Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out

[LH19]

Peter,

Most people didn’t know that their marriage was in trouble until BD. Even if it wasn’t great we just thought that was how marriage was supposed to be ups and downs. It is likely you W was slowly checking out for years. Someday you will probably look back and see it. Right now you are in the forest and can’t see the tree. She meets OM and boom her attitude changes. She has to pick fights because she has to make it seem she is leaving an awful marriage.

[SteveLW]

Thanks R2C. Did you ever find out if ex was in an A? What made you realize your marriage was in trouble? My W changed suddenly in about 2 weeks - coinciding with the travel where she met the OM and started A. After she came back, it was 1.5 months of facing a W who had drastically changed and always looking to fight. All our usual triggers of affection did not work and there was no affection whatsoever from her during that time. When I tried to show her affection, she would rebuff me. Then BD.

Lots of us have gone through something very similar. As much as WASs are different, WASs are similar. Most of them, once they decide it is time to make their move, regardless of the trigger (and yes, OP are often the trigger) go into a similar mode. Distant, ready to fight at the drop of hat, no affection, and rebuff affection. It is at this point they have "moved on", if you asked them in a moment of honesty they'd say that the marriage was already over in their mind. (This is how they justify As "the marriage was over!".) But, as we tell LBSs, this was a long time coming from the WASs point of view. Usually 1-2 years into them feeling the marriage was bad, needed to end, and they were planning an exit strategy. In fact, very few WASs meet an OP, and start an A, because the marriage was great. They are usually in this 1-2 years of planning an exit when they meet the OP, or reconnect with an old flame, and guess what the first topic of discussion with the OP is? How terrible their marriage is!

The change to you was sudden, but likely she had been unhappy for quite a while and you just didn't know it.

[Ready2Change]

Thanks R2C. Did you ever find out if ex was in an A?

She was definitely in an emotional affair. Most likely PA, but I did not go looking.

What made you realize your marriage was in trouble?

Not going out for our anniversary. Other little clues.

[PeterB]

I don't think he's forgiven me for the SSM either, fully-- we haven't really explored that together in therapy yet, and I think he needs to own his part of why our M was the way it was before the A too. Lots of work in front of us still, IMHO.

It indeed is. Knowing my W, she will never agree to her part, nor apologize for anything. So it will be tough either side of D. But I will of course choose a difficult journey towards HEA rather than D.

I know exactly what you mean about the difference between the PA part in the past and in the present or future. We were in a similar situation, where my H hadn't actually seen the woman for several months when he told me the full truth (that it was a PA; previously he had insisted it was only an EA). I felt that i could forgive him eventually for what had happened in the past but not if it happened again; previously, he could tell himself whatever he wanted about things I didn't know not hurting me, or this idea he had that I didn't/wouldn't really care because I didn't love him that way anymore, etc.-- but for him to go out and sleep with her again knowing how much it would hurt me was a totally different thing that I didn't think I could forgive.

Amazing similarity here. My W would also have to consider the impact on our special needs son that would come from a renewed PA, which both of us know would lead to total animosity. So, if she does take that step then to me it means that she did not think about our son at all.

I feel that if he'd been able to just break it off with her and completely stop cold turkey once he made the decision to stay, it would be easier for me to trust and forgive him, but I do think an A is like a drug and it took him months to finally end it and stop all the lying and finally truly recommit to the M and end his A.

A is definitely a drug that makes you completely lose logical thought. My W flipped in one day (I know because she was affectionate over the phone the previous day and it was genuine). And then it took about 10 more days to come to her decision to abandon whatever we have built for a post-D promise that does not appear to have legs (I think so for various reasons that I have not covered yet). She is trying to build those legs btw but the fantastical nature of how she thinks the post-D future will pan out is just mind-boggling.

It is 100% true that you can't R with someone until the AP is completely out of the picture, your spouse wants to be there, and is committed to the M. That can't happen if they are still in contact at all with the AP and even after it ends it will take time for them to get mentally back in the game (if they even do).

This is so true. In my sitch, I think just the fact that she might have to recommit without even properly pursuing R with OM, as he is long distance, can make her not recommit. She could think *now* that she will in the future repent not trying harder with OM so let me try that and not recommit *now*. Interesting psychological sitch.

And above all-- their head space and commitment to the M, wanting back in, wanting out, total confusion, whatever--that is all their work and you can't control any of it. So that is why I am really urging you to continue the process of letting go of the illusion of control and refocusing that energy on yourself and what matters to you.

Forgiveness is such a great tool isn't it. It is the most effective method we have at our disposal to get past hard matters. Best thing is that every individual has full control over their own actions of forgiveness. Thanks for bringing up the notion of forgiving yourself for your own choices when the choices are inconsistent with past convictions. I think I can already apply that to some past situations in our MR.

One last thought to throw out there-- I do think that there are differences when the WS does not actually leave, though they are threatening to, or carrying on an A.
...
Peter, you might want to read some of the situations of others who were in IHS. This might be why both Steve and I are harping on boundaries vs. control. When you live with someone, that gets tested daily and you have to be both ultra conscious of your own boundaries and whether or not they're being tested or crossed, and self-aware enough to always be checking to see if you're truly drawing boundaries to protect yourself or using the language of boundaries to try to manipulate your spouse's behavior.

@may22, this is such a huge challenge. I get put into difficult situations daily. Handling those without fighting or appearing controlling is why I ask so many questions of a tactical nature in this forum. I think living together also increases her urge to bring up her pov again and again (I don't mind her doing that btw). I was out for a day on Fri for a GAL activity, and she sent me a few long messages that were painful even though I am trying to detach (because of the revisionism). She is actively creating negatives in even overwhelmingly positive experiences and that is hard to digest. My handling is getting better, however.

She keeps calling my efforts fake and forced. Clearly it is not that, because I am genuinely feeling happy about myself and about what I am doing. Several members have called it for what it is - typical WAS behavior because these efforts go against their narrative. But she brings it up again and again. Should I just not respond to it but let the chat continue? Or should I set a boundary here that if she says that again then I will not participate in that chat? Should I let her know when I am exiting that it is because I don't have to hear myself getting called fake repeatedly?

What is IHS btw? Did not see it in the abbreviation page.

I think putting that ultimatum out there will just push them away, or cause them to lie. Much better to follow Steve's path of GAL, PMA, and focusing on yourself and detachment. Unless you really don't want to be married to a cheater-- and then your path should be to figure out how to best protect yourself and your kids in a D.

Agree. I am not going to give ultimatums or even ask her to live separately. Will handle things as they come (from her own decisions).

[kml]

In House Separation

The proper answer to "are your changes just to win me back" is to emphasize that you now realize you needed to make these changes, and will continue making them whether or not the marriage succeeds.

They (understandably) worry that the changes are just for show and that you'll revert to your old self as soon as they recommit to the marriage.

But they're also feeling uncomfortable with the fact that the things they used to justify their affair don't look so real anymore.

[PeterB]

Peter, Most people didn’t know that their marriage was in trouble until BD. Even if it wasn’t great we just thought that was how marriage was supposed to be ups and downs. It is likely you W was slowly checking out for years. Someday you will probably look back and see it. Right now you are in the forest and can’t see the tree. She meets OM and boom her attitude changes. She has to pick fights because she has to make it seem she is leaving an awful marriage.

In our sitch, I'd say she might have been "checking out" (meaning increasing unhappiness in this case, getting closer to an undefined low threshold), for about 8 months, max, and obviously increasing after IC started. During BD, and several times after that, she herself told me that D was unthinkable "even 2 months ago". She has revised 2021 quite a bit and I understand this is natural pre-D behavior, so I don't hold the revisionism against her even though some of it is rather hurtful.

But her affections over the phone were real and communications normal even the day before she met OM. Less than 14 days later she decided to D. That is a fact. It's the day that she took the A drug and our lives went upside down, without ever seriously talking maturely about the state of our MR among ourselves or even considering MC. Not that any of this matters much now, but it is useful for context.

[PeterB]

In House Separation

Thanks. The mods should probably update the abbreviation list .

The proper answer to "are your changes just to win me back" is to emphasize that you now realize you needed to make these changes, and will continue making them whether or not the marriage succeeds.

I have responded in kind a few times. But what if she brings it up again and again? - as if she either did not understand what I said or repeating it serves a purpose for her that I do not understand. Or it's just that the worry mentioned below (reverting after recommit or over time) is not something she can easily overcome. Perhaps I should assume the latter, empathize / validate (while not really agreeing to her worry) and let the chat continue.

Btw, she has told me that her 'friend' is very sure I am doing this just to win her back and that it's mechanical and there is no love in the picture at all .

They (understandably) worry that the changes are just for show and that you'll revert to your old self as soon as they recommit to the marriage.

But they're also feeling uncomfortable with the fact that the things they used to justify their affair don't look so real anymore.

[PeterB]

The change to you was sudden, but likely she had been unhappy for quite a while and you just didn't know it.

Actually, I knew it. I was also sick of the MR. The sudden change I am talking about is the drastic going from regular affection to going incommunicado in one day. As she said herself during BD, "D was unthinkable 2 months ago", but apparently it was like "a door opened when she got away from me for a while" (she meant the travel).

Haha I am aware that her revised MR will be the first topic and first bonding with the OM. And the OM will probably be like he has just won the lottery as W is quite a hottie even at ML . Over the years I have trusted her completely even though she is validated day in and out by potential suitors and young horndogs, as I was confident of her family values as well as about me. We would frequently joke about people hitting on her all the time. So, the A came as a massive surprise. If I were to imagine she would D in the future, then I would also think it would be clean rather than becoming a WW. And I know that the promise of a rosy future with her AP is the top reason for not recommitting.

[may22]

She is trying to build those legs btw but the fantastical nature of how she thinks the post-D future will pan out is just mind-boggling.

bahahaha, my H thought he and AP would live next door and he would still come over for dinner every night with the family. We would still be best friends. WSs totally live in this crazy fantasy land.

@may22, this is such a huge challenge. I get put into difficult situations daily. Handling those without fighting or appearing controlling is why I ask so many questions of a tactical nature in this forum. I think living together also increases her urge to bring up her pov again and again (I don't mind her doing that btw). I was out for a day on Fri for a GAL activity, and she sent me a few long messages that were painful even though I am trying to detach (because of the revisionism). She is actively creating negatives in even overwhelmingly positive experiences and that is hard to digest. My handling is getting better, however.

My advice-- just don't let her negatives affect you. Detach. She's all over the place and don't let her drag you around. DnJ on the MLC board has some great advice (not sure exactly where it is located these days) on how your spouse is like a runaway train and you can let yourself be dragged all over by her or you can simply untether yourself and detach. Run on your own steam in your own direction. If the messages are painful, don't read them until you have time and space to do so. Or simply don't read them. Remind yourself not to believe anything they say and half of what they do. She might say something totally different tomorrow. She may just be trying to elicit a reaction from you. Don't take the bait. I basically got to a point where all I was saying was, okay. I get that you feel that way. You do what you need to do. My H really wanted me to agree with him that we should get Ded. I refused-- if he wanted to separate or D, that was his choice. He was free to do so. But I wasn't going to handle it for him. I also got to a point where (most of the time, not all) I could just let him talk to me about how he was feeling and I just let it roll off my back. He was reinventing the past-- he was free to do so. How he was thinking about our past- yes, maybe hurtful that he was saying those things, but I knew it was BS and wasn't going to let his crazy become my crazy. Does that make sense? Just focus on yourself and what you know to be true and let her BS roll off your back. Or avoid these conversations totally if they are painful. Do not engage or spend a lot of time parsing it out. They follow a very clear script on all of this, which is both wild but also helped me to realize I was not alone and this was all par for the course.

She keeps calling my efforts fake and forced. Clearly it is not that, because I am genuinely feeling happy about myself and about what I am doing. Several members have called it for what it is - typical WAS behavior because these efforts go against their narrative. But she brings it up again and again. Should I just not respond to it but let the chat continue? Or should I set a boundary here that if she says that again then I will not participate in that chat? Should I let her know when I am exiting that it is because I don't have to hear myself getting called fake repeatedly?

Again-- she's free to think what she wants. You know the truth. I wouldn't fight with her or get defensive. I don't know that I'd set a boundary to not discuss it-- does it harm you for her to tell you your efforts are fake and forced when you know they are not? Who cares what she thinks? My husband said some of the same things too. If I were you I'd just say... okay. I hear you. It's fine if you want to think that. And stop engaging on it. Not getting defensive or arguing will take the wind out of her sails pretty quickly. You've probably said your piece about how this is all change you are making for yourself and blah blah blah. She doesn't need to hear that again. Just keep on focusing on yourself and your positive changes. It really doesn't matter if she recognizes them as fake or real or not, since you aren't doing them to win her back. (Right? That is the key.)

Basically-- you don't need to validate her if you don't want to, but don't engage. Don't get defensive. Don't get sucked into R talks. Go about your business, GAL, and focus on your son. He's going to need you.

[SteveLW]

She is trying to build those legs btw but the fantastical nature of how she thinks the post-D future will pan out is just mind-boggling.

bahahaha, my H thought he and AP would live next door and he would still come over for dinner every night with the family. We would still be best friends. WSs totally live in this crazy fantasy land.
[/quote]

Lol same with my W. "I'll get an apartment near by. I'll come over several nights a week for dinner, and have you and D over to my apartment for dinner." The wayward mind is amazing.