described above was my parent’s marriage and I had nothing but great childhood memories.
Again I’m not telling you not to divorce. I’m telling you to divorce when you are ready and want to divorce.
Lastly you are painting yourself as the prince in your scenarios when we both know it takes two people to create an unhappy marriage.
Just some words from me. Like my 2 cents. Or maybe 4. The odd post has been known to get long. At any rate, I’d be remiss to not speak up and I respect you too much to let that happen.
Alcoholism is a disease. Alcoholics are suffering from a progressive, and sadly, often fatal disease.
Realize it’s not a matter of morality. Near 100% of alcoholics know right from wrong. And if knowing the difference between right and wrong could solve their problem, then they would have been “cured” ages ago.
Their need for a drink is beyond their ability to control. It would be like telling someone with diabetes to just try harder at not having diabetes. It doesn’t make sense and they wouldn’t be able to do it no matter how hard they tried.
Alcoholics feel a lot of shame and being lost. And most talks about their problem come at things from a poor angle which has little chance of success.
Resentment, fear, anger, jealousy, denial, dishonesty, and codependency - are just a few of the hallmarks of alcoholism. Alcoholism is contagious. No, you don’t catch it. Alcoholism, the disease, will absorb everything and everyone around it. And it can take you down too. You build up resentment, anger, fear, and such.
Family and friends begin to interact with the alcoholic in the same way the alcoholic interacts with booze. And just like the alcoholic is powerless over alcohol, the family is powerless over the disease of alcoholism in their loved one. The addiction for the family becomes trying to control or save the alcoholic.
Alcoholism is not rational. You cannot rationalize with it, and you cannot change it.
Yet, you are not without options and perhaps influence. Knowledge, learning of the disease and how better to interact with the alcoholic. Reaching out to support groups, as a family member. Having professional intervention, a trained qualified third party talk to W. (Sometimes that outside push from a non family member, from someone who has walk a mile in her shoes, starts the change within her.) Offer to drive, and hopefully actually drive, W to and from her meetings or appointments or whatever positive counselling she is attending. And such.
Quote
I don't want D. but There comes a point when you have to do something even if you don't want to.
It’s a hard road. (((Hugs)))
Much respect to you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Just some words from me.....Having professional intervention, a trained qualified third party talk to W. (Sometimes that outside push from a non family member, from someone who has walk a mile in her shoes, starts the change within her.).....
It’s a hard road. (((Hugs)))
Much respect to you.
I am glad DNJ posted his thoughts. He articulated my thoughts way better than I could have hoped for.
There is some tough love needed. Love the person, hate the behavior.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Hey M. Have you established that your wife is "officially" an alcoholic? Alcoholism runs in my family so I'm altogether too familiar with it. As I read some posts and responses, I just want to make sure that you are dealing with true alcoholism vs. binge drinking, "my turn to live my best life" MLC behavior, and/or something that, while bad, isn't quite full-blown alcoholism yet. I apologize if you've established that in a prior post that I'm not recalling (and I'm a bit pressed for time or I'd re-read your posts). I ask because MWD talks about feeling differently about D when substance abuse is involved along with violence, etc.
I'm with Boat: ultimately you decide when it is time to D AND nothing your W can say will stop you. Some of the... pushback or perhaps hesitance..you may perceive from "us" likely stems from observing your stated feelings seemingly move back and forth over this relatively short period (which is natural) and now move to D. And, for example, if your W is a true alcoholic, then as DnJ suggests it would seem that attempting a professional intervention would be another option since you state you don't want a D. This is the "in sickness and in health, good times and bad" part.
Your feelings make total sense to me. Time is ticking away. You want to be happy. You worry about the impact on your kids. And, if your IC is on board with your decision, it may be the right one. I'm going to steal from DnJ's playbook a bit here and add that "feelings are fleeting" so be sure that your decision to D is NOT being driven by those feelings rather than a decision made when you're feelings are more quiet and the rationale brain is in control.
It is tricky because, as even MWD says, many ICs aren't properly trained and can focus too much on traditional CBT or other methods to just treat the person in front of them in ways that a licensed marital and family counselor IC may not.
I've taken ~4-5 years to work on the things I needed to be a better person and partner. Whether my W is unable or unwilling to forgive, put in similar work, MLCing, or whatever....I feel 100% OK with whichever path my life will take. I'm a plodder.
If YOU feel with 100% certainty that in ~5 months you've done all you can as best you can with what is w/i your control, including addressing the un-prince-like things Boat suggests we've all contributed to what got us here, then perhaps it is truly time to D.
Again (I haven’t taken time to review your post history) Maturin, have you reached out for support for you and your kids around W’s drinking?
In your community or online there can be some good fits for you with people who have been there before and can support and facilitate you staying on track and doing what is right for your family.
I have and still do this.
If you haven’t read it, I recommend you grab a copy of “Get Your Loved One Sober” from your local library and let us know here what you think.
All my best with solidarity hope respect and humble care.
I took about a week off from posting or reading on the board. I've been here daily since November and I wanted to take time to myself to make sure I had clarity on what I want, and what I see as the best path forward. I also stopped reading and re-reading the giant stack of self help and relationship books I've accumulated over the last 2+ years and instead read some historical non-fiction and news - what the "old me" loved to do (spoiler: the new me likes it too). But I did read everyone's input.
Regarding my W's drinking, she has alcoholism in her family but right now I would consider her as having a binge drinking disorder. She is not a daily drinker and can take multiple days off in a row. We have tried over the years to intervene but as anyone who has encountered this knows, the addict must be the one to want the change.
So here's the punch line. I have always considered infidelity as a deal-breaking boundary. When confronted with the fact that it actually happened in my own marriage it was a total shock and I went through all the stages of dealing with it. I am likely still going through that process but my emotions have stabilized considerably since September and I've had much time to reflect on what happened then and what has happened since.
I've decided to move forward with the divorce. I met with L yesterday to prepare paperwork and intend to speak to W late next week.
I plan to post here throughout the process. I am no longer trying to bust a divorce but will need guidance and the board has been a great resource for that.
Over the weekend my brother asked if there was anything W could do that would change my mind. I had called him because she was out drinking again (I'll spare you all the details of another story that sounds just like the other ones). I told him there wasn't anything she could say or do because the trust was gone, and I was tired of being taken for granted. In that moment I felt the clarity I had been searching for. I wasn't angry or hurt, I was relieved.
Over the weekend my brother asked if there was anything W could do that would change my mind. I had called him because she was out drinking again (I'll spare you all the details of another story that sounds just like the other ones). I told him there wasn't anything she could say or do because the trust was gone, and I was tired of being taken for granted. In that moment I felt the clarity I had been searching for. I wasn't angry or hurt, I was relieved.
I think you've been more than fair with her.
You've recognized your own behaviors that may have contributed to problems in your marriage.
Unlike many, she cannot possibly feel blindsided by your decision. You have told her repeatedly what she has done wrong and what needed to stop. She has not shown any indication of working on her problems or getting whatever help she needs.
Maybe this course of action will wake her up, if not to save her marriage at least to correct her course for her own future.
I think many reading here will support you. I hope you view this as the beginning of getting the life you deserve, because you deserve better than her.
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
I told him there wasn't anything she could say or do because the trust was gone, and I was tired of being taken for granted. In that moment I felt the clarity I had been searching for. I wasn't angry or hurt, I was relieved.
This is a true sign that you are ready. I respect your decision. This IMO is what DB is about, becoming a man who understands this type of behavior is unacceptable and acts on it.
It sounds like you're in the right place, M. Trust is extremely difficult to restore, and from what you described your W isn't anywhere near a place to even think about truly re-earning it. I wish you much strength and support, for you and your kids, so that everyone comes out the other side of this in a truly better position. Keep us posted!
I spent most of the weekend with the kids and it was great. W was out of town visiting her sister/friends.
Friday the kids and I stayed in and I spent about an hour with S8 drawing cartoons from one of his favorite books. While we drew we talked, joked, and laughed. It was such a great micro-experience within the weekend and I felt so connected to him. In the blink of an eye he'll be a teenager and have much less time for his Dad, so I am greedily collecting these moments.
W came home y'day mid morning looking worse for wear. We chatted pleasantly and I went to a friend's to watch the Super Bowl. The party was attended mostly by people I didn't know, but I had a lot of fun meeting and getting to know them.
I look at these weekends as dry runs for D - alone time with the kids, then socializing without W or kids as a "single guy". Despite the focused time and attention I had given my kids all weekend, and the fact that we were only apart for a few hours, I did feel myself missing them and being sad that we were not together as a family during Super Bowl. I acknowledged and allowed myself to feel those feelings.
I've decided to stop drinking alcohol for a while. I had 3 beers at a basketball game last Tuesday and nothing since. This is something I had first considered in October of 22 when I heard the Huberman Lab podcast on alcohol and its negative effects, and W's drinking was really becoming a problem. Prior to that I had never considered it a problem for me, because I don't have an addiction and didn't exhibit compulsive behavior while drinking. Once I listened to the podcast and dug deeper, I realized that there is almost no benefit to drinking. I kept doing it because I was worried that W or others would judge me (she likes to tell people I'm boring, a NARC, etc). At this point I have grown way past caring about that. My main motivation is that alcohol can interfere with emotional regulation and I want to be as even keeled as possible in the coming months. I've already been in two or three social situations without it and really enjoyed myself.
Originally Posted by MrP
Trust is extremely difficult to restore, and from what you described your W isn't anywhere near a place to even think about truly re-earning it.
This captures the essence of why I've decided to take the next steps, MrP. Looking objectively at W's behavior I can see she does not want to make efforts to repair things right now. I know there are a lot of folks here who wait it out, even when OM2, OM3, etc enter the picture, but that is not for me.
Once I listened to the podcast and dug deeper, I realized that there is almost no benefit to drinking. I kept doing it because I was worried that W or others would judge me (she likes to tell people I'm boring, a NARC, etc). At this point I have grown way past caring about that. My main motivation is that alcohol can interfere with emotional regulation and I want to be as even keeled as possible in the coming months.
Interestingly, I just heard a presentation last week from a colleague at work that basically said the same thing: no real benefit to drinking, even in moderation. He has a background in nutrition. I wonder if he uses some of the same sources of information as you. He stated that even some alcoholic beverages with beneficial compounds (like red wine) are superfluous since the same compounds can be obtained from healthier sources.
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
Good info Sunflyer. I don't have a science background so I've been consuming info from the experts that's teed up to be understandable for the layman. Combine that with my own experimentation (first I drank less often but still in larger quantities, then less often in smaller quantities, now not at all) and I can say I'm a believer that it wasn't good for me. Just another 180 in a growing list of them.
I had the conversation. W came home from work and the house was empty as kids were at my parents already. We said hi to each other, then she told me she was heading out to hang with her brother. I asked her to sit so we could speak for a while, and she bristled and rolled her eyes: "oh come on, what?". This is the exact reaction I was expecting, and I didn't respond. She opted to stay standing and said "What is it?"
"W, we've have been disconnected for a long time and it doesn't work for me. I am going to file and proceed with the divorce."
She was equal parts annoyed and angry, but mostly annoyed. She came back with all the normal responses she has used before: people go through rough patches, I won't do that to the kids, you're just being selfish and trying to control me, you're rushing me, all you care about is whether we're having sex or not, etc.
I did my best to validate and agree where I could. I kept the focus on the facts, that our relationship was very disconnected and had been for many years. That the drinking and wild behavior was not okay with me, that I won't accept that for myself. One of my goals was not to allow this to turn into an argument, and so there was no arguing from me when she tried to start one. I didn't want to rehash things we've talked about ad nauseum, this was not the time for that.
Only once did I mention the affair. She said I was overreacting to a basic rough patch and I said "W, there was an affair and I was lied to for many years about it. This has damaged the trust in our relationship, and there has been no effort to repair that trust."
Think you handled it well. Short, direct and to the point. Not sure what you tried to validate or why? My guess is 5 years later your only regret is you didn’t do it sooner. Continue to post.
After the conversation with W last night I felt calm. I wasn't sure what I was expecting but I wasn't sad, angry, upset or any of that. I went to a local spearfishing store and bought some gear that I'll need for the upcoming season and chatted with a bunch of guys in the shop. I spoke on the phone to my brother and watched a movie then turned in.
W came home drunk at midnight, woke me up and went through the usual routine. Told me I am overreacting, that I need to focus on making friends with her friends again (those who knew but kept the secret) and that the affair was no big deal. Nothing new, though my concern is she doesn't appreciate what needs to happen here.
Well done sticking to the facts and not getting pulled into an emotional argument.
W is certainly mired in an unhealthy routine. She keeps at the same points. More talking herself into and maintaining her belief in, rather than trying to sway you methinks. Her waking you up to listen to her midnight reasonings, is really for her.
Spearfishing. That is so cool!
Have an awesome day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hey M. I just wanted to pop up and say well done. Well thought out and executed. As DnJ says, she still has to tell herself the things she is saying to justify her behavior. Further proof of the oft said line that we (often) didn't break our spouses and, therefore, we can't fix'em. She hasn't hit bottom yet and it may be best for you and your kids to not be there if/when she does in this case.
Please do keep posting so that we know how you are doing. Glad to hear you continue to excel at GALing. I hope you remain at peace. Your actions help motivate me (perhaps others to) to keep at DBing. All the best, P
Yesterday W asked to talk, and we had a civil discussion about the process and what happens next. She is not prepared and acknowledged that her "head is spinning" about all of this. I told her I would be patient and hold off on the filing until she and I had an agreement on assets, custody, and support all worked out. I asked that she consider my proposal and let me know by the end of the week what her comments are.
She pushed back on 50/50 custody, which is a non-negotiable for me. Her reason was that she does not want the kids to be with my mom or a caretaker during my custody if I am occupied with work. I told her I am happy to be flexible once the agreement is done, but the legal document will say 50/50. All sorts of excuses came out about how I can't handle the kids, which I didn't even acknowledge. She also does not want to go back to work full time and thinks I would make her do so in order to pay less spousal support. In my state my obligation would go down regardless of whether or not she got a job, but I didn't bother telling her that. Lots of learning and processing for her to do.
I made great efforts to keep this conversation all business but at one point her drinking came up. I told her directly that I think she has a problem with alcohol, which she denied. She then defended herself by saying that "maybe I drink because of you", which I was expecting. Much of her narrative has been that her drinking, the affair, and all the girls gone wild behavior is because of me. Between the DB book, website, and countless other sources of material I've consumed, it's remarkable how predictable certain responses are. It's too bad that only when faced with D is she willing to open up even slightly with comments like this.
My W is a deeply avoidant person and I know she feels shame over the affair. I read elsewhere that when people feel shame they cover it with either grandiosity or worthlessness and she has certainly done both. This is where a lot of her drunken bravado comes in: "I could get any guy I want, men hit on me all the time, I could do much better than you" etc.
Lots of rain here so I took the kids bowling yesterday, which was a blast. I'm at 15 days without a drop of alcohol and continue to be amazed at how helpful it is for emotional regulation. Just ordered an Oura ring online so I can keep closer track of stress, sleep, etc during the upcoming tumultuous months.
I'm doing alright but taking it a day at a time. W's family is wealthy and we are in discussions about her family buying me out of the house so that she can keep it and live here with the kids. Given all that's happened this is very difficult for me to accept: financially I built what we have from zero, and to walk away from it after what she did makes me angry at times. And I worry how the kids will interpret this: Dad moves out, so Dad must have done something wrong. One day at at time.
I'm doing alright but taking it a day at a time. W's family is wealthy and we are in discussions about her family buying me out of the house so that she can keep it and live here with the kids. Given all that's happened this is very difficult for me to accept: financially I built what we have from zero, and to walk away from it after what she did makes me angry at times. And I worry how the kids will interpret this: Dad moves out, so Dad must have done something wrong. One day at at time.
M: I think you're doing great.
I have similar feelings about leaving my house. We wouldn't have it if it weren't for me, that's a fact. I saved my pennies in graduate school, stashing away as much of my stipends as I could, and had enough for a 20% down payment. (We got married when I was in my final year of graduate school).
But the reality is: I don't have the money to buy her out. I don't want to take another loan at this point in my life (mortgage is paid off). And a house always means expensive repairs, particularly when it's old as ours is. (We've renovated practically everything except the basement which needs a complete redo, which will be somewhere in five figures at minimum).
There were a lot of good memories in that house, and I'm sure you feel the same way about yours. But sometimes walking away is for the best. Keep moving forward.
SF
Me 59 W 47 T 26 M 23 S18, S14 BD May 2023 D filed June 2023 OM1 confirmed: December 2023 OM2 confirmed: October 2023
I agree. This stuff is not easy, and you are doing what is needed.
Hopefully your W finds the help she needs. Most likely too late to help save the M, but you have to maintain and enforce your boundaries, with her and everyone else.
Keep up the personal growth. It is a never ending journey.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
An update from me. W and I are cordial while things progress. I am giving her space but keeping things on track, and as a result she has shared her attorney's name as well as a financial affidavit form provided by her parents' financial planner. This planner is a CDFA and while her services are overkill for our financial picture (we own a home w 50% equity and various retirement and financial accounts) I am fine including her if it puts my W at ease and moves things along. She will not be charging for her services, and she manages W's parents wealth, so I know whose side she is on.
Overall my base case is simple: everything we have has been built by us together and can be dismantled by us together. No need to involve third parties. W wants to keep the house, which will require her father to step in and pay off or refinance the mortgage, as well as buy out my equity stake. This transaction would lead to wife paying no mortgage or rent. I am willing to agree to this IF my spousal support is then reduced to zero. L believes this to be very reasonable, since the market rent alone for our home would exceed my monthly alimony, and W would be living here for free.
W is very sullen and down most of the time, though our interactions are pleasant enough when they happen. I no longer spend any time wondering what she's thinking or feeling, mostly I focus on the kids, the process, and staying grounded.
22 days alcohol free, I can see myself staying the course here for a while. It's very helpful to be well rested and emotionally centered.
GAL has suffered a bit the last two weeks, or maybe it seems that way because I only went lobster diving once and hung out with friends twice. After the frenetic pace of the last 3 months its seemed quiet.
Stay strong my friend, there is a light at the end of the tunnel If you ever even think of drinking remember the dark place you were in when you turned to it, only to delay the inevitable pain. Bring clear minded while it can be hard to endure, allows us to think clearly about everything
W wants to keep the house, which will require her father to step in and pay off or refinance the mortgage, as well as buy out my equity stake. This transaction would lead to wife paying no mortgage or rent. I am willing to agree to this IF my spousal support is then reduced to zero. L believes this to be very reasonable, since the market rent alone for our home would exceed my monthly alimony, and W would be living here for free.
Your L may feel it's reasonable but was does the law say? Not sure she gets penalized for rich parents. IMO Someone should keep the home if possible for the children's stability. If not you than her and IMO should not be used as a bargaining tool.
Originally Posted by Maturin
W is very sullen and down most of the time, though our interactions are pleasant enough when they happen. I no longer spend any time wondering what she's thinking or feeling, mostly I focus on the kids, the process, and staying grounded.
Believe it or not although she wants out she is disappointed the marriage didn't work out.
I am willing to agree to this IF my spousal support is then reduced to zero.
For many locales, spousal support is one of the many things that are negotiable. Such things can be waived, set at a different amount, offset, etc, as long as both parties agree.
Your proposal sounds reasonable.
Originally Posted by Maturin
GAL has suffered a bit the last two weeks, or maybe it seems that way because I only went lobster diving once and hung out with friends twice. After the frenetic pace of the last 3 months its seemed quiet.
Nothing wrong with quiet.
Originally Posted by Maturin
It's very helpful to be well rested and emotionally centered.
Good for you. Keep it up.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Today W and I will sit down with her family's wealth advisor to review our financial picture. From previous conversations with W, I am under the impression she (W) thinks we can shuffle things around such that I keep certain accounts and she gets the house. Our equity position in the home is large enough that this isn't possible, but I am going into the meeting with an open mind and letting the advisor explain that and propose whatever solutions she can think of (she is a CDFA). I had previously assumed W's father was going to ride to the rescue with a large check to let her keep the house, but I'm now getting the sense he isn't going to do that. I'm making lots of assumptions because there is no direct communication on the subject between he and I.
I've had a few frustrating encounters with W that I would like to vent about.
D6 was sick this week. She stayed home from school Tuesday while W went to work; since I work from home D6 stayed here and I cared for her. Wednesday I had a lunch and offsite meetings, so I arranged for my mom to take care of D6 during lunch and meetings. My mom enthusiastically asked if W could just drop her off on her way to work, and D6 could spend all day with my mom rather than just while I was at lunch/meetings. Perfect, I thought - child care is handled and D6 will be receiving undivided attention from grandma all day.
W did not like this idea. She asked a series of questions: "doesn't your mom already have plans for the day, why do I have to drop her off on my way to work, why is she watching her all day instead of just at lunch?" etc. I asked questions when she brought all this up: "What is it about the plan that doesn't work for you?" and the like. Ultimately she finally blurted out "I've had to stay home from work lots of times when the kids were sick, you're going to have to deal with all of that now yourself!" I realized the conversation was futile, W is very angry, and this had nothing to do with whether D6 was taken care of. I told her D6 is in good hands and that's what matters, and walked out of the room. Very frustrating but I knew continuing the conversation wasn't going to do any good.
Last weekend W went to her brother's house and got drunk. When she came home I was in bed reading, and she said "I think we're making a mistake and shouldn't get divorced. I know we're both miserable but it's going to be bad for the kids if we divorce." I replied that we were getting divorced because of her PA, the loss of trust, the unwillingness to work to restore trust on her part, and that we would both do what was best for the kids. She turned on a dime and went down the usual path, saying she has never been attracted to me and looks at our relationship like an arranged marriage, having only married me because her family liked me and she thought it would settle her down. More of the usual acerbic drunk anger.
Aside from that I'm doing well. Today is a month alcohol free and I'm still enjoying a very active social life.
Hey M. I saw your latest post and just wanted to say you continue to do an admirable job of managing your sitch.
Regarding the frustration of your mom helping out, I've faced similar criticism. It's like if you find a more creative solution than W did, or have a better support network of family and friends, they resent that. Or, accuse you of being a bad parent for shuffling your kids off to a grandparent's house. My W actually told me once that I "should have to sit in the house and suffer like I (W) suffered" in a similar situation. Great of you to focus on the outcome that was fine for you and your child. W is likely also looking for a reason to fight and continue blaming you for the overall sitch. As you figured out, there is no value in debating. The post-drunk incident sounds like a similarly sad attempt at being blameless and hurting you. Well done sticking to facts and saying little to nothing else.
I'm glad you're doing well and staying active. It really does help. Not sure I can go alcohol free BUT maybe I'll give it a whirl!
My W actually told me once that I "should have to sit in the house and suffer like I (W) suffered" in a similar situation.
I've heard essentially the same thing! And of course, I WANT to reply "Sounds good, I will stay here and you can go out into the world and build a career that supports a family of 5 in a high cost of living area. And remember, just food and groceries isn't enough, make sure you can afford to own a home and take nice vacations. See you tonight! I won't have dinner ready, I'll be too tired to cook."
Of course I would never be that petty and only "say" things like that here, to people like you who understand. I recognize the stress of being a stay at home mom is a real thing.
Truly, W is having a hard time. What's ironic is this: she has long harbored animosity towards my mom, though she would only vent it when drunk. She'd claim my Mom didn't like her, or was too judgmental, never helped, etc. But now, the person in both of our families who is most concerned and empathetic towards her is my mom. She is constantly describing my wife as lost and checking in on her, as well as finding ways to help with our kids.
Yesterday's meeting went fine, and we are now planning to have a consultation with a mediator. I can see that using the financial advisor, my FIL is pushing for a solution to keep W in the house. I am not going to stand in the way of that, but I don't plan to stay on the mortgage and that is what's being proposed. I am laser focused on what is best for me and the kids while not actively working for or against my W.
Taking the kids to a fair with some other dads this weekend, having dinner with a friend, and taking a yoga class Saturday morning. Feeling centered. Reading a book right now called The Art of Resilience by Ross Edgely, it's a good read for anyone interested in physicality and endurance challenges. And of course, it translates well for anyone going through a sitch that requires resilience of the mental and emotional kind as well.
I don't plan to stay on the mortgage and that is what's being proposed.
Agreed! Do not remain on the mortgage if/when you are not living there anymore.
Divorcing couples have basically two options. 1) One partner assumes the mortgage and buys the other out. 2) If neither can afford to, or neither wants the house, then the couple sells, pays of the remainder of the mortgage and splits up the proceeds (or splits up the remaining debt if equity was insufficient to pay the entire mortgage).
If W cannot solo assume the mortgage with its current terms, she would have to refinance. Strictly speaking removing you from the mortgage would likely still be a refinance. Anyhow, a new mortgage, which may even be larger if she does not have enough buy out funds, and maybe new terms: maybe length of amortization is increase to make more affordable payments, maybe a guarantor or co-signer is required. That guarantor is not you. If W’s Dad wants to take on that financial responsibility, let her and him figure it out. (Though it sounds like Dad is not keen on writing that big check anymore. Oh well, not your circus not your monkeys.)
W snapping about your Mom; her looking for a fight regarding the children (which as you saw was not about their welfare); W turning on a dime when she realized you aren’t going along with her temp check/narrative; sadly pretty commonplace. Keep walking your path, and let her feel her choices. Perhaps she will awaken and make significant steps and changes, and perhaps not.
Have a great time at the fair.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
One of the guys I follow stated that he mentally adds "I FEEL" to the beginning of what a woman says and adds "RIGHT NOW" to the end.
"I FEEL "
Originally Posted by Maturin
"I have never been attracted to you and look at our relationship like an arranged marriage, having only married you because my family liked you and I thought it would settle me down."
"RIGHT NOW".
Makes it very easy for us (me) to stay grounded and and not argue.
On top of that, there is no point in any rational discussions (or arguing) with someone who has been drinking. The drinks do help bring out some truths that sober people may not be willing to speak.
Just my 2 cents.
YOU are doing great.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thanks R2C, I think we follow many of the same folks. 2-3 years ago I was working with an online coach when all of this started happening, and he taught me to add "right now" to the end of anything W was saying, whether that was "I'm not attracted to you" or "I can't imagine my life without you". It has helped me keep things in perspective.
I had a conversation with W y'day that I'm not happy about, and I'm struggling to understand how I let it happen.
She was sitting on the couch after I had dropped D6 off at gymnastics and I asked for her availability to meet with mediator, who I had called earlier in the afternoon. The mediator's first opening was this Thursday and I told her that would be the best time for me, and that I wanted to get the ball rolling.
She came up with all kinds of excuses about how she had other stuff to do, didn't want to drive all the way to the mediator's office, was too tired to talk about it, etc. This is where I let my emotions get the best of me - I didn't flip out or anything, but I became exasperated and it showed. I asked her what could be more important that dealing with this, told her the kids deserved to know and we hadn't made any progress in moving forward, pointed out that she had time to go out and drink all day Saturday so why didn't she have time to address other life stuff over the weekend, etc. She wants to keep the house so I asked her to provide me with a proposal to do that, and she hadn't. Where was her game plan? I was ready to move forward and instead things were stuck, and I wasn't going to accept that. In short I was pressuring and not emotionally detached from the conversation.
Later my FIL came over and I addressed it w him directly, bc any game plan that leads to her staying in the house needs his involvement. We are mostly aligned about W's behavior being out of control and he empathized with me coming to a final decision to end the MR. After that conversation I had a more measured talk with W about the sitch and moving forward. She explained that she feels overwhelmed and doesn't know how to handle things and we discussed the potential plan in a more measured way. She did tell me I need to get out more and let off some steam, which was a direct jab at the fact that I am not drinking at the moment. I am still actively GAL, just not partying. At one point she asked why I was so eager to get this going, and I told her I was tired of living like roommates and was not going to accept this life for myself any longer. She asked "so what, do you want to date?" and I said yes, I'm ready to move forward with my life in many ways. She said "go ahead and date", to which I responded "I am not going to date while still tied up in a marriage". And that was it.
Posting here because after weeks of staying grounded and centered, I came off it y'day. even after months of learning to accept the D, I still have days in which I am in disbelief, so I am sure W is dealing with that times ten still.
One more item to mention, and it's important. During the first conversation I told W that she decided to "blow up our family" when she had the affair and that I wasn't overly sympathetic to her needing more time, or taking it slowly. She grabbed on to that and said "I can see you're still not over it and still angry about it". She's not wrong.
This back and forth speaks to the fact that W refused to engage in any form of reconciliation-type discussion at all, and swept all of this under the rug as fast as possible. My "moving forward" has been done alone in therapy and confiding to close friends/family. It's my view that this process will pick up speed once we no longer live together, hence my desire to move forward.
I think the problem here is that you don't want a divorce but feel like you have no choice but to divorce. That is why you are still not detached. I think a small part of you thought that forcing her hand might wake her up. The truth of the matter is when a woman loses attraction for a man it rarely returns. If it does it is usually when a man is killing it in life and would have zero desire to take her back. That's the catch-22 of this entire process.
Realize right now that it is going to take a really long time to uncouple yourself with her and a really long time before you are ready to date and a really long time before you find someone that fits into your new world. There are no shortcuts. Use your time wisely. Are you in your best shape physically? Have you learned what women want in a man? Have you figured out your purpose?
I promise you if you master these things you will find what you are looking for in life. If not, you may be still here ten years later complaining about what your wife is still doing to you and your family.
Good luck man, I'm at the exact same point as you, excuses for meeting with mediator and confronting/dealing with issues. Even if you don't plan on dating anyone it feels great to get out and socialize and helps build up your own confidence. Women are good at picking up visual cues of how you are feeling and how you present yourself so if she sees your mentally moving on and distancing she will think twice about her disposition and behaviour. I would suggest also getting a lawyer on retainer to go along with mediation, lawyers can send simple letters to her to encourage moving forward with mediation and they'll also give you good legal counsel on what your options are. Have you considered putting the house up for sale as an extra option. Mine right now is suggesting she buy me out but I have a signed listing agreement to push the issue. I have also asked her for a concrete buyout proposal but I sense in your case and mine is a ploy to delay the process because she can make excuses and delay this way. A listing agreement has a set date and creates deadlines.
I think the problem here is that you don't want a divorce but feel like you have no choice but to divorce.
The truth of the matter is when a woman loses attraction for a man it rarely returns.
Correct. My view is that I had two options in my sitch: rip off the band aid now and get divorced, or continue living in a dead marriage while working on myself and getting ready to leave. After ~2 years of working on myself while subsidizing a WW, I decided I am no longer willing to live this way. I'm ready-ish, and that's good enough. I've had enough time to realize W is permanently checked out and remaining married is the wrong thing to do. It's the decision I made and I am at peace with it. Most days all it takes is a reminder of the litany of ways W had disrespected me in order to feel confident in my decision, but yesterday I slipped up.
Originally Posted by Boat14
Realize right now that it is going to take a really long time to uncouple yourself with her and a really long time before you are ready to date and a really long time before you find someone that fits into your new world.
Yet another reason why I am eager to get going.
Originally Posted by Boat14
Are you in your best shape physically? Have you learned what women want in a man? Have you figured out your purpose?
Yes to being in shape, and signed up for a spartan race and triathlon this summer. Yes to understanding attraction, and still studying it daily. Happy in my career and a high earner, but looking for a deeper purpose that truly drives me to the point where it has my whole focus aside from the kids.
Originally Posted by Boat14
I promise you if you master these things you will find what you are looking for in life. If not, you may be still here ten years later complaining about what your wife is still doing to you and your family.
I refuse to be Angry Divorced Guy, which is why I still post here despite no longer trying to bust a D. Thanks Boat.
Everyone slips or struggles at times. It’s ok. Get up, dust off, and get back on the path.
Originally Posted by Maturin
One more item to mention, and it's important. During the first conversation I told W that she decided to "blow up our family" when she had the affair and that I wasn't overly sympathetic to her needing more time, or taking it slowly. She grabbed on to that and said "I can see you're still not over it and still angry about it". She's not wrong.
Yes, that is very important. You have work to do!
Mat, no matter how this situation goes, no matter what happens, do you want peace with past? The affair?
Finding and obtaining acceptance (and forgiveness) of such a betrayal is difficult. However, it is for you. And within your control and abilities to achieve.
So yes. Very important!
Regarding dating. Totally agree, not while married. And, I agree with Boat, long time before you’ll be ready to. Or even should. Most folks jump into dating or their next relationship with far too much baggage from their previous one.
Originally Posted by Maturin
The mediator's first opening was this Thursday and I told her that would be the best time for me, and that I wanted to get the ball rolling.
Simply give her your schedule.
It’s hard living in limbo when one is trying to control things. Lots of uncertainty in limbo. Leaving the heavy lifting to W and just responding, is your best course to embrace such times.
Originally Posted by Maturin
I was ready to move forward and instead things were stuck, and I wasn't going to accept that.
And not accepting leads to loss of your calm grounded balance.
You cannot control W. She’s dragging things out, pushing your buttons, and so on. Let her go. Let her be.
You gave her your schedule. The ball is in her court. Leave it there. Let her do her part.
Don’t fret over yesterday’s conversation. Keep moving forward.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Finding and obtaining acceptance (and forgiveness) of such a betrayal is difficult. However, it is for you. And within your control and abilities to achieve.
Acceptance is proving difficult. Many times I thought I had accepted what happened and moved forward only to be pulled back into anger, sadness, and frustration. Watching W continue to party like nothing happened is part of this: I want to get to a place where I no longer care what she is doing. I'm much closer now than I was 6 months ago, but still not "there" yet.
Originally Posted by DnJ
And not accepting leads to loss of your calm grounded balance.
Hey M. Wow that is a lot to deal with. I find the "quote" functionality exhausting here so I'm going old school and manually quote things you say above that I'd like to offer feedback about.
First, it sounds like you're trying to do this without a L. I thought about the same thing. It also sounds that you, like me, are doing fairly well from a career perspective. I thought "I'm smart enough to figure this out. Why pay $X per hour for a L?" Ultimately a mentor and close friend told me that, especially when you have children, this is not a place to "do it yourself". In this situation, we have lots of feelings tugging at us, in addition to our day jobs, parenthood, and other roles we play. Playing a part-time lawyer can do more harm than good and that is a risk I was unwilling to take with my D13 at stake. I agree with another poster who recommends securing a lawyer, even if only an adequate one who can keep the D train running on time and on the rails.
In my state and county, our judge expects us to have either reached a settlment or to have met with a mediator by X date. The court is so clogged up with activity, they don't want "routine" Ds taking longer than one year so there is a hard date by which most Ds should be done at worst. I wonder if, even if you choose to continue going it alone, you might leverage similar expecations from your state and county court. W will have little wiggle room on those dates and a good L with advise her accordingly. Now, you said the following in your post:
"She came up with all kinds of excuses about how she had other stuff to do, didn't want to drive all the way to the mediator's office, was too tired to talk about it, etc. This is where I let my emotions get the best of me - I didn't flip out or anything, but I became exasperated and it showed. I asked her what could be more important that dealing with this, told her the kids deserved to know and we hadn't made any progress in moving forward, pointed out that she had time to go out and drink all day Saturday so why didn't she have time to address other life stuff over the weekend, etc. She wants to keep the house so I asked her to provide me with a proposal to do that, and she hadn't. Where was her game plan? I was ready to move forward and instead things were stuck, and I wasn't going to accept that. In short I was pressuring and not emotionally detached from the conversation."
It sounds like you already recognize where this went awry. Based on something I read in DB or DR...or perhaps my DB coach told me the first time I went through this, before you say or do some of the things you did, ask yourself if it is likely to help or hurt the goal you're trying to achieve. To me, this likely drove your W to feel bad, ramp up to fight or defend herself, and not do anything to show you that you may be right. As Boat suggests, I sense you're still fondling the "rope" a bit here.
At this point, I'd recommend treating this more like a professional, business interaction if you don't want to leverage a L or your state/county legal process. What bargaining power do you have to incentivze W to cooperate otherwise?
Regarding your FIL, respectfully, he has no standing in this discussion (beyond what you choose to give him of course). I suppose if he can truly be "helpful" by all means leverage him. However, she will always be his daughter as you know. Again, I strongly believe a L is worth their hourly rate at this point. The path you're following, to me, seems to continue to enable your W to shirk accountability and responsibility. You and her father are managing around her, for here. I hope that makes sense. It also helps you avoid or minimize her opportunity to redirect things by saying things like you "need to get out more and let off some steam".
And, better yet, avoid or minimize her chance to say things like "so what, do you want to date?" For me, the response to that issue has been "Discussions about dating are immaterial for the foreseeable future; my priority is my children and completing the D process." Exit the conversation.
Remember, our goal is to be cordial and brief. Say the least that needs to be said to facilitate a productive conversation. Facts, not feelings. Easy, right? Absolutely not! You recognize that and where you're falling off the wagon so to speak. I fight the urge to run up to my moral high ground and lecture my W about how she's contributed to how we got here. I also know it won't help my cause in terms of trying to negotiation a reasonable settlement with the mother of my child (to whom I'll have some level of interaction with as long as both of us and D13 are alive). As the ever-wise DNJ suggests, forgiveness is for yourself.
Nobody has power over you unless you give it away. And, respectfully, you are giving W power (from my perspective) over you that I don't want to see you give away. The 180 to pull here is to shift to managing this relationship in a more clinical, business-like, and minimal way IMHO. Again, I say this with the best of intent to try and offer you a neutral opinion that I hope will be helpful to hear, whatever you choose to do. All my best in support of you, P.
I find the "quote" functionality exhausting here so I'm going old school and manually quote things you say above that I'd like to offer feedback about.
Quoting can be a bit cumbersome, especially multiple quotes utilizing the quote button (shudder). I suspect you’ve seen this guide.
Acceptance is proving difficult. Many times I thought I had accepted what happened and moved forward only to be pulled back into anger, sadness, and frustration. Watching W continue to party like nothing happened is part of this: I want to get to a place where I no longer care what she is doing. I'm much closer now than I was 6 months ago, but still not "there" yet.
You are doing fine. And will get there.
Some guidance, perhaps.
Acceptance is emotional understanding. It’s not indifference, it’s not being unfeeling or not caring. It’s understanding your feelings, allowing your feelings, realizing your feelings, and therefore being able to feel and experience them without the debilitating sadness, depression, anger, and bargaining.
It’s similar to intellectual understanding. You know and understand thyself.
I do get how it seems like not caring. My goodness, for so long we feel such pain and heartbreak, ceaselessly. A big part of acceptance is cleaving that trigger, which then removes the cascade and reinforcement of feelings when we recall, remember, and care. It’s wonderful to no longer have such a runaway train, yet still care. Still feel.
Realizing our limits of our control, detaching, letting go, accountability, respecting our spouse’s right to choose, keeping one’s heart soft and squishy and not hardening it, and so on, all play important parts in achieving such emotional understanding and acceptance.
Like I said, you are doing fine.
Time is a gift. Be patience and allow it to work. Such is the mechanism of the emotional realm and journey.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks for this MrP. All of your comments roll up to one central problem: I stopped DB'ing during the last few weeks. Even though I have decided to pursue D, I still intend to continue 180s (for me), GAL (for me) and detach (for me). I stopped doing those things and fell back into old and unproductive ways of interacting with W. I was focused on what W did, how it affected our family, and that there should be some kind of evening of the scales. I wasn't consciously thinking this but it's obvious now that it was guiding my thinking.
For clarity, I am using a L. I first engaged with him in Spring/Summer 2023 when I could tell something was very amiss, and have since put him on retainer and completed all ppwk necessary to file. His finger is on the trigger waiting for me to say "pull". W and I are engaging with a mediator at her request so that this individual can weigh in on how to manage the asset split and have my W stay in the house. I know our finances and I understand that we cannot come up with an equitable split that keeps one party in the house without outside money (i.e. her dad). My goal in using the mediator is to get a neutral third party to say "you cannot keep W in the house without outside money coming in, and if outside money does come in the most fair way to do this is X". My base case remains that we sell the house and split the proceeds.
Originally Posted by MrP
I fight the urge to run up to my moral high ground and lecture my W about how she's contributed to how we got here.
I struggle with this too. It's caused me to wonder where I am in the stages of grief: if I can't sit down with W without slinging mud at her over her actions, it seems to me I have some anger still. I don't want to be angry.
Hey MrP, thanks for checking in. I continue to move forward with my process and have filed D. As many here understand this is a tumultuous time and it's taken a lot of energy and focus to remain emotionally resilient for myself and my kids. Being sober has helped enormously as has prioritizing sleep, fitness, and a healthy diet.
I spend a lot of time with my kids especially on weekends and this weekend will be no different. Love it. They are still unaware of what is happening and it breaks my heart to think of what's ahead so I focus on the present.
Highs and lows. I've strayed at times from behaving in the way I want to but each time I find myself re-centering faster, like a rubber band whose elasticity increases with time. Perhaps this is the long-awaited detachment taking hold.
Summer is around the corner and I couldn't be more excited. A good friend just bought a small boat and we plan to spearfish up and down the coast all summer long. I want to teach the kids to surf this year too, something that I spent years doing and brought me a lot of happiness. Camping trips are booked.
So that's all for now. I still check the boards weekly and appreciate you asking after me. Thanks again to everyone who has weighed in and continues to check in.
