You may be off on the topic of Catholic annulments. A quick Google search led me to a (albeit dated) Washington Post article which says:
"Almost half of Catholic marriages end in divorce, the same rate as for other Americans. Of those who applied in 1992 in the United States, according to Vatican statistics, 83 percent received annulments and 2 percent were denied. Fifteen percent of the cases were abandoned by the applicants."
Two people close to me were successfully granted an annulment, my ex-aunt (uncle could've if he'd wanted) and current brother-in-law, and I believe it's a doable process.
I have my own views on the concept, but don't believe it's as unattainable as you're describing.
Last edited by BL42; 03/02/2205:00 PM.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
I was having a conversation with someone this morning about how there are more ways to break and violate vows than abuse or infidelity .
I was also saying to that person that the only way the kids get F’ed up in a divorce is how the parents end up acting. Kids end up way more screwed up living with parents who are unhappy. But after the divorce, your kids will thrive if the parenting is done right and you leave your couples stuff out of that equation .
Steve, Physical abuse and cheating aren't the only reasons a person can make you miserable. You personally wouldn't be here if that were the case, now would you? I have no idea if Scott wasa good guy to his wife their entire MR. I don't know Scott personally. I only know what Scott tells me, and I wasn't married to Scott. And you don't really know what happened either. In fact even IRL the only people who really, really know what happened are the two people who lived in that MR. However, I do know that there are a lot more valid reasons to want out from a marriage other than cheating and abuse. And that good people are fully capable of making other people miserable, of missing or ignore others needs or becoming so self involved no one else's needs matter.
Being with a person who takes you for granted OR who puts in no effort when you put all the effort in OR person who gives you money and thinks that enough or conversely a person who thinks you're a bank and nothing else OR a person who doesn't recognize the mental and emotional labor load you carry in your household OR a person who emotional manipulates you OR financially abuses you OR thinks you are a sexual vending machine are all pretty awful people to be married to even if they are in every other aspect are good people. I wouldn't want to be married to people like this and neither would you.
WAS/WS are human beings. Whether you like it or not. Whether you believe it or not. They have feelings. They are entitled to their feelings. And more often than not a lot of those feelings are genuine. You can choose to believe that she's some psychotic cheating liar if you want. Scott's given a lot of evidence to the contrary. I choose to believe she was sad and hurting so she cried. I cant possible know what about, or if it was genuine or not, but based on my own life experience I choose to believe they were genuine tears.
I do not disagree with anything you say here! So I hope you don't think that. I do think WAS and WS in particular, tend to be the most illogical, flakey creatures on planet earth. You mention my own situation and I can say, even though I was a pretty awful husband, my WW's words and deeds rarely made sense. I can remember shortly after BD, with her in full "I want a D" mode, saying to me about some friends of ours "We should invite them over to hang out, I've always really liked them." HUH?
I even remember one time I pointed out when she said something that sent a mixed message, she said "I don't know what I want from minute to minute!"
I too do not know Scott above what he has posted here. He sure seems like a good guy though. I stand by what I said, that his ex is going to live to regret letting him go. But yes I have a tough time having empathy for people that so obviously have chosen their path and then act like they are the victim. That is my read on her tears at the proceeding. Maybe I am wrong and she was mourning what COULD have been. Scott is right, most little girls do not ponder their dream divorce. But she pushed down a path with a lot of obstacles on her way to Monday, and consciously cleared each hurdle along the way.
WF, I do find it funny though, just an observation, but you are essentially telling me to have some sympathy for Scott's ex (which I do not), but then tell me what I would or wouldn't want.
In short, you are entitled to your opinion about the sincerity of her tears. And I am to mine. Peace.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
"A toxic relationship is one that makes you feel unsupported, misunderstood, demeaned, or attacked. On a basic level, any relationship that makes you feel worse rather than better can become toxic over time."
Wayfarer: I'm not saying that toxic relationships don't exsist, they surely do. But certain ideas become popular, show up everywhere and get overused.
Words matter (Brene Brown wrote an entire book because of this), and labeling something often allows you to categorize it, stamp it, and put it in its box. Rarely are things so simple. I think finding better words to describe a situation is healthy. Labels, like stereotypes, can be dangerous.
As for the annulment, Thanks BL42 - exactly true.
Regardless, I've found it helpful to walk through the paperwork. If I get denied, that's okay. I'll feel better for going through the process. I read the canon law on the subject and found several statutes that applied. I believe I counted seven. I've had friends get annulments, its more or less a function of doing the work.
"A toxic relationship is one that makes you feel unsupported, misunderstood, demeaned, or attacked. On a basic level, any relationship that makes you feel worse rather than better can become toxic over time."
Wayfarer: I'm not saying that toxic relationships don't exsist, they surely do. But certain ideas become popular, show up everywhere and get overused.
Words matter (Brene Brown wrote an entire book because of this), and labeling something often allows you to categorize it, stamp it, and put it in its box. Rarely are things so simple. I think finding better words to describe a situation is healthy. Labels, like stereotypes, can be dangerous.
As for the annulment, Thanks BL42 - exactly true.
Regardless, I've found it helpful to walk through the paperwork. If I get denied, that's okay. I'll feel better for going through the process. I read the canon law on the subject and found several statutes that applied. I believe I counted seven. I've had friends get annulments, its more or less a function of doing the work.
Great outlook here Scott. Agree that real life is usually much more complex than the simple labels our human brains try to give things. I don't think WF is trying to say your marriage was toxic in the way that it was not able to be saved, and was a complete disaster. But that you ex-W probably viewed it as toxic to her. I believe two people can look at the same thing and see different things. That was one of the things I learned in both of my situations was that reality was less important as my WAW/WW's perspective. I know you know this but am pointing this out for any LBSs that might read this. If your WAS's perspective is that the MR is toxic, the fact that in reality is isn't doesn't matter.
Now, the fact that WASs convince themselves of these kinds of things to justify their own actions is another topic, one that has been discussed multiple times on this forum. But in general their perspective becomes their reality.
Last edited by SteveLW; 03/03/2202:08 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
"A toxic relationship is one that makes you feel unsupported, misunderstood, demeaned, or attacked. On a basic level, any relationship that makes you feel worse rather than better can become toxic over time."
Wayfarer: I'm not saying that toxic relationships don't exsist, they surely do. But certain ideas become popular, show up everywhere and get overused.
Words matter (Brene Brown wrote an entire book because of this), and labeling something often allows you to categorize it, stamp it, and put it in its box. Rarely are things so simple. I think finding better words to describe a situation is healthy. Labels, like stereotypes, can be dangerous.
As for the annulment, Thanks BL42 - exactly true.
Regardless, I've found it helpful to walk through the paperwork. If I get denied, that's okay. I'll feel better for going through the process. I read the canon law on the subject and found several statutes that applied. I believe I counted seven. I've had friends get annulments, its more or less a function of doing the work.
Great outlook here Scott. Agree that real life is usually much more complex than the simple labels our human brains try to give things. I don't think WF is trying to say your marriage was toxic in the way that it was not able to be saved, and was a complete disaster. But that you ex-W probably viewed it as toxic to her. I believe two people can look at the same thing and see different things. That was one of the things I learned in both of my situations was that reality was less important as my WAW/WW's perspective. I know you know this but am pointing this out for any LBSs that might read this. If your WAS's perspective is that the MR is toxic, the fact that in reality is isn't doesn't matter.
Now, the fact that WASs convince themselves of these kinds of things to justify their own actions is another topic, one that has been discussed multiple times on this forum. But in general their perspective becomes their reality.
Steve's right. (that's right I said it). I believe your Ex bought a book about divorcing a narcissist. That's her reality right or wrong. You can't control it you can only influence it. With time and space she will start to remember more good times then bad.
"We just don't work", "our marriage is toxic", "our communication doesn't work", "I used to be feisty", "I've lost my voice", "I'm only sex to you", "you treat me like a 1950's housewife", "I do everything around here", "You'll never change".
---------- The most significant turning point was when she had a traumatic childbirth, resulting in a hysterectomy and then after being the breadwinner stopped working and stayed home with the kids immediately thereafter. She also did not go to counseling following that trauma.
That coupled with the fact I double downed at work to makes ends meet began to create a divide.
I later learned that she is an enneagram 9; that type of person is "diplomatic" and struggles to speak their mind. They try to be a peace maker. I didn't know that - so where I grew up being used to speaking up when I needed or wanted something, her style would be to say - "I like that color on that house." - which actually meant "I would like to paint our house that color." If I replied "Its just okay" - she took that as me saying "No."
So while I was working my tail off, and flailing in the process, trying to exercise my own demons, she was struggling through her trauma and isolation. She found another man to confide in. He helped her rehabilitate from the pregnancy through personal training. He was a stay at home dad. His son was my sons best friend. When I asked her to end that relationship she was furious and said I would regret it.
It was around that time that I began to see a real change in her, or maybe I just started to notice. Hard to say. I was struggling to figure out ways to help her. I called her mom to say that something was wrong and she told me I needed to go get help.
It felt like there was no where to turn. As I saw it, my wife was in the crux of a depression/mid-life crisis. Because of the affair she had become very isolated from all of her friends. The affair led to her not trusting me because she mistakenly believed that I had asked people to follow her around. Trust became a major issue.
And then I think she needed to begin to search for her "why?" Why was her life where it was?
After trying different jobs, and having few other variables she could change, she blamed the marriage. The divorce was the only way she could become happy again.
So she came up with the idea that I had a narcistic personality disorder. She began watching videos on youtube related to getting away from your narcist. She subscribed to newsletters via email and read books. Got an attorney and worked towards the divorce with the support of her mom - the same mom who previously wouldn't help. ----------
In the marriage, I wasn't perfect. I needed to be more empathetic, I needed to learn to listen better, I needed to help around the house more, I needed to be more sensitive. As a person I needed and still need to work on feeling my emotions. I need to be less competitive and more compassionate. I could write novels on how I could and can continue to improve -- And I was trying and still am. Again, I was no where near perfect. But I have a belief that no one is, and no marriage is, and that the issues you have are the issues you will have, so you might as well stay and get to work.
-----------
So the sad part is I'm not alone. My wife burned many of her relationships - including her sister, who asked her to stop the affair.
I watch her and see how much she breaks down; not just about the marriage, but in regards to her general life, and its very sad for me.
The day after the divorce I sent her a text because her grandmother had died and she had been crying at the divorce proceeding (her grandmother passed afterwards and they weren't that close - had only seen her 4 times in the 15 years we were married).
The text I sent read "I hope you're doing okay. I know its been a tough two days. I didn't mention the divorce to the kids or your grandmother's passing. I know she was tired so i hope she has peace now. I'll pray for your family. Let me know if you need anything."
She replied "Thank you. Honestly, I'm not ok. Yesterday was one of the toughest days of my life. I just feel like I can't keep my head above water with all the sh!t life keeps throwing at me. I don't even have time to process one thing before the next bad thing happens. Appreciate the kind words. I wanted to reach out yesterday but I couldn't find the words and the I got the news about grandma."
I replied "It was a hard day. Words struggle to capture it all."
I don't know what she meant by the sh!t life keeps throwing at her. And I have no idea what she would have reached out to say. That the second time she has sent me a text like that in the last two weeks. ----- So LH, I think she is on a search for happiness. She thinks now she can own it and make it happen. And I hope so, for the sake of my kids. I'll admit to some schadenfreude - where a small part of me gets pleasure from seeing her struggle - that "I told you so" part - but overall I would like her to find happiness. I just don't think its in the cards for her unless she stops to do some serious internal work, and in my experience she's not willing to do that.
