The last few days have been great. I've been busy at work as the calendar year comes to a close. Some mild weather gave me a chance to complete a last bit of landscaping before we got any major snow. A few of my investment decisions from the last 2-3 years are doing quite nicely so, as a personal finance hobbyist, I got a bit of a rush from that success.
As far as DBing goes, my detaching and GALing are going well. I've been diving into cataloging a comic book collection because I'd like to sell off all but a few storylines that are meaningful to me. I donated a bunch of old clothing and slimmed-down things that are solely "mine" around the house. I've also added some new clothes to my wardrobe and received compliments from friends and co-workers about my appearance. Being sick for two weeks helped me shed about 10 pounds so there is some silver lining to that otherwise miserable period.
I'm doing well at minimizing conversation with W and keeping my words to a minimum. W tried striking up social conversation on a few topics. My responses were pleasant and brief while pivoting to complete some tasks that W knew I'd been trying to get to around the house, meaning I exited EVERY conversation first. My next goal is to finish Christmas shopping over the weekend. Shopping will be crazy around here now and I love that, especially when compared with when we were locked down due to COVID.
I hope all is going as well as it can for all of you. I'm enjoying a book recommended elsewhere on this site (and out of print) called The Solo Partner. I'm hopeful I'll be able to share in my future posts some suggestions from that book that I'm finding helpful in case you may too.
Oh and I see I titled this "Thread" my 2nd "Threat" so I'm hoping a moderator can fix that issue since I'm not "Threatening" anyone or anything!
(Title all fixed up. Less threatening now. Haha. - DnJ)
Last edited by DnJ; 12/15/2301:29 AM. Reason: Confirming title correction.
Thanks, DnJ for the edits. It is much less threatening now!
W surprised me and asked if we could go to my old parish for Christmas mass because D13 has taken an interest in my religious upbringing. W is non-denominational. I'm a lapsed Catholic. However, my church community has remained solid, the church is beautifully decorated for the holidays, and the choir sounds fantastic. I will enjoy being back "home" for sure. I also love showing D13 a bit of what my life was like growing up. I said "Let's talk when we have more time" and headed out to work.
I also found out a 2nd cousin who was fairly active in our family passed away unexpectedly. It always seems like this time of each leads to two or three unexpected deaths among my family, friends, or co-workers. D13 doesn't get to see this extended family often and, while a sad event, appreciates knowing we've got more family out there than she originally understood.
I've got some winterizing fertilizer ready to spread. Decided to start another, indoor improvement project. We'll see some more of my immediate family on Sunday for another event. Have a good weekend, all.
It illustrates how challenging it can be to break old habits and form new, better ones. It might be silly but I put a slight dot on my hand with a Sharpie as a reminder to STFU and be more frugal with my words when I interact with W.
That’s a good idea.
It takes about three weeks of purposeful effort to form a habit. And about twice as long to break a habit. That purposeful effort becoming minimal or ingrained as the habit takes hold. After all, that is what a habit basically is.
Another “tool” for behaviour modification - a rubber band sitting loosely around your wrist. When you feel the push/need to do something, give the rubber band a pull and let it go. Albeit, this tactic is better suited to say detachment. For example, when one’s emotions get dragged around, give that rubber band a snap. That snap interrupts our feelings and our reinforcement of them, which allows them to extinguish. Like the sharpie mark, something to focus (or snap into focus) one’s purposeful effort.
Congratulations on your investment decisions. A very nice success. (MrP now riding around in a Ferrari. )
Your life sounds full. Work, comics, house projects, etc. Excellent!
I think it is a lovely idea to take D13 to your old parish for Christmas mass. I’m sure she’ll enjoy seeing it, and seeing a bit of your childhood life.
Regarding W, keep expectations at zero. She may go, she may cancel, she may be talkative, she may be silent. Just go with the flow.
Enjoy the gift shopping this weekend.
Merry Christmas to you and your’s.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I like the rubber band idea as well and can see where a good "snap" will come in handy at times. The investment decisions weren't as grand as to be able to fund that Ferrari, but they will help offset some expenses for the next five years or so. Shopping is almost done so that will be a relief. I'm rounding out the rest of my gifts with restaurant gift cards because my older family tends to like those experiences.
I attended my cousin's funeral yesterday. Though sad, it was nice to see family who'd come from all over the country. We laughed. We cried. We said goodbye in the best way possible. I also met some of the younger generation of cousins I've not previously had a chance to meet. I found myself quite happy to talk with them.
I'm excited to take D13 to mass. I'm not always thrilled with some of the new hymns or changes to old ones. That is a small price to pay for the overall experience with D13.
Merry Christmas DnJ (and to everyone). I'm so glad this board is welcoming, supportive, and pushing me to reflect on my own BS/blind spots/avoidance. The growth I'm experiencing as a result is a great help.
Thanks, Steve. For some reason, something "clicked" recently for me. I've been taking lots of action to figure out what makes me happy, what's best for D13, and just thinking each day about the best I can do that day, one at a time. Re-reading this material repeatedly, and journaling the things that really resonate, is helpful when trying to help others. Thanks for all your input. Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones as well.
MrP I find your thread encouraging. I remember a feeling of inability to summon myself when going through these difficult times and to read one where someone in our position seems to have that ability to reign themselves in and focus on themselves successfully ... it creates a hope that we can live happily even in the face of great adversity. I realize you're likely still facing overwhelming challenge but it sounds to me like you're doing it right. I wish you the best.
M: 43 W: 43 Married 6 yrs. T: 7 yrs. Son 20, 18, 17, 15 yrs. (w/ Autism), 12, 10
Thanks, Steve. For some reason, something "clicked" recently for me. I've been taking lots of action to figure out what makes me happy, what's best for D13, and just thinking each day about the best I can do that day, one at a time. Re-reading this material repeatedly, and journaling the things that really resonate, is helpful when trying to help others. Thanks for all your input. Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones as well.
I remember my "it just clicked" moment in my own situation. Shortly after I found the board (even though I had known about MWD and DBing for years), I was at work and it hit me that I was going to be ok no matter what. I remember I was able to go eat lunch for the first time in weeks! And I was actually hungry. Now there were moments of doom and gloom and temptation to do things I knew I shouldn't (like snoop and or start an R talk) after that, but it really kick started my becoming more consistent in my DBing with less back sliding.
By the way, the effects of that on my WAS were fairly immediate and noticable. Not that she gave up on her desire for D right away, but I could tell her commitment to that course of action began to wane.
You'll have rough days ahead, but you are headed in the right direction.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks, both Bunches and Steve. The feedback received from this community, lots of re-reading, and self-reflection are steadily coming together. Given this is my 2nd time with DBing, and initially the first time was filled with doing many of the wrong things until my IC turned me on to MWD, I found this forum, and got one of the DB coaches, was just miserable. Over the last 4-5 years, I've put into practice a great deal of what we discuss here, as well as other marital gurus like Gottman (becoming an expert on W) and Tatkin (especially his guidance around avoidant attachment).
When D came up again a few months ago, while I was still a bit shocked, it didn't hit me as hard as the first time. I'm pretty darn proud of the changes I have made and continue to improve. There are moments when I slip up or repeat an old habit. Those moments are few and far between. The idea that "you didn't break S and can't fix S" really sunk in for me over the last few weeks.
I can tell when W is trying to initiate conflict so that she can attribute responsibility to me for something. I let that bait go untouched. I've told W that I deserve to talk about any given topic courteously and respectfully or I will not participate. By GALing, I've given W time and space to see that "stuff happens" even when I am not around. Until the discussion about D is resolved, my services as a H are unavailable. Aside from consultation to ensure D13 won't be alone or her needs otherwise addressed, my plans are my own.
Bunches, I like the idea of being able to "summon myself". The first time this happened, I'd just come off a terrible time at work. I was also diagnosed with a disability that, while manageable, left me depressed. It was really difficult to choose to summon my best self. I've been on much better footing and more confident this time around. My diet is better. I'm working out. I'm sleeping well. I've got plans if we D and plans if we don't.
So far, it isn't overwhelming (been there, done that). It is challenging. There are rough days. I will be OK as I know will most if not all of us here. I've got a nice plot of land for now in Limboland, time to do lots of positive things for myself, D13, family, friends, and professionally with the the gift of time for now. Again, I'm grateful for your feedback and hope I can be helpful to you in return.
The last few days went relatively well. Several of my in-laws were sick, so D13, W, and I ended up alone at home for Christmas Eve. We didn't do mass because D13 also felt sick. I ran out to pull together an alternate menu that was delicious. We played a few games, watched some Christmas movies, and called it a night.
The next moring. I finished wrapping gifts for D13 and from D13 to W. D13 seemed to like all of her gifts. Once the dust settled, she and her friends were on FaceTime, showing off their gifts and wishing each other Merry Christmas.
D13 later asked W if W was coming to my family's house on Christmas Day. I'd previously told her she was welcome and it was also fine if she had other plans. W opted to join us. D13 was happy. I felt as I have when I've invited a friend to join my family when their plans fell through or they'd otherwise be alone (which W would've done due to much of her family being sick). I lost a friend to suicide on a holiday many years ago whose loneliness got the better of him. That experience left me with a "thing" about people I know being alone on a major holiday.
I observed a few things. Everyone had a good time. W also commented that next year we should leave our dog at home so that W will worry less about it snatching food (which it didn't). Given discussions about D, I didn't respond since my understanding we won't be together at that point. W made a similar, future-oriented comment later (about food or drink to bring next year) in the evening that I can't fully recall. To me, both felt like temperature checks. Neither of them required a reply from me so, in the spirit of DBing, I just noted that she made them without assigning further value to them.
This morning, D13 and W talked about how much they enjoyed yesterday. We had five family dogs running around, ate well, drank, laughed, and stayed in the moment. I slept like a rock. Splurged on some more expensive coffee, and started the time-honored tradition of assembling some of D13s gifts. I also threw on "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" which is a tradition my dad and I started long ago. I'm out the door to attend a birthday party solo tonight. I'm also going out with my oldest friends in a few days as part of another tradition.
DnJ, you'll hopefully be proud to know that I'm following your sage advice and making myself comfortable in Limboland!
W also commented that next year we should leave our dog at home so that W will worry less about it snatching food (which it didn't). Given discussions about D, I didn't respond since my understanding we won't be together at that point. W made a similar, future-oriented comment later (about food or drink to bring next year) in the evening that I can't fully recall. To me, both felt like temperature checks. Neither of them required a reply from me so, in the spirit of DBing, I just noted that she made them without assigning further value to them.
My W does the same thing, MrP. She will make comments about getting a dog someday, remodeling the house, or getting a new mattress. I like to validate the statement and nothing else ("A dog is great for families" or "I can see what you mean, this mattress is old"). Looks like you handled it well.
Originally Posted by MrP
I also threw on "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" which is a tradition my dad and I started long ago.
An all-time classic! I actually picture Clint Eastwood's character in this film as part of a mental exercise I do to stay grounded. Nothing rattles Blondie.
Originally Posted by MrP
DnJ, you'll hopefully be proud to know that I'm following your sage advice and making myself comfortable in Limboland!
You are inspiring to readers like me who are still learning what Limboland is all about.
Thanks, M. It is tough to shed or compartmentalize the emotions that this experience can present. DnJ often reminds people about the gift of time. I've not been as present in so many moments of my day as I should be. It has been helpful to stop and enjoy a good cup of coffee, a moment of near-complete quiet, or get lost in a 2-3-hour workout.
W pulled me aside to say we need to talk about what we're doing. The D papers she filed expire soon and if we're not going to do anything then she'll have wasted some money. She lobbed the idea of staying together at least through D13's time in high school to see how things go. Also, she noted that my mom was very kind to her on Christmas Day (recall they've had some struggles).
I said, "Hmm...say more about what that looks like to you". She said that she wasn't happy with potential housing options if we D, is not interested in jumping back into the dating pool, and wondered what the impact of this arrangement would be on D13.
My initial reaction: it felt like more temp checking with a bit of cake sampling. I thanked her for sharing. After pausing to show I'd listened, I said "I'm not certain I'd be satisfied with that arrangement. I need to think more about what is best for me and D13".
There would have to be meaningful, positive progress for me to stay. For example, W needs to make headway on resolving her prior traumas (for example, resume seeing a good IC, increase her meds, or some similar, concrete short-term results). Fix herself first and then see if we can move to steadily piecing.
I ended the conversation by saying "I need to hit the restroom" which, if not over-used, can be a great way to exit these conversations first. I didn't commit to a specific date for a follow-up discussion. As advised in previous responses to my posts, I can go down this road with her. I don't have to help pave it.
By comparison, I feel optimistic about my potential life post-D. I wonder if it may be better for me long-term. In my head, I hear our last MC telling me that W will have a tough time overcoming her past traumas such that our relationship would be stuck otherwise. D13 may also be better off seeing me do well both independently and, down the line, in a healthier relationship.
Before whatever alien abducted W, (MLC, WAS, mental health, menopause, etc.), we had a strong relationship. Once D13 came along, it seemed to up the ante in terms of W's anxiety to a point where she is more easily overwhelmed by life stuff. Part of being a good H means standing by a W through (sickness and health, til death do us part), right? I also recall MWD suggesting kids are one, important (not the primary) reason couples should work to stay happy and together. This site is about DBing after all.
Since this conversation is fresh, I'm going to kick it around in my head for a day or two. Thoughts appreciated, as always. Be well!
I was reading along, catching up after a few busy days here with family and kids. I smiled at your acceptance and embracing of things and uncertainty.
Originally Posted by MrP
DnJ, you'll hopefully be proud to know that I'm following your sage advice and making myself comfortable in Limboland!
Got to admit, I’m touched.
I was reading along and did a long pause here. Yes, I am proud of you. Sincerely, you are doing very well. Good living and good advice to fellow posters/travellers.
Originally Posted by MrP
W pulled me aside to say we need to talk about what we're doing. The D papers she filed expire soon and if we're not going to do anything then she'll have wasted some money. She lobbed the idea of staying together at least through D13's time in high school to see how things go. Also, she noted that my mom was very kind to her on Christmas Day (recall they've had some struggles).
Interesting.
I believe awakening starts with a whisper of doubt.
You replied well, and nicely did not jump upon her plan, nor committed to anything.
Thanking her for sharing was excellent.
If you decide to follow up, I’d add something along the lines of “I am willing to explore you and I. To see if we still have any spark or chemistry. To see if we get along. I’m different. I’ve changed and grown; you might not like who I’ve become.”
Also, it’s Christmas. This time of year stirs emotions. Lots of folks feel regrets and such, and those feelings flit as quick as the decorations are boxed away.
Still, emotions do come from somewhere. Inside W there is something going on. Will she’ll bury it or face it.
Originally Posted by MrP
Part of being a good H means standing by a W through (sickness and health, til death do us part), right? I also recall MWD suggesting kids are one, important (not the primary) reason couples should work to stay happy and together. This site is about DBing after all.
Right you are.
W obviously has some feelings of loss. This is good. Let those feelings help the cause.
Yes, kids are important. So is respect and loyalty and faithfulness.
In my opinion, most marriages fail, as do reconciliations, because of love. Let me explain a bit.
Getting married because you love them is not a good thing. You already have the love, so why get married?
Marrying for love is no better than marrying for money, or power, or fame, etc. As love waxes and wanes so does the “reason” to be married.
Instead, people should marry because they respect the other person. They respect and value that other person’s beliefs, viewpoints, opinions, choices, and so on. Of course they love them. Yet realize, love is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. Respect is the cake and substance of a relationship.
Something to consider while in Limboland.
Respect is still possible even while indifferent. A better chance at a successful reconciliation comes from knowing, actually believing, in respect towards the other person. Consistent and demonstrated positive behaviour fosters respect. Love will come.
It takes time and effort to regain respect and trust. Oh both sides. To both find it, and to demonstrate it. When gauging probabilities look to those signs, rather than signs of love and feelings. IMHO.
Originally Posted by MrP
DnJ often reminds people about the gift of time.
You have the gift of time here. Use it well.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi all. Hope everyone is doing as well as possible.
As a quick recap, the D paperwork W had prepped was set to expire next week if I wasn't served. I knew that could lead to 1) being served 2) not being served and 3) not being served with the potential to be served further down the road. W asked to talk and let tearfully let me know that she chose to move forward with the D. I said I understood and repeated something one of the DB counselors taught me ~5 years ago "To me, divorce isn't the solution to our problems. However, I love and respect you enough to let go".
Overall, I feel relief. I'm still at peace with either path (D or not D with my boundaries and requirements being actively addressed. I've done too much work to settle for less).
I know that being served isn't the end and there is a lot of time before a judge bangs a gavel down and declares the marriage officially done. I've got plans tomorrow with friends from high school. I'm watching the NCAA football championship with other friends.
Most of my property is pre-marital so, thanks to my L, I have a good sense of how those chips will fall if the D becomes final. In some ways, being better prepared for a D makes the other half of DBing easier for me. I continue to focus on me and D13, remain aloof and positive when around W, and am glad for the support of this community. I can see W is struggling and sad. While I wish I could say and do more, I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago. I can offer the support I'd offer a friend if they ask. Otherwise, W is getting lots more time and space.
As always, thanks, each of you, for being along (virtually) for the ride. It helps!
MrP - well done on handling a tough situation. I commend you on staying centered and grounded, your example shows me and other newbies what is possible when faced with non-ideal outcomes.
Enjoy the weekend and the GAL time you've scheduled for yourself.
MrP - well done on handling a tough situation. I commend you on staying centered and grounded, your example shows me and other newbies what is possible when faced with non-ideal outcomes.
Enjoy the weekend and the GAL time you've scheduled for yourself.
Thanks, M. You're too kind! I certainly didn't get to this point overnight. The 1st DB was a variation of similar experiences to what many others here describe. I made tons of mistakes. I make fewer mistakes now. I resisted the techniques that others discussed and was too...scared perhaps...to actively post on this board. I felt like this time I needed to give back to this community that has been so helpful. It makes me happy to hear I'm helping others in any way I can.
And I haven't even bought my usual 1-2 Christmas presents for myself yet so I've got to find some time to pick those up this weekend too. With gratitude, P
You are walking an excellent path. Regarding D, continue to only respond to W, and leave her to the heavy lifting.
Originally Posted by MrP
Most of my property is pre-marital so, thanks to my L, I have a good sense of how those chips will fall if the D becomes final.
Speaking with a lawyer and knowing your rights and likely outcome, as well as best and worse case scenarios, is most wise.
Originally Posted by MrP
In some ways, being better prepared for a D makes the other half of DBing easier for me.
Absolutely. Knowing the business side of this allows one put more of their efforts into their emotional healing path.
Originally Posted by MrP
I continue to focus on me and D13, remain aloof and positive when around W, and am glad for the support of this community. I can see W is struggling and sad. While I wish I could say and do more, I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago.
“I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago.” That is a good outlook. Now make hay. Time and space. Let her feel her choices.
Originally Posted by MrP
I can offer the support I'd offer a friend if they ask. Otherwise, W is getting lots more time and space.
I’d likely would not provide the same support as I would a friend. After all, are you and her, friends?
Originally Posted by MrP
And I haven't even bought my usual 1-2 Christmas presents for myself yet so I've got to find some time to pick those up this weekend too.
Now you can get those presents on sale.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi DnJ. Thanks for weighing in and for the helpful overview of how to use various commands on this site.
Originally Posted by DnJ
I'd likely would not provide the same support as I would a friend. After all, are you and her, friends?
Fair question. I wrestle with this a bit. Because of D13, I hesitate to think of W as just an acquaintance or someone with whom I have a business relationship. If we D, I want to maintain at least a productive relationship with W for D13's sake. One thing I remember from growing up with divorced parents is that my dad remained friendly and positive when dealing with my mother, no matter what. It wasn't reciprocated, but he did it anyway. Still does today. I realize W and I needn't be friends if we D to have a productive relationship.
When I think of friends that may be on the lower-effort side of my overall spectrum of friends, if one of them were to call me and ask for help, I'd at least try to be there to provide some fundamental support. I'd not do the same for people I'd consider acquaintances like a former co-worker with whom I lack a social relationship. Right now, W feels like something in-between to me.
At the same time, I realize that offering too much support to an XW can enable cake-eating. I expect one has to find a balance between demonstrating to one's child that you care about what matters to the child and doing things consistent with your values in terms of helping others, while also maintaining healthy boundaries with an ex-. I guess this is going to be a work in progress for me to explore. Again, I appreciate you raising it.
Hi all. Hope everyone is doing as well as possible.
As a quick recap, the D paperwork W had prepped was set to expire next week if I wasn't served. I knew that could lead to 1) being served 2) not being served and 3) not being served with the potential to be served further down the road. W asked to talk and let tearfully let me know that she chose to move forward with the D. I said I understood and repeated something one of the DB counselors taught me ~5 years ago "To me, divorce isn't the solution to our problems. However, I love and respect you enough to let go".
Overall, I feel relief. I'm still at peace with either path (D or not D with my boundaries and requirements being actively addressed. I've done too much work to settle for less).
I know that being served isn't the end and there is a lot of time before a judge bangs a gavel down and declares the marriage officially done. I've got plans tomorrow with friends from high school. I'm watching the NCAA football championship with other friends.
Most of my property is pre-marital so, thanks to my L, I have a good sense of how those chips will fall if the D becomes final. In some ways, being better prepared for a D makes the other half of DBing easier for me. I continue to focus on me and D13, remain aloof and positive when around W, and am glad for the support of this community. I can see W is struggling and sad. While I wish I could say and do more, I'm even more fired now than I was a day ago. I can offer the support I'd offer a friend if they ask. Otherwise, W is getting lots more time and space.
As always, thanks, each of you, for being along (virtually) for the ride. It helps!
My guess is every single person gets to that point eventually. The ironic part is that showing strength gives you the best chance to reconcile. Also, if you truly love someone you will give them what makes them happy. You have hit the nail on the head that this is all about fear it really has nothing to do with your wife and who she is as a person. With time and distance you will see it. The problem is that your brain is trying everything in its power to get you to stay in this “safe place” and wait for the storm to blow over. It’s up to you to decide if you should ride the storm out and see if your current place is salvageable or you evacuate and go build a potentially amazing place somewhere else.
As far as your responsibility in the breakdown of your marriage. It’s great that you acknowledge it, some don’t, but remember that you did the best that you could with the knowledge you had at the time.
Thank you, Boat. Right on all counts. I love the comparison to a storm. I do feel like I was responsive to the information that I received when I received it. I could've picked up the issues sooner, understand that much better now, and will be a a great partner to someone who reciprocates it.
Thought I'd stop by and share a brief update. All is fairly quiet around here. I acknowledged receipt of the divorce papers and sent the rest off to my L. L and I did share a quick update on my desired strategy for approaching D. D13 is my priority. Everything else will be fine and I'm expecting to do a bit better than if W and I weren't keeping the peace.
Last weekend, I had a great time out with some friends for a milestone birthday party. I reconnected with a male friend from high school who just got out of a relationship. We're planning to get together regularly. Bumped into an ex-girlfriend at this party. She texted me afterward a few times and I've been spare in my responses. The whole group is also going to try to get together every few months so that would be a nice surprise.
I'm making my way through the house taking care of repair and improvement work that I tend to defer until the cold weather hits. I enjoy manual labor: doing a quality job, the sense of completion, and the pure focus on the task. We got hit with a ton of snow and cold weather so I got a great workout clearing that up. Tomorrow it's back to the treadmill and free weights for a few hours.
W commented about potentially sleeping in the master bedroom with me this weekend. I said "Sure" in a neutral tone". I'm expecting mixed signals like this will pop up now and then. Thankfully I'm prepped to keep practicing my DB habits.
D13 appears to be handling things well. From the sound of things, she talks with me more openly and directly than W. I talk positively about W, reiterate none of this is due to D13, and assure her that I'll bust my butt to make sure life for us is as good as possible. I remind her she is well-loved by many family and friends. We're all here for her however she'd like us to be.
And so, another day passes in Limboland. It feels great to slow life down. I'm picking up books I've set aside and making time to read them. I'm hoping to pick up a new laptop so that I can use it for a side hustle or two. All in all, it has been a peaceful week. I wish the same for all of you.
Not much new to share. My L is getting a response to the D papers back to me. Pretty straightforward stuff. Focusing on GAL and went out with the father of one of D13's friends. He is from the UK so not too much community here. Lots of good discussion about concerts we attended around the same time, great beer, and aspirations of books we expect to write at some point.
W commented how late I got home. I said "Yeah that was late", got some coffee, and headed up to my home office. I showered then W came in to shower. She made some flirty jokes while almost naked and threw me a sexy smile. I closed the bathroom door, didn't look back, and got ready to take D13 shopping. My observation based on a few things that happened over the last week is that W is wrestling a bit with my being less social and starting to see what shouldering certain things solo (dealing with automotive issues, being the only one caring for the dog that W wanted, technology issues, etc.) is going to be like. W reluctantly asked for help with 1-2 things. Since we're still under the same roof and I want D13 to know that I expect to treat W with kindness, I helped W out.
W ended up joining our mall trip to help D13 pick out some new outfits. It was a pleasant trip and I know D13 was happy the three of us spent the day together. W suggested that I join her and D13 on two, upcoming trips with my in-laws. I countered with "Thanks. I was thinking of taking a solo trip since you two will be gone and I've not done one in a while" and left it at that. Felt like another temp-check and, if I were to go, like setting the stage for some cake eating (all the benefits of a husband for W w/o being one - I'd be another driver, problem-solver, decision-maker, help keep D13 occupied, etc.). I'd rather take the time to relax at home or on a short, solo getaway.
I'm planning to work out for ~ 2 hours tomorrow, making a good breakfast, and catching up on reading 1-2 books I picked up over the holiday: one fiction book and another a book on improving one's mental health. I love grocery shopping so tomorrow I'll be stocking up on stuff for the week ahead. Temps are super cold here right now so I try to enjoy the crisp, fresh air each morning. I've not felt so relaxed for a while. If you aren't making time to slow life down a bit, I encourage you to do it. Make a list of 2-3 things you typically enjoy and make some time to stretch out enjoying them!
Not much new to share. My L is getting a response to the D papers back to me. Pretty straightforward stuff. Focusing on GAL and went out with the father of one of D13's friends. He is from the UK so not too much community here. Lots of good discussion about concerts we attended around the same time, great beer, and aspirations of books we expect to write at some point.
W commented how late I got home. I said "Yeah that was late", got some coffee, and headed up to my home office. I showered then W came in to shower. She made some flirty jokes while almost naked and threw me a sexy smile. I closed the bathroom door, didn't look back, and got ready to take D13 shopping. My observation based on a few things that happened over the last week is that W is wrestling a bit with my being less social and starting to see what shouldering certain things solo (dealing with automotive issues, being the only one caring for the dog that W wanted, technology issues, etc.) is going to be like. W reluctantly asked for help with 1-2 things. Since we're still under the same roof and I want D13 to know that I expect to treat W with kindness, I helped W out.
W ended up joining our mall trip to help D13 pick out some new outfits. It was a pleasant trip and I know D13 was happy the three of us spent the day together. W suggested that I join her and D13 on two, upcoming trips with my in-laws. I countered with "Thanks. I was thinking of taking a solo trip since you two will be gone and I've not done one in a while" and left it at that. Felt like another temp-check and, if I were to go, like setting the stage for some cake eating (all the benefits of a husband for W w/o being one - I'd be another driver, problem-solver, decision-maker, help keep D13 occupied, etc.). I'd rather take the time to relax at home or on a short, solo getaway.
I'm planning to work out for ~ 2 hours tomorrow, making a good breakfast, and catching up on reading 1-2 books I picked up over the holiday: one fiction book and another a book on improving one's mental health. I love grocery shopping so tomorrow I'll be stocking up on stuff for the week ahead. Temps are super cold here right now so I try to enjoy the crisp, fresh air each morning. I've not felt so relaxed for a while. If you aren't making time to slow life down a bit, I encourage you to do it. Make a list of 2-3 things you typically enjoy and make some time to stretch out enjoying them!
Just stopping by to see how others are doing and share a quick update. My L sent my wife's L our resposne to the divorce complaint. W broke down in tears while cooking a bit after reading my response. I had my L make some adjustments to the standard responses where the "respondent" simply affirms or denies statements in the divorce complaint (side note - how silly and archaic is this process). The main thing that upset W is that, in resposne to a standard statement about the "objects of matrimony" being destroyed beyond all hope for reconciliation, I asked my L to state that I "neither agree or disagree with that statement, leaving complainant (W) to her proofs" meaning I don't know if there is not hope for reconciliation. W said it bothered her that I wouldn't agree with her (that there isn't hope for reconciliation).
I said that I can see why from her perspective my agreeing may feel better. She was also upset that my L initially pushed back about either party getting child support. I stated that I understood that to be "boilerplate" language much like language W's attorney used in the complaint. It is likely in our state that W will get something (my income is double hers); no need to get into that in response to what W was saying at the time. I'm fired as an H and also her L. I ended the discussion by saying "I recongize this is a difficult time" and then said I was going to let D13 know dinner would be ready soon, giving W some time to regain her composure.
That's all for now folks.
Last edited by DnJ; 01/26/2404:52 PM. Reason: Fixed up a few typos.
Dropping in on your thread to say that your composure and cool head are a great example for those of us who might be heading to where you are. I have heard for a long time that if you do the work you will develop the strength to rise above the fear and you have personified that P.
Sometimes I think if I were the guy I am becoming now 10 years ago none of this would be happening, but that's a silly thought. In a strange way I am grateful for this growth even if it does mean D and a new path.
Thanks, M and D. Please excuse my typos too. Wow. I swear I proofed that post and Grammarly automatically checks everything I write. I may need to add an eye exam to my GAL schedule!
M, unfortunately, and as you know, we can't go back in time. I see Ws and Hs struggling over old wounds and expect both parties would do better if they could get a do-over. MWDs book resonated with me because of the focus she places on the future and solutions. If someone chooses to stay stuck in past injuries (real and perceived), chooses not to forgive, put effort into addressing their contributions, etc. while we are doing the DB work then, after allowing things to try and heal, moving on is in our best interest. I'll admit to still feeling fear while moving forward, enforcing boundaries, and doing other work. This forum, our collective stories, and perhaps some residual religious upbringing in my life among other things are driving me to have faith in what I'm doing. I believe (more often than not) I'm doing the right things.
Today, W also expressed disappointment that I would not join her, my in-laws, and D13 on a spring break trip this year that involved meeting up with W's best friend and husband. I restated what I'd previously stated - for me to remain home. Later, when we reflected on a milestone b-day we celebrated with these friends, I commented on what a great time we had. W sarcastically said, "Well, I guess we won't this time". Nothing to respond to there so I didn't.
I'm taking a vacation day so today has largely focused on updating my budget for the new year, relaxing with terrible, old horror movies (Phantasm anyone?), and hopefully time for a long workout. In case I'm not back here until Monday, I wish you all a great weekend.
Hey DnJ. It was a great weekend. Had several nice dinners. D13 is talking to me A LOT. And, I got some nice recognition today at work for a project that I finished on Sunday.
A few interesting things happening around here. W is frustrated that I won't join a trip with my in-laws and D13 to see W's best friend and her husband. I maintained it doesn't make sense to me.
Now my in-laws can't go so W is upset because W doesn't want to drive 8-10 hours alone with D13 across 2-3 states. She also said that D13 is upset about another change in plans (something similar happened last year at this time). I was walking out of the house as this conversation was happening with my MIL and didn't quite make it before W said, "Mom, let me call you back. H is leaving for work".
W proceeded to tell me about all the issues, lamenting her back luck, expressing her fear about driving along with D13, and a host of other issues. I know from experience that, in cases like this, W is looking for me to save the day with solutions. Instead, I just offered some validation along the lines of "Yeah that is rightfully disappointing". W stared at me as if to say "That's it. You're not going to offer to help?". Instead, I said, "I have to get to work for a morning meeting. Keep me posted on what you two are going to do" and off I went.
I'm getting all my asset and liability info to my L. We've got a six-month "cooling off" period to get thorough for Ds in my state. I've given my L some settlement parameters in hopes that the Ls can collaborate on something reasonable so this step in the process is resolved so I have some confidence about future living arrangements, spending power, etc. soon.
This weekend, going with D13 to see my nephew's game. I've got a new computer that I hope is the first component of a small business I'd like to build so I'll be setting that up. All in all, I feel like I'm still in a good spot.
Things have been relatively quiet until yesterday. W abruptly asked if I might be interested in revisiting counseling/therapy. I said I wasn't sure and I've been increasingly at peace with getting a D. W struggled to explain her reasoning for the sudden interest in revisiting counseling. Maybe a temperature check? I've been active in spending a mix of time with close friends, family, D13, and on my own doing several enjoyable things. I've attended a few celebrations, concerns, wine tastings, and D13s sporting events while trying to sketch out a small business plan.
I asked for some time to think about it. W suggested that, if I was open to it, perhaps each of us could identify 2-to 3 potential counselors to consider. I nodded and left the conversation there.
It is interesting because overnight I've been thinking more about how unattractive the behaviors that W had been engaging in have become to me. I realized my feelings of attraction to W had significantly dipped after the last few months.
For those who may not have time to go back and re-read my history, we faced several, common marital issues. This is my 2nd time DBing. Over the last 4-5 years, I've busted my tail to be responsive to fixing things I was doing that contributed to half of what got us to near D the first time around. Our former MC and my ongoing IC validated my efforts. I'd been feeling an increasing sense of closure as each day passed and though there are months left to go in the D process.
W hasn't reciprocated and that is a large part of why I'm skeptical about her ability to make and maintain positive changes. Still, in the spirit of MWD's writings, I tend to be anti-divorce unless there several things are present (physical or mental abuse, drugs/alcohol, specific mental health challenges, etc.). So, I'm assessing if W's mental health challenge is likely to continue to sabotage the chance for progress. I've not completely fallen out of love, and also believe D13 is one of many good reasons to try to repair things if that is genuinely possible. I don't want to lose my personal "hard-won gains" as we say and refuse to go back to much of what our old marriage looked like. I do feel like a prize at this point for the right partner.
And, I continue to appreciate this community. It truly provides me with a valued outlet. Helping and being helped. Be well, everyone.
Things have been relatively quiet until yesterday. W abruptly asked if I might be interested in revisiting counseling/therapy. I said I wasn't sure and I've been increasingly at peace with getting a D. W struggled to explain her reasoning for the sudden interest in revisiting counseling. Maybe a temperature check? I've been active in spending a mix of time with close friends, family, D13, and on my own doing several enjoyable things. I've attended a few celebrations, concerns, wine tastings, and D13s sporting events while trying to sketch out a small business plan.
Whether its a temp check or a waffling of emotions from your w matters not to what you are doing. You just stay detached and GAL like a mad man. Continue to let your w figure out her sh!t.
Originally Posted by MrP
I asked for some time to think about it. W suggested that, if I was open to it, perhaps each of us could identify 2-to 3 potential counselors to consider. I nodded and left the conversation there.
I know you were caught of guard - but IMHO - let her find the counselor. It would show motivation on her part.
Originally Posted by MrP
It is interesting because overnight I've been thinking more about how unattractive the behaviors that W had been engaging in have become to me. I realized my feelings of attraction to W had significantly dipped after the last few months.
This is actually the sweet rewards on detaching. The rose colored glasses come off and we can see our spouse for who they truly are in this present time. And interestingly enough - it comes with a sense of peace about it where you can still love your spouse... but not like them at the moment. You no longer get mad about the rollercoaster ride. You just don't buy the ticket.
Originally Posted by MrP
For those who may not have time to go back and re-read my history, we faced several, common marital issues. This is my 2nd time DBing. Over the last 4-5 years, I've busted my tail to be responsive to fixing things I was doing that contributed to half of what got us to near D the first time around. Our former MC and my ongoing IC validated my efforts. I'd been feeling an increasing sense of closure as each day passed and though there are months left to go in the D process.
W hasn't reciprocated and that is a large part of why I'm skeptical about her ability to make and maintain positive changes. Still, in the spirit of MWD's writings, I tend to be anti-divorce unless there several things are present (physical or mental abuse, drugs/alcohol, specific mental health challenges, etc.). So, I'm assessing if W's mental health challenge is likely to continue to sabotage the chance for progress. I've not completely fallen out of love, and also believe D13 is one of many good reasons to try to repair things if that is genuinely possible. I don't want to lose my personal "hard-won gains" as we say and refuse to go back to much of what our old marriage looked like. I do feel like a prize at this point for the right partner.
I would continue being skeptical. Past actions dictate future ones... until they don't. You won't have to guess if your w wants to reconcile. It will be abundantly clear to YOU.
Until then keep on keeping on.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
It is interesting because overnight I've been thinking more about how unattractive the behaviors that W had been engaging in have become to me. I realized my feelings of attraction to W had significantly dipped after the last few months.
I've often read here and elsewhere that when you're in a relationship that is some form of codependent or otherwise not healthy, and then you do the work to change yourself and leave behind your contribution to that dynamic, you find yourself in this position. No surprise to see you writing this after all you've done, and how patient you've been.
Thanks Valeska and Maturin. V, I did as you said and waited for W to send along potential therapists. I sent her my short list several days later. I'll leave it to her to initiate a follow-up conversation.
M that sounds spot on. I went out with a male friend from high school who relocated home. W made a few remarks about our going out on a weeknight. It was a wine-tasting and mingling event and W commented on the "mingling" part. I was looking forward to the food, wine, and company of an old friend. W's comments weren't questions so I opted not to respond. The wine selections were "meh" but it was great to catch up. I'm looking forward to having my friend back in the area and expect we'll get together at least once a month.
Otherwise, I'm doing some interior home repair work since temps are a bit too cold to get rolling outside. Also, with trying to make healthier meals, I'm putting some extra effort into planning out meals for the week. COVID left me with some ongoing challenges related to fatigue that I'm determined to beat with exercise, nutrition, and quality rest. Back to that grind for today!
Hi all! I hope you're doing well. I've been swamped at work and have not had a ton of time to check in here.
In addition to work, I'm doing several things to GAL. I thoroughly cleaned out the garage which had accumulated a tone of empty boxes, old area rugs, and all the things that can pile up in a garage. I'm also trying to clean up my paper and digital files to reduce some complexity in life. Plus, since it is something you can visibly see quick results from, it is a good way to build some initiative up to tackle bigger issues. I've also started to make more time to read books I've accumulated over the years. Lastly, I've been getting out with family and friends regularly with another outing with college friends coming up this Friday.
W sent me her list of potential counselors. I sent mine back. W was a bit put off that insurance doesn't cover marital counseling. I've just let this topic sit in limbo since W initiated the discussion.
We discussed updating our family budget for the remaining time we had together. I shared with W that several new expenses, combined with record levels of inflation, led to significant increases in our expenses last year. W got angry that I wouldn't just cover these overages because I make more than double what she makes. I reiterated that we agreed to split expenses in proportion of our salaries to overall income and are supposed to maintain the status quo until the D is resolved. This practice has been status quo.
W said she'd have to talk with her L about this (likely meaning L will tell her to seek more in our financial settlement). I stated that it is W's right to talk with her attorney and that I can't force her to add anything to our family account. I further stated that I wanted to be transparent about our expenses and, to me, it is unfair for me to solely absorb an increase in our shared expenses. I ended the conversation by saying that I was going to increase my contributions to our family account, consistent with what we'd long ago agreed on and what has been our long-standing practice.
Phew. This conversation led me to start thinking about getting back to working on my boundaries for common relationships (at work, family, friends, in relationships), etc. and I'm genuinely looking forward to tackling some self-improvement work in that space. I know it will be beneficial and can become a valuable skill to teach D13 earlier in life since it isn't something you'll find in most schools' curricula.
Have a good week everyone. I hope to be more active out here in catching up on your situations and offering some feedback.
A big well done to the declutterring. It is amazing how much stuff one accumulates over the years.
Originally Posted by MrP
W sent me her list of potential counselors. I sent mine back. W was a bit put off that insurance doesn't cover marital counseling. I've just let this topic sit in limbo since W initiated the discussion.
Perfect. Continue to let her lead this. She initiated the counsellor idea/topic. When someone does the heavy lifting of finding, arranging, etc, they might actually put forth effort and take it seriously. It’s a better chance than if you did the effort. Kind of making her work for it, without placing boulders in the path. Also, don’t be afraid to veto a proposed counsellor if you are not comfortable with them.
Originally Posted by MrP
I reiterated that we agreed to split expenses in proportion of our salaries to overall income and are supposed to maintain the status quo until the D is resolved.
Good. You didn’t get dragged into her baiting.
Ah, accountability and responsibility. They really don’t like that.
Holding her accountable to the agreed upon terms is perfectly fine. And it is a good thing for her to feel the sting from her choices.
Originally Posted by MrP
Phew. This conversation led me to start thinking about getting back to working on my boundaries for common relationships (at work, family, friends, in relationships), etc. and I'm genuinely looking forward to tackling some self-improvement work in that space. I know it will be beneficial and can become a valuable skill to teach D13 earlier in life since it isn't something you'll find in most schools' curricula.
Boundaries, self worth, resilience, self reliance, self respect, are excellent tenets to instil in your daughter (and of course yourself).
My youngest son works many hours on his university and research and he sees how precious the few hours for friends and family are. We were talking about XW/Mom’s latest round of frantic texting and then her lashing out at him. He relayed his philosophy and how he deals with her and other problem people.
“I know what my time is worth, and if someone starts to waste it - we’re done, they can go.”
I hope your week is good as well. My week is starting as the tail end of a blizzard blows itself out. Once the 80 km/hr wind die down, I’ll have to remove the two foot high snow drifts that are blocking the lane, sideways, deck, dog pen, etc. And to think, yesterday my yard was bare grass. Still, it’s a great day over here.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks D and R2C. Interesting twist on the counselor front. W now believes it may be best for her to resume individual counseling and for me to attend some of those sessions if I'm willing. I'm supportive of this because the last MC we saw told me in a private session that until W deals with some past trauma issues, it would be difficult for our marriage to make progress. As DNJ suggests, I continue to let W shoulder this work.
Also, W sent me a message letting me know that she adjusted her contributions to our family account after all. I'd updated mine two days earlier and didn't let her know because, to me, it was the right thing to do and consistent with our past practice. Perhaps W's L told her she could just recoup it in any D settlement if we get through that process. The sun will rise tomorrow either way so that's all the thought I'm going to give that topic.
DNJ, the garage is an organized masterpiece. A good hard snow like you described can still be as much of a beautiful thing to see as a burden to shovel! We went from being covered in snow to nothing but our bare grass again. I probably need to drop the first round of fertilizer this weekend. Darn global warming! And, DNJ, I love your son's approach. There is an internet meme that talks about being surprised people can cut others out of their life so easily and the caption says "Me" under a picture of a man holding an exceptionally large and long knife. I've had to similarly cut toxic family and friends out of our lives and agree, they are free to go.
R2C, we just did this exact thing with mediator choices. I'm hopeful will settle on our own before having to pay Ls and a mediator to sit there for hours at their respective hourly rates. But, fate will unwind as it must and I'll do the best I can with what I can control. This is the way, after all!
Hi all. Just here to note a few interesting developments. First, W has punted back to me to pick either a new marital counselor or an individual counselor for her. I've yet to respond. Seems like I should respectfully reply that these tasks seem best left to her.
Also, my bday is approaching and it is a "milestone". W continues to ask me what I want to do. I've deflected the initial two requests. Today, W asked if I wanted even wanted her to attend. I said, "I leave that to her to decide". This was a bit more of a reflexive or reactive response because I've got many people asking me what I want to do (and I'm not a "Hey let's all celebrate me and give me attention" kind of person).
I had been thinking about telling W that I'd rather she not attend. I want to be surrounded by people who love me, care for me, and truly want to celebrate with me. A pending D doesn't, to me, align with my desired bday experience. I want pictures and memories to be positive ones. Perhaps I need to revisit this conversation with W and indicate that, after further thought, I think it best that my family and immediate friends only attend.
As always, I appreciate your thoughts. Have a great night. P
Sounds like you are being passive aggressive and trying to punish her. Why not include her and show her what she’ll be missing? These are things you should be doing while trying to reconcile with an unenthusiastic WAW.
50 years is quite a milestone! I hope you have a wonderful celebration.
Originally Posted by MrP
my bday is approaching and it is a "milestone". W continues to ask me what I want to do. I've deflected the initial two requests. Today, W asked if I wanted even wanted her to attend.
It likely wouldn’t hurt your situation to speak with her about your upcoming birthday and the day’s itinerary. Yes, deflect conversations so not to get embroiled in an argument or some such. However, that deflecting is more to buy yourself time to get emotionally settled and organized and therefore to better speak rationally. It’s not to deflect indefinitely. Direct question, give her direct answer.
“Oh I plan to hang out with family (specify by name Mom, Dad, kids, etc) and friends (names again). Nothing carved in stone yet. Maybe we’ll go bowling. Would you be interested in joining in?”
Time and space. No pressure. And invite them to some family events with no expectation of their attendance or not.
Can you handle such a day? Having W attend? I suspect you can. So respond, and invite her, and let her do the heavy lifting by agreeing or not agreeing to attend.
It’s subtle, you don’t decide for her. Which is what she trying to get you to do. Let her own her choice.
You will enjoy your birthday either way. You are healed pretty well methinks. If you were not, I’d suggest differently.
Originally Posted by MrP
W has punted back to me to pick either a new marital counselor or an individual counselor for her. I've yet to respond. Seems like I should respectfully reply that these tasks seem best left to her.
I think this is another conversation to be had. Validate her apparent hesitancy to choose or find counsellors. And “kindly” hold her accountable.
You’ve mentioned, and it seems like, W’s confidence in her path is wavering. Those whispers of doubt speaking in her ear.
A big thing, they test the LBS to see if they can be, could be, accepted and forgiven. This is also them seeing if they themselves can forgive themself. Hence, the apparent hesitancy or fence sitting or delaying by her. Other feelings are stirring within her.
W’s interest in your birthday, her pushing the D and its process more onto you, seem to be a “test” of sorts. It’s different than a baiting emotional temp check. Remember, look to her actions, not so much her words. Remain kind and cordial, focusing on you and kids, moving forward, and allowing her to catch up. That last one takes some purposeful effort - allowing her to catch up. Not placing boulders in her path, and not paving it either.
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks, Boat. You hit the nail on the head in terms of what I worry about doing and don't intend to do. I'm trying to balance detachment and upholding boundaries for my well-being with the core ideas behind DBing related to exploring a potential shift towards R, piecing, etc. if this truly has the potential to move in that direction.
Likewise, thanks DnJ. I did just as you suggested and let W decide and she chose to join us. I agree that this feels different than a temperature check. As a reminder, W has social anxiety issues and accompanying issues can include avoidance, difficulty making decisions, and more challenges. We also are slated for mediation soon and our Ls have suggested that our next court date in early summer could be an official D date if we have a settlement together by then. So, I wonder what counseling/therapy can achieve in this short timeframe. I feel some concern that revisiting W's marital concerns could make the situation worse in terms of firing W up as we head into trying to settle.
When we went through this ~5 years ago, our counselor at the time told me several things at my last visit:
1) W indicated that I'd become the "perfect husband" 2) Our marriage would struggle to move forward until W dealt with past trauma 3) Most women that come into her (the counselor's office) "would kill to have a partner like you (me)".
I'm still a work in progress and am far from perfect. It's hard not to wonder if both D13 and I may be better off if the D moves forward given the lack of substantial effort on W's part. I appreciate that she *may* be doing the best she can. I just feel some mental exhaustion trying to juggle both the near-term, impending potential of a D with putting more effort back into what may become an initial repair attempt.
Phew. Feels good to just type that out. In any event, I do plan to validate her feelings and to try to gently maintain accountability for selecting a new therapist.
Again, much appreciated Boat and D, as well as those just reading along. I hope you get some benefit from my sharing my situation.
I have been following your story and am grateful for your insights. It looks like you have done wonders in turning your life around.
Keep it up and keep posting. It is helpful to me as well to push myself when I have a down day. Not lose hope, keep up patience and consistency in my actions.
Any thoughts you have on my situation on occasion would be appreciated. You are much further along and have faced a number of the things that are still in the fog of uncertainty for me.
Happy Friday, all. Things are pretty much moving along slow and easy. Talked with a potential therapist today who does both couples counseling and discernment counseling. Told her that I'm open to either and that it seems it might be best to start with discernment to figure out if couples is even worth it for me. This therapist is talking with W next week.
W picked another therapist and we'll do a preview session with that late next week or early the following week.
My L asked if she should follow up with W's L on some items missing from the docs they submitted, not wanting to rock the boat related to counseling. I told L to do her thing: the D should follow its path and the counseling/therapy its own.
Otherwise, I'm enjoying the college basketball tournament, helping a friend move, picking up some new clothes, and some home improvement projects. I forgot how much I missed just focusing on things like this - living in the moment as they say. I also ran across a quote that I thought was quite timely and possibly helpful for others in the group:
Sometimes the greatest act of letting go is letting the person learn their own lessons. Allowing someone to sit in their struggles and suffering without saving the day is what will not only teach them lessons, it will leave them with an understanding of how to apply them.
I hope you find it as useful of a reminder as it's been for me. Cheers!
Good luck in the process Mr P. Having spent so much time in your predicament just remember that it takes a lot of strength and fortitude to fight through it and show a positive path for your daughter . She will be grateful in the later years and will give you an overwhelming sense of satisfaction that despite everything you still managed to create guidance and a kind heart to her.
Thanks, Catman19. My daughter and I have a good relationship. She confides in me, we talk openly, and I try to be her biggest fan (while still being a parent vs. trying to be a "friend" or "cool dad"). I speak positively to her about W, actively listen to what D13 has to say, and reassure her that irrespective of what happens, she and I will be OK. I regularly check-in with her. W and I put D13 front and center in decisions where that is appropriate. Lots of family also offer D13 regular support and love. I appreciate the reminder to keep doing all these things and more!
Good morning, great people in this DB forum. I hope you're doing as well as possible. Work has been crazy so between that and juggling prep for both marital counseling and D mediation, I've not made time to check in or post.
Things are going well. I've kept up GALing, working out, and balancing detachment with positively approaching our upcoming resumption of counseling. D13 is handling things well, regularly checking in with me about the situation (since W is less forthcoming). D13 has a good therapist, caring grandparents, and supportive friends.
Some leadership changes at work are also boding well for me in terms of opportunities to step up which would be great timing. I continue to feel quite at peace about the potential outcomes of my current DB effort.
Hope to post more this weekend. Hang in there to those of you at an earlier point in the process or struggling to find some hope. You have to do what is in your control to try and boost your happiness.
Last edited by DnJ; 04/05/2402:36 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Thanks, D. The timing would be good for a positive career change. I feel a bit taken for granted at work (and, admittedly, as I contemplate mediation, in this marriage too LOL).
Counseling starts next week so I'm interested to see what value can come from that.
The weekend was great. With all the sporting events taking place right now, I'm in heaven. A close friend and I got together three times last week - the most we've probably seen each other in a single week in years.
Workouts seem to be paying off too. A belt size slimmer. Muscles are starting to remember a time when we could work out more often.
Home repairs/improvements continue. Can't hurt me either way and keeps me busy. Plus, the satisfaction of a job well done is not to be underestimated.
Had our counseling appointment yesterday. Overall, it felt like a productive discussion.
W brought up a good deal of her historical concerns (not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair, and a smattering of other issues) and now with MLC and menopause not being interested in sex.
The counselor asked why come to counseling at this point with D looming. W said it was because I didn't to divorce. When the counselor turned to me, I clarified that 1) W asked me a month ago about trying counseling again and 2) I've come to accept that we may reconcile or D and am OK with either outcome. If we can reconcile, I'm on board with trying. Further, if the only reason W wants counseling is because she feels I don't want to D, we probably shouldn't be doing counseling.
W struggled to tell the counselor what she meant by not feeling like I put W first. The only example shared involved my mother and a struggle between them around how we celebrate Mother's day. For years, we tried having my mom, MIL, SIL and, W celebrate together. W felt like she never got to be "The Mom". I'd asked what that would look like and W really couldn't say. I offered suggestions like "Do you want to go away for the weekend? Should we just tell everyone we're doing our own thing?" and even said "I'm going to do X" to which she historically responded "Well, I want to see why my mom (MIL to MrP) wants to do first...." So I told the counselor I feel stuck in a bit of a loop.
Regarding money, I make double what W does. Before we got married, we agreed to split our budget in proportion to our income. I cover 70-80% of our expenses; W the rest. As time passed, W felt like this was unfair (because I still have a surplus from not being a spender). I've offered to revisit our budget or pool money (as of 6-7 years ago). I've tried to set up time for us to work through it. W doesn't like talking about money, has social anxiety, and just avoids the discussion. Hard to solve something when one party just wants to complain and not do the work. W somewhat acknowledged the mixed messaging here.
We covered some additional ground about what we want to get out of counseling. I said W is really driving the show because we've got mediation in a month and the court was pushing for the D to be done in about 2 months. W wants to go back for more counseling and is talking with her L today about options to delay/postpone the D.
Another point of recap...the first time W filed for D in 2018/19, I put in a ton of DB work to the point that W told our counselor at the time that I'd "become the perfect husband". Before that, I'd describe our issues as common solvable ones described by John Gottman in his well-researched books. W has high social anxiety issues, like is an avoidant attachment style, and a confessed perfectionist. I'm not perfect, but admittedly I've increasingly felt like these issues and some past trauma/abuse that W suffered are at the core of our relationship at this point. A prior MC went so far as to tell me that our marraige won't move forward until W deals with this past trauma.
I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation. Thoughts appreciated. Right now, I'm still a believer in MWDs philosophies about D not being a real solution. Just a bit tired of the amount of mental effort (and impact of physical wellness) with this counseling, mediation, and possible D all coming to a head right now. Phew. Time to stop. Thanks for listening. Be well, all.
I kind of get the feel for the shape of it, but ... it may help to define: What parts felt productive, to what end?
Originally Posted by MrP
not feeling like I put her first, issues w/ my mother, not feeling like our money situation is fair
These feel like WAS reoccurring themes, especially after many years and perhaps complacency that comes with it. My W pointed out that although I would do things for the family, I would more rarely do things for her alone. Times when I would deliberately exclude everyone else. It seems all Ws compete in some way with their MIL. As far as money, my W says now I was always hard to talk to about it. From my perspective I almost never said no to any request. I just made it happen though she could see the stress it caused me. I think I should have said NO much more often.
Are they really root issues? Or just things more easily talked about or easily identified? Seized on justifications to walk away?
Originally Posted by MrP
I am left wondering now if D may be a better route for me and D13. Continuously revisiting these issues, often through the lens of negative sentiment override (where one part overwrites most memories into a negative light) and three MCs later, maybe I'm seeing that W can't break free from the loop...and I'm trying to "white knight" the situation.
I considered then rejected MC because my W hasn’t ever really wanted to try since BD1. Well before I found MWD’s books and this forum, I recognized it takes two to be useful. That said, everything I read here shows that which MC you have and their approach makes a tremendous difference. I think my reference standard is MWD own thread here:
Originally Posted by Michele
Hi Everyone, Joanne has agreed to work on her marriage with a little bit of my help. I want to do this with her because a, I think it will be helpful and b, everyone reading this will understand the nuts and bolts of being solution-oriented
Hey Grok. Thanks for the comments. It was productive because the counselor did tease out of my W a few areas where W (for the first time) acknowledged her contributions to problems. For example, telling me that we together as parents should take a specific stand on a topic with our daughter and then, when our daughter pressures W, W caves in or sets me up to be the bad guy ("Ask your father...") so the "team" crumbles pretty quickly. And, just the fact that W agreed to come back for a 2nd visit and said "I like this MC" are huge steps for my W.
Definitely WASing here and some MLCing (gray hair noticing, tattoo wanting, etc.). Also, given W's social anxiety and past trauma, my sense is W just believes "life" doesn't work out her way and neither will this....and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point. I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.
You're right. The MC like any therapist can make a huge difference and is a very personal choice. Tough to have the time, money, and stamina to weed through them or restart the process if you get the wrong one. We'll see how this goes and thanks for the thread reference. I agree that is a good benchmark for what to look for in a good counselor. Be well!
and then lists these as reasons like self-fulfilling prophecies....or can't pivot to solutions vs. ruminating about issues over 7 years old at this point.
I've been -ruminating- over John Gray's Mars/Venus books interpretation of this. Paraphrased:
~When a woman is stressed she feels a need to talk about her feelings and ALL the possible problems that are associated. No priorities. Not concerned with solutions. Seeks relief by expressing herself and being understood. Through exploring her feelings she finds awareness of what is really bothering her. The more talk and exploration, the better they feel. If not feeling heard and understood, she may expand further, even to other peoples problems.
Just as a man is fulfilled through working out the intricate details of solving a problem, a woman is fulfilled through talking about the details of her problems~
Originally Posted by MrP
I've also rarely said "No" by the way....I've put the ball in W's court for things that she really wants to do (and don't always fully understand her "why" so it makes it had for me to take the lead)...and then when it doesn't get done the blame falls on me.
This year I'm wondering if this isn't a version of testing. i.e. Can you call me on my BS when I am off the rails? Are you stronger than me like I want you to be?
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H:54 W:50 D18, D17, S12 ILYBINILWY 3/2023 DB1 4/2023 DB1 rescinded 5/2023 DB2 6/2023 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-4 & W moves out 8/2023 – 2/2024 Draft settlement 3/2024
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