My Story

[Sunflyer]

So I guess if she wants to discuss terms, I tell her that I am open to discussing terms, while leaving the work up to her.

I strongly suggest that you do not have discussions. Ask her for her proposal in writing and you will review it. You can then respond in writing.

"I do not have time to discuss this right now. Send me an email and I will review your proposal...I got to go." then go do something. Stay busy. Be productive. Be on purpose.

I like this.

The ONLY possible caveat is that she, in particular, seems to have a real aversion to my discussing important things with her in writing. When she first started laying out her complaints about how things were going (about two months ago), I sent her some of my thoughts the following day.

She said, "I really wish you had discussed this with me in person."

This is a pet peeve she has. I would actually prefer for her to write something out. Just don't want to throw gasoline on the fire.

[Sunflyer]

So...last night she came to me and asked if I had given any further thought to the proceedings.

I asked her to write up her ideas so I could look at them.

She said okay.

So once she does that, the question remains whether I respond verbally (which may not be the best route) or in writing (which I would prefer but which may set off "there you go again not wanting to talk to me about important things face to face.")

[DnJ]

Good Morning SF

The written word has more a sense of permanence to it than a verbal discussion. Things written are more accurate than one’s recollection; be that intentionally or unintentionally misremembered. This also speaks to accountability; and having one’s words written, clearly spells out what you and her discussed and/or agreed to.

To that end, and in my view, it is really good to exchange proposals in written format. However, the negotiating - if she is willing to - is more efficient verbally. Basically, the first draft proposal from her is coming in writing. You review, and then talk with her about certain changes (if you have any you’d like). Speaking face to face allows you to better gauge her willingness of such negotiating, and allows you to better discover what she is truly after. You’d be surprised what folks hold dear, some forgoing custody or alimony for an upfront lump sum payment.

Of course, negotiations is when both parties can actually discuss things. There are some situations where one or both are at each other’s throats. Your situation is not that, and sounds like a verbal face to face discussion will be fruitful for fleshing out the ideas into an actual agreement.

After a wee back and forth (if necessary, depends on her proposal), the first draft is updated and sent to the other party. I’d likely ask her to update her proposal to the new and agreed upon terms. That places her accountable and allows her to feel more in control. (One’s spouse feeling in control increases their accepting of negotiation. If they feel they came up with the idea, it has a much better chance of success.) After she forwards you the next draft, review again. Repeat as necessary. She is pushing the proceedings, so let her do the heavy lifting.

Once you and her have a written, agreed to, document that covers the major stuff, speak with your lawyers. One (mostly likely her) of you would have their lawyer send a signed proposal to the other. Then the other carefully reviews - there will be things you and her didn’t likely consider or knew about that need to be addressed. Any changes would hopefully be small at this point, and there would be very little back and forth between the lawyers.

You only sign a proposal you agree with. Be it a proposal your lawyer is sending and offering for her signature, or a proposal her lawyer has sent for your signature. Once both of you (and your lawyers) have signed the proposal, the agreement is complete and binding.

Depending upon your locale the degree of “legally binding” at this point needs to be understood. My locale, this would be a separation agreement. Divorce would require a minimum one year cooldown period, before a divorce proposal could be offered by one party. Divorce does not automatically follow, one has to request it. That proposal is a similar proceeding as before. And the divorce proposal “could” have alterations to the previously agreed to separation agreement; hence the degree of binding caveat.

Once the divorce proposal is hashed out and signed by both, it is forwarded to the courts. After a judge has reviewed and signed, the agreement is then legally binding.

If a divorce is being sought and an agreement cannot be met, it can be requested to be taken to the courtroom where a ruling would be imposed. And this becomes legally binding.

Where I live, even this is not absolute. This divorce can still be re-opened. As more and more time passes, the risk/likelihood of such a request to the courts being granted becomes less and less. For example, one demanding their divorce agreement of two decades ago be redone is highly likely to be dismissed, then one of mere months ago. Also, the party that pushed/demanded for the divorce, in writing; made/offered the proposal, in writing; is unlikely to get “their” agreement re-examined/overturned. (Again, my locale. Other places are much more strict and agreements are more binding.)

Anyhow, there can be a business side of letting one’s spouse do the heavy lifting. It’s not just letting them feel what being divorce is like.

D

[Sunflyer]

Depending upon your locale the degree of “legally binding” at this point needs to be understood. My locale, this would be a separation agreement. Divorce would require a minimum one year cooldown period, before a divorce proposal could be offered by one party. Divorce does not automatically follow, one has to request it. That proposal is a similar proceeding as before. And the divorce proposal “could” have alterations to the previously agreed to separation agreement; hence the degree of binding caveat.

Once the divorce proposal is hashed out and signed by both, it is forwarded to the courts. After a judge has reviewed and signed, the agreement is then legally binding.

If a divorce is being sought and an agreement cannot be met, it can be requested to be taken to the courtroom where a ruling would be imposed. And this becomes legally binding.

Where I live, even this is not absolute. This divorce can still be re-opened. As more and more time passes, the risk/likelihood of such a request to the courts being granted becomes less and less. For example, one demanding their divorce agreement of two decades ago be redone is highly likely to be dismissed, then one of mere months ago. Also, the party that pushed/demanded for the divorce, in writing; made/offered the proposal, in writing; is unlikely to get “their” agreement re-examined/overturned. (Again, my locale. Other places are much more strict and agreements are more binding.)

Anyhow, there can be a business side of letting one’s spouse do the heavy lifting. It’s not just letting them feel what being divorce is like.

D

Thank you for all of this. Where I am, separation isn't a requirement and we have no-fault divorce, so if neither party wants to charge the other with a fault, then it becomes a matter of agreeing on the terms, having the legal agreement drawn up, both parties approving it and then submitting it to the court.

On the one hand, this can result in less conflict during the process, and might motivate some people to get out of really harmful or toxic marriages that might not do so otherwise.

The down side is that it can be argued that it makes marriages disposable and makes it easier for one party to simply walk out if they have no interest in working to reconcile.

[Sunflyer]

W asked for another talk today. This time, asking if I had thought about how we are going to tell our boys. I replied that I hadn't thought about it yet.

The wording of this is going to be important. I really do not want her to control the narrative and say something like "We have decided..." or "Your father and I have decided..." when I decided no such thing. I do not want to demonize her to our sons, but at the same time I don't want them to believe that I think that this is "for the best."

And she said that very thing again: "I really do believe this is the best for everyone."

She looked at me and said, "You want to say something. I can tell."

I said, "I've said everything I have to say about this. No point in saying it again."

Then I got up and left the room. I wasn't going to let her draw me in.

[Ready2Change]

The wording of this is going to be important. I really do not want her to control the narrative and say something like "We have decided..." or "Your father and I have decided..." when I decided no such thing. I do not want to demonize her to our sons, but at the same time I don't want them to believe that I think that this is "for the best."

I definitely have quoted some of the details on telling the children. This has been discussed here quit a bit.

This is one of the most difficult parts of the process. Get yourself prepared by searching through the quotes threads.

[Terapin]

W asked for another talk today. This time, asking if I had thought about how we are going to tell our boys. I replied that I hadn't thought about it yet.

The wording of this is going to be important. I really do not want her to control the narrative and say something like "We have decided..." or "Your father and I have decided..." when I decided no such thing. I do not want to demonize her to our sons, but at the same time I don't want them to believe that I think that this is "for the best."

And she said that very thing again: "I really do believe this is the best for everyone."

She looked at me and said, "You want to say something. I can tell."

I said, "I've said everything I have to say about this. No point in saying it again."

Then I got up and left the room. I wasn't going to let her draw me in.

Damn, are you married to my W? I'm about to go through the same thing with telling our son, and I'm not sure how to handle it either. I know she'll try telling him this was a mutual decision, etc, but that's all BS. I guess the best thing to do is play nice and agree with her? Eventually the kids will learn the truth. Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) my old school dad, who loves my son more than anything, already said he'll frequently remind him who was 100% responsible for breaking up the family. lol

[Sunflyer]

Damn, are you married to my W? I'm about to go through the same thing with telling our son, and I'm not sure how to handle it either. I know she'll try telling him this was a mutual decision, etc, but that's all BS. I guess the best thing to do is play nice and agree with her? Eventually the kids will learn the truth. Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) my old school dad, who loves my son more than anything, already said he'll frequently remind him who was 100% responsible for breaking up the family. lol

It is amazing, isn't it? While the backgrounds may differ, I see so many similarities when I read the situations of the various people on this forum. I understand why this walkaway spouse thing is called a syndrome. It's almost like there is an unwritten script, and they all are following it to the letter.

I hope you were able to have some kind of a decent Father's Day. I did. The difficult feelings were definitely there, but I didn't show them. W's brother hosted and the in-laws were as kind to me as ever, even though they know what is going on. While I expect their sympathies are with their daughter, I think they know I am a decent human being. I didn't cheat on their daughter, or abuse her, or come home drunk every night.

The only person I'm a bit ticked off at is my older son. Usually both of my sons write me a hand made card. My younger son did that, but not the older one. Although he does have a new girlfriend, so perhaps he is a bit preoccupied.

[Terapin]

Damn, are you married to my W? I'm about to go through the same thing with telling our son, and I'm not sure how to handle it either. I know she'll try telling him this was a mutual decision, etc, but that's all BS. I guess the best thing to do is play nice and agree with her? Eventually the kids will learn the truth. Fortunately (maybe unfortunately) my old school dad, who loves my son more than anything, already said he'll frequently remind him who was 100% responsible for breaking up the family. lol

It is amazing, isn't it? While the backgrounds may differ, I see so many similarities when I read the situations of the various people on this forum. I understand why this walkaway spouse thing is called a syndrome. It's almost like there is an unwritten script, and they all are following it to the letter.

I hope you were able to have some kind of a decent Father's Day. I did. The difficult feelings were definitely there, but I didn't show them. W's brother hosted and the in-laws were as kind to me as ever, even though they know what is going on. While I expect their sympathies are with their daughter, I think they know I am a decent human being. I didn't cheat on their daughter, or abuse her, or come home drunk every night.

The only person I'm a bit ticked off at is my older son. Usually both of my sons write me a hand made card. My younger son did that, but not the older one. Although he does have a new girlfriend, so perhaps he is a bit preoccupied.

Glad to hear you had a good day. I did as well. Took son fishing in the morning, then spent a few hours watching the Thunderbirds fly over my parents house.

Yes, they certainly seem to follow the exact same script. It's a shame there aren't websites or something out there that can reinforce to them that this is a syndrome/disorder. Instead, most of their friends, TV shows, etc will cheer them on saying 'you go girl!'

[Sunflyer]

One brief follow up to my previous post. Got nice cards and/or gifts from my in-laws and from my sister-in-law's parents.

W left me a card as well, on my chair.

The front of the card said "thinking of you at this difficult time."

You know, a sympathy card.

Like when somebody dies.