#19 - Still working through Ring & Piecing

[Ready2Change]

R2C, you know you're one of my favorite posters here! I hope you never leave man. Sincerely, thanks for all you do!

Mostly lurking... I was reading Sandi's threads, but I am very busy at work and home these days....we will never know how many people we help by posting.


Hopefully we are all learning something from the current topic. Just because I have never used a tampon, doesn't mean I can't explain to a woman how to use one, but I am sure an experienced woman would be able to explain it better.

As far as using a pad, my only recommendation is sticky side down.

[SteveLW]

R2C, you know you're one of my favorite posters here! I hope you never leave man. Sincerely, thanks for all you do!

Mostly lurking... I was reading Sandi's threads, but I am very busy at work and home these days....we will never know how many people we help by posting.


Hopefully we are all learning something from the current topic. Just because I have never used a tampon, doesn't mean I can't explain to a woman how to use one, but I am sure an experienced woman would be able to explain it better.

As far as using a pad, my only recommendation is sticky side down.

Okay that is a topic that even I wouldn't weigh in on!

But R2C, you've always had a way of really being succinct and direct, and in a softer way than I ever could. I really admire people that can say things that need to said in a way that the recipient doesn't get hurt or take offense to it. I tend to be too direct. As I said above, for some that works. For others maybe not so much. I think Traveler said that not seeing the body language, facial expressions, things like that also have an impact.

I've noticed that before the pandemic LBSs seemed more open to the tough love, direct, 2x4 approach. Since the pandemic started LBSs seem a tad more sensitive. Not sure if it is corollary or not but some of the veterans that used to post here brought the 2x4s. They didn't even have to warn you, they just did it. Now it feels that if you are going to get tough with a LBS (for their own good) it has to be full of disclaimers and warnings.

Anyway, just some observations while we are the topic. As far as some being disagreeable, again that is part and parcel of the internet. I really do not care if someone that I do not even know posts something I disagree with here or any other forum. It is the internet and there are a lot of different perspectives. I'll just continue to providing my perspective regardless of who likes or doesn't, always being open to the threads LBS whether or not they want that perspective or not.

[MLCxH]

Some thoughts here:
1. People are biased by their personal beliefs. This is natural, but it would help if they tried to give the advice based on the other person's beliefs rather than their own. If someone thinks an EA is a deal breaker but the person that the advice is intended for does not, the advice is better received if it is comes from a perspective of the EA not being a deal breaker regardless of personal belief.

2. People get defensive when receiving advice, especially when it is not something they want to hear. When the advice is correct, it will help if the poster stays on the thread rather than leave because the advice is not being well received. This is important because many others read the thread and not just the OP. We don't want others to feel that the advice was incorrect just because it was rejected by a few.

3. Newcomers on this thread are hurt and emotionally fragile. They come here desperate and grasping at straws. While we all know that 'this is a marathon and not a sprint', it is hard for people in that state to accept that. It is hard for them to accept that in most cases the R is dead and reconciliation really means a new R, which is difficult given the history. We hence need to keep our own frustrations in check when the advice is rejected. Most success stories here start out with the LBS being a mess and doing all the wrong things. It is only later that they come to terms with reality and do the right thing.

4. Try to understand what is important to the LBS. When I was a newcomer, I mainly wanted specific advice on things I could do to get my WAW to stay in the house to increase the chances of R. I was handling myself well emotionally, so some of the advice such as moving on because "she fired me as H", was not helpful. Now, I eventually had to accept there was no path to R, but that was only after I explored the available paths and found them to either be a dead end or found them to be paths I did not want to walk down.

Steve,
For what it is worth, when you first commented on my thread, I did not like your tone even though some of the advice made sense. When I reread my thread a few months later, the tone did not bother me at all and felt a lot more normal and straightforward than when I first read it. I also found myself agreeing with a lot more of your advice than I initially did

[SteveLW]

While newcomer LBSs do not like to hear "you've been fired by your spouse", it is an important point to make to them. The reason? Because most LBSs react to "I want a divorce" by trying to become super spouse. It is the exact opposite of what the LBS should be doing. And so telling a LBS to stop acting like their WAS husband or wife is important. MLC I do not remember all of the details of your coming here, but my guess is that I or someone else said "your wife has fired you as her husband" because you were trying to save your marriage by becoming the best husband in the world. That can work at some point prior to BD, but once BD rolls around being super husband just doesn't work.

Interesting take on how you reacted to my advice then vs. now. I can relate a big, though by time I came to this form in my situation, I was ready for the 2x4s. While I agree that LBSs come here desperate, hurt, going through the worst time of their lives, I think succinct, blunt, to the point advice is really what they need, whether they want to hear it or not. I don't remember how old you are but I think this "don't tell me what I need to hear" thing is largely generational. As the helicopter parent kids come of age, they are a lot less willing to hear hard truth. Yes you can say things harshly or kindly, and that doesn't always translate through the written word, but saying what needs to be said still has to occur.

All of this has taught me a point that you made though, and that is I have to be careful sharing my own personal beliefs too much because it may not be helpful to the LBS. That longtime posters don't like to hear it is immaterial to me, to be frank. Having a vet here obsess over my view on PAs means nothing to me, I just simply do not care. When a LBS comes to this forum and are letting a WAS walk all over them because they think they can nice them back, and that LBS states that PAs were always a dealbreaker for them, then I am going to continue to remind LBSs that it isn't a good idea to give up on those dealbreakers. It saddens me to see LBWs that have been physically abused, make excuses for that behavior even though they've always said that a single incident of abuse was a dealbreaker for them. Giving up on dealbreakers to a spouse that is completely unrepentant after having broken one teaches that spouse that is ok to ignore the LBS's dealbreakers. That is not setting up for the future R that the LBS SHOULD want to have.

Thanks for the thoughtful response though MLC. I obviously do not agree with all of it, but it is nice to hear other's perspectives.

[SteveLW]

MLC, same ask for you I had for May. I went back and reread my responses in your thread, and I would like to know which ones you took issue with in tone. I'd like to try to learn and adjust the tone in the future.

Thanks!

[LH19]

1. People are biased by their personal beliefs. This is natural, but it would help if they tried to give the advice based on the other person's beliefs rather than their own. If someone thinks an EA is a deal breaker but the person that the advice is intended for does not, the advice is better received if it is comes from a perspective of the EA not being a deal breaker regardless of personal belief.

He doesn't get it and I don't think he ever will. It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't a hypocrite.

Anyways MLC how about an update. How is your ex? Did she find her pot of gold? Have you dipped your foot in the dating pool?

[wayfarer]

MLC 100% with on 1-3. I can't agree with 4 though. Reminding myself that I was "fired as a wife" really helped me accept what was going on. I've seen it help a lot of newbies conceptualize what was happening for the exact reason Steve said, thinking "I want a divorce" means the LBS should become super spouse and then they'll love me again. Is it an off putting phrase? Absolutely! But that ties into your second point. It may hurt to hear it but it needs to be said. And the sooner someone can see their MR for what it is at that moment the better off they are.

[Valeska19]

This board is drastically different from when I joined in 2011. The 1st question asked was about how the LBS felt they contributed to the demise of the marriage. Were they controlling? Immature?Sh!tty Parent or Spouse, etc... and then VETS helped them change that aspect of themselves as they interacted with their WAS and in their daily life. Of course we still recommended boundaries. Of course we still recommend GALing but it was for the sake of their safety/well being vs. a response to their spouse.

Sometimes Blunt is necessary but IMHO - seeing how an LBS deserves better is the best approach to go. No one will set up or stick to boundaries UNLESS they BELIEVE they deserve better treatment. That is hard enough in a normal day to day life let alone when Sh!t has hit the fan and splattered all over your face.

90% of people can't handle the "Let Go, Let God/Universe take over". 90% can handle boundaries/deal breaker conversations. They are too scared of the future. Too scared they won't survive. Our job is to help them get through the day to day so the storm settles and they can make the best decisions for themselves.

We have very little new faces on here. After I divorced - the "Surviving the Big D" was not very active. Now it's more active than the Newcomers. That is neither good or bad... but it does make me curious if maybe we have less traffic because we have changed (as a whole board) our priorities when giving advice.

[SteveLW]

V, I've heard this before. "The board has changed. The advice has changed. The approach has changed."

I can only say how it was in Feb 2018 when I found the board. And if you go read my 1st thread you'll see I got hammered by 2x4s right out of the gate. I saw a lot of other LBSs around that time also get 2x4'd on a daily basis. Very eye-opening, helpful stuff by a dozen or more veterans. I was extremely thankful for that even though at the time it was difficult to hear. I came here convinced that the whole of my situation was due to my wife's anti-depressant medication. I had read a thread here where a LBS had found that there was research even suggesting that ADs contributed to the breakup of marriages. I was looking for confirmation (confirmation bias) of my findings and wanting others here to tell me the best way to get my wife to stop taking her meds.

The 2x4s were swift, and to the point. ADs weren't our problems. I couldn't change her or her behavior or what she was doing, and I needed to pull up my bigboy pants and start acting like someone that respected myself, that deserved better, and that needed to stop whining and pointing to things outside of my control.

Within a month my approach to my situation changed. I wasn't perfect, but I certainly got better and more consistent with DBing principles and the activities that were espoused.

So my question back to you is what is so different than when you joined in 2011. You said people came here and got questioend about their role in the breakup, and then got advice to reverse course on that. I am not seeing it being so much different here. If a LBS comes here and says "I have a problem with being controlling" a lot of the advice they get is how to let go and stop thinking they CAN control everything. Help me out here.

[Ready2Change]

Not too many new LBS's these days. I believe google searches were bringing more people here in the past. I think other sites have moved up in the rankings and this site has moved down.