Thanks all. I have been documenting the drinking in general via my own journal and some notes on my phone, mainly describing when she is drunk and what happens. My L had recommended the same when we first met earlier this year. W became suspicious shortly after DDay because she opened a drink in the vehicle I was driving while sitting next to our kids and once the car stopped moving I texted her about it, which she interpreted as me creating a paper trail. And yes, you read that correctly: my drunk W opened a drink in the car I was driving (dead sober) while she was sitting next to my D6.
On another note: I have a sense that I am directionless and could use some guidance or maybe just a pep talk.
W hosted Christmas Eve and I opted not to attend because I have not seen behaviors that are congruent with reconciliation. W is now out of town at her family's home w our kids and I have opted not to attend. We have some neighborhood friends who are hosting a NYE party and I told W I plan not to attend with her. In all of these instances W has asked me to come and I have declined, saying I have other plans.
My thinking is this: W had an affair, lied to me for 3 years about it, continues to drink and party, and our MR contains no intimacy. I don't want that degree of chaos in my life, I don't want a sexless marriage, and I don't want a relationship devoid of connection. DB says do the opposite of what you've done and that's what I'm doing: even in declining invites I am cheerful, and I no longer have emotional outbursts when she goads me. The goal for me is to detach and no longer feel stuck in a codependent MR so I can decide what I want for me. If the DB process works for me then W will fully recognize the damage done by her behavior and see me as someone she doesn't want to lose. My concern is that I don't think she'll get to that point and that I am spinning my wheels. W is very stubborn and feels adamant that I am overreacting to the A, saying it was a one off, she hates the guy, it was a long time ago, etc. She only wants to talk about it when drunk.
I guess what I'm saying is this: playing house with a dead MR feels like spinning my wheels and avoiding the hard conversation that needs to happen. I want to sit her down and say "It's been 3+ months since you've come clean and I haven't seen anything that suggests you fully understand the damage that's been done to the marriage. I'm ready to move on and it's time to talk about what that looks like." This si the opposite of the patience preached here, and the opposite of dropping the rope. Can someone whack me with a 2x4 and prevent me from doing more harm than good?
If you truly feel that way and are ready to have the discussion than do it. You’re not going to get the response you are looking for so you better be prepared to follow through with it. If this is just another threat it will put you in a weaker position that you are already in right now.
I agree 100% with Boat. To have that discussion, you need to be ready to follow through with whatever path reveals itself. Given you're relatively early in this process, as Boat suggests you're more likely to get continued rebellion against your marriage than the beginnings of a reconciliation. This is why you've read MWD talking about being "patient, very patient", hear about things like "piecing" over long periods of time, and read so much advice here about patience.
To me, it starts with taking a very hard and inward look at your values and motivations. I know I could not reconcile if my W had a physical affair. That destroyed my parents marriage and has been a well known boundary of mine going back as far as high school. You cheat; I'm done. That said, I know couples who've surviived and thrived after a PA.
I've not read MWD's book on inifidelty, but John Gottman has a good chapter on this topic in his "Making Love Last" book. It also includes a section about how "How to Know if It's Time to Go" that you may find helpful. I'd also recommend the book "Too Good to Leave; Too Bad to Stay" which asks some thought-provoking questions and includes recommendations about when to stay/go. These are my go-to resources when i need a gut punch or reality check.
At the end of the day, no book or forum is likely to give us guidance as clear as we'd like. You pull together the best information you can to decide what is best for you and your kid(s). A good IC (with training in marital issues) can help too. As you know "you didn't break her; you can't fix her". She has to go through whatever she's experiencing. It doesn't sound like she's anywhere near done with that yet.
You comment about doing the DB work and, if she doesn't have an epiphany, having spun your wheels. Sounds to me like you're focused on doing this for her, rather than yourself. Doing the DB work should be about improving yourself for yourself. If it helps you decide D is best for you, then DBing is still a success.
Your move "Blondie"! (Insert theme from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" here).
Book a few sessions with a psychologist, lay it all out, tell them you think you’re ready to pull the ripcord.
They’ll be able to give you guidance on how to identify if you’re truly done so that you’ll be able to move forward with confidence.
The other thing to remember is that divorce is not necessarily the end. But it draws a very strong line in the sand. If you divorce her, then in two years she has a sudden epiphany and gets her sh** together, there’s nothing stopping her from coming back with an apology and a desire to try again. But in the meantime, it provides certainty for you emotionally and financially, plus it will make things more stable in the long term for your kids.
Generally though, by the time the wayward wakes up (if they ever do), the LBS’s position is a firm no because they’ve got their self respect back.
You’re not going to get the response you are looking for so you better be prepared to follow through with it.
You're right - having that conversation would be forcing the issue. I'm 90% there and getting closer to 100% each day that goes by, but not there yet.
Originally Posted by MrP
Doing the DB work should be about improving yourself for yourself. If it helps you decide D is best for you, then DBing is still a success.
I lost the plot here for a few days. The Christmas holiday had me overly focused on how things "should" be rather than how they are, and I was too focused on W - what is she doing, who is she talking to, etc. I see that now.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Book a few sessions with a psychologist, lay it all out, tell them you think you’re ready to pull the ripcord.
They’ll be able to give you guidance on how to identify if you’re truly done so that you’ll be able to move forward with confidence.
I have talked this over with my IC but frankly I don't like him much and am shopping for a new one. I'll keep this in mind, I really like the idea.
Originally Posted by MrP
Your move "Blondie"! (Insert theme from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" here).
"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig." Seems I have more digging to do.
And we're here to help dig with you! Great attitude M (and I love that quote).
One of the most challenging parts of this process for me is recognizing in the moment when we're going off track. Sometimes it is due to habit. Sometimes it is due to trying to steer things as you say to the way they "should" be or we want them to be. Other times lingering emotions get the best of us.
While your W didn't file for D, she's "fired" you in a different way (via infidelity). The old marriage/relationship is a goner. That is a really difficult pill to swallow given all you likely put into it. As Kind says, divorce doesn't mean things are over forever. It can mean you regain your confidence in yourself, control over your feelings, and operate from a stronger position to decide IF you want to allow W to show she deserves you back.
Also, I'm truly glad to see you catching yourself and course-correcting. Keep the momentum rolling, especially the self-awareness you're demonstrating.
Earlier in the week I was having a beer at a friend's house when a friend of my W's ex-AP showed up. This friend was also a friend of mine and knew about the A long before I did which remains embarrassing for me: being the last to know about the PA is one of the aspects of this I can't get past. Based on this and some other comments this guy has made over the years, I've decided I don't want him in my life anymore.
A friend who knows about an affair and yet says and does nothing… hmmm.
“My friends don’t treat me that way.” A good mantra or life pratice I’ve found that statement to be. Also sets your bar in your own “being a friend” behaviour with openness/honesty/sincerity. Kind of like the golden rule in that respect.
Originally Posted by Maturin
…remains embarrassing for me: being the last to know about the PA is one of the aspects of this I can't get past.
Realize it’s won’t get past, not can’t. Won’t = within your control and influence. Can’t = beyond you.
In time you will let go the embarrassment. You will let go the shame of being cheated on. And such.
It’s pretty strange how us LBS feel all the shameful emotions and yet we are the ones getting cheated on. It’s part of that “won’t” vs “can’t” which one comes to.
And “won’t” allows and leads to - “will” and “do”. Therefore “can”.
So, you can get past it. Just a few items to let go of and some other items to embrace.
Ask your self what, specifically, is it that you can’t get past. Be very specific. I think you’ll find you start with what friend did and with further digging you’ll end up with how you feel, and then why you feel.
You’ve no need or reason to be embarrassed. You do not control W, nor are responsible for her actions or inactions. Just your’s.
The same with friend’s behaviour and his lack of being forthright with you.
If you want to get past it - forgive him. Forgive his behaviour. Find the way, find forgiveness. You still can hold him accountable for his behaviour. You’ll just have no “need” for some payment or retribution or whatever. It’s freeing when one writes paid in full upon the debt they are carrying.
Grudges are rather heavy and take quite a toll and significant energies to lug around. Once you find the way to put it down, and the peace and strength you find, you’ll wonder why you didn’t do it sooner.
Of course, if you think you “can’t”, or tell yourself you “can’t”, you surely won’t.
And by the way, forgiving does not mean you and he are friends. Accountability is separate from forgiving. Forgiveness is for you. The person being forgiven doesn’t even have to know about it, and often doesn’t.
Originally Posted by Maturin
“I know who I want to hang out with, and I spend time with those people. He is not one of them.”
Good for you.
Originally Posted by Maturin
On another note: I have a sense that I am directionless and could use some guidance or maybe just a pep talk.
Perfectly normal. Indifference is a new experience. And, limbo takes some getting used to.
Are you truly directionless, or more feeling directionless?
I think you are experiencing indifference and how the void/numbness increases other feelings. You speak with conviction and clarity. You know how you want to be treated and how you treat others. You are following the path, and aspiring to be better. Doesn’t seem directionless when you step back and look.
I think you are looking for results. Understandable. And it’s good pratice to listen to life’s feedback. However, which are you listening to? Which are you focusing upon?
Originally Posted by Maturin
My thinking is this: W had an affair, lied to me for 3 years about it, continues to drink and party, and our MR contains no intimacy. I don't want that degree of chaos in my life, I don't want a sexless marriage, and I don't want a relationship devoid of connection. DB says do the opposite of what you've done and that's what I'm doing: even in declining invites I am cheerful, and I no longer have emotional outbursts when she goads me. The goal for me is to detach and no longer feel stuck in a codependent MR so I can decide what I want for me. If the DB process works for me then W will fully recognize the damage done by her behavior and see me as someone she doesn't want to lose. My concern is that I don't think she'll get to that point and that I am spinning my wheels. W is very stubborn and feels adamant that I am overreacting to the A, saying it was a one off, she hates the guy, it was a long time ago, etc. She only wants to talk about it when drunk.
Your goal is well stated. Basically to find you and decide your life. So, why do you feel it is spinning your wheels if W doesn’t find her life too? Uncouple that goal of your’s from W’s journey and/or her success or not. You will be successful regardless of her path/choices.
Originally Posted by Maturin
I guess what I'm saying is this: playing house with a dead MR feels like spinning my wheels and avoiding the hard conversation that needs to happen. I want to sit her down and say "It's been 3+ months since you've come clean and I haven't seen anything that suggests you fully understand the damage that's been done to the marriage. I'm ready to move on and it's time to talk about what that looks like." This is the opposite of the patience preached here, and the opposite of dropping the rope. Can someone whack me with a 2x4 and prevent me from doing more harm than good?
Three months is not very long. And I don’t see your marriage as totally dead. Sure it’s hurting and battered, yet W is still there and she still talks to you, albeit mostly when she’s drunk.
“I’m ready to move on…”. Is it move on or move forward? Be sure. Moving forward is usually the better option, less damages, more thoughtful action. And remember, doing nothing is still doing something.
Dig for patience. Dig deep! Answers, the ones that really matter, will reveal themselves when you are calm and at peace. You still have the gift of time, no need to rush anything.
Decisions made based upon emotions lead to regret. Take action (that can include being still or taking no action) based upon logic and reason. Better yet your deeply held convictions. That process of discovering and strengthening one’s values takes time. Give yourself that gift.
Originally Posted by Maturin
“It's been 3+ months since you've come clean and I haven't seen anything that suggests you fully understand the damage that's been done to the marriage.”
M, yes there is damage to the marriage. Lots of damages in lots of places. Let’s set the marriage aside for a minute while we talk here.
What is damaged within you? What is hurt within you? I know how deeply betrayal cuts. Right to the soul. Betrayal is the worst thing one can do to another person. It lingers and festers and poisons the soul.
Consider W. She did the deed. She actually betrayed. You, the marriage, the kids. Betrayed herself! Imagine how horrible, how inconsolable one would be, if/when they truly could/did/do see and understand the scope and fallout of their actions.
Originally Posted by Maturin
She only wants to talk about it when drunk.
Not all that surprising. She’s done something that is difficult to face.
An ultimatum is likely have negative consequences. W is just not yet ready to face this.
A while ago W did come clean. I know you’d like some more and better assurances, something more concrete and current. Yet, ask yourself, what would that be? Look deep. What could W do or say that would authentically and effectively make you trust and be better?
The truth is there is nothing immediate she can do. Consistent and demonstrated behaviour is about the only thing. However, your healing comes from within you. (I’ve got some experience in this. My XW is still running and has nothing to do with me and very little to do with the kids. If I chose to heal based upon her, I’d still be in bad shape.)
Yes, you have not seen anything from W to suggest she understands the damages done. That doesn’t mean she doesn’t know. She’s just not, or incapable of expressing it yet.
Her excessive drinking doesn’t help things. And that is compounding your situation.
I’d likely, instead of sitting her down and telling her, let her talk during one of those drunk times. Let her spill her feelings to you for a bit. Be a safe place for her to land. No pressure either. Demanding talks, or wanting her change, realize, and/or demonstrate remorse for what she’s done are incredible pressures. And likely come through in your behaviours. Let it go. Drop the rope. Expect nothing. Just seeing where she is, kind of.
With the ice somewhat broken after that, further conversations might be had with more sobriety and lucidity. Well hopefully.
Still, W needs to feel the loss. Keep moving forward, focusing on you and the kids.
Have you forgiven the lying? The affair? Or are you waiting for something? What is it you feeling or think you are waiting for?
Originally Posted by Maturin
We had previously agreed to table all divorce discussion until after the holidays. Now that they're ending I have some decisions to make about next steps.
Take all the time you need before making decisions. Utilize that gift.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Wow - I ask for a pep talk/guidance and you guys really deliver! Thank you so much.
Originally Posted by MrP
One of the most challenging parts of this process for me is recognizing in the moment when we're going off track.
Agreed. I do notice I am getting better at this, and becoming more consistent. Baby steps.
D, your writing has given me a lot to think about.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Realize it’s won’t get past, not can’t. Won’t = within your control and influence. Can’t = beyond you.]
Roger that.
Originally Posted by DnJ
You’ve no need or reason to be embarrassed. You do not control W, nor are responsible for her actions or inactions. Just your’s.
I know this is true, but I also struggle with it. I am bothered by the idea that if I had been a "better man" (more assertive, stood up for boundaries, stood up for our marriage when she felt picked on) then the cycle of resentment > contempt > disrespect > affair could have been avoided. I work every day to not dwell in the past, but it's a slow process.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Have you forgiven the lying? The affair? Or are you waiting for something? What is it you feeling or think you are waiting for?
If I'm being honest, I have not actually forgiven any of it yet. Not the affair, not the lying, not the years of gaslighting. I'm still very angry about it on some days and at peace with it on other days (of course I do not show the anger to her, I scream in the car or hit the weights extra hard).
What am I waiting for? I am waiting for genuine remorse demonstrated through consistent behavior. I have seen the opposite. I know the remorse may never come, as evidenced by the way your XW has so shabbily treated you. And yet, you healed and I assume forgave. So how do I arrive at forgiveness even while the wayward behavior continues? I have resolved not to let her past, present, or future actions determine the course of my own life. But unless I forgive her, then I am actually allowing her past actions to influence me. I have to find the path that leads to genuine forgiveness for my own well being.
During this process I find myself gravitating towards two kinds of online writers: former WWs who have reconciled and can articulate the lifecycle of their betrayals with clarity, and LBHs who were able to move on and thrive without reconciliation. Each group provides me with optimism: on the one hand, I hope my W becomes a former WW who sees the damage she has done and does the work to reconcile. On the other hand, I know I can move beyond this immense pain and world-shattering upheaval and become like D and the countless other LBHs who have built their lives anew.
I shudder to think where I would be without this forum. Thanks for what you guys do, I will repay your generosity by listening to and acting on your advice. In a few hours my W and kids will be home; I'll greet them with open arms and be the same breezy, fun, confident guy I've been since reading about DR. Tomorrow I will load the kids up for a weekend away with just Dad. One day at a time.
I am in the middle of this and share a brotherhood with you and others here. I continue to learn and grow with my realization that forgiveness is a choice and it doesn’t mean not feeling angry, hurt, etc. it also doesn’t mean suppressing emotions or ignoring what they are there to tell me.
My XW is still running and has nothing to do with me and very little to do with the kids. If I chose to heal based upon her, I’d still be in bad shape.)