Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date....I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.
Originally Posted by R2C
Then you still have more personal growth work to do.
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
In what sense?
Something out of your control is taking a toll on you internally. It is something you can reflect on and see if there are changes to your behavior, belief system, thought process etc. that can change how it is affecting you.
The reason I ask, is it feels like telling the victim in the torture chamber he has work to do because he can't handle it.
I get what you are saying though, it's just that some days I'm not strong enough, other days, I manage well. It comes down to fear of her projecting some devious plan to conflate the D. In IC we talked about that and we discussed I need to be patient, and chill. I have the right legal process in play, let it's follow the course.
Well, the last two weeks have been probably the worse to date....I don't react, but internally it's taking a toll.
Originally Posted by R2C
Then you still have more personal growth work to do.
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
In what sense?
Something out of your control is taking a toll on you internally. It is something you can reflect on and see if there are changes to your behavior, belief system, thought process etc. that can change how it is affecting you.
The reason I ask, is it feels like telling the victim in the torture chamber he has work to do because he can't handle it.
Did you watch any Peter Crone videos yet? You may find his philosophies helpful on this subject. There are lengthy (2hrs?) interviews of him by Kerwin Rae and Dr Rangan Chatterjee another post recommended and I found enlightening.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
toughtimes, I get what you are saying. Sometimes the advice here seems counter-intuitive.
"My STBXW is making my life miserable!" "Oh, sounds like you have more personal growth to make."
But that is the point of DBing. Counter-intuitively controlling what you can, and letting go of what you cannot. That was my biggest learning through my own situation. Learning that there was nothing I could do to alter her behavior, but I could learn to control my reaction and feelings towards what she was doing. But I have to say, once you get to a place where you let things roll off your back like water off of a duck, it applies to so many different areas of your life! It helps you cope with that difficult coworker. With jerks on the road. With trolls on the internet. Etc.
If you can get to a place where her words and actions have little to no effect on your psyche and feelings, since she was at one time the biggest part of your life, then the rest of the people you come into contact with will have absolutely no impact on you no matter how poorly behaved they are!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
If you can get to a place where her words and actions have little to no effect on your psyche and feelings, since she was at one time the biggest part of your life, then the rest of the people you come into contact with will have absolutely no impact on you no matter how poorly behaved they are!
I'm like 85% the way there. Compared to BD1 where I was like 5% lol It's true, survive this, and everything after will be piss easy.
She pulled another trick, applied for child support just before my trip. I had to spend two hours out of my work day with the agency to create an account. I discovered, of course, the information she provides wasn't correct. So there will now be a dispute process I have to follow. The process didn't upset me but it was an annoying distraction. I did learn thought that in IHS, she'll end up with practically nothing anyway.
On the plus side, I'm looking at 2 weeks free of narcissistic abuse.
@BL42, So I've listened to three of Peter Crone's long videos. I've had the time, since I've had a long flight to North America, and now I'm quarantined in a hotel due to COVID
I have to say, he has an interesting viewpoint, a combination of acceptance and CBT. I looked up his bio and he pretty much says that those are is methods.
What I like is is views on problems (you don't have any), resistance is just fighting what is, and what has happened was meant to be, that is why it happened. The most powerful insight I liked, was how a simple perception limits our ability to perform. I heard him three times walk through the concept with a podcast host by stating what does it look like if X doesn't matter and what does it feel like to not have to worry about X. I think he has a knack for doing this, where a typical psychologist will just take a lot longer to get there.
This sort of ties in to what I've been telling myself about viewing my upcoming D as a blessing. But I see what you mean about accepting the screwed up sitch of my D process and STBXW behavior. I think it's the fear of the unknown future, and the fear I can't get rid of her control. Which is not true at all.
Thanks for the tip, I'll continue to listen to some more as I have another 24-hours locked away in a hotel.
toughtimes, fear is insidious. It keeps us stuck, it keeps us paralyzed, and the worst part: it causes us to bring about that which we fear most!
Fear of the unknown is very common and best worked through in IC. But learning to know that you will adapt and be okay no matter what is the key. But the fear of that you cannot get rid of her control is dangerous (see the third point above). She only has the control over you that you give to her. Lots of LBSs come where with manipulators for WASs, and it is frustrating at times because the simple truth of the matter is that the WAS only has the control that the LBS allows them to have.
You've got this! You're going to be fine no matter what the future holds, and you are in control of you! She is not. Remember that.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
If I could give LBS one bit of advice it would be to embrace the journey and embrace the unknown. It is so much better than the hell you are leaving behind.
I'm about to embark on my next journey. I'm flying home after visiting my family with D11 and S8. During my trip, STBXW took most of our savings and locked the rest by requiring dual signatures. My L had ripped into her with a scathing letter, demanding the funds are returned or else court. I won't know the answer until I land. I will need to borrow money to move out since I have access to very little cash. But I planned for this, I already lined up a loan.
The adventure is that she agreed to sign Parenting Plan, so that is my ticket out. My goal is in 30 days to be in my own place with access to my kids. $ and legal issues aside, I farking can't wait.
No matter how this escalates, I don't have fear. Nervous, yeah, a little. Fearful? No. The prize is my life in 2024. My family are more frightened than me.
The more I understand narcassism and her sickness, the more I realise a lot of what I thought was me, wasn't. The power is that she has no more over me, and I have a clarity that I've never had before.
I'll be free, she never will.
The trip was a success. I've bonded with my family in a way that I never did before. It was my choice to do it, and I'm pleased with the outcome. This was because I had no fear to confront the past.
toughtimes180, Not sure I love the tone of "can't freaking wait"...we are here to save marriages after all. Are you doing anything to become a better husband?
I appreciate this board is all about saving the marriage and I came here to do just that. However since BD2, I've come to the realization that she's a narcissist, and there has been a lot of abuse during the M as well as post BD1 and BD2. I've decided to help D along on my terms and in that regard, now, I have no desire to save M or to be a better H. It's about a better TT180 as a person and TT180 as a better father.
I know this does go against the ethos of this board, but I believe that not all M should be saved. I see this board is about being the best partner, as H, ExH, or as a future H with a priority to save the M, but it seems not always.
In terms of DB, it's minimal because there is minimal contact. I'll be lucky to validate once or twice a week. It's not that it's a hostile environment, it's not. We're just raising the kids, and keeping conversations to just the kids. All D stuff is by email only. She's throwing everything she's got at frustrating the sitch by email, and I'm always keeping cool.
So, yeah, I freaking can't wait to move out, clear the air, and focus on me without interference.
If STBXW came to me a year from now to get together it'll be no. No, because it would be an attempt to love bomb. No, because of what she is (a narcissist) and will never change. No because I have no desire to be her primary supply again. I've never been so sure of this as now.
So not everyone will like my tone and optimism about D, but let me put it this way. Two friends have said I'm the happiest they've ever seen me, dispite recent events. So that says something.
I feel I was a bit too strong here. All M should try to be saved as per DB principles. But sometimes you find it cannot be saved or should not by saved. That is how I see my sitch. The M cannot be saved.
Not sure I love the tone of "can't freaking wait"...we are here to save marriages after all. Are you doing anything to become a better husband?
BL I hear what you are saying but the fact of the matter is most of these marriages can’t and shouldn’t be saved mainly because the motivations of the WS. I would rather see a LBS excited about the future than wallowing in their misery.
Not sure I love the tone of "can't freaking wait"...we are here to save marriages after all. Are you doing anything to become a better husband?
BL I hear what you are saying but the fact of the matter is most of these marriages can’t and shouldn’t be saved mainly because the motivations of the WS. I would rather see a LBS excited about the future than wallowing in their misery.
I completely agree with what you said above, just got the sense lately that toughtimes180 is more interested in writing off his W as a narcissist and reveling in leaving than honest self reflection. Maybe I'm off base there, but my comment was meant as a challenge to look inward and consider the areas he needs to improve...no matter what happens with the relationship.
toughtimes180,
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
It's about a better TT180 as a person and TT180 as a better father.
What are you doing to be a better person and father? Also...what about a better partner (for current or future people)?
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
I understand where you are all going with this. It's true, separation and divorce brings out different behaviours. I believe this is called a personality trap or something. And yeah, we all have narcs at the end.
My contribution to my sitch is avoidance. If I didn't avoid her behaviour from the start, and valued myself, what would it look like? I dunno, maybe she'd behave better, maybe I'd see her true colours early on, and not have spent 12 years in an unsatisfying relationship. That is my work, to accept myself, to learn to live with myself, and to ensure I am not afraid of conflict.
Why am I sure she's a narc? So many behaviours point to her as covert. Even early on, she wasn't empathetic to me, or put in the emotional effort I needed. I know this maybe rewriting history, there were some great times. But it never felt like a true, equal partnership. I was the co-dependant who gave her heaps of supply.
How am I being a better father? By actively spending time with them, by fighting for a parenting plan that allows me to be the safe place for them, by validating their emotions in a way that STBNEX doesn't. By involving them in the realities of two homes when she keeps them in the dark. By going beyond what is required in the Parenting Plan when she complains it's too hard. This board showed me to reframe her selfish time as more time with kids. And I am.
I'm not saying I'm blameless. Far from it. I allowed her to treat me like crap for over a decade. I avoided conflict. I'm in IC to work through the now, and to eventually work on how to be a better partner in the future.
The reality is, she walked out on therapy when things got too vulnerable. When she reframed and blamed me in therapy, and got caught out from it.
Despite the hell she is putting me through, I'm weeks away from freedom. My overseas trip showed how peaceful and different parenting is with just me. And whilst I'm sad at the reduced time with D1, I know that ex needs me to have more D1 time in the future, and I'll be there.
In any event, I have a clarity about my future like never before, and that is why it's freaking awesome. Rather than be depressed that she's wanting to take away my kids, screw me on finances, and want me to always be there for her, I'm happy. I accept that the next few months are tough, I know I won't die, I plowed through and got a good position on the kids, I have a great L who is keeping things on track, and the kids seem excited on decorating a new room in a new home.
DB principles saved the M the first time, but saved me the second time.
Incidentally, narcs may be 4%, but they can't keep relationships. I wonder if this board sees a higher proportion of narcs for that reason. I've not seen much here to address the uniqueness of narcassim, I've sought that support elsewhere. But I have to think for those who truely have that sort of personality disorder, DB can't help them or the M.
Day 25 of new life out of the house. Hard, but rewarding. The alone time is gold. Long hours to compensate for D1 custody time during work hours. Kids adjusting to two houses. The most quality time with my kids I've ever had.
I got the money back, nex reported my lawyer for "bullying" after I attempted presettlement due to no access to cash (she locked me out). Nex made an outrageous financial offer, abuses me in email daily, claims she's poor and dropped her lawyer, verbally screamed at me in front of the kids, smears me in front of S9, and now is attempting to impede on my custody days demanding to see the children every day.
It doesn't stop with these narcs. I'm preparing a strategy with my lawyer to get consent orders in order to have real boundaries and consequences for nex.
To top it off, I found out my first ex left her 9 year abusive marriage to a narc. We now talk weekly as friends after no contact for 13 years. Given we have a lot in common.
I've stopped all db techniques and have adopted grey rock. Absolute minimal contact as required, zero validation or emotion. I guess that's going dark minus the validation and empathy.
The house goes on the market in a fortnight, and I'm about to send a sensible counter offer. I'm preparing for the absolute worst of behaviour when she receives it.
To top it off, I found out my first ex left her 9 year abusive marriage to a narc. We now talk weekly as friends after no contact for 13 years. Given we have a lot in common.
So it's interesting that narcs make up less than 4% of the population but apparently every LBS married one.
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I've stopped all db techniques and have adopted grey rock.
So no more 180s, working on yourself, GAL, Detachment etc?
Long hours to compensate for D1 custody time during work hours.
What is the custody agreement?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Kids adjusting to two houses.
Are they upset about the split? Any emotions around that?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
The most quality time with my kids I've ever had.
Were you not involved before?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I got the money back
Good. The financials will work themselves out over time with a good lawyer.
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Nex
Nex = ? "Now Ex"?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
claims she's poor and dropped her lawyer
Dropping her L won't serve her well...
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
verbally screamed at me in front of the kids, smears me in front of S9, and now is attempting to impede on my custody days demanding to see the children every day.
Are you documenting / recording this?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
It doesn't stop with these narcs. I'm preparing a strategy with my lawyer to get consent orders in order to have real boundaries and consequences for nex.
What are consent orders? Is that an Australia thing?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
To top it off, I found out my first ex left her 9 year abusive marriage to a narc. We now talk weekly as friends after no contact for 13 years. Given we have a lot in common.
You got back in touch with a former W/GF before you're even divorced? Not sure that's a great idea...
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I've stopped all db techniques and have adopted grey rock.
As LH notes there's more to DB'ing that just no contact. Hopefully you're detaching, GAL'ing, 180s, working on yourself. I previously asked you about working on yourself before as that seems to be lacking and the focus seems to be calling your Exs narcissists. Not sure you gave a great answer:
Originally Posted by BL42
What are you doing to be a better person and father? Also...what about a better partner (for current or future people)?
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
How am I being a better father? By actively spending time with them, by fighting for a parenting plan that allows me to be the safe place for them, by validating their emotions in a way that STBNEX doesn't. By involving them in the realities of two homes when she keeps them in the dark. By going beyond what is required in the Parenting Plan when she complains it's too hard. This board showed me to reframe her selfish time as more time with kids. And I am.
[quote=toughtimes180]I'm not saying I'm blameless. Far from it. I allowed her to treat me like crap for over a decade. I avoided conflict. I'm in IC to work through the now, and to eventually work on how to be a better partner in the future.
From what I could tell you're being a better father by spending time with your kids and a better person/partner but not allowing yourself to be treated like crap. Fair enough, but low bar, and both answers involved a lot more about your STBEXs behaviors than yours.
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Absolute minimal contact as required, zero validation or emotion. I guess that's going dark minus the validation and empathy.
Limiting contact is fine, though you have young kids so there's hopefully going to be some parenting communication for their sake. But not sure why you'd throw out validation and empathy...
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
The house goes on the market in a fortnight, and I'm about to send a sensible counter offer. I'm preparing for the absolute worst of behaviour when she receives it.
Do you have agreement to sell the house? Did L sign off on that? Are neither of you living in it now?
toughtimes180 - I continue to get the sense some self-reflection/introspection could help you focus on your areas for improvement, as opposed to simply calling your Exs narcissists.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
It probably seems like we're taking the narcissist charge lightly. Most people claim their ex was a narcissist. An old friend and I were joking about that on our trip this weekend. She looks for being past that phase and seeing ex's more clearly as a sign of dating readiness.
Maybe yours is one? But onto you. "Battles" take two and rarely turn out well for its participants. Own your role in these interactions and consider what you can do to change the dynamic.
Originally Posted by tt180
abuses me in email daily,
For example, instead of frustration, you could opt out of these. Direct legal e-mails to your attorney, co-parenting e-mails to a co-parenting app. Setup a filter so her e-mails go directly to a junk folder unseen for now. True story--I didn't read my ex's e-mails for the first 2yrs post-divorce.
Setting YOUR boundaries doesn't require any cooperation from her.
Originally Posted by tt180
I guess that's going dark minus the validation and empathy.
That's too bad. Those skills can minimize conflict and maximize your outcome.
Originally Posted by tt180
now is attempting to impede on my custody days demanding to see the children every day.
Deep breaths. She wants to see her kids as much as possible, as many parents do. I'm hopeful you took our advice and got a legally binding custody order before moving out? If so, her attorney needs to make a much more compelling case than your attorney to change the status quo.
I should qualify my comment about DB. Yeah, I'm doing all of those things for me, I'm just not doing any of them with nex. Anything I say can lead to a fight if I'm not careful. Even an innocent comment like "not today, I'm tired" can open the door to a rant about her being tired with the kids.
I know this forum talks about Narcassists making up 4% of the population, but I dunno if that includes the whole spectrum. My nex is of the covert kind, very insidious because it's so not obvious on the outside. I still think people on this forum deal with them in a higher proportion by virtue that a relationship with a narc isn't possible. If my nex is not a narc, then let's call it a personality disorder, it doesn't matter the label, she has no ability to love, little empathy, and solely focused on her above everyone else. My point on this is that understanding it helps me to reflect on the dynamic of our entire marriage, and its helped me to understand why I was attracted to this person and what it is about me that needed her in my life. A lot of that had to do with my saviour mentality and neglect of my personal self-care. No differentiation. But then, you can't differentiate with a narc. The minute you don't reflect her, you get conflict.
The key now is to rediscover myself and to be free to do so. And that is what I like about my current sitch. I can.
My change in dynamic is grey rock, ignoring her rants, and keeping emails short and to the point. And using lawyers when required. It's soul sucking, but at least having moved out, I have a safe, quiet place. The days I don't talk to her are therapeutic. I avoid the arguments and battles the best I can, usually with comments like "you know that's not true" or "I'm choosing to follow the Parenting Plan". What I like is that without daily face face contact, I'm much more in control of my reactions.
Consent orders are court orders. Nothing about my Parenting Plan is legally binding. We have to fail mediation before applying to the court for orders. It's an Australian thing to ease the burden on the courts. Because she isn't demonstrating a willingness to follow the Parenting Plan, I have to eventually force mediation and stick to my boundaries. The worst outcome would be if mediation works because it just means that there are no consequences when she breaks the plan down the road.
I've always had time with kids, but it was always on her terms. My time is uninterrupted and of better quality. One month on, I see the difference.
I think they key is that my future will be rough still, selling the house and financial settlement won't be easy. But I see the future, and I like it. It's coming together.
FWIW, I have no interest in a relationship ATM, including anything with my first ex. I am nowhere ready, nor do I even have any desire for that with the ex. As I said, we only have short chats every week or so, catching up on lost time. I just find it weird that this happened at this moment in life. But it's nice we can share our similar experiences.
I know this forum talks about Narcassists making up 4% of the population, but I dunno if that includes the whole spectrum.
Upto 5% is a common estimate of people with NPD, whether overt or covert.
Originally Posted by tt180
I still think people on this forum deal with them in a higher proportion by virtue that a relationship with a narc isn't possible.
I'd buy that--so, maybe upto 7.5% of WAS.
Originally Posted by tt180
If my nex is not a narc, then let's call it a personality disorder, it doesn't matter the label, she has no ability to love, little empathy, and solely focused on her above everyone else.
Originally Posted by "What Is A Covert Narcissist"
Researcher and author Craig Malkin, PhD, suggests that the term "covert" can be misleading. In the field of psychology, behavior can be described as overt or covert. Covert narcissists are only different from overt (more obvious) narcissists in that they tend to be more introverted. Both overt and covert narcissists need to meet the same clinical criteria to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, whether they are extroverted or introverted.
Maybe your ex is the exception and a narcissist. I don't know. What I can say is your legal strategy doesn't seem to align. If I recall correctly, you gave up 50/50 custody of your littlest one because you thought it was better for her to be with her mom than you. That's nonsensical if your ex only loves herself and has a significant behavioral disorder like NPD. NPD parenting isn't pretty. The people I know with NPD ex's fought for as much custody as they could get and usually won.
Originally Posted by tt180
My change in dynamic is grey rock. I avoid the arguments and battles the best I can, usually with comments like "you know that's not true"
That doesn't sound like grey rock.
If she does love her kids and just not you--poof! There goes the behavior disorder and it's more typical "conflicted" parenting with many sites to help, e.g. I Googled "AUSTRALIA HOW TO RESOLVE CONFLICT WITH YOUR CO-PARENT". The more you can do to improve your side of the interactions, the better for the kids. For a cautionary tale, see Wolfman's thread.
1. If she's that broken, your role as parent demands protecting your kids by minimizing her custody. Earlier you were giving up 50/50 custody out of general concerns that switching homes wasn't ideal for a 1-2 y/o. The alleged mental disorder overrides general considerations. Joseph and I went this route with our ex-wives.
2. If she's not that broken, your role as a parent demands dropping the villainizing narrative and figuring out what YOU can do to foster a better parenting relationship. Beyond that being best for the kids, feuding with the parent who has more custody rarely works out well. I'm now (after a time) on this path with my ex-wife.
I hope you find the right path for you to be free of drama while keeping your kiddos safe!
I'm full on in court. I have finally got suitable temporary orders. Australia simply doesn't recognise 50/50 for young children based on the research. I got the best I can until she's 5, where typically 50/50 occurs. Which was always my point. Nex tried to reduce contact with my kids and it didn't work.
Ex is full on abusing and twisting where she can, but it doesn't affect me. Court ignores it and and she is losing. I ignore it.
Regardless of what people think or say here, I'm dealing with a personality disorder. And I am taking on as much parenting as I can whilst trying to minimise the impact of counter parenting. The kids are in therapy and so far so good. They just know Mum and Dad don't talk and sometimes Mum does mean things.
Narcassim doesn't mean I'll ever be free of drama, but the combination of parallel parenting and court orders has put the kids in the best possible place for success. It means I accept nex will never change and I just implement strategies and techniques to deal with it.
I've spent over a year on a narc support forum as well as personal therapy to get to the point where I find that dealing with nex is just a job and I assume nothing. I act like I'm just a single parent.
Eight months on, nothing has changed in terms of "battles". She'll try to create them whenever she can. What's changed is my reaction. Steadfast boundaries.
Actually, I'm now starting to date, and it's refreshing to experience all sorts of different people and to meet people who are accepting of my situation. What a shock to date normal caring empathetic people. Been so long since I experienced that.
Anyway, I'm always grateful for the forum even though ultimately my marriage wasn't salvageable.
Hey TT, things have changed around here but sounds like you have to. Good to read your update, you appear to be doing the best that can be expected. Keep on keeping on.
Eight months on, nothing has changed in terms of "battles". She'll try to create them whenever she can. What's changed is my reaction. Steadfast boundaries.
Great 180.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
