Eldest S had rejected a Christmas gift that was picked out by W. The two of them are very much at odds. He has expressed his anger to her about her treatment towards me and they are no longer speaking. He chose to abstain from some holiday events where she would be present.
I asked S if I could get him a different particular gift (similar or lower value that was meaningful to him). He accepted this and was very happy with the gift.
W (after finding out that I gave him a replacement gift): That’s really $hitty. You shouldn’t have done that (bought the new gift). If he’s an a$$hole he shouldn’t get a present.
M: I hear you don’t like it and it’s hard.
W: Don’t say you hear me. (Ends conversation).
Hours later when I was asleep, W sends meme to me by text message that shows a woman around her age preparing food with a voice over sounding like a therapist reflecting to their client what they have said about their needs being not valued and them being blamed for being nit-picky and nagging. Honestly it’s difficult for me to interpret
Is she telling me she has asked for the bare minimum and been disappointed over and over and made out to be the bad person?
Eldest S had rejected a Christmas gift that was picked out by W. The two of them are very much at odds. He has expressed his anger to her about her treatment towards me and they are no longer speaking. He chose to abstain from some holiday events where she would be present.
Those are his decisions. He understandably has strong emotions about W's actions. You are not responsible for their relationship. Leave it to S and W.
Originally Posted by Rockon
I asked S if I could get him a different particular gift (similar or lower value that was meaningful to him). He accepted this and was very happy with the gift.
Was this purely altruistic, or part that felt good about replacing W's gift? You don't have to answer...just self-reflect.
Originally Posted by Rockon
W (after finding out that I gave him a replacement gift): That’s really $hitty. You shouldn’t have done that (bought the new gift). If he’s an a$$hole he shouldn’t get a present.
M: I hear you don’t like it and it’s hard.
W: Don’t say you hear me. (Ends conversation).
We've repeatedly told you not to respond; not sure what you're confused about at this point.
Her text was a statement in anger. There was not question about finances or the kids. Therefore, no need to respond at all.
Originally Posted by Rockon
Hours later when I was asleep, W sends meme to me by text message that shows a woman around her age preparing food with a voice over sounding like a therapist reflecting to their client what they have said about their needs being not valued and them being blamed for being nit-picky and nagging. Honestly it’s difficult for me to interpret
Is she telling me she has asked for the bare minimum and been disappointed over and over and mzade out to be the bad person?
Don't spend your time analyzing her. It's not a puzzle you can solve.
Originally Posted by Rockon
I haven’t responded yet.
Don't!
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
Whenever you engage you lose. I know many people here encourage validation with waywards but this is why I don't like it. That don't deserve it and it comes off condescending.
Originally Posted by Rockon
Hours later when I was asleep, W sends meme to me by text message that shows a woman around her age preparing food with a voice over sounding like a therapist reflecting to their client what they have said about their needs being not valued and them being blamed for being nit-picky and nagging. Honestly it’s difficult for me to interpret
Yep most middle age women don't feel like they are appreciated for what they do for everyone just as most middle age men don't feel appreciated for providing for their family.
Originally Posted by Rockon
Is she telling me she has asked for the bare minimum and been disappointed over and over and made out to be the bad person?
Yep. Even though she is the one having the affair she feels justified.
Glad to hear you and W already have separate credit cards. Credit cards and overdraft are the biggest potential for immediate debt load.
Originally Posted by Rockon
W: “…probably at some point in the future it will make sense for us to just pay for our own food and gas (currently we pay out of our joint account for local travel/work and reasonable personal groceries), but this is working okay. It might be interesting to see how much we are each spending on those budget items.”
M (later on): “thanks for sharing these ideas would be happy to talk through it more. Just having dinner now”
W (immediate): “ok thanks. have a nice dinner”
A few comments for you.
“W: It might be interesting to see how much we are each spending on budget items.”
Rock, it’s none of her business how much you are spending, or on what. Famous Star Wars line. No not that one, the other one - “It’s a trap!” This is her digging for information, which will likely get used against you. Do not walk into a trap.
Some advice newcomers get when they are first starting out, is to not share what you learn with your spouse. That hold true for more than just legal stuff and DB wisdom/path/journey. How you spend your money, what you spend it on, where you go, what you eat, how stocked your fridge is, and so - not her business.
M (later on): “thanks for sharing these ideas would be happy to talk through it more. Just having dinner now”
Did you wait 24-48 hours? Was she asking a question about bills or kids?
Why let her know you are very having dinner now? Why interrupt dinner? I interrupt dinner and other things for those I love and care about, and because they deserve it. Your W is not deserving of that priority in your life right now.
Are you really “happy to talk through it more”? Happy? I get that you were probably just being kind and cordial, yet your response is written and re-readable over and over and over for her. What do you think your words are reinforcing for her. This is why the 24-48 hours, limited engagement, and sticking with matters of bills and kids.
A hindsight suggestion to her text:
W: “…probably at some point in the future it will make sense for us to just pay for our own food and gas (currently we pay out of our joint account for local travel/work and reasonable personal groceries), but this is working okay. It might be interesting to see how much we are each spending on those budget items.”
M: Paying for our own food and gas sounds like a sensible idea. I agree. Starting tomorrow no more personal expenses from the joint account for either of us.
I agree with BL about utilizing email over text. Email is much easier for tracking and saving.
- - - -
Originally Posted by Rockon
Eldest S had rejected a Christmas gift that was picked out by W. The two of them are very much at odds. He has expressed his anger to her about her treatment towards me and they are no longer speaking. He chose to abstain from some holiday events where she would be present.
I asked S if I could get him a different particular gift (similar or lower value that was meaningful to him). He accepted this and was very happy with the gift.
W (after finding out that I gave him a replacement gift): That’s really $hitty. You shouldn’t have done that (bought the new gift). If he’s an a$$hole he shouldn’t get a present.
M: I hear you don’t like it and it’s hard.
W: Don’t say you hear me. (Ends conversation).
Your job is not to facilitate the relationship between W and son, or son and W. Your job is to not destroy it.
I have a fair bit of experience with kids angry at their Mom and her treatment towards them and me.
Originally Posted by Rockon
Looking for some help with my validation.
I offer my perspective and viewpoint.
You validated the wrong person.
You should have spoken with son. Listened to son. Not bought him a new present.
Rock, son is 24. He is angry with his Mom. Let him be angry. Let W have her consequences.
I was speaking to Doug54 (you reading along Doug?) about appropriate accountability. This is a good example of such. Let W be held accountable. It’s appropriate.
Let’s dig in to this.
This Christmas present thing is between son and his Mom, and W and her son. His Mom. Her son. Notice how “Rock” is not mentioned in that kerfuffle? You don’t need to solve it, nor protect anyone. And you certainly don’t need to get in the middle of it, all that does is get you blamed. Which of course W did.
A tough lesson I had to experience and learn. My kids are grownups. For their entire lives they’ve been kids, dependent upon me and W. Me, Dad, was provider, protector, teacher, authority, etc. Around BD the kids were teens/adults and proceeding through their rebellious stage. A tough time to reconfigure a lifetime - their entire lifetimes - of my viewpoint and behaviours towards them.
I understand buying S24 a different present. It’s try to fix things. To smooth things over. However, that’s not what is needed here.
You asked for help with validating. Here it is. Step up. Talk and listen to S24 as an adult.
Your son is 24. He didn’t want a new present. He wanted to be heard. And he is looking for guidance. Trust me Rock, he watching you and learning how act, react, and treat others and himself by your example. He will emulate you!
Do this instead:
I asked S if I could get him a different particular gift (similar or lower value that was meaningful to him). He accepted this and was very happy with the gift. about his feelings. And he unloaded!
It is, at first, weird to speak more peer to peer with our adult kids. I am still their Dad. It does take an interesting shift in ourselves to see them as competent and able in their own right; not the kids I’ve known for their lifetime.
Anyhow, speaking openly with son will likely bring forth a lot of anger towards W. Validate it! His feelings are perfectly normal and healthy and need to be expressed. Let him lead, you encourage and gently steer the conversation without demonizing his Mom. From my experiences, he has lots to get off his chest.
For validating W:
W (after finding out that I gave him a replacement gift): That’s really $hitty. You shouldn’t have done that (bought the new gift). If he’s an a$$hole he shouldn’t get a present.
M: I hear you don’t like it and it’s hard. You are right. I should not have done that. I’m sorry.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You should have spoken with son. Listened to son. Not bought him a new present.
Rock, son is 24. He is angry with his Mom. Let him be angry. Let W have her consequences... You don’t need to solve it, nor protect anyone. And you certainly don’t need to get in the middle of it,
Completely agree.
Validation is about YOU identifying someone else's EMOTIONAL STATE. That is it.
Son, you sound angry. Son, I would be angry to. Son, does that make you frustrated?
Originally Posted by DnJ
He wanted to be heard. Anyhow, speaking openly with son will likely bring forth a lot of anger towards W. Validate it! His feelings are perfectly normal and healthy and need to be expressed. Let him lead, you encourage and gently steer the conversation without demonizing his Mom. From my experiences, he has lots to get off his chest.
This is one of the best pieces of advise you have received.
These are the type of statement I had to make with my kids when they were younger: "It is OK to be angry. It is not OK to hit your sister." Can you make a statement similar that you should say to your S24 about MOM? Practice here is much easier than learning the hard way.
Originally Posted by DnJ
For validating W:
W (after finding out that I gave him a replacement gift): That’s really $hitty. You shouldn’t have done that (bought the new gift). If he’s an a$$hole he shouldn’t get a present.
M: I hear you don’t like it and it’s hard. You are right. I should not have done that. I’m sorry.
D
For me, I would have said one of these:
M: "I understand this made you angry." or "I am sorry this made you angry" or "It was not my intention to make you angry" or "I can see now why you would be angry"
I am sure I could come up with more with a little more thought. Then I would pick the best one.
It is a simple pattern you can practice with everyone. You do not even have to say anything. That person looks pissed. That person looks happy. That person is raging with anger. Think to yourself, "What would I say to validate?"
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Glad to hear you and W already have separate credit cards. Credit cards and overdraft are the biggest potential for immediate debt load.
Agreed, but check w/L to make sure it's not marital debt anyway - nothing legal is in place yet.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Did you wait 24-48 hours? Was she asking a question about bills or kids?
Why let her know you are very having dinner now? Why interrupt dinner? I interrupt dinner and other things for those I love and care about, and because they deserve it. Your W is not deserving of that priority in your life right now.
All great questions DnJ. Give these some thought, Rockon.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
For me, I would have said one of these:
M: "I understand this made you angry." or "I am sorry this made you angry" or "It was not my intention to make you angry" or "I can see now why you would be angry"
Personally I wouldn't say "sorry", but like the other 3.
Also remember...no response at all to that particular text message is perfectly valid, perhaps preferred.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
Eldest S had rejected a Christmas gift that was picked out by W. The two of them are very much at odds. He has expressed his anger to her about her treatment towards me and they are no longer speaking. He chose to abstain from some holiday events where she would be present.
I asked S if I could get him a different particular gift (similar or lower value that was meaningful to him). He accepted this and was very happy with the gift.
I'm prolly gonna come at this from a completely different angle....
The way that I read that is....
She bought him a gift that he didn't like/want, and then you went behind her back and tried to fix it by buying him a similar gift ??
Who were you fixing it for ??
Why are you in the middle of their relationship ?
Because I gotta say, I'm on her side with this one.
And the only thing that Validating does, is to convince yourself into thinking that what you did was right, or just....
Validation at that point is you trying to justify your actions by being in the middle of their business...
Validation at that point is you telling her that your decision was better than hers.
It comes across as fake, and insincere...
Originally Posted by Rockon
W (after finding out that I gave him a replacement gift): That’s really $hitty. You shouldn’t have done that (bought the new gift). If he’s an a$$hole he shouldn’t get a present.
M: I hear you don’t like it and it’s hard.
W: Don’t say you hear me. (Ends conversation).
If the above is how I interpreted it, then I'm on her side with this one....
Originally Posted by Rockon
Honestly it’s difficult for me to interpret
Is she telling me she has asked for the bare minimum and been disappointed over and over and made out to be the bad person?
I'm not her....however I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express... : )
I think she is telling you that she doesn't feel valued, and doesn't feel like her decisions matter, or possibly have ever mattered.
She's telling you that she doesn't need you to fix her problems for her, and she is quite capable of making decisions, even if they appear to be incorrect to everyone except her...
She is telling you that YOUR fix for HER problems aren't the answers that she wants in her life...
She is telling you that she feels overrun by you, and you facilitate that, and still are doing it by your actions recently...
She is telling you that you haven't changed a bit in her eyes, even though you think that you have....
So Rock.....
If you really want to Validate....
Change places with her, and imagine how controlled and dis-respected YOU would feel if she did this to you behind your back....
What could be said to make YOU feel valued and respected in that situation...
“ And I just wanted to explain more why I was so hurt last night. It felt like you were being the “Disneyland dad”- the fun dad that gets to be the hero, the good guy, maybe even the victim. I am not the bad guy, just the one that was brave enough to imagine a healthier life for both of us. When you do things that side you with the kids against me, it’s not healthy for any of us, and makes a future where we can have a respectful friendship very difficult.”
Pausing. I don’t want to knee jerk, defend or argue. I appreciate your input everyone.
Here’s a draft.
“I can see now why you would be hurt and how that could feel like me siding with our kids. Thank you for telling me.That’s not my intention.
I don’t see myself as a victim and I don’t see you as the bad guy. I’m glad that we are both focusing on our health.”
