H EW possibly DBing and I’m losing the battle

[Valeska19]

I’m am going to answer your questions. I really had to think about them and what you’ve written. I never thought I was manipulative but I’ve been thinking things over a lot and I realise a lot of my communication has been nagging (even thought I talk lowly, it’s still nagging), reacting and probably thinking I’m setting boundaries but actually doing so to punish. Without meaning to. I just haven’t really got the hang of looking after myself and putting my needs first and being nice about it. Like you all say here—that seems counter-intuitive. Oh this is making me squirm but I’m set on cleaning up my side.

For someone who has never set them - setting boundaries is going to feel like punishment. And it will mostly likely come with guilt. Some of that guilt will because of your H's reaction. He seems like a man child and I suspect will only up his manipulation. The more he tries... the more calm you become. Become the zen queen.

I don’t turn off my phone as it’s my main source of communication between my elderly parents and me. I have not had the guts to block texts actually because of the reaction I think I MAY get. I’m being really honest here and it’s uncomfortable to recognise this, and I suppose it’s been such a habit to put his needs first—growing up in a Patriarchal family situation. I tend to lose myself in worshipping a man when I’ve fallen. Mimicking a trait that I see in my mother. It doesn’t get her anywhere neither.

I applaud your honesty. That's hard work to look at why you behave the way you do. Even if it doesn't serve you now - there is a comfort-ability in your current situation. It's all you know - even if you hate it.

So what's the happy medium here. Both of my folks have had health issues in the past year. I have a setting on my phone that allows their calls to go through whilst blocking others whilst I sleep. Also - if you block H's number temporarily whilst he is raging... you will NEVER see what he texts or calls about in that rage. That would be a very good way to take care of your mental health when he throws a tantrum.

Oh boy, I’m trying though. I must admit I’m slightly enjoying the shift in dynamic as I’m setting my new boundaries, even though they are supposed to be for me. I feel 1/1000th of what I used to be like in the beginning of our courtship when I had some sass.

Good. Thats the point of boundaries. To know where YOU stop and your H begins.

I needed to talk to H about financial matters and I was desperate to call him because it was pressing; but I didn’t. It was a concern of H’s; not mine and I decided to let him call me (I worked out that I need not be more concerned about his life than he is) and then I would bring up what I had to say. H eventually tried to bait me into an argument and I kept my cool. He then asked me 3 times if I wanted a divorce and I said no. He asked me if I was having an affair. He asked me if I had met someone. I reassured him—I told him no to all and that I was committed to our marriage. H told me he can’t work me out and I told him that I’m just needing and wanting some time to myself and rest after a huge couple of weeks. I told him I had to get off the phone. H got angry because I wanted to go. I stood firm and insisted that I had to go and I got off the phone regardless of how he felt. H then sent me texts telling me how much he loves me and how he can’t imagine being with anyone else etc. He told me he misses me etc..

I'm happy you were able to stand your ground a little bit. It's very difficult when he pushes and acts like a baby. A couple of notes:

1. No more reaassuring him. He has fired you as his W so he needs to learn to regulate his emotions. Also it would be a good 180 for you.

2. Get off his rollercoaster. Find a way to end the conversation. If the call was about finances - keep the topic there. For example:

H. I miss you.
KB. I understand. Let's continue to discuss financial situation.
H. But you are being a jerk!
KB. I understand you are frustrated. We still need to work out financial situation.
H. But I don't want to... I want to deflect with blame or love bombing.
KB. When you are ready to talk about financial situation - let me know. (Hangs up phone).

Do not engage until he agrees.

Okay, so now where to go from here? How do I keep the DBing and all that it entails and keep my communication going with H and keep the momentum going, even though he is STILL cake eating?

IMO - you need to keep your boundaries firm and even increase them. If it's not emergency - stop engaging with him. He's on a ride to figure all his Sh!t out and you don't need to buy the ticket.

Plus from what you are telling me - it's gonna be challenging to chose yourself when you were raised differently....

... so practice, practice, practice on choosing YOU.

[KangaB]

Preview
Before I get back to Valeska,

I have an update and I need some further help. Yesterday, I came across a function on my Phone Carrier app and found the Call usage from H’s phone. It has verified his EA with EW. There have been calls nearly everyday since before I started DBing and rang XW to talk to her. Some of these calls have been late at night and go for over an hour and certainly when I’m not there. H is still telling me he doesn’t talk to hardly anyone (even though I don’t bring it up) and he hasn’t mentioned XW at all. Since I have been DBing, the calls have lessened. There are still lots and the calls that I’m seeing are only the calls H is making to XW, not any from her. I have now ordered itemised calls for the last 12 months from our Phone carrier so I can collect evidence and verify what I’ve been suspecting for a long time to get some closure.

What do I do now with all this evidence? What now? Do I expose all of this?

I tried so hard last night to back away quietly while still being myself but H knew something was wrong and kept asking. He accused me of having an affair. He left today picking a fight and swearing at me because I didn’t want to be intimate and because I had shut down somewhat last night. I didn’t argue back and just let him go back to his place.

I’m relieved but devastated. I just knew it. I knew all of it and it’s great to finally know. I’m extremely sad. That part has finally come to an end, I don’t have to wonder anymore.

I’m sad because H has continued to lie to me since probably we were married, gaslighted me, picked fights and has XW that he is confiding in and supporting emotionally. WTF… not coping very well at the moment.

Kanga

[KangaB]

Hi Valeska thank you for taking the time to write. I’m looking into how to have my parents number available and block all others.

I’m continuing with the boundaries and I have been tested. As you can see from my above post, things have taken a turn again.

The hardest thing is doing this when H is asking for reassurance. So I found out after my boundary setting from last week. H had phoned XW and had a chat to her and then rang me and told me that he was thinking of going OS with XW and the kids back to her country for a visit to get a rise out of me. When I didn’t take the bait, he admitted he was trying to get a rise up of me. He then told me he needed reassurance that I loved him and that I wanted to be in the marriage. What the hell? I’m so confused by all of this.

So appreciative of the feedback.

Very lost today.

Kanga

[KangaB]

After a night’s sleep, I’ve decided that I’m going to do nothing with the evidence. I realise that saying something to H will push him further away. I will continue with my DBing and wait it out. I’m confident in seeing that the phone calls have lessened, and lessened in duration that maybe the DBing is working because I haven’t nagged H about XW for a weeks and weeks now. The contact between him and her has been without any of my meddling. What is happening between them is of their own accord. I still feel betrayed and today, I can’t stop tearing up.

H is still accusing me of having an affair by sending ridiculous texts. I’m confident that H is projecting and the guilt is getting to him. He will never admit to anything if I push for it. H will tell me in his own time when he is back in the marriage.

Yesterday, I wanted to expose him and his lies but I kept reading the posts here, looking for the posts that apply the DB principles of not exposing affairs. I came to my senses as what good is it going to do with someone like H, who has suffered from guilt and shame and low self esteem most of his life and finds it difficult to be honest with himself.

At the moment, I’m keeping my distance from H and when I do need to communicate, I validate him (as much as he is ranting—he just wants to he heard and feel right). I made an effort this morning to let H know that I’m not going to fight with him anymore, I’m not going to try and change him in any way and I’m not going to leave him and that I love him. I will now get on with my day and continue to stay dark, set boundaries and try to have the best day to look after me.

Kanga

[Cadet]

After a night’s sleep, I’ve decided that I’m going to do nothing with the evidence. I realise that saying something to H will push him further away. I will continue with my DBing and wait it out. I’m confident in seeing that the phone calls have lessened, and lessened in duration that maybe the DBing is working because I haven’t nagged H about XW for a weeks and weeks now. The contact between him and her has been without any of my meddling. What is happening between them is of their own accord. I still feel betrayed and today, I can’t stop tearing up.

Yes - what would you want to accomplish with exposure?

Knowledge is Power, you have it now dont give up your power by giving away your knowledge.

As usual this is not something that will resolve quickly- it is a marathon not a sprint

[KangaB]

Cadet! Thank you… Yes I have the knowledge and without revealing it, it is power and I’m starting to use it more.

And this is how it’s working. So, it’s been a week since I posted and H had a dream last weekend that he was having an affair and how he felt terrible about it. Interestingly, I had found out in the dream and confronted him and he was devastated. When he told me about the dream, I asked him would he tell me if he did and he said yes!! It seems H is coming of denial!

Since Ive found the evidence, I have handed it over to my Higher Power and prayed about it. I’ve decided to be my usual, loving self around H, at the same time getting the hang of setting boundaries. When I know that H and XW have been in touch, I lay very low the next day. I make myself as unreachable as I possibly can.

Not only has H shared his affair dream with me, he also brought me flowers on the weekend. They were beautiful. I’m sure he did this for several reasons, guilt being one of them. I don’t care the reason why, it’s wonderful to have them because he used to bring me flowers a lot and doesn’t do it much anymore except when he has been mean and wants to make some sort of amends. H was very affectionate and helpful. He did some maintenance jobs around the house and farm. For over a year, he hasn’t really done a lot of that neither, he would usually pick a fight and want to leave. H didn’t do that. He stayed until it was time to go. H also did the same the weekend before.

This week he has kept up the Affair contact with XW and it hurts a lot. It’s not as bad as it was. Another thing that happened is that he rang me and cried because he is not happy in life. I have not heard him cry like he did for such a long time. It was great he was coming to me to share his pain. H got off the phone quickly when he revealed his pain, but even still, I took this as a positive. Interestingly, he rang XW not long after. I really believe the pain he feeling is because he is lying to me and he feels terrible.

As much as all of this hurts, like Cadet said, I have power now and I’m using it. I’m showing more interest in H which is a 180 for me, yet at times, doing my own thing in his company which is another 180. I don’t mention XW ever (another 180) and I’m praising and thanking H for all the good things he does and I’m vigilant about it (another 180). During the week when we are not together and especially when I know he has been talking to XW, I don’t answer his calls for the majority of the day and have great excuses as to why. H was supposed to call me late last which is a usual time, but he rang late. I didn’t answer and I text him to say goodnight and sleep well. I’m confident he was talking to XW as he rang her a few times yesterday. It hurts sooooo much.

Overall, this week I’ve been able to focus on my work more and sleep better. I’m letting go of the worry and the ‘what if’s’ and getting on with it as best I can.

To be frank, I have spent hours on the internet looking for ways on how to end affairs and a lot of what is being said is to confront your partner and sometimes the AP. I have done this so much in my M that it just brought them closer together. I cannot stress enough that the DB approach is effective, and really patience is the key. I accept and pray for all that is happening instead of reacting which is so hard to do. I have always lacked patience and am impulsive by nature.

Kanga

[MrP]

You are 100% correct about patience. It can be tough to want something to happen and to have to wait for it....whatever it is: the big D, reconcilication, or continued piecing back together of a relationship. Keep up the good work until that new found competence with patience creates more new habits around how you look at and experiencing things. For me, developing the level of patience I now have thanks to starting DBing 4-5 years ago feels so rewarding. It also helped to pick up a copy of MWD's Change Your Life and Everyone In it and actively work to practice the ideas in that book (still centered around how you can only control changes you make to yourself and THAT can lead others to change in response to the new/different you (much like you seem to be doing)! All the best, MrP.

[Valeska19]

Cadet! Thank you… Yes I have the knowledge and without revealing it, it is power and I’m starting to use it more.

And this is how it’s working. So, it’s been a week since I posted and H had a dream last weekend that he was having an affair and how he felt terrible about it. Interestingly, I had found out in the dream and confronted him and he was devastated. When he told me about the dream, I asked him would he tell me if he did and he said yes!! It seems H is coming of denial!

How is H coming out of it? It seems like he is willing to lie straight to your face... or am I missing something here.

Since Ive found the evidence, I have handed it over to my Higher Power and prayed about it. I’ve decided to be my usual, loving self around H, at the same time getting the hang of setting boundaries. When I know that H and XW have been in touch, I lay very low the next day. I make myself as unreachable as I possibly can.

I can see how this is a boundary as in it protects you and provides a little safe care.... but wouldn't the boundary be more of. "H.. if you decide to talk with XW... I am going to need to distance myself"

Not only has H shared his affair dream with me, he also brought me flowers on the weekend. They were beautiful. I’m sure he did this for several reasons, guilt being one of them. I don’t care the reason why, it’s wonderful to have them because he used to bring me flowers a lot and doesn’t do it much anymore except when he has been mean and wants to make some sort of amends. H was very affectionate and helpful. He did some maintenance jobs around the house and farm. For over a year, he hasn’t really done a lot of that neither, he would usually pick a fight and want to leave. H didn’t do that. He stayed until it was time to go. H also did the same the weekend before.

This week he has kept up the Affair contact with XW and it hurts a lot. It’s not as bad as it was. Another thing that happened is that he rang me and cried because he is not happy in life. I have not heard him cry like he did for such a long time. It was great he was coming to me to share his pain. H got off the phone quickly when he revealed his pain, but even still, I took this as a positive. Interestingly, he rang XW not long after. I really believe the pain he feeling is because he is lying to me and he feels terrible.

This feels like a little bit like cake eating to me.

As much as all of this hurts, like Cadet said, I have power now and I’m using it. I’m showing more interest in H which is a 180 for me, yet at times, doing my own thing in his company which is another 180. I don’t mention XW ever (another 180) and I’m praising and thanking H for all the good things he does and I’m vigilant about it (another 180). During the week when we are not together and especially when I know he has been talking to XW, I don’t answer his calls for the majority of the day and have great excuses as to why. H was supposed to call me late last which is a usual time, but he rang late. I didn’t answer and I text him to say goodnight and sleep well. I’m confident he was talking to XW as he rang her a few times yesterday. It hurts sooooo much.

Did I miss it somewhere that you were an avoidant wife? I feel like thee 180 is becoming less available so this feels a little contradictory.

To be frank, I have spent hours on the internet looking for ways on how to end affairs and a lot of what is being said is to confront your partner and sometimes the AP. I have done this so much in my M that it just brought them closer together. I cannot stress enough that the DB approach is effective, and really patience is the key. I accept and pray for all that is happening instead of reacting which is so hard to do. I have always lacked patience and am impulsive by nature.

This is 100% a normal reaction to research the h3ll out of something.

The contact between the two of them clearly hurts you... What is in your control that can help minimize the pain fro you?

[KangaB]

MrP

Thank you for your encouragement and giving me the recommendation of the book.

OMG—Patience! I’ve never had to have so much patience before and it was sorely tested this week. Yesterday was a terrible day, but upon reflection today, I realise my part in what has evolved over the week. H and I had a wonderful weekend last weekend. We had to go to a Family event on my side and H was extremely attentive and supportive. More so, than he has ever been in front of my family. H went back to his place early on in the week.He picked a fight over the phone and I immediately got off the phone without reacting and ignored a spray of hostile texts. I knew what was coming. H wants to be in contact with XW. Thanks to having access to phone records, I have been able to verify that this is exactly why he picks fights. Picking fights, contacting XW correlate. A scientific mind knows that correlation does not mean causation. I get that! But, this is how it is and now that I know, I can avoid.

So… I ignored H the next day and went on with my day. I responded to a ‘goodnight x’ text for. H with the same and picked up his call the next morning. We talked on and off on the phone during the day. H ended up picking another fight. The next morning, I checked on his call usage and there is was—a late night, hour long conversation with XW and other calls to her the next day and the day after that. I didn’t react to H. I wanted to expose what I knew with him because I was so angry and hurt with him. Why? Why does he need to be in touch with her to that extent and why are we having such a great time and he still wants something from her? What the hell are they talking about late at night? This is so hurtful!!!!

I’m not kidding, I have been devastated. I have been ruminating and obsessing. I have cried and cried—a deep, deep sadness. I was supposed to be at his place and I chose not to go. I just realised I can’t be in his presence anymore when I don’t have the confidence. It is not the time for me to be vulnerable in front of H. I so badly wanted to call my SIL and expose them both. I wanted to tell my family too. But… But I didn’t. I have held off until my feelings passed and I grieved a little bit more.

What I have come to realise is that, I have been given the evidence as a ‘gift’ to consolidate that I was not going mad and H and XW are involved in a EA possibly more than that. Now that I know, checking on his calls to her does not serve any purpose other than to destroy my confidence and peace of mind. I keep asking the question now… Do my actions serve my goals of bringing me closer to having a better marriage and life? Checking on his calls does not. Nor does exposing his lying and deceit. My Primary goal right now is to attract H back to me and my marriage and building my confidence and my life so I can live a fulfilling life that helps both of us. Everything else I’m doing is working. His contact with XW has halved since I have been DBing and doing my 180’s. We don’t fight as much anymore. XW is not trying to be in his presence during the time we are together which used to happen nearly every weekend since we got married. H is more affectionate and present in our M when we are together, there is progress and I have to keep my eye on the prize. It was patience and not reacting that got me through yesterday. I look for Intuitive thought and I pray when I don’t know what else to do. Which leads me to now replying to Valeska.

Kanga

[KangaB]

Hi Valeska,

Thank you so much for replying and giving me food for thought.

First, the dream that H had about the affair and him lying to me and asking me how does this mean H is coming out of denial? H has been lying to me for a very long time. He was also abusive and would pick fights and he still picks fights so he can deflect the feelings of guilt and shame. Him dreaming of him having an affair and feeling awful about it, is his subconscious catching up with him. It’s a win because, right back in H’s brain, he knows what he is doing is wrong. Yay!! It’s a step and DBing for me is about patience and being given time. Eventually, his feelings in the dream will become a reality.

Since Ive found the evidence, I have handed it over to my Higher Power and prayed about it. I’ve decided to be my usual, loving self around H, at the same time getting the hang of setting boundaries. When I know that H and XW have been in touch, I lay very low the next day. I make myself as unreachable as I possibly can.

I can see how this is a boundary as in it protects you and provides a little safe care.... but wouldn't the boundary be more of. "H.. if you decide to talk with XW... I am going to need to distance myself”

Okay… so I understand that I can set this sort of boundary if H knows that I know that he is talking to XW. But, he doesn’t know that I know and the fact that he doesn’t know is my power. In fact, I used to try this on him, which only felt like punishment for him and it just brought him closer to XW and distanced him from me. My goal is to attract him back by being the person I used to be before my confidence was completely obliterated by this affair.

Not only has H shared his affair dream with me, he also brought me flowers on the weekend. They were beautiful. I’m sure he did this for several reasons, guilt being one of them. I don’t care the reason why, it’s wonderful to have them because he used to bring me flowers a lot and doesn’t do it much anymore except when he has been mean and wants to make some sort of amends. H was very affectionate and helpful. He did some maintenance jobs around the house and farm. For over a year, he hasn’t really done a lot of that neither, he would usually pick a fight and want to leave. H didn’t do that. He stayed until it was time to go. H also did the same the weekend before.

This week he has kept up the Affair contact with XW and it hurts a lot. It’s not as bad as it was. Another thing that happened is that he rang me and cried because he is not happy in life. I have not heard him cry like he did for such a long time. It was great he was coming to me to share his pain. H got off the phone quickly when he revealed his pain, but even still, I took this as a positive. Interestingly, he rang XW not long after. I really believe the pain he feeling is because he is lying to me and he feels terrible.

This feels like a little bit like cake eating to me.

Yes I agree this is Cake Eating. This is not the time for me to address Cake Eating. H has not admitted anything to me where I can set bigger boundaries. Until he does, all I can do is be the better cake to eat. I used to whinge and complain about his contact with XW. All it did was make her look like a 12 instead of a 4 that she actually is. I realised from your comments which really angered me and thank you!!! Because this is what I arrived at. Part of DBing and the 180’s is being the better tasting cake so that the WS puts down the other cake for good. No one goes back to a bad tasting anything if something tastes better. What else can you do about Cake Eating where it doesn’t push WS to keep eating their cake and perceive yours as awful. I’m changing my ingredients!!!

As much as all of this hurts, like Cadet said, I have power now and I’m using it. I’m showing more interest in H which is a 180 for me, yet at times, doing my own thing in his company which is another 180. I don’t mention XW ever (another 180) and I’m praising and thanking H for all the good things he does and I’m vigilant about it (another 180). During the week when we are not together and especially when I know he has been talking to XW, I don’t answer his calls for the majority of the day and have great excuses as to why. H was supposed to call me late last which is a usual time, but he rang late. I didn’t answer and I text him to say goodnight and sleep well. I’m confident he was talking to XW as he rang her a few times yesterday. It hurts sooooo much.

Did I miss it somewhere that you were an avoidant wife? I feel like thee 180 is becoming less available so this feels a little contradictory.

Ha, I love it… calling me an avoidant wife!! It used to be that I would rake him over the coals even if it were done nicely. Did it get me anywhere? No! It just pushed H further into the direction of XW!!! Isn’t it about creating some mystery? Isn’t it about stopping nagging (however nicely it’s done)? I was always in for a fight and standing up for my rights. It has got me nowhere. Some of it may have had an impact for a while, but, deep down I felt powerless knowing that I just cajoled him into stepping into line. I’m not doing that anymore. And yes, I am avoiding fights and abuse until I have set the tone on how better to communicate between us 2. Let it begin with me and I say that he and I only have contact when H is ready to be nice and respects me and our M. Leaving him to have contact with XW also does another thing (even though I hate him lying to me so much and for this to happen). That while H has been given free rein (essentially, I have gotten out of the way) to the ‘wonderful, new and improved XW’—not. I am improving in the background, trying to have a relaxing and enjoyable time so I can be the much better and improved me that H fell in love with in the first place. I want to go back to the confidence that I had when we were first got together and I didn’t give a toss about his contact with XW. I want the confidence again, so that I am ready to accept H’s confession when it happens and then I can set my boundaries and be the prize and he knows it once and for all!!

Love the comments… love that you gave me so much to think about and to prove that nearly everything that I am doing is bringing me closer to my goal of having a better M and a better life, even though at times it feels like I’m going backwards, it is improving. I completely submit myself to MWD’s advice and to all that follow her advice. Slowly but surely.

I’m fighting for my M, not in my M.

Kanga