Thanks in advance for making time to read this first, long post. I've long lurked on the forum and not posted but benefit tremendously from your feedback and inspiration.
4-5 years ago, my wife told me she filed for divorce. Her behavior lined up well with that of a walkaway spouse. She also has anxiety, social phobia, and (if you also read anything from Stan Tatkin) would likely be classified as being in the avoidant attachment category. Thanks to DB, a therapist, a DB coach (they were great) and a ton of hard work, we staved off divorce until the topic resurfaced this week.
My wife says she "just isn't good at relationships" and "needs to get back to being herself". Also worth noting is that 1) menopause has started 2) she's frustrated with her weight.
My mom is also an issue for my wife. They've long seen each other as competitors for my attention and love. For example, Mother's Day is a continued source of conflict for me. I've made it clear to my mom that my wife comes first. At the same time, what happens each year is that my wife waits to see what HER mother and sister want to do together, the plan is rarely finalized by Mother's Day, I'm told I can just go do something with my mom...and then later I'm still somehow wrong for following through on the offer to spend time with my mom. I've offered for several years to take my wife and our daughter away for Mother's Day and make the day exclusively about my wife. She hasn't taken me up on that offer because she seems to be trying to prioritize HER mother. Phew.
Finances have been an issue since the start of our marriage. Before we got married, we agreed to split our family expenses proportionately to our income. So, I cover 70% and she covers 30%. I make significantly more than she does so my personal account carries a hefty surplus. She's grown resentful about that surplus (I've never hid anything from her) and suggests I'd not help her if she had a financial emergency like job loss. I've told her of course I would. I've offered to revisit how we budget, and asked her to sit down with me to do so for years, and she avoids doing so for reasons that seem related to her anxiety (the stress of talking about money).
As recently as last month, she said she loves me so I feel like the recent resurfacing of divorce is a reaction to her continued anxiety (has long not gone to therapy, and takes what my therapist calls a "baby dose" of Zoloft so not enough to make much of a dent), menopause, weight/body image frustration, a major work event she plans (thanks to the social phobia, and our teen daughter who is quite busy with activities and doesn't always follow through on my wife's requests to do things like clean her room and bathroom, help with chores, etc.
We tried couples therapy. The first time, the therapist was a total dud. We both agreed she really didn't do much and just kept asking us standard therapist questions or failed to respond to our questions. The second therapist "fired" us. She told me that until my wife chose to work on herself (anxiety), couple's therapy was unlikely to be effective. Further, she told me that people with avoidance issues like my wife can be VERY difficult for therapists to get through to (because their desire to avoid taking a hard look at themselves and potentially see how strong their contributions are is so strong. Put another way, acknowledging how much they've contributed to these issues is too much for them to bear.
So...why am I here? Well, it helps to just type all this out and get it out of my head. I'm trying to follow MWD's guidance, the Gottmans, Stand Tatkin, the author of Hold Me Tight, and a great book on Loving Someone with Anxiety. Tools like Sandy's 32 rules, the boundaries checklists, etc. are super helpful. But, I'd appreciate any of YOUR feedback, suggestions, or reactions to my specific situation I'm also glad just to have a sense of community with all of you. I appreciate you and hope I can offer you all some value, motivation, and hope too.
Last edited by DnJ; 09/18/2305:11 AM. Reason: Removed counsellor’s name.
I'm sorry to read that the martial uneasiness has resurfaced again after these past few years. By the sounds of things you are versed in DB and experienced some very good results already. I will paste Cadet's welcome post below for your reference. There is plenty of useful information within those links. A really good starting point and/or place to polish one's skill set.
I am curious of your ages and length of marriage. If you wish to provide such details.
In-laws, MIL and/or FIL, can be quite a source of stress and conflict. And a couple's financial arrangement and handling is a pretty common source as well. Sounds like you have ample of both currently going on. Over the years resentments can grow and fester. Mix in the typical teenager behaviors into the household and one's coping skills will get tested.
W is likely pretty accurate that she needs to get back to herself. Unfortunately she figures a divorce is the needed path. And as you have seen, she is pushing back on conversations and advice that runs counter to that. Even counsellor number two firing you guys; she is correct until W will look inward and is willing to work on herself, couples therapy is unlikely to yield much in positive changes.
It really does help to post and get one's thoughts down on paper and out of their head. Keep moving forward, and following those DB principles and techniques. Focus upon yourself and daughter. Live and love your life.
I look forward to conversing with you. And yes, this place is a wonderful community.
DnJ
- - - -
Welcome to the board.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by Michele Weiner-Davis. The following link is the first chapter:
Once your registration to the site has been completed you can post and start a thread. Please have only one thread active at a time (per forum); it keeps your situation organized and is easier for those following along and posting to you. There are a few forums which help categorize posters’ situations.
When your thread reaches 100 posts, it will be time for you to start a new thread. It is a good idea to link your old thread to your new one, and even link the new one back to the previous one. That makes it easier for the folks following your story. (There is a help thread on linking in the sticky threads at the top section of the forum’s display.) A moderator will “close” your full thread which prevents further posting to it. It is still available to read.
Post in small frequent replies on your thread. Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity can be very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Post on other people’s thread to give support.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Hi DnJ - Thanks for making time to respond. W is 51. I am 49. 15th anniversary coming up this year. Cadet's welcome post is always helpful! How I wish I had all these resources memorized or that I was better "on-the-spot". You're spot on about rumination and festering. I've learned a great deal about forgiveness and focusing on solutions. It's been very helpful for me personally to shift my perspective. Again, I appreciate the response and look forward to contributing more broadly.
And, I found an older post that I'm copying and pasting here (looks like we're unable to "Quote" some older/archived posts) because Coach offers lots of good advice that I'm worried I won't easily be able to find again:
Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings�
Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs, not your feelings. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational, and are a poor compass. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Prisons are full of people who went with their feelings.
To be a great DBer you need to be able to think. Detach and look at the situation in 360 degrees. State your goals (which are consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.
If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.
You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.
You can make any text a quote by putting quote=(name) inside of the square brackets []. At the end of the quote, type /quote inside of the square brackets []. So:
[ quote=Coach ] (minus the spaces)
....
[ /quote ] (again, minus the spaces)
Originally Posted by Coach
Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings�
Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs, not your feelings. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational, and are a poor compass. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Prisons are full of people who went with their feelings.
To be a great DBer you need to be able to think. Detach and look at the situation in 360 degrees. State your goals (which are consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.
If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.
You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.
I love the quote, especially that first paragraph that talks about not responding based on feelings. Seems like a good principle far beyond DB
Last edited by Card29; 09/18/2303:30 AM.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
Thank you for the tips and recognition of the quote. Hard to not respond based on feelings when they're dominating my thoughts but know as Coach suggests that to care for myself I have to run everything by my values, beliefs, and brain - not just my heart
Hi all - Well, the D word hasn't resurfaced in over a week. Last Thursday, W said we should discuss our situation. I replied that I was available at her convenience and suggested 1-2 times. On Monday, W came up to talk with me in my office...and only focused on social conversation, rather than our situation. Following DB-recommended practices, I don't *think* I should initiate the discussion (my notes from my former DB coach encouraged me not to bring it up years ago when this happened). I'm trying to practice detachment, GAL, etc. too.
However, I feel concerned W will continue to avoid a discussion, get flustered, and move forward. Should I bring anything all all? A counselor suggested I check in and only say "Want to talk about anything?" Thanks in advance.
Last Thursday, W said we should discuss our situation.
This is your hint to STFU and let her say whatever she wants whenever she wants. You stop what you are doing. You give her your full attention. You do not argue. You listen intently. You show that you understand how SHE FEELS about what she is talking about. (Emotional validation). Do not show any emotions (do not react emotionally)....all you want to do is understand HER STORY...even if it does not align with your story.
Get as many of these type of statements into your new behavior with her: Sounds like you are angry....I bet that must be hard to feel that way...I can see why you would feel that way...You look sad...that must have been difficult for you
and these: "I am not sure"..."I need time to process what you have said"...."I have not thought about that"..."I will let you know when I have decided"...."I have not made a decision yet"..."Thanks for sharing"...
Making positive changes to the way you interact is you goal. Your measuring stick is not how she responds, but rather "did I interact the way I wanted to, the way DBer's say I should"
Most things that work are counter-intuitive. Things you do that is habit or subconscious obviously got you into this. They will not get you out of this. That is why you have to question all of your beliefs and behaviors.
Going through this process is the best/worst thing that ever happened to me.
Ultimately this has nothing to do with her and everything to do with you and how you decided to change.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Ready2Change, your candor is right up my alley. Thank you. I especially like the "things that you do that are habits or subconscious got you (me) into this". Again, I really appreciate the response. All the best, MrP
Oh, and I should've been clearer. W is VERY particular about when she wants to talk about anything serious. When she said "We should discuss our situation," she did not want to talk at that moment because our child was home. She meant over the weekend. She doesn't like talking in the a.m. before work (her anxiety around the upcoming day), when our child is home, or in the evening after about 7 or 8 p.m. (her anxiety building around the next day). So, I've just indicated that I agree with her and will be available, including suggesting opportunities to talk when all of her criteria for talking would be met while balancing "not sitting around waiting for your spouse" per Sandi's 37 rules.
