Living with a WAW

[DW17]

Today I reached out to an attorney that a friend used for his divorce and am waiting for a response. It'll just be a consultation to make sure I'm prepared for whatever is to come. I plan on discussing custody concerns for D4, splitting finances, options for our house in the event of a divorce (buy outs, selling, renting, etc), child support/alimony info and what I should be doing now to make sure I'm protected.

That's a lot of things for a consultation, but is there anything else I should be discussing? I don't know much about the actual process for divorce and only have one friend who was in a similar situation so I'll lean on his advice as well. Never thought I'd have to think about this stuff so it's a bit of an unknown for me.

[BL42]

DW17,

It's not normal or acceptable behavior for a married woman with kids at home to regularly stay out all night closing down the bars and sleeping at other people's house, whether it really is her "girlfriends" or not - and I'm skeptical. My now-ExW stayed at her mom's house and had a friend over to hide things with OM2. Why is it your W couldn't taxi or Uber back to your house instead of her girlfriends? Sounds like BS to me.

Don't spend a second worrying about her being mad you didn't comment on her outfit or respond to her texts from the bar. She's throw barbs towards you and you just deflect and hold your head up high and be happy with life (and if, understandably you're not right now, then "fake it till you make it").

If PA really is a boundary you need to be prepared to enforce it. She's already had a PA 12 years ago and is exhibiting every sign of one now (drinking with her bar friends who were around for her previous PA, staying out all night, constantly on phone...etc.). Hate to say this, but every experienced poster on this site would be shocked if it's not already a PA. It's easy enough to confirm if you want to, but understand you said you don't want to spy/use a PI. I lived through a PA during IHS and spied and knew what was happening as it developed in real time and couldn't stop it. It was awful. But it's over now and I'm much better two years later.

[BL42]

DW17,

Good you took action on the lawyer consultation! It doesn't mean you have to take action, but having the knowledge will empower you and inform your decisions. Also, don't be afraid to meet with 2-3 to make sure you're comfortable.

In terms of the D, here are the major areas:

• Child Custody - With your biological kids being 17 & 19 this will be less of an issue for them, but I assume adopted children are the same under the law as biological? Talk to L about that.
• Child Support - Again, due to their ages your biological kids won't be a major issue but check on your adopted child. At 4yo it could be a long time (until 18yo, or 21yo in some states).
• Spousal Support - Often states have calculators based on length of marriage and disparity of income. Finding a calculator or your L should be able to give you a good idea.
• Assets - In the US states are either Equal or Equitable Distribution. Equal meaning divide everything (assets AND debts) in half, equitable meaning take your premarital assets off the table and then divide everything in half. I'm guessing because of the "high school sweetheart" status neither of you had many premarital assets.

I'd definitely talk to L about what actually makes the financial split official. If she's running up credit card bills spending on clothes, makeup, OM dinners and hotels...whatever, can you just section off accounts now or do you need to make a legal filing to cut off her debt from being on you.

[DW17]

BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home. My understanding is that I'm supposed to just say "I hope you have fun" and give her that time and space and basically ignore it. It has gotten easier to do that each week as it has lately turned less into anger and more into feeling sorry that her life has resorted to lying in bed, playing on her phone, closing out bars and sleeping on couches. We are almost 40!

My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there. I have seen some of her text messages while she was texting next to me, and it seems like the types of convos you have at the beginning of a relationship. She is all of a sudden interested in football, particularly the Bengals (AP's favorite team apparently) after having 0 interest her entire life. I have proof she was honest with some of the times she was at her friend's houses, including when I drove by, and she doesn't have a ton of other time that's unaccounted for as she usually just stays in bed on her phone at home. But I would be an idiot to assume she’s just hanging out with friends. I’ll just keep preparing for the worst and make sure I’m ready to enforce my boundary if I find out it has been crossed.

Funny side note, yesterday D4 out of the blue told W "Dad hates all of your friends." She overheard a phone conversation I had with my sister where I must have said that. W asked her to explain and she adamantly doubled down. W believed her, even though I tried to deflect and talk my way out of it, but oh well. She didn't really get mad, but did immediately start texting to I presume the friends assisting her self-destruction. I gotta watch what I say around her lol.

I lived through a PA during IHS and spied and knew what was happening as it developed in real time and couldn't stop it. It was awful. But it's over now and I'm much better two years later.

That is rough to hear man. I can’t even imagine. Maybe I’m lucky in that my PA boundary is a result of already having gone through this and telling myself never again. Easier to say than do, but I respect myself and deserve more than that. Did you ever confront your W about it or just sit back and wait for her to change?

[BL42]

DW17,

BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home.

Make sure you're there for your children and being their rock as their mother goes wild - obviously they're not her priority, and your kids deserve to be someone's priority.

My understanding is that I'm supposed to just say "I hope you have fun" and give her that time and space and basically ignore it.

Not sure I'd say "I hope you have fun", but definitely give her space - you can't stop her from going to the bars and having an affair anyway, as much as you'd like to.

My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there.

Could be. Hate to say this, but it's likely much worse than you think...or what she'll admit to, if she ever does admit to anything.

I have seen some of her text messages while she was texting next to me, and it seems like the types of convos you have at the beginning of a relationship.

My then-W would text AP in the same room as me, in my then-S4's bedroom for hours while she was "putting him to bed". She'd say "I'm texting my girlfriend". And she was...but also texting OM1! It was so blatant. Based on the texts she thought she was being slick, but it was painfully obviously. Caught up in some serious fog.

She is all of a sudden interested in football, particularly the Bengals (AP's favorite team apparently) after having 0 interest her entire life.

Funny isn't the word, because you're in a serious situation, but I did smile at this one because I came across my then-W having an NFL team's jersey she previously hated because it was OM2's team. They'll flip on a dime and many are chameleons changing colors to match the AP and make the AP feel like they're a perfect match. Google "love bombing".

I have proof she was honest with some of the times she was at her friend's houses, including when I drove by, and she doesn't have a ton of other time that's unaccounted for as she usually just stays in bed on her phone at home. But I would be an idiot to assume she’s just hanging out with friends.

Right. And you're not an idiot. You would not believe the extent they'd go to hook up. Mine did physically in the office during work hours (I have proff). Others on here are doing it in a car in an abondoned parking lot. If she's out all night regularly "staying at a friends"....

Did you ever confront your W about it or just sit back and wait for her to change

I confronted her several times about it over a few months. It took me about 12hours after BD to confirm an EA with her coworker. Lots of "talks" and pressure. I'd work up a script in my head to deliver about why we should keep the family together and work on our marriage and then deliver it. I kept giving her opportunities to come out with it. First I'd ask "Is there another guy?", then a week or two later it was "I know there's another guy" then a week or two later I'd say "I know there's another guy and this is his name". That shocked her a bit (of course I knew who it was from early on). They spent 3-4hrs on the phone the next day, assuming talking about the implications of me knowing his name and possibly contacting their work or his W. Each time then-W would lie directly to my face. When I named him she said they were just friends and had been for 10 years...funny we were together 8-9 and I'd never heard his name, and he was in her phone with his job title (like you'd type into your contacts if you met some random person). They will flat out lie and deceive you...even if you've known them for decades and you can't imagine them doing it.

Anyway, all that confronting and R talk was before I found this site. It was ill-advised. If I had to do it over I'd seriously consider packing up all her stuff and leaving it on the porch for when she got back "late from work" and serving her papers as she left work with him. That said...I can honestly tell my kids someday if they ask that I made every effort and gave ExW every opportunity to keep the family together and she decided not to. So there's that, which isn't nothing. Your bio kids are old...they know exactly what's up. Just make sure you're the best dad you can be as your W is going off the rails. Your kids (bio and adopted) deserve it.

[Mach1]

DW17,

BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable. It has been going on since I left for work in June and D17 had to play mom for D4. It's been almost every Saturday since I got home.

Make sure you're there for your children and being their rock as their mother goes wild - obviously they're not her priority, and your kids deserve to be someone's priority.

Also...

Make sure that you document the time that you are with them, and what the specifics are. Who is with them, what times and days...

Legally, if it isn't written, it didn't happen...

You may never need to use that, however it best to be safe than sorry...


I kept a calendar with who had custody on what day, then a journal of the days events if anything odd were to happen....

[Kind18]

W had most kinds of childhood trauma you can imagine. Alcoholic/drug addict parents, dad in and out of jail, kept getting sent to foster homes where she was molested, raped/molested by an uncle (who recently went to jail for murder a few weeks before W gave me BD), dad committed suicide, moved in with different aunt/uncle, with her brother. They raised her and she calls them mom/dad, had a bunch of kids in the house, brother got kicked out of the house due to being a difficult child and sent to live hours away, molested by sibling in her new home, kicked out of this home and sent hours away last year of high school, then moved in with me. She is not in contact with bio mom and talks to brother a couple times a year. Sibling who molested lives across the country. The remaining family she associates with are all good people.

I don't want to minimise her experiences (and yes you should show compassion and validate when she brings these things up), but bear in mind some middle aged women have a story of woe and horror which either didn't exist, or which is vastly exaggerated. My ex-wife had come from a family that didn't value her, teased her, caused her anorexia, didn't encourage her to go to uni, and then a string of ever worsening relationships with bad men who treated her poorly and abused her and took drugs and cheated on her.

It was all very sad and made me want to protect her even more during our 10 year marriage... right up until the point I realised most of it was made-up BS and she was a serial victim (still is today). Most of her childhood problems were actually her own, which she blamed on others.

I am truly sorry if your wife went through all of that, but perhaps be open-minded to the possibility that it's been embellished significantly. (It's also entirely possible that it's all very true, and the trauma associated which you say she has hidden, is now bubbling to the surface and fuelling MLC). As BL42 says, maybe 99% of this isn't about you - but her, her past and her trauma. Maybe take heart from that.

An update after setting a boundary with the bed. I was fully expecting W to be in a bad mood after sleeping on the couch. Everything was "fine" the next day. This roller coaster is hard to wrap my head around but I'll just keep riding it I guess.

She's an addict, and her drugs of choice are drama and arguments and checking if you're on her hook. You played it so well that she didn't get her drug fix, so there's no hangover. She's going to try again shortly for a fix from you.

Before leaving she asked my opinion of her clothes. I told her that she should wear what she wants and it's her opinion that matters, not mine. She wears a lot of black now, which is weird and different, but oh well. She got upset that I "changed" again and it's not fair that I can't decide whether to ignore her or be nice to her

And bingo, there it is - she needs her drug fix again. She is engineering an argument to prove you're an a**hole and make herself feel better about her affair.

You responded reasonably well, but your "it's your opinion that matters, not mine" probably wasn't ideal - it comes across a bit sulky. I'd have said "looks okay. By the way, I won't be home tomorrow after work. I'm going out" and then immediately leave the room.

I realize the mistake and don't intend to revert again.

This is excellent recognition and personal development.

She has made it a point to let me know where she is or what her plans are

She is doing this for one of two reasons:
1. To hide an affair, or
2. To check if you're still attached and on her hook.

Bad DB response:
1. What time will you get home? (You look weak and desperate)

Average DB response:
2. Why should I care what you do in your own time? (You're trying to act AS-IF, but comes across the opposite)

Best DB response:
3. Yeah whatever. I probably won't be home anyway. (And then take D4 to the museum, or a movie, or go camping for a day or two).

Stalking stuff - thanks for being honest. Yes, it was mistake, but you recognise it and won't do it again.

The best way to avoid stalking and worrying about her and where she is and whether she is having a PA - is to have such an awesome, busy life that you really don't give a sh*t.

Best response when she sends a picture of her with her girlfriends which may or may not be an old photo - don't comment, just send one back of you at a bar with your mates having fun!

It's not normal or acceptable behavior for a married woman with kids at home to regularly stay out all night closing down the bars and sleeping at other people's house, whether it really is her "girlfriends" or not - and I'm skeptical. My now-ExW stayed at her mom's house and had a friend over to hide things with OM2. Why is it your W couldn't taxi or Uber back to your house instead of her girlfriends? Sounds like BS to me.

Of course it's BS! But you can't control it. Why bother worrying about what may or may not be happening if you can't change it? We only get 80 laps around the sun!

Don't spend a second worrying about her being mad you didn't comment on her outfit or respond to her texts from the bar. She's throw barbs towards you and you just deflect and hold your head up high and be happy with life (and if, understandably you're not right now, then "fake it till you make it").

Perfect advice. She'll be angry no matter what, best to just accept and ignore. "Fake it until you make it" is great advice, and something that really helped me to continue acting "meh" on the outside when I was anything but on the inside.

But it's over now and I'm much better two years later.

So am I. You never read stories of men with a WW who are sad for decades. It's an acute, horrific experience - but it's only temporary, and 2-3 years and most men are okay. Now I look back and wonder what the hell I was doing trying to save my relationship. DB is all well and good, but only if your spouse is worth it. Mine, and very many, are not.

BL42 - I agree that her staying out late and coming home in the morning is completely unacceptable.

She's a grown ass adult, she can do what she wants. Not your job to fix this. Either she decides for herself it's not appropriate, or you try to show her and push her further away. Its sort of what she wants - so she can paint you as a controlling spouse. Not your circus, not your monkey.

My best guess as to the sitch with possible AP is that something physical happened between them while I was gone (That was when W was at her craziest behavior) and that they've been in an EA since then with a possible visit here and there

All these maybes and ruminating is a waste of time. Have you thought of getting a gym membership? It will keep you busy, make you feel better, help you sleep - and 9 out of 10 psychologists say hard physical exercise is better than any therapy or medication for mental health.

I'd happily wager $100 she's having a PA. But there's nothing you can do about it. Stop exhausting energy trying to analyse or catch her out. Either she wakes up and comes back, or she doesn't. Time to get busy living your own life, leave her to deal with the steaming pile of sh*t she has created.

Make sure that you document the time that you are with them, and what the specifics are. Who is with them, what times and days..

Definitely do this. Either email it to yourself frequently if she can't access your emails (so there's timestamps), or write it down in a book and date/sign each entry.

Any chance your next five posts could be exclusively about you? Your GAL activities. Your dreams/hopes/aspirations/ultimate holiday - and what you're going to do to make sure it happens! How about some physical health goals ... by xxx date i'm going to lose yyy pounds.

Have you seen "Shawshank Redemption"? You should watch it - a great story about human resilience and triumph.

My favourite quote from that movie - "Get busy living, or get busy dying". Sitting around, worrying about her, and trying to save a trainwreck that is out of your control sounds like the second option. Why don't you concentrate on option 1?

[DW17]

Kind18 - I appreciate the feedback.

I don't have a gym membership, but I've been working out most days. I have a treadmill, I go for a morning run every Saturday and I'm doing the Insanity workout videos. I do those each night after I put D to bed, which is a nice way of avoiding W until I go to bed.

I started documenting a quick recap of each day and what I did with the kids yesterday. That was great advice. I'm going to keep it at work to avoid any issues.

Funny you mention Shawshank Redemption. It's my all-time favorite movie!

GAL has been a little harder than I thought it'd be so far. Exercising at home is probably not ideal, but it’s working. I’ve been exercising and eating well most of the year. In January I was the heaviest I’ve ever been so the changes started then, months before BD. Right now I’m the fittest I’ve been since high school and I’m down 70 pounds this year. I want to finish up this Insanity workout and then join a Cross Fit gym.

I’ve been trying to plan at least one activity with friends and one with the kids each weekend. I take D4 to the park a few times a week and generally try to stay out of the house on weekends. I made sure I was gone last Sunday before W came home in the morning and was able to stay occupied most of the day. I’ve joined a supporters group for a sports team and plan to attend their events for watching games. I’ve reached out to some friends/coworkers about doing things, but nothing is set in stone yet. Saturday is D17’s birthday so I don’t know that I’ll plan anything for that night, but I want to have Sunday filled with something. I’m bad at planning how to ….well GAL I guess. W was always the one that planned stuff like that, so it’s a little foreign to me, and probably part of what led to my lost identity. That will be one of my biggest focal points moving forward.

And yes, I’ll try and focus my next few posts on myself rather than W. I think most everything in my sitch has been laid out now in the previous posts, so I guess it’s time to start focusing on me and what I’m going to do to make myself better.

[DW17]

Any chance your next five posts could be exclusively about you? Your GAL activities. Your dreams/hopes/aspirations/ultimate holiday - and what you're going to do to make sure it happens! How about some physical health goals ... by xxx date i'm going to lose yyy pounds.

I've been setting some health goals for most of this year, but my current one is to finish up the Insanity workout series I've been doing (A little over a month left) and to lose 10 more pounds by the end of October. After that, I’d like to either join a Cross Fit gym or get into running a lot more.

My dreams/hopes/aspirations are difficult at the moment. Trying to figure everything out for D18 to go to college next year with the uncertainty with my M has been stressful but I’ve just been plugging away as if things will work themselves out. So I hope that D18 gets into a college that she likes. I hope that separating finances with W allows me the freedom to buy what I want, save money as I see fit and do things that I previously declined to do while trying to make the best financial decisions for my family. I’d like to go to some concerts. I’d like to spend a lot more time with people that I disconnected myself from throughout my M (I have reached out to several and have some things in the works). I aspire to be the best father I can be and help guide my youngest through her development in a much better way than I did for the older two. I hope to be the rock of support, especially emotionally, that S19 and D18 did not get from me for a large part of their lives.

I’ve always dreamed of traveling to a bunch of places, but I guess I convinced myself along the way that it would never happen. I tried for 3 years to become 100% debt free aside from my mortgage to be able to save money for college/travel/etc. W has always been unwilling to sacrifice for that dream and when she couldn’t even sacrifice this year to even make sure D18 had a path toward her future, I think I knew my dream of traveling would never happen. The whole reason I traveled for work earlier this year was to set us up financially to help D18 with college. But that plan went to hell, the money I saved went up in smoke when BD happened and I’m forging a new path ahead. But yeah, sorry for the sidetrack, but I do dream of traveling.

[BL42]

DW17,

Exercising at home is probably not ideal, but it’s working. I’ve been exercising and eating well most of the year. In January I was the heaviest I’ve ever been so the changes started then, months before BD. Right now I’m the fittest I’ve been since high school and I’m down 70 pounds this year. I want to finish up this Insanity workout and then join a Cross Fit gym.

Working out at a Cross Fit gym would definitely be more social, but good for you for doing it by yourself at home in the meantime. Well done on the 70 pounds! That's incredible. Your biggest challenge going forward is going to be sustaining that routine and improvements. There are plenty of people who came to this forum and lost significant weight on the BD/D diet only to gain it back in a year or two. Be the person who commits to this new healthy eating and regular exercise lifetime to make it a permanent change!

I’ve been trying to plan at least one activity with friends and one with the kids each weekend. I take D4 to the park a few times a week and generally try to stay out of the house on weekends.

Awesome! Friends and kids. Good stuff.

I made sure I was gone last Sunday before W came home in the morning and was able to stay occupied most of the day.

Perfect. You certainly don't need to be around to witness her "walk of shame".

I’ve joined a supporters group for a sports team and plan to attend their events for watching games.

Nice. Great idea.

I’ve reached out to some friends/coworkers about doing things, but nothing is set in stone yet.

It can be tough at first. People have their families and routines and lives. But good for you for reaching out. As you start to get some momentum new plans will begin to materialize.

I’m bad at planning how to ….well GAL I guess. W was always the one that planned stuff like that, so it’s a little foreign to me, and probably part of what led to my lost identity. That will be one of my biggest focal points moving forward.

I hear you. You're not alone there. Time to flex that muscle and get busy!

I hope that separating finances with W allows me the freedom to buy what I want, save money as I see fit and do things that I previously declined to do while trying to make the best financial decisions for my family.

I tried for 3 years to become 100% debt free aside from my mortgage to be able to save money for college/travel/etc. W has always been unwilling to sacrifice for that dream

If you're a saver and she's a spender, I think you'll find post-financial separation you're doing quite fine on your own. Even with the exorbitant check I write ExW each month - think second mortgage, despite me spending more time with the kids than her - I have no trouble saving and investing as much if not more than I did while we were married on my sole income. All of a sudden the multiple Amazon boxes each day stopped arriving and the credit card and target bills plummeted! I even joined a country club and hired a house cleaner and am fine. I never wanted divorce, but the freedom to do it your way can be a plus.

I’d like to go to some concerts.

Go! Even if it's by yourself.

I aspire to be the best father I can be and help guide my youngest through her development in a much better way than I did for the older two. I hope to be the rock of support, especially emotionally, that S19 and D18 did not get from me for a large part of their lives.

You can't change the past, but you can be a better father going forward. Make the change now.

sorry for the sidetrack, but I do dream of traveling.

Then do it! Even if it's by yourself...or take the kids! Experiences > things.