Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3)

[Traveler]

Ready2Change nailed it--solid ideas to be more attractive to your wife and other women.

[PeterB]

You are not at piecing. You are still at the busting phase.

Yes for sure. Just that she has told me things like "you need to figure out how to repair this relationship". I have taken this as coming out of confusion rather than an intention and then a decision to repair.

How much more attractive (to women in general) are you than when you first arrived here? Are you skilled in new ways of interacting with women?

Pre-marriage I used to do quite well with girls. Of course after marriage I considered myself entirely taken. In the current situation I might be attractive because I am focusing on myself and feel confident. However, I don't know for sure because I don't have much opportunity to interact with new women. The women at work don't count and I have not been hitting on girls at the gym or while solo travelling.

Can you be specific?

One example is in my first comment in this response. Another example: "even if we stay in this marriage I won't be the same again".

How good were you at listening and validating?

I have been good imho. The 2nd last discussion did not go very well and I thought I talked too much. She had forced that discussion and clearly told me to speak more. My short validating sentences do have the intended effect imho but she wants more talk. One thing I told her (in response to a statement that after divorce so many "couples" take joint vacations) is that I won't be doing that - our interactions will be limited to necessary issues related to our son. Not talking about post-divorce situation was a boundary that I had strictly enforced until now (I consider it a waste of time) but taking a cue from SteveLW, I used this opportunity to poke her post-divorce bubble a bit.

You listen to her. You do not reveal your cards. Have you read through my quote threads...I know this has been discussed before and there were lots of good insights.

Your quote thread is invaluable. I used to use it even as random light reading. Any specific ones you recommend?

Be the rock and a safe place for her to vent her anger.

Very interesting. I did not see it this way and I wanted to stay clear of her negativity. Will have to use this perspective.

[PeterB]

One thing she keeps telling me is - 'I do not trust you at all'. Little does she know that the feeling is mutual.

A place to truth dart "reverse babble" her "I understand the lack of trust". One of Coaches tactics that helped get his wife back. I believe this may be used sparingly. The goal is to reduce her resentment. not fuel it.

Can you explain what is a 'truth dart' and 'reverse babble'? The statement - "I understand the lack of trust" sounds like validation, which is something I am already doing.

"you are just an option for me" in front of my son.

There are so many ways to respond to this. One of my mantras "The one who reacts emotionally first looses". I would flips this and use humor with a "Don't be so sure". Definitely with a twinkle in my eye. You are a man with options and you are vetting her.

I had responded - "I am not going to be an option" (note, no humor). She ended up saying "you are so full of yourself" .

I had told her several times not to bring up this topic in front of my son but she repeatedly does it - basically no regard at all for what I said. I enforced my boundary and left the space.

Telling her how to behave is controlling behavior. Do more work in this area.

Let me correct myself. The exact words I use are, "I am not going to discuss this topic in front of our son". I never told her to check her words.

"you are not owning up to your problems"

Can you come up with a good response?

I answered to this as - I have owned up to my own issues and my mistakes - I know I have made many. You asked me this many times and I have answered it similarly every time. So, I am probably not going to respond again (this last bit because I think she is deliberately trying to insult/annoy me by saying it repeatedly - a pattern she consistently demonstrated through the years).

[PeterB]

The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your son, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

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In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

How do you convince her of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.

This has to be one of the great posts on DB forum. It should be archived. Thanks for summarizing pretty much every aspect of DB.

she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed...

She does not believe I have changed permanently.

...and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

She has apparently realized I am doing it for myself rather than for her. She appears quite agitated about it ("... but you are making changes for yourself not for me").

[BL42]

You are not at piecing. You are still at the busting phase.

Yes for sure. Just that she has told me things like "you need to figure out how to repair this relationship". I have taken this as coming out of confusion rather than an intention and then a decision to repair.

Remember to believe nothing she says. Actions over words. She's likely confused or conflicted herself, or it might be a manipulation to keep you hooked. Keep working on yourself...attraction, interactions, physical appearance...etc.[/quote]

she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed...

She does not believe I have changed permanently.

This is not something she's going to believe overnight. You have to dedicate yourself to making changes over the long haul. 10 years of the same behavior vs. a couple weeks or months of the new behavior...it takes time.

...and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

She has apparently realized I am doing it for myself rather than for her. She appears quite agitated about it ("... but you are making changes for yourself not for me").

The best way to ensure your changes are permanent to to authentically want them for yourself. If you're doing it for others more likely it won't last. Don't worry about whether she says she thinks they're for you or her - you change for you and sustain those changes.

[Ready2Change]

Can you explain what is a 'truth dart' and 'reverse babble'? The statement - "I understand the lack of trust" sounds like validation, which is something I am already doing.

Reverse babble uses their words in your response.
Truth darts are short responses that clarify your version of the truth.

I did a little digging trying to find coaches original posts, but they are now well over 10 years old and may have been purged. A few examples:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842981#Post2842981

Reverse Babble Pattern (Coach)
"I can't trust you" respond "I understand the lack of trust."
"I was ready to come back until this happened" respond "I can see how me knowing what I know would change your plans."
Other wise responses:
"You made me do it" respond "No, I don't control your actions this is your mess."
"We are just friends" respond "Please don't take me for a fool, we both know better."
"You are running around" Respond "No wife, I am actually very focused and another woman is the last thing I want now."
When in doubt say nothing or "I am thinking about what you said."

[Ready2Change]

Let me correct myself. The exact words I use are, "I am not going to discuss this topic in front of our son". I never told her to check her words.

Thanks for clarifying. This was a perfect response.

[Kind18]

you are just an option for me

I don’t know why you persist with this woman.

You are openly admitting that because she got dumped, she’s testing the waters with you. You seem like a great guy Peter. Do you want to be her backup plan? Her sloppy seconds? Don’t you deserve an amazing, committed and trustworthy partner?

When my ex got dumped by her AP and started being nice, I’d already realised what a good person I was and that I deserved much more than what a cheating, lazy, angry woman could ever offer. I ignored her and kept living my own awesome life.

I think for you to consider reconciling at any point in the future, she’d have to fall to her knees and beg for forgiveness and own all of her poor behaviour. Until this happens, I think you should just ignore her completely and GAL like a boss. Don’t dip your toe in to test the waters, don’t entertain her angry outbursts, or have any discussions at all.

This is how the cycle works - she says she wants to talk, you talk and have an argument where she says it’s all your fault, she thinks “I’ve still got him on the hook”, and so she’ll head off and start looking for OM2. She has zero motivation at this point to get her sh*t together because you’re still there.

You need to break this cycle. The only way to do that is to stop interacting, stop discussing, stop showing interest, and build your own new life FOR YOU. Every time you have a discussion/talk/argument - she wins.

Accept that it’s done, start again and rebuild yourself new. If she wakes up and wants for be a part of it - maybe in a few years, when she proves herself worthy - maybe.

But if she doesn’t (which is most likely) you’re already well down the road to your new life and haven’t wasted years waiting for her to wake up.

I honestly think you’re worth so much more than either you or her realise.

[PeterB]

you are just an option for me

I don’t know why you persist with this woman.

I don't know either. I think I have to take on a counselor.

Don’t you deserve an amazing, committed and trustworthy partner?

I certainly do. I am mentally preparing to live without her in my life but I don't know if I will find someone else. I will be really scared to commit after what I went through.

When my ex got dumped by her AP and started being nice, I’d already realised what a good person I was and that I deserved much more than what a cheating, lazy, angry woman could ever offer. I ignored her and kept living my own awesome life.

You did awesome. Right now she is an angry, off the rails woman and otoh I am feeling great about myself. I have not got into a fight or showed any anger/annoyance at her in the last 4 months so my efforts at personal improvement are fruitful. I sometimes feel that piecing with her (if it comes to that) would be a huge mistake.

Don’t dip your toe in to test the waters, don’t entertain her angry outbursts, or have any discussions at all.

I already told her that because of the way the previous discussion went I will be unable to discuss our R with her anymore. It did not go down well but I ignored.

I honestly think you’re worth so much more than either you or her realise.

Thanks for your kind words.

[LH19]

you are just an option for me

I don’t know why you persist with this woman.[/quote]

I don't know either. I think I have to take on a counselor.

Peter wha you are doing is normal. You married your W for a reason. You started a family for a reason. It is normal not to want to lose what you had. I am guessing at one point your W was a good partner? My guess is you are hoping that someday she could be that partner again? This can happen again but unfortunately it takes way longer than people want and can handle. Right now your W is not happy and is 100% convinced that you are standing in the way of her happiness. She has to figure it out for herself whether that is true or not. The best way to help that along is to give her as much time and space as you possibly can. You can never give too much space in these situations.

I certainly do. I am mentally preparing to live without her in my life but I don't know if I will find someone else. I will be really scared to commit after what I went through.

This will change down the road. Lot's of really good faithful women out there. The key is to become great on your own first.

You did awesome. Right now she is an angry, off the rails woman and otoh I am feeling great about myself. I have not got into a fight or showed any anger/annoyance at her in the last 4 months so my efforts at personal improvement are fruitful. I sometimes feel that piecing with her (if it comes to that) would be a huge mistake.

Maybe and maybe not. It depends on her attitude and her motivation for piecing.

I already told her that because of the way the previous discussion went I will be unable to discuss our R with her anymore. It did not go down well but I ignored.

No more talking and more GAL. Peter I like you but I get the sense you can come off as controlling and condescending at times.

I honestly think you’re worth so much more than either you or her realise.

Agreed in unfortunately in these situations she is probably going to have to learn that the hard way.