I have been pondering... first off, I cannot read this thread and NOT hear the song so, thanks for that. LOL
My work is done....
Coulda been Milli Vanilli...
Originally Posted by Grace_OM
It is really hard to hear our kids pain, whether we are the direct cause of it or not. And memory is fallible. I remember a conversation with one of my D's about an event, and she was angry at me for something surrounding it. We went back and forth for a minute because I remembered it differently. Bottom line, I did not want to be the cause of more pain for her and I was resisting. What happened was I apologized and it changed the dynamic. It might be a game changer for your Son and his Mom, IF she can find it in herself to not need to be right and realize she caused A LOT of pain. I got lucky, maybe she will too. I have encouraged and cajoled my D's to have the relationship they want with their Dad, and well, you know how that's gone so far...Not very far. Keep in mind, I'm still wet behind the ears, so...
I'm glad you made the "IF" really big in that....
She has always been in the 'kids are resilient' camp...
And to a degree, they are. They are also more of a ----they are as resilient as we teach them to be, camp.
I would imagine that the problem now for her is that although they were resilient as kids, now they are young adults. And as we know, we ain't as resilient as we used to be as we get older.
They are trying to fit pieces of the puzzle together on what happened to their lives. Why did this happen, and how did this happen.
It's fairly obvious in talking to him that lies were abundant. When I would explain what I witnessed, there were several "oh schidt, THAT makes sense , and aligns with what I remember"
I hope the dynamic changes for them...
Originally Posted by Grace_OM
There's the rub my friend. You are a bit of a caretaker (LMAO). In my experience, folks like you have to make a concerted effort to make time for themselves. I have also wondered if it isn't a defense mechanism as well. Stay busy helping and you distract yourself. Not that that is always a bad thing, sometimes processing everything takes time.
Bit.....might be an understatement there.
I have been doing better at making time for myself and trying to feed my soul. I'm not even sure what the F that means nowadays. I'm finally eating healthier again, I was thinking over this past weekend...Okay, you are up, showered, and moving about. what else do I expect of myself today ? I'm doing better with trying to get out a bit more, and realized that feeling isolated has little to do with being at home. I can feel that wherever I am. So the DB theory of faking it until I make it is in play for now. I've been finishing some stuff around the house, and even started a couple new things. I'm starting to recognize that I am the person that I wanted to be all along, and I didn't need to break myself down to find that out. I think I said before that when my marriage ended I was broken, and I did the work and found who I was. Since K passed, I'm just heartbroken, and it's a big difference between the two things.
The hobbies that we had, we shared because of a common love for them. Sure, there were things that I did, and things that she did for each other, yet our common things were at the forefront of our life. So breaking those things down to see if it still "fits" has been difficult. I've kinda went back to basics some too. Things that were only mine and for me.
As a defense mechanism, yea, probably to a large degree. That caretaking aspect is hard to just turn off, at least for me. It went from 100mph to ZERO, like Oprah trying to walk past a Twinkie, in the matter of a second. A lot of what I post is about me trying NOT to caretake things. I'm sure that it reads like I am trying to 'do' something about it. In reality, I'm just trying to find MY balance in it, and I am sure that using it as a defense is part of that.
You always make me think my friend.....and I thank you for that....
Take it as it comes... don't threaten me with Milli Vanilli
Resilience is such an interesting word. I agree we teach our kids resilience. I also think we use the word in the context of divorce and loss because WE NEED them to be resilient. We need to feel like we didn't skrew the pooch. To some extent, I think we banter the word around to make ourselves feel better and not so out of control.
Someone I know says "if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough" I got high tensile steel in these veins
I wish them Godspeed in finding their way. They have you as a grounding wire. It means more than you know that they have a tether to someone/something solid. I've also been told that tether lasts because it's founded in a way of looking at things, and that outlasts us as beings. I like the idea of that, whether it's true or not, who knows. I know it to be real for some folks including me.
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I'm doing better with trying to get out a bit more, and realized that feeling isolated has little to do with being at home. I can feel that wherever I am. So the DB theory of faking it until I make it is in play for now.
Yeah, feeling isolated can happen anywhere. That you're getting out, just opens up opportunities for things to happen. Good on you for that!
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I am the person that I wanted to be all along, and I didn't need to break myself down to find that out. I think I said before that when my marriage ended I was broken, and I did the work and found who I was. Since K passed, I'm just heartbroken, and it's a big difference between the two things.
Cheers to the journey that made you who you wanted to be. Finding out who you really are is hard work and seeing through the lies we tell ourselves, well, I know I preaching to the choir. I also know this is an awesome distinction between broken and brokenhearted. It can be easy and too simple to just refer to ourselves as broken.
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That caretaking aspect is hard to just turn off, at least for me. It went from 100mph to ZERO, like Oprah trying to walk past a Twinkie, in the matter of a second. A lot of what I post is about me trying NOT to caretake things. I'm sure that it reads like I am trying to 'do' something about it. In reality, I'm just trying to find MY balance in it, and I am sure that using it as a defense is part of that.
Dude...I see your turning off the caretaking a bit more like:"Pop quiz guys. What happens when an electric bike going 60 miles per hour hits and anti-electric field going in the opposite direction?" Sometimes just hanging back and seeing how it goes works in your favor. I'm sure this will for you.
Yeah I was told the kids are resilient speech too .. what a load of crap. Sure they're resilient, but like Kipling said, "For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
Kids get their strength from a solid base provided by their loving parents. Cracks in that foundation directly affect their resilience.
Sorry. That's just always p!$$ed me off, this notion of oh, the kids are resilient so it's ok to blow up our lives. Oops ... another trigger ...
Seems I get really angry still mostly around anything that affects/ed my son. I've let most of the other stuff go.
But I digress.
Yeah, it's easier to avoid our own feelings by taking care of others. It's also a huge let down when we go from 100% care taking to 0 because the person we loved and took care of is now gone. The full force of the exhaustion kept at bay for so long so we could keep showing up when our loved one needed us comes over like a tidal wave and leaves one pummeled on the beach with sand in our shorts. a whole lotta sand. It's not comfortable and takes a while to get back to a normal energy level. I find for me it requires a whole lotta faith and trust. Some days I have more of it than others. Hope this makes sense.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
I think the 'kids are resilient' speech is on page 14 of the MLC manual that they all seem to read through....
When I got mine, my Ex blurted out that kids are resilient and can get through anything.
I asked her how that was working out for her and her childhood, and all the crap that she had gone through. Because kids aren't resilient naturally. Kids are forgetful, and have the ability to block out deep emotional issues because they aren't emotionally mature enough to handle them. So they give the appearance that they are resilient by shutting down and blocking the things that hurt .
Kids are TAUGHT to be resilient, yet, in most cases, these issues won't raise their hand until much later in a child's life when they mature enough to deal with them. Much like I am dealing with now with my Son.
Most of the time, they are able to work through them as they get older, and become well rounded emotionally healthy individuals. And sometimes they cannot navigate through those issues and their spouses end up on a public forum that advocates marriage. and making sure there is no stone unturned in saving said marriage. And of course, the most public form of miracle healing with the thousands of Dr Phil appearances. And the truly lucky get to be on Springer, blaming everyone on the planet for their woes in life, and saying........
I think one of the toughest parts of being a parent is realizing that my children's lives are their own and it isn't my place to "want". I want them to have the life they are dreaming.
Good thought - lots to ponder as a parent.
Originally Posted by Mach1
She has always been in the 'kids are resilient' camp...
Originally Posted by Grace_OM
Resilience is such an interesting word. I agree we teach our kids resilience. I also think we use the word in the context of divorce and loss because WE NEED them to be resilient. We need to feel like we didn't skrew the pooch. To some extent, I think we banter the word around to make ourselves feel better and not so out of control.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Yeah I was told the kids are resilient speech too .. what a load of crap. Sure they're resilient, but like Kipling said, "For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
Kids get their strength from a solid base provided by their loving parents. Cracks in that foundation directly affect their resilience.
Sorry. That's just always p!$$ed me off, this notion of oh, the kids are resilient so it's ok to blow up our lives. Oops ... another trigger ...
Originally Posted by Mach1
I think the 'kids are resilient' speech is on page 14 of the MLC manual that they all seem to read through....
I've heard the "kids are resilient" quite a bit from people too. Wouldn't it be nice if they weren't put into a position to be "resilient" for their family and parents' marriage...
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
I've heard the "kids are resilient" quite a bit from people too. Wouldn't it be nice if they weren't put into a position to be "resilient" for their family and parents' marriage...
Yes, yes it would.
Back when it all hit the fan in my world, I went looking for data on the effects of divorce on children and longitudinal studies were my goal. I will admit (sheepishly), I was looking for data that supported the resiliency. I NEEDED to know my D's would be ok. I had a very high risk situation involving self harm and suicidal ideation and beyond, so, I was a bit desperate.
I found the Wallerstein study (done over 25 years in Marin CA) and given the limitations in terms of the number of families (somewhere around 50) and it was conducted in a fairly liberal area, I clearly had my own bias going in. What I got was something different. Bottom line, yes the damage is real and in many cases, lifelong.
Can we help our kids...absolutely, but like you said...better to not be put in the position.
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"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack."
True. The Pack leader is firm. The Pack leader is fair. And, you can only lead from the front. So, if we fail in these things, those we love most, pay the cost.
It’s weird to say, but I’m “lucky” . Divorce happened before my child knew a 2 parent Home. Way before. I remember her pain during her handoffs when she was a toddler/preschooler. But she doesn’t. It’s all she has ever known and she’s an amazing kid with minimal Scarring. She has a dad and a mom who get along.
I’m lucky. I don’t know much she has had to know “resiliency” because she has t had to bounce back. It’s like someone who was born deaf. They dont know what it is like to hear, and they can’t miss it.
I don't think there is any doubt that children are better off in a family where the parents are together and are happy, healthy, respect one another and enjoy being together. The question becomes how many long-term marriages fit that equation? One of my best friends has been married 25 years and has 5 kids and right now is staying married for the children. His house is very toxic because they fight with one another and call each other names and can't stand the fact the other is breathing. Now whose kids need to be more resilient his or mine? Mine go from one house where there is peace and love to the next house where there is peace and love.
Both my parents and my exw's parents were/are in toxic marriages. Guess what we both brought into our marriage?
There are good divorces and there are bad divorces. The ones where the children struggle are typically (but not always hence the use of the word typically) because one or both of the parents aren't holding up their end of the bargain of putting the children first. When the children get dropped off and picked up a police station the children are more than likely going to have to be resilient.
My children feel loved by both of us, they know that we are there for them, they have each other, and that is more than enough. Believe me it is.
I don't think there is any doubt that children are better off in a family where the parents are together and are happy, healthy, respect one another and enjoy being together. The question becomes how many long-term marriages fit that equation? One of my best friends has been married 25 years and has 5 kids and right now is staying married for the children. His house is very toxic because they fight with one another and call each other names and can't stand the fact the other is breathing. Now whose kids need to be more resilient his or mine? Mine go from one house where there is peace and love to the next house where there is peace and love.
Even in the most perfect of circumstances, children will inevitably-at some point in time- wish that their parents were still together....and wonder why they aren't.
In the most perfect of situations, children will still get tired of not having a permanent "home" that doesn't change weekly. They will get tired of having to plan where they are going to be on what week, and forgetting certain clothing items at one house or another. Having to check plans for each house when planning a sleepover, or forgetting which house this holiday is at this year....
The issues through divorce are still there. They may change and be different depending on the situation, however they are still present. That CAN be minimized through a good co-parenting system, however not in a parallel parenting system (which is often the case).
Toxic or not, children still want stability.
Those questions will still arise at some point, likely when your children are coming into their own, and finding out who they really are, and how their past will define them for their future.
So resiliency is graded on a curve for each situation, and the level of need may not appear until years down the road ....
Originally Posted by LH19
There are good divorces and there are bad divorces. The ones where the children struggle are typically (but not always hence the use of the word typically) because one or both of the parents aren't holding up their end of the bargain of putting the children first. When the children get dropped off and picked up a police station the children are more than likely going to have to be resilient.
And there is the rub....
It's expected that both parents will put the children first, and that couldn't be further from the truth. In crisis, and depression, there are parents that are not capable of putting the children first. There are even more that "think" that they are putting the kids first. And the sad effects of that aren't realized until years later. Parent Alienation is a huge part of that also.
I read an article years ago about that....
Essentially, it said that each child is 50% of each parent, and every time a parent bashes the other parent, they are essentially telling the child that 50 % of them is bad.
Personally, I couldn't live with myself knowing that I played a part in that. I had a rule, that I did not want a good relationship with either of my children IF I had to destroy the relationship with their Mother to get it...
My Son told me a few months back that he couldn't remember that there was ever a time that he heard me talk badly about his Mother, and considering the amount of damage that she caused, he was thankful that he didn't hear that from both of us.
Originally Posted by LH19
My children feel loved by both of us, they know that we are there for them, they have each other, and that is more than enough. Believe me it is.
Unfortunately, that might not be enough...
The conversation that I had with my Son wasn't about whether or not he felt that his Mother loved him, or wasn't there for him. It was about that he felt that she didn't know HOW to love him, and that he felt that there has been a lot of lies to cover up what really happened, and that he didn't have, and felt that she isn't capable of having anything more than a superficial relationship with him, or his Sister.
