Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out

[Traveler]

This is why there are little to no recons here.

There are two long-term reconciliations right in this thread--Steve and May.

I'd really focus on the boundaries vs. attempted control distinction. I had a really hard time with this. Bring your boundaries here and posters can help you parse out what is a boundary for you vs what is a "boundary" that you're setting to really try to control her.

This is what I meant earlier about wanting to tell her "if you are in a PA I will D you". That is not a boundary. It is you trying to scare her straight, so to speak.

I get not everyone here got a chance to reconcile, and that's sad, and that [censored]. It's a mix of right actions, your relationship history--and luck! I feel lucky I had that shot with my XGF and XW.

The DB toolkit has some powerful tools that I hope help Peter!

[PeterB]

Hi Peter,
- I do love my H. FWIW he says he never stopped loving me either. Loving him as a person is separate from me still being really quite angry over his behavior. I'm not quite at forgiveness yet.

Great insight. And interesting that you are not at forgiveness and yet piecing. Has he forgiven you for why he was unhappy leading to an A (I see that you mentioned SSM)? Or did he A for his own problems.

- With time and space he's also stopped defining how he felt about the AP as love but he really did go all-in during the A, told me it was True Love, etc. I think he needed to convince himself it was True Love in order to justify his actions like it was all beyond his control.

Personally, I believe that falling in love can only come from control of your own actions, as love does not come easily. A sudden PA could have other reasons though - like emotional vulnerability, delusions etc.

- If you've decided that if her affair has gone physical that you'll divorce her, as others have said-- prepare yourself for the high likelihood that it already has. (Also, what do you mean by physical? Would a kiss count or just going all the way?) Saying you will D if you find out it is a PA vs actually doing it is pretty different, so I would recommend preparing yourself for this path. Talk to an L. Understand your rights. How would you want to manage custody of your child? I talked to several attorneys and actually did all the worksheets so that I could see what the financials implications would look like and had a proposal for custody split. This was really necessary for me to get rid of the fear of D and be prepared. I highly recommend this.

Yes I am searching for a lawyer. Her A had already gone PA - I know it was for a few days but it is likely that she was hoping it would happen even before meeting the OM. But because of distance there has been no physical contact for over 4 months. I considered this issue just as I went LRT but it was not a deal breaker. However things are different now. It has been several months since BD, she has definitely noticed my changes and has had renewed experience in parenting under the same roof. So if she deliberately travels to PA with the OM then I consider that a deal breaker. Am I mentally fully prepared for that if it happens? - No. But I am working towards that. What I cannot live with is a total revision of our MR, the bitterness she has towards me and then PA again.

- In terms of S, I agree if you don't want to leave the house or the MBR, don't. Depending on home ownership or who is on the lease, you may not be able to force her to leave either-- so be prepared for that. I asked my H to leave and he refused which was now a blessing in disguise but at the time I was really angry and frustrated and felt powerless-- but at the same time it was more important to me to stay in the house with the kids and let him be the one to take the step of walking out the door if that is what he chose to do. I made that choice with open eyes though and realize it isn't for everyone. If your boundary is I won't live with someone who is in an affair, then you might need to be prepared to move out yourself if she won't go.

I won't go and I won't ask her to go either, as I have our son to consider in this. That will change after or during D, or per her own actions pre-D.

- I don't necessarily agree that all changes are temporary...
... I think 180s are great ways to try out different ways of being and see what works for you. If you're just doing it to try to keep your S around, then I agree with LH-- it will go away. But, you might find your own benefits to how you feel from some of those 180s. For instance, maybe not getting annoyed at her for little things can be really freeing and personally rewarding to you, and something you'd like to keep regardless of your R with her. But if you're internally rolling your eyes and super annoyed and just acting like it doesn't bother you-- that's not a 180 you're likely to be able to keep up, I would guess.

It's like you just spoke my mind. I don't believe that changes cannot be permanent. For the getting annoyed/yelling issue, I have found that addressing that (it was not easy) has made me so much lighter and feeling liberated from imaginary chains that now I can't imagine reverting. I am resolute in making this a lifelong benefit.

My final piece of advice to you is that I'd really focus on the boundaries vs. attempted control distinction. I had a really hard time with this. Bring your boundaries here and posters can help you parse out what is a boundary for you vs what is a "boundary" that you're setting to really try to control her.

Yes, this appears to be a difficult skill for many reasons, not the least being the appropriate use of language and potential misinterpretation of language. Working on it.

[PeterB]

Peter,

DB-ing is very hard. And men and women are different. Even MWD will tell you that it's harder to turn around a WAW and WW than a man. Also, there is a tendency on these forums to get stuck in waiting mode. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark.

Can you tell me to the material about ultimatums and going dark? I purchased her LRT training and it was very helpful. But there is no info on the above two.

It seems you need to know what you want. You seem a little unsure if you could forgive an actual infidelity or would pursue a divorce. The lack of clarity will affect your strategy and exhaust you.

I have actually forgiven her for A she started several months ago. But I won't PA anymore. Please see my recent response to @may22 for bit more detail. I am preparing mentally for that.

It would seem you are getting into that zone that you are second guessing every action, conversation and thought about your wife. Every conversation, every little thing is being scrutinized. You can't keep this up for long. Why? It's exhausting. And...your wife can tell.

She can see that you are dancing around her. Any change of behavior is, admit it or not, a way to change the outcome of this whole mess you're in. It makes her trust you less. To be honest, GAL, and being detached is very hard. How do you work hard at looking like you are not working hard? It's exhausting, bro. Very few people can be that Zen. Give yourself a break. Be yourself.

Yes it's happening but getting better. I know that I have much more mind space than I had one month ago. I am actually quite keen on understanding myself better as I have never been a very self-aware person and if I have to work hard for that then I will and I won't predicate my self-help on what she thinks about it, regardless of D or not.

Yet at the same time, I need help on tactical situations at home and you'll find that a lot of my questions are on that.

Your initial posture should be: if she is interested in separation or divorce, she can move to the couch and she can move out. Why should you uproot yourself if she wants out or is having an affair?

Agree. And hell no, I am not moving. Never considered it.

I think in Sandi's rules, particularly in dealing with a Wayward or WAW, it's important for the man to have set boundaries or rules, show strength and be clear. Respect leads to attraction. Also, establishing respect shows you are not someone to be trifled with.

In my experience, unless you are a complete jerk, changing yourself, becoming your "best" self, doing 180's don't really last. Eventually you will revert to who you basically are. I've seen it on these boards before - intense personal change that lasts for 12, 18 or 24 mos and then you slip back. Sorry to say this, but it's inevitable. The divorce gets busted and then, 2 yrs later they are back on the boards and the marriage is toast. Personal change is super hard. If you're wife doesn't like who you are, might as well end it sooner than later. Again, if you're a real jerk and need serious help, get it. If you're just a normal guy, you aren't going to turn into superman. You can't save this marriage alone. Two people need to compromise and work at it. You will hear in the forums that 180's and being solution oriented are really just emergency measures to get their attention. GAL is for your own sanity. The real hard work of repairing a marriage is 50/50 and In the end, she has to want the marriage as much as you do.

I think we can address only the problems faced in the present. Later if a new problem comes up, then we have to prepared to address that - take this as it comes. But for that to happen a person might have to make some basal changes. For me personally, I have to improve on several things - being reactive, low EQ, less feeling annoyed etc. Will this revert? Well, it can but there are ways to maintain. That will give me confidence to face the future.

This sounds like a contradiction but the only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums.

Starting to read NMMNG and learning more about boundaries.

Having said all that try and get some sleep, exercise, eat well, have some fun. Take up a martial art, go rock climbing or take up a hobby that forces you to experience "one-mind" and extreme focus. Hard to worry about the marriage when you are ducking a kick to the head or reaching for the next handhold on the rock face. Gives you mind a rest. Yeah, I know, almost impossible when your marriage is imploding. Well, at least, try.

Even with the constraints of parenting a special needs child, I am doing many GAL things and I am quite happy about progress. My mind space is also improving.

[SteveLW]

Peter, I was someone that was able to self-improve and I'm over 4 years with no regression. But I couldn't have done that without IC. I believe we can all improve and become better by putting in the work! But the key is not to do that for anyone else or to get someone else to change. The key is to do it for yourself! Because you WANT to be better and become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Also, to ultimatums rarely work and usually backfire on the LBS. Most LBSs want to save their marriage to the point that a WAS breaking or ignoring the ultimatum gets swept under the rug and just makes them look weak. Setting boundaries and sticking to them are way better.

"If this is done, I will do this action!" Much better to focus on what you can control (yourself) and not try to control what you cannot (the actions of others).

[SteveLW]

One last thing, I'm not proponent of the LRT for IHS. That would be nearly impossible to accomplish. What I found a lot of power in was (we were IHS too) was Sandi's rules. They were invaluable to me in my sitch. Treating her like the cashier at the store. Being upbeat, happy, pleased around her. That was the dynamic that started to turn my situation around. LRT is really for physical separation when a LBS is tempted to keep reaching out to their WAS, and jumps at the opportunity to respond anytime the WAS condescends to be the one to reach out.

[LH19]

Peter, I was someone that was able to self-improve and I'm over 4 years with no regression. But I couldn't have done that without IC. I believe we can all improve and become better by putting in the work! But the key is not to do that for anyone else or to get someone else to change. The key is to do it for yourself! Because you WANT to be better and become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Also, to ultimatums rarely work and usually backfire on the LBS. Most LBSs want to save their marriage to the point that a WAS breaking or ignoring the ultimatum gets swept under the rug and just makes them look weak. Setting boundaries and sticking to them are way better.

"If this is done, I will do this action!" Much better to focus on what you can control (yourself) and not try to control what you cannot (the actions of others).

SteveLW and traveler are towing the DB company line. I call this cookie cutter advice which is not wrong. I personally give my opinions on a case by case basis based on certain situations and a feel for the LBS as a person. What they want you to do is detach/GAL/180 and if she cheats again you divorce her and move on. Your secret boundary was broken so time to move on and they sleep like a baby at night. What I am suggesting is you make it clear that if she goes sees OM she will no longer be married to you anymore. A boundary clearly stated and the consequences that come when broken. I would not recommend it if I didn’t think you would follow through. If you don’t follow through and she breaks it is game over. Now having said all that if she is hell bent on seeing OM then she’s going to do it regardless. If she’s on the fence a stated strong boundary may deter her from seeing him. So much of this stuff is about timing. Most peoples regrets on this board including myself is that they were weak little bitche$ during their situations. Don’t have those regrets later on down the line. If a PA is a dealbreaker then let her know it.

[may22]

Hi Peter,

In a lot of ways I have forgiven. I'm not actively angry. Day to day we are great. I just haven't been able to totally let it go. I know that this is something I need to do for myself but it is a process and I don't want to force anything. I don't think he's forgiven me for the SSM either, fully-- we haven't really explored that together in therapy yet, and I think he needs to own his part of why our M was the way it was before the A too. Lots of work in front of us still, IMHO.

I know exactly what you mean about the difference between the PA part in the past and in the present or future. We were in a similar situation, where my H hadn't actually seen the woman for several months when he told me the full truth (that it was a PA; previously he had insisted it was only an EA). I felt that i could forgive him eventually for what had happened in the past but not if it happened again; previously, he could tell himself whatever he wanted about things I didn't know not hurting me, or this idea he had that I didn't/wouldn't really care because I didn't love him that way anymore, etc.-- but for him to go out and sleep with her again knowing how much it would hurt me was a totally different thing that I didn't think I could forgive. And, news flash, he had a trip planned to her city and told me it was necessary for him to break it off with her in person (everyone here was like BS BS BS!!!) and he did, and then told me months later that he had slept with her that one last time. I was devastated and actually this is a part of why I'm still not able to forgive. I feel that if he'd been able to just break it off with her and completely stop cold turkey once he made the decision to stay, it would be easier for me to trust and forgive him, but I do think an A is like a drug and it took him months to finally end it and stop all the lying and finally truly recommit to the M and end his A. All that time was just limbo and it was awful. He is very sorry for all of that but thinks that it was the path he needed to take in order to get to where we we are today. I'm like, good for you, but you also need to recognize that there was a lot of damage done during those months that I'm still dealing with. (While I am grateful every day to have my family intact and to have the opportunity to work on my M with my H, I also do think that reconciliation and piecing is very hard too. There is really no magic pill once the betrayal is there. You will either heal alone or heal together, but the healing process is tough even when you're trying to work through it together.)

It is 100% true that you can't R with someone until the AP is completely out of the picture, your spouse wants to be there, and is committed to the M. That can't happen if they are still in contact at all with the AP and even after it ends it will take time for them to get mentally back in the game (if they even do). And above all-- their head space and commitment to the M, wanting back in, wanting out, total confusion, whatever--that is all their work and you can't control any of it. So that is why I am really urging you to continue the process of letting go of the illusion of control and refocusing that energy on yourself and what matters to you. And, just noting that I thought I would not take him back if he slept with her one last time and in fact I did. I just restarted IC and she said she thinks I maybe first need to focus on forgiving myself for making some of the choices I did, like taking him back. It is all hard no matter what, I think.

One last thought to throw out there-- I do think that there are differences when the WS does not actually leave, though they are threatening to, or carrying on an A. For those whose WSs walked out and didn't look back, it might seem easy to tell Peter to divorce her if A, B, or C... but I do think it is a lot harder than it may seem from the outside to be the one to take that final step of breaking up your family, even if your spouse was the one who really Fed it all up. Peter, you might want to read some of the situations of others who were in IHS. This might be why both Steve and I are harping on boundaries vs. control. When you live with someone, that gets tested daily and you have to be both ultra conscious of your own boundaries and whether or not they're being tested or crossed, and self-aware enough to always be checking to see if you're truly drawing boundaries to protect yourself or using the language of boundaries to try to manipulate your spouse's behavior.

It is one thing if a WS says they want out and you say okay, have a happy life, check you later. It is a total different thing when you have a wishy-washy WS who doesn't really know what they want. To say to them-- are you in or are you out? And if you're out, go or I will-- is really quite different, to me at least-- particularly on the follow through. In the first case, you simply aren't standing in their way. In the second, if they don't walk out on their own, YOU have to be the one to pull the trigger and perhaps go against your own core values and beliefs to do so. And I obviously believe it is possible, given time and emotional if not physical space, for a WS to turn around and recommit to the M. I think putting that ultimatum out there will just push them away, or cause them to lie. Much better to follow Steve's path of GAL, PMA, and focusing on yourself and detachment. Unless you really don't want to be married to a cheater-- and then your path should be to figure out how to best protect yourself and your kids in a D.

[Ready2Change]

Starting to read NMMNG and learning more about boundaries.

More reading:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

[Ready2Change]

I personally give my opinions on a case by case basis based on certain situations and a feel for the LBS as a person.......So much of this stuff is about timing. Most peoples regrets on this board including myself is that they were weak little bitche$ during their situations. Don’t have those regrets later on down the line.

I have watched LH19 for a long time now. He remembers details of everyones sitch. He gives sound advise.

Cookie cutter advise from me. You have lots of things to process. So many changes to the way you behave and interact. They are learned skills. Most do things in the wrong order or at the wrong time.

Fear controls most.

Read as many of the posts in the quote threads as you can and gain the wisdom from those before you:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2910892

[PeterB]

Thanks R2C. Did you ever find out if ex was in an A? What made you realize your marriage was in trouble? My W changed suddenly in about 2 weeks - coinciding with the travel where she met the OM and started A. After she came back, it was 1.5 months of facing a W who had drastically changed and always looking to fight. All our usual triggers of affection did not work and there was no affection whatsoever from her during that time. When I tried to show her affection, she would rebuff me. Then BD.