Stuck in limbo

[BL42]

Doug54,

OTOH, do I want to be treading water for eons rather than getting this show on the road and meeting a better partner at some point?

But I don't think I have the patience to "stand" for too long in an emotionally lacking marriage.

Have you seen the phrase "it's a marathon, not a sprint"? The most likely case is any turn around is going to take a LONG time, not turn on a dime. You need to steel your resolve or you're unlikely to be successful.

Did you mean you would not want to be the one deciding on separation? That sort of makes more sense, and is probably something I could live with. Let her be the bad guy who broke up the family.

Correct, that's what I meant. Excuse the typo. If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.

To your point, since I joined the forum, I have been foaming at the mouth a little over boundaries and respect regarding W merrily forging ahead, texting her EA partner with impunity, with no reverence for the institution of marriage. I'm seemingly vacillating between "Yeah, I hope to save things" and "I'm out! I'm done!

It's natural to vacillate. You have a lot of emotions to process. It's going to take a long time and you'll have ups and downs. Be wary of wishing to pull the plug quickly - you may regret it. Take time to work through what you really want. You likely feel anxious and want a result but work on patience; there's no rush.

Though since I've started detaching, she's sought me out more to ask what's going on, am I mad? I don't know if emotionally available Doug54 would elicit the same reaction.

When the LBS clings on for ear life and smoothers the WS/WAS it causes them to run in the other direction. If you detach, keep your head up, smile and gone on to live your life they sometimes start to wonder if they're making the right choice...

[LH19]

If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.

So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?

[Valeska19]

If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.

So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?

I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.

[LH19]

If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.

So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?

I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.

So in regards to your values do you have boundaries? Or is it death to we part no matter what?

[Traveler]

Thanks, Peter. So, my IC suggested I ask W to go to MC for "clarity" even if it wasn't to be restorative. In hindsight, maybe a boneheaded move from someone who only meant well. Obviously, he isn't familiar with Divorcebusting.

Well, MC is boneheaded if your goal is to save your marriage and her goal is otherwise. In my MC, the therapist laid out relationship-supportive options <a>, <b>, <c> in our first session and my ex agreed to <c>, then changed her mind afterward. A session or two later the MC mentioned not-relationship-supportive option <d> and proposed I had problem <x> and she had problem <y>. That was our last session. For a long time, her narrative was the therapist validated <d> was the right path and that I had a problem with <x>. We later reconciled for awhile, but that MC was no help along the path.

[Valeska19]

If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.

So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?

I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.

So in regards to your values do you have boundaries? Or is it death to we part no matter what?

Absolutely I do... Letting someone go is about boundaries...and can also be a very loving decision for both of you. You can do that AND honor your vows/values.

P.S. I haven't heard "till death do us part" in a long time. Most of the weddings I attend people write their own vows and do NOT recite what was given by the church.

[LH19]

[quote=BL42] If ExW wanted separation/divorce I could not stop her, but I was not going to let her actions be an excuse for me to break my vows. It's not about positioning her to be the bad guy, yet getting the result you want; it's about standing up with integrity to do what was right for me and my kids and honoring the vow I made. We can't control what are spouse does - hence I'm divorced - but we can choose to act with integrity and do the right thing regardless.

So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values? If you married again will you have any boundaries?

I won't answer for BL but for me my vows and values are one in the same.

So in regards to your values do you have boundaries? Or is it death to we part no matter what?

Absolutely I do... Letting someone go is about boundaries...and can also be a very loving decision for both of you. You can do that AND honor your vows/values.

P.S. I haven't heard "till death do us part" in a long time. Most of the weddings I attend people write their own vows and do NOT recite what was given by the church.

.
So we agree. My point was BL made it sound like his W could do anything and he wouldn't divorce her because of his vows. IMO you must have boundaries that your partner cannot cross in a relationship/marriage.

[Elbereth]

Hi Doug,

I'm so sorry you are going through this. You've been getting a lot of great advice so far, so I won't add much in that regard. But I thought I'd comment on the marriage vows part as that was something I struggled with as well. My quick story is my XH had EA that turned to PA, MLC, and left me and is living with OW now. Raised his two kids as my own. Divorce recently finalized.

When it came to my values and my vows, I did try to do what I could to save the marriage because I held my commitment to that in high regard. However, with the situation as it was, I made an effort to ask for the opportunity to reconcile (without R talk pressure) a few times, asked for him to end his AF, and I refused to be the one to file for the divorce or help him with the process. So there I stood up for my values. For me, the only choices I had were to move on from the MR or to remain in a relationship with him and his AP. Part of that was I could never be in a MR of three, but part of that is that he was stealing money and I needed to protect my share of our assets. My ethics told me that accepting the D was the best way to live out my core values. I can sleep at night knowing that I tried, in the ways I could, but it takes two to make that process work. My XH refused. And hell, we did a Gottman retreat only a few months before he started his AF....so I agree, MC doesn't work in most cases.

The thing with the MLC part is also that the whole process takes a long time (if it ever resolves). And honestly, I am no longer feeling that I would want my XH back after all the deceit and his covert narcissistic behavior. Maybe it is mostly his MLC personality, but unfortunately, as time goes on, I struggle to know if the person I married was the person I knew. My IC and I both feel that my XH will turn around at some point and try to come back (hell, I did everything for him, so I would miss me too! hahah). But if I wanted to try again, it would be a whole new R anyway, so knowing that I still accepted the D. The D is a way to protect yourself legally. If you wanted to stand for her, you can still stand...and be divorced.

Anyway, I hope that provides more food for thought. You do sound a lot stronger than I was at the beginning of my journey. You are doing a lot of things right already, so just keep moving forward day by day. The folks on this site are amazing! I am not sure what I would have done without this forum!

El

[greenman]

Doug,

I feel your pain man. I would have done anything to hold the family together. Emails about all the things I did wrong, tattoos, working out, partying, lacking career goals (my fault), telling me I should move out. Wanting body improvements done, which I shut down thankfully. Worst 3 years of my life and I am just now on the other side. MLC/WAW in the end its the same. She is not into you right now and you need to really focus on yourself and the kids. Be stronger than I was. This will be a long haul and probably won't work out like you think you want now. Do what you have to do, but never give into fear and thinking your decisions will change your W.

I did not leave but did shared nest for a while. Alternating weeks. While this seemed best for the kids and finances, it was really best for the W to keep doing and spending as desired. It was painful in general and while I had sex and such with W at times, I did not detach very well. I recommend at a minimum unfollow on social, but also recommend getting off if you keep looking at her stuff. Getting off social helped me. Once we started living completely separate, things started sinking in more. It is going to take a while man, but the faster you can focus on yourself the better chance you have in all scenarios.

Wife brought up MC shortly before D, but it was clear her goal was different than mine and mostly checking a box that we did it. It was too late, W didn't want to work on the marriage. She never really did once she left, so no chance.

I could have done some things better D-b ing. Like never reacting out of anger no matter how much you want to. Its tough and IC can help for sure. I just couldn't get past things enough and she couldn't either.

In the end you just have to be good with what you did for you and the kids and maybe it works and maybe you move on.

Stay strong.

[BL42]

LH19,

So BL do you believe that no matter what a spouse does you need to honor your vows? Don't you think it might be better to honor your values? Is sharing your W with another man part of your values?

What was important to me was to be able to know in my head & heart - and be able to honestly tell my children someday - that I stood up and did everything I could to save my marriage and keep our family together. I did honor my vows.

Imo, there was nothing in our marriage which couldn't have been fixed or worked out if both of us tried. And as soon as I knew there was anything seriously wrong I TRIED. That included offering to work things out after the affair with OM1 ended in order to keep our family together. It also included me not even attempting to date until well after the D was legally finalized, even though she had moved OM2 in with her soon after moving out.

But...I can say for certain I acted with integrity, stood up for my marriage and family, and can honestly tell my children that someday. That was important to me.

My point was BL made it sound like his W could do anything and he wouldn't divorce her because of his vows. IMO you must have boundaries that your partner cannot cross in a relationship/marriage.

Now, to your point, is there ANY boundary that would cause me to pull the trigger? Some stories where the LBS is waiting 5-10 years with multiple affairs and drug/alcohol abuse and destroyed financials? Maybe I wouldn't have had the resolve to put up with that. And maybe I shouldn't. But I wasn't tested that way. I don't know how to quantify that line. My now-ExW went full steam ahead with the separation/OM2/divorce, and did not (at least from what I saw) waiver one bit. So who knows what I would've decided if it dragged on a decade. That she did go full steam ahead and didn't waiver still blows my mind a bit because honest to god our relationship was not so bad. I know my viewpoint is common and obviously she disagreed but we had it pretty good, so sometimes I feel embarrassed or inadequate that I'm divorced, but just as often I'm comforted a bit knowing it really was her own journey and not nearly as much related to me.

If you married again will you have any boundaries?

I'm not sure if I would get married again. I certainly wouldn't put up with such post-BD BS again in an LTR. Part of my stance was due to young kids, though I realize that wasn't a clause in the vows ("I DO...if we have young kids").

P.S. I haven't heard "till death do us part" in a long time. Most of the weddings I attend people write their own vows and do NOT recite what was given by the church.

We did say "till death do us part", and I meant it. Even before DB/separation/divorce I remember having debates with friends who didn't take marriage as seriously as me and thought if you're not happy after 10 years it should be an option to renew or end it, which I thought was ludicrous. Now I suppose you could argue that technically neither of us are dead so I'm still bound by that vow, but my conscientious is clear that I stood until she actually did divorce me legally, so I think it's a fair stance for me to say that her action there absolves me of my vow.


Now...how does all that related to Doug54? He's mentioned a few times he's already ready to move on. If he's saying that just a few months in, what chance do they have? Maybe if he stands he won't have a chance to R, because ultimately it's up to his W. But if both of them move on it's way less likely they'll R. Now, to me, two decades of relationship and 3 children (plus two step children he's been a major influence in) says they owe the kids and themselves to work on it. Ultimately it's up to Doug54 to decide what actions are right for him and his children. But if I were him I'd dig down deep, consider his core beliefs, and be true to himself for his sake and his kids...all knowing it's ultimately not just up to him, and may not be in his control.