Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.
When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.
As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.
If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.
Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"
Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.
Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.
If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.
In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
First off, welcome to the best, worst place to find yourself in...
Secondly, I agree with most of the stuff the guys have posted to you, taking a stand, doing your thing, making this about you.....
I also want you to understand that YOU have more control over this than you think that you do..
The forgiveness question is a hard one. Most guys say that they draw a line in the sand when the question is posed to them about what they would do if their spouse was to have an affair. Hell, most people in general stand in a crowd with that rhetorical question and answer that they would boot their ass to the curb....
Yet we never quite know what we are capable of until we find ourselves in the thick of it....
I will say though, IF you cannot forgive her, even if you learn of a PA, then you might as well just pull the plug. YOUR forgiveness is your key out of hell....for her, and especially for yourself....
Is she F'ing someone else ? Who knows, nobody except 2 people know that for sure, and you aren't one of them..nor is anyone here...
Does it really matter to you ? Is it a deal breaker for you ??
You need to know that.....
A lot of what I've read seems to be about you trying to "fix" the situation, and to make things better.
Men are fixers, that's what we do. If something is broken, we want to fix it.
I can tell you that no matter how hard you try, you cannot fix this, or her. It won't work that way.
It didn't break overnight, and it won't resolve overnight...the harder that you fight that, the more you are stopping the natural flow of things....
You have 25 years worth of anger and resentment, from BOTH sides of this that are coming into play, and you BOTH are going to have to work through all of that before anything can change. And it's better to be in your own head, rather than hers.....
By the time that most of us found ourselves here, the marriage that you know is dead and gone. Fighting for it is a futile waste of time.
And I am NOT saying that you cannot have a productive, loving marriage again with your current spouse, just that anything in the future will have to be an entirely new relationship with her. And that CAN happen...
However, on the other side of this....
YOU will hopefully be different...
SHE will hopefully be different...
And you will never want to try to drive that square peg into a round hole....
You might want to stop trying to control the situation by changing her or telling her that she is wrong.
You need to understand that her version of the story will vary greatly from your version of events, and you need to accept that you see this relationship in totally different perspectives.
And that, that is okay for now. Your "truths" will not match, and no matter how hard you try...her truth is hers...
You need to ask yourself how long did she carry this marriage on her back ? And now you've suddenly decided that you want to be different, and make changes....
Surely, those changes are only to get your way...right ??
She is fighting for herself, and you are fighting to "get your way".....get used to that being her mindset.
Of course she doesn't believe your changes....
Would you if the tables were turned ???
Did you make them because you are tired of being that person for yourself ? Or only so that she will notice them and come back into the relationship ?
Whatever changes that you make had better be for you and you only. You are the one that has to look at yourself in the mirror at night, and the reflection that you see needs to be real, and honest.
Changing only to get your way is manipulation and control at it finest.
Time and consistent actions are the only thing that may change her mind....
Remember this also....
You are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.....
Just be sure of the "whys" of DBing....
Most of the advice has been geared towards leaving her....
So let me ask you this....
Why ARE you DBing ??
WHY are you choosing to stand ???
Is it truly love ??
Is it guilt ??
Is it obligation ??
What do all of those things really mean to you ? Deep down ?
Ask yourself those question. The answers will drive your stand, and your behaviors in the direction that you want to go in.
Find out who you really are when the lights are turned off at the end of the day....
That's the guy that you have to live with, to Parent with, to be a Son for, be a Husband with....
Would you want to be in a relationship with yourself ??
Anywoo......
Keep posting, ask questions.....
Things won't always be this way...that's the only promise I can make you....
Nothing has to happen today, or change today.
Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung...
Find your peace .....that is your best place to be....
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.
Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.
If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.
If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.
If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.
If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.
If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.
*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.
*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.
UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Yes, we all walk/walked a similar path. Grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, & acceptance - letting go, withdrawal, indifference, etc; it’s quite a bog to work through. Many stages, with different overlaps, different orders, for each person. Yet generally a similar path.
We’ve all felt weak laying alone thinking about what our spouse could be doing. As you’ve seen, you’re not alone, and you will get through it.
Something I read long ago, God never places more upon your shoulders than you can handle. I was like lots of folks and prayed for strength to make it though this. And it was answered. Our answers are usually not how we want them, rather how we need them. Strength is gain by enduring and working through our burden.
It’s not really about the destination, it’s the journey. It’s working and walking through that bog.
Life is a journey, and at times the path gets pretty rough. Have faith, it will smooth out.
Stay strong. Focus on you. And keep moving forward.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I find myself, rather frequently, commenting on Newcomer posts (especially in those first few months when people are floundering and struggling with loss of control over their life and acute grief) about the importance of exercise in promoting better mental health outcomes.
So I've decided to write this post just for general help, but also because it will allow me to lazily refer people to it - rather than typing out the same information every time.
This is information I didn't know when my wife cleaned out the house and stole my kids when I was away with work. It helped me tremendously once I understood it. I wish I'd known it at bomb drop!
The human brain is an incredibly complex, and at the same time, incredibly simple thing. Humans are different to all other species because of our highly developed frontal coretex, which is the higher thinking, reasoning, critical thinking part of our brain that allows us to analyse, predict and make informed, intellectual decisions. It is responsible for us developing into modern society, controlling the environment in which we live, and for amazing things like sending humans to the moon in rockets.
Our brain also has another part, called the amygdala. It is small, dumb and primal - and protected us millions of years ago when we were being chased by a lion. It is responsible for our fight or flight instinct. It makes you flinch when a ball is about to hit you in the face, it drops adrenaline and cortisol into your blood stream when you're at risk of being hurt, and increases your heart and respiration rate almost instantly so you can run from danger or stand and fight.
It's a short term, acute system. If you watch a gazelle being chased by a lion, it gets shocked when it realises, jumps up, and runs with incredible speed in the opposite direction to stay alive. But if you were to watch that same gazelle 10 minutes later after surviving a lion attack, it would be drinking calmly at a waterhole, or laying asleep under a tree with a normal, slow heart rate
That's how that part of our brain system is supposed to work - a sudden, huge physiological response to a threat - which disappears just as quickly as it arrived.
The problem for us humans going through a bomb drop and 2-3 year protracted and antagonistic divorce, is that reptilian part of our brain stays engaged for minutes, hours and sometimes days. Our heart rate stays up, we are full of adrenaline, and we become hyper-stimulated because we feel threatened (our normal, calm life is being uprooted).
This leads to sleep disturbance, loss of control of emotions, poor decision making, chronic stress - and bad long term mental health outcomes.
I felt like I'd been hit by a train. I couldn't sleep. I vacillated between desperately wanting to save my marriage, and wanting to set the world on fire. Unless you've been there, you can't understand the grief and uncertainty and pain associated with bomb drop and the aftermath.
My work union has a welfare and assistance arm which helps people going through difficult times in their life. I decided to reach out about two months in, and was put in touch with a counsellor who specialised in helping people in my profession (which has some unique implications with divorce).
I spoke to a counsellor who'd been helping people in my profession deal with life events (namely divorce) for forty years. He was, quite simply, a fount of knowledge.
He cited a bunch of scientific studies which had compared mental health outcomes of medicating, counselling or hard physical exercise.
Every one of those studies showed that daily, hard physical exercise was the best way to manage your mental health and to survive and thrive through an acute life event such as bomb drop and an acrimonious divorce.
Combination therapy (such as exercise paired with regular counselling) had even better outcomes, but exclusively, nothing was better than exercise. He joked I shouldn't tell many people, because if everyone learned this fact, it could very well put him out of a job.
Amongst lots of other advice and tools he provided, he wanted me to make an assurance that I would do 60 mins of hard, physical exercise every day for thirty days. The thirty day rule was because there's a lag time between input and results, so most people stick at it for a week or so, don't feel any better and give up. It takes between 3 and 4 weeks for you to start feeling better, so he wanted an assurance I'd do thirty days before giving up.
So I did. I was already quite fit at the time. I would do lots of hiking in the hills near where I live, and walked to the shops frequently, playing sport with my kids too. But walking for an hour, or meandering along on a bike wasn't what he had in mind. He insisted that it was 60 mins of HARD, physical exercise - like lifting weights at the gym, or running with heart rate >160bpm, or hiking up tall mountains carrying a 20kg pack.
So I got myself a gym membership with my brother, and we started lifting weights. It was inconvenient. He lives a long way away, so we'd meet half way (about a 30 minute drive). I'm a shift worker with irregular shifts, so sometimes I was there at 6am, and other days at 10pm. I felt physically exhausted a lot of the time, and my body ached at work as I recovered. I hit the protein shakes and downloaded a training app to my phone to track my progress.
About two weeks in, I'd had enough. It was really hard to motivate myself to exercise after a 12 hour shift. But I hung in there, because I told him I'd do thirty days, and also because I didn't want to let my brother down after dragging him into it.
After about three weeks, I started to notice some changes. Physical changes and a six pack - yes, but I mean mental health changes. I was beginning to fall asleep much more quickly (mindfulness app helped with this too). I noticed I spent less time thinking about the manipulative witch who was wreaking havoc on my family. Another few days after that, I noticed I was starting to look forward to going to the gym and started bugging my brother to do 75 minutes. A few women from work, out of the blue, said I was looking great.
At the end of the thirty days, I was hooked. My counsellor rang for a follow up, and I relayed my story. I could tell he was trying to hold back his smugness of "I told you so".
He went on to explain that hard, exhausting physical exercise is very important for shifting you brain from being controlled by the amygdala (the primal, reptilian bit which controls flight or flight) and re-engages your frontal coretex so that you start making measured, intelligent decisions and responding to interactions with your wayward/walkaway spouse without emotion driven behaviour.
This didn't fix my sitch. Exercising hard every day wasn't a quick fix for my relationship problems. My ex was still a manipulative, controlling PITA who dragged me through court and played chess with my kids and our money. IMHO though, I won the court battle and had a much better outcome on kids and finance as a result.
The most important thing though, was this exercise allowed me to regain control of my life, my thoughts, my physical health, my sleep and my confidence. It was more helpful than a counsellor, more helpful than anything I read on this forum, and got me through the hardest time of my life. I'm now on the other side with a new partner, a new house, lots of time with my kids and succeeding in my job like I have never done before. Meanwhile, my ex got dumped by her AP, kicked out of her rental and is living on someone else's lounge room floor.
So - here's the rub. If you're here for any reason, but particularly as a newbie who's landed at DB after an unexpected BD - you need to get your butt off to the gym. And you need to exercise HARD and LONG, and you can't give up under ANY circumstances for the first thirty days. Get a friend/relative to exercise with to improve your accountability.
It won't fix your crazy WS/WAS. It won't fix your relationship. But it will fix YOU, and it will switch off your reptile brain and get you sleeping, thinking carefully, and making calm, rational, intelligent decisions with the higher functioning part of your human brain.
You've got this!
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
It's really difficult to figure out what the rest of your life is going to be when someone's just blown it to smithereens.
However, there's another way to look at this: you now have what Jack3Beans used to call the gift of time. I say if you can take this precious gift (that we all know you never asked for) and use it to figure out who you are now. You know who you were before your marriage and during your marriage. Give yourself the opportunity to discover who you are now. This process will change you. Take time to process those changes. Really think about what your core values are now, and what is most important to you. Taking the time to do this will help you figure out what you really want in your life as you move forward either with or without your wife.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Please do not think my trying to put things into simple terms means I think this stuff is easy. I wish it were. All of us here have been through it to some level, and we all made lots of mistakes. And we've all come through it, no matter the outcome, for better or for worse. So we try to help newcomers to look at things differently so that they can start to maybe see the wisdom in DBing. When I first started DBingI was awful at it. Over days and weeks I got better. I think I still was only at 80-90% proficient in my best days!
So just keep working at it. The beauty of it is that it will help you get over your over attachment and your desire to please her at the expense of your own wants and desires. One day you will wake up and your mind and emotions won't be racing with thoughts of devastation if she decides to split. Its hard to think you will get there but keep working at GAL, 180ing and self improvements, and detachment, and you will get there!
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
That's where the lawyers comes in...best person to advise you what you're entitled to in your jurisdiction. Don't remember if you said where you're located, but there are main areas of consideration:
*Custody - N/A for D23 & S17. A few years for D13. Don't accept anything less than 50/50. *Child Support - N/A for D23. Maybe S17, but some states are until 21. A few more years for D13. Often an online calculator for your state to run your income and your wife's income and estimate the obligation. *Assets - Guessing based on married 25 years neither of you have significant pre-martial assets, but if you do some states are either Equitable or Equal Distribution of Assets. The former meaning generally you take premarital assets off the top before dividing in two, the latter just straight up divide in half. *Spousal Support - Typically based on the length of marriage and disparity in income. You know both of those factors. Often times there's a straight up online calculator for length and amount of support. You should be able to find something by googling your state name and spousal support calculator.
Start gathering bank statements on EVERYTHING you can (credit cards, checking/savings accounts, retirement accounts...etc.). You should know how much you have in your 401k and how much she has in hers. Assuming neither had a significant amount 25 years ago before marriage it's a straightforward add up and divide by two. Unless she's willing to sign the farm away, which is possible, but probably unlikely...especially the longer it plays out.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
It’s perfectly normal to consider and explore the what ifs of a relationship’s past. You are not living in fantasy land, you are considering and altering direction.
Lots of folks avoid conflict. It appears your W learnt to stuff down and ignore conflict; to back down. And given your upbringing I’d suspect you have a similar distaste for facing conflicts.
More open respectful communication is always a good thing. Communication is usually the biggest cause/problem in any relationship. Learning how to lead and facilitate difficult conversations is a most valuable life skill to acquire. Life has difficulties and conflicts will arise. Discussing those is needed.
Resolution of conflict comes not from sorting out who is right and who is wrong, it comes from seeing and hearing the other’s side. That takes empathy and leaving one’s ego out of things. When both participate towards that end, the solution is win/win. Not a compromise, that’s lose/lose. A win/win, a decision where both parties achieve their true desired outcome. And often, it’s rather surprising what solutions folks can come up with.
That outcome, the possibility that both can achieve their goal, usually eludes folks due to our us against them societal defaults. Folks are programmed - media, politics, and so on - that to win the other must lose. Such constant reinforcement is a yoke that drags the unaware, and conflicts brew and stagnate.
Conflict, difficult conversations, just some things to consider and perhaps look into during your journey forward.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Don't compare your life with others. The reason that I say this is that people, in general, want us to be happy and they think that once the ink is dry on the divorce decree that you should be out there searching for the next companion. For some that works, for others, it takes longer to get from Part A to Part B. You are wise to take this time for yourself. You will know when you are ready to date again. It may not be today, tomorrow or next month....but you will know.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
