Steve, you and I have a 3 page argument on my very first thread (starting around pg 7) about how pathetic and scared I was for not leaving my H outright when his EA shifted to a PA. (which I knew was going to happen and it did just as I thought it would, just like his whole A) When I told you I was neither scared nor a door mat and that your line in the sand is not the same as my line in the sand you gave me a lot of push back. I was already in a pretty vulnerable place and what you said really hurt me, but I don't get sad or beat myself up when I'm hurting. I get angry. And thankfully I have had enough therapy in my life at that point that I could put the anger into good use and I really sat with what you were saying. At the same time I was getting hit IRL with an IC who was pushing me to leave or kick him out and a person in my life who was dropping not so subtle hints who eventually ramped up to telling me outright I had no self esteem and completely lacked any kind of self respect for standing for my MR. Honestly the whole thing for me was helpful. It helped me to really find my way to why I was really standing, and learn what I could live with, with other people judging my decisions.
That's the thing about A's when the world knows. If you reconcile your spouse stops looking like the loser and then you do. Unless they are a highly empathetic and knowledgeable person who understands how nuanced and how much work both of you need to put into the MR to get to that point, the person who stays looks like and idiot. That is the one and only thing about recon that is harder than D.
LH, as far as Steve saying recon is harder. I really don't think that ever happened, but he is very, very often the reality check for people explaining that recon comes with it's own set of problems. Which it does. I've done both. I'm in the process of both. I don't know how I should phrase it. We're still piecing this MR back together. But in any case they both effing sukkk. They both hurt. They both involve an enormous mental and emotional load. The only thing that I can really say recon has the advantage over the D is the money. My god D is expensive. IC, and MC and all that comes with recon isn't cheap either, but that's an investment into yourselves and your future, but D, it's like just handing paycheck after paycheck directly to your L, your ex, sometimes your ex's L and your only payout is that once it's done it's done.
As far as this spat, personally both of you have had your serious jerk moments with me. Both of you have been incredibly kind to me. Both of you have challenged my thinking. And I think I've given both of you food for thought. Because of that I think both of your voices are super important here. Especially for LBHs and I think the juxtaposition of your two opinions is usually something really good for a person who is trying to find their footing in this mess. I do think the delivery could be better from both of you sometimes. And I do think that both of you let your personal feelings and convictions color what you say to people in a way that can be counter productive sometimes. Unique voices are important here but if you see something creating a visceral reaction in you, you need to realize you're a little too close to give healthy help and check out. Much like when I see an LBH who is a no fault LBH. I stay away. Because I'll say some mean things that don't help anybody.
I personally think Steve has come a long way since I've been here. He's softened a lot. He's gotten much better at gauging how what he says may affect a person's feelings before just saying, but yes still a little holy roller for my taste. But that's Steve.
I also think LH has come a long way with how he views WAS/WS. It's been a journey, and as black and white as you see things LH you've evolved, become more empathetic, and a little better at the 30,000 ft view. I think that's a feat.
I'm also on the don't just stop interacting because you get under each other's skin. We've had some really good convos because of this. Not just you two, but LH and I, and others.
Every body here has a thing. We just do. But I think there'd probably be a little less infighting if there was a little more introspection before hitting that post button.
I apologize WF. I didn't see your post, missed it completely somehow. When may agreed with you on something I went back and saw it.
I apologize for pushing back in your thread. I messed up. I should have respected your right to decide for yourself. I'll have to go back and read that and learn from it, but I offer you a sincere apology as well.
I will never ever apologize for being a holy roller. Its why I'm still alive today. I was a full blown alcoholic in my younger days. Waking up in bed having no idea how I got there many many mornings. Recommitting my life to Jesus Christ not only saved my soul, but I would be physically dead by now, no doubt in my mind, without Him. And maybe even worse, could have hurt or killed someone else in the process. It is core to who I am and I'll never ever shrink from that.
As far as infighting, despite LH's stalking, and passive-aggressiveness, or at times flat out personal attacks, I've done my best to ignore it, move past it, and be the bigger person. As I've said above, I've encountered a lot of LHs in the nearly 30 years of the Internet. I'm not here to argue and fight. He's says a lot of things I've flat out disagreed with, but unlike him I just go about doing my thing, trying to help LBSs see the light at the end of the tunnel. And that's what I will continue to do. Someone (I've lost track!) said that the different perspectives are good because there is a better chance someone will hit on something that helps the LBS move forward. That's the goal. And that's why, despite LH being severely crappy to me at times, I was one of the first to tell him to stick around when he announced he was leaving the board. I do not regret that. When he's not focused on me he actually gives some pretty solid advice to LBSs. I won't be reading it anymore just in case he decides its been too long since he gave me or CW crap. But I hope he continues to help LBSs just the same.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So WF I went back and read your first thread. I don't think I ignored that you draw your line in the sand in a different place, I think that I was just too thick headed to see that! Once you posted this post:
I got the point you were making and backed off. I do apologize that I didn't catch on sooner even though in hindsight I see you had already pretty much said it. My W would probably tell you that one of my biggest failings is that she has to tell me things more than once. I've tried to work on that and will continue to.
Last edited by SteveLW; 02/11/2204:32 AM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
May for kicks I went back and read your first thread. I thought you and I connected pretty well. I related a lot to your situation due to your marital dynamics pre-BD. I am really trying to grow here so if you could point to where I was harsh I'd appreciate it. I really do appreciate your perspective! Thanks for weighing in.
Last edited by SteveLW; 02/11/2205:01 AM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
and I have great respect for both LH and Steve...These two have probably given me more advice than anyone else, its appreciated and I'd hate to see them be anything but themselves, both have their strengths and weaknesses, like everyone...
I do hold back on responding when one of you gives advise agree with. Glad you both post what you do.
R2C, you know you're one of my favorite posters here! I hope you never leave man. Sincerely, thanks for all you do!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve I have come across many of you holier then throw types in my day and they are typically hypocrites. Believe it or not I have refrained from commenting quite of few times in regards to some of your posts. Again this entire thing started when you made the comment “ I don’t know how a PA isn’t a deal breaker for you LBS”. If you can’t see how that’s offensive then I’m not sure what to tell you.
May we’ve had some ups and downs for sure. The issue I had in your sitch is that you were forcing the recon and the remorse was there from your h. I think we have the same beliefs regarding keeping the family together. That’s what it was always about for me it was really about her which she probably sensed which is part of the reason I ended here.
There’s up and downs on this board all the time. We have laughs all the time and I’ve sat in my office with tears rolling down my face. I know I need to be better in certain areas and I will work on that moving forward.
I don't ever believe in kicking a person when they are down.
Steve it seems to me that you are remorseful in what has been seen as personal attacks.
I don't feel that you are all that bad, however I was feeling particularly bullied at the time I left this group.
The main reason was how much it was harped on why an LBS would take back a spouse after a PA.
Well, frankly none of us are perfect. And, in our lord Jesus Christ (as you like to point out you're a believer) we should be more forgiving of others. Again... giving out this mixed bag of your belief seems like your cotton picking on what suits you at the moment.
The bottom line is the OW was NEVER my competition. My only competition was myself. The affair was a symptom that something was wrong in my marriage that desperately needed addressed. I certainly did my part in cleaning up my side of the street... all I could do was wait to see if that would be enough for my partner to make the choice in working on our M.
Many who come here are suffering the betrayal of marriage with an EA or a PA. Looking for help and support and understanding. I would most definitely be amiss if I did not say that Steve you do give a lot of good advice and support and over time you have developed more of an understanding but unless a poster has specifically asked what you would if you were in there shoes... this whole statement of it being crazy nonsense for a LBS to take back a cheater should never ever be posted on anyone's thread but your own.
And, truth be told you don't ever know what you would truly do until your in that situation. So it again it comes across as you standing on a pulpit preaching Jesus... But, others have posted such scenarios to you and you have admitted you don't know what you would do.
I married my H (knowing his history in his first M) that I would work anything out but if he ever cheated he would gone. He knew that and believed that and even said at DDAY... he was just going to go sleep with someone so I would never want him back because it was my only deal breaker.
I had a lot of stuff to work through... even though it was my boundary before our M for me when I actually got there I could see how I had cluttered my side of the street and contributed to our issues. I had a lot of work to do but I could see forgiveness, understanding and love.
As for the beef with LH... he's just the opposite side of your pickle. You both have honest supportive intent he just comes from the opposite spectrum as you. You are like Yin and Yang with each other... LOL!!!
As for myself and everyone else on this board. Written/spoken words are only 7% of communicative language, 38% is tone of voice and 55% is body language. GUESS WHAT???? On an anonymous internet board we are only giving and getting that 7%. Black and white type on a page is lacking tone and body language and often times can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
Its Valentines Day Weekend... let's all show one another love.
KC, I should have bowed out of your situation much sooner than I did. It was obvious that your values are the polar opposite of mine and that you were not even really ever open to opposing viewpoints. I should have recognized that way earlier than I did. I am sorry to say that I feel you were one of the worst DBers I've seen here. I don't mean that as an insult or an attack, but an observation. You completely refused to even entertain the concept of detachment. Instead of conceding to that I tried a tough love approach with you.
But I do sincerely apologize. I should have stopped giving you advice when you obviously didn't want it. My intentions were pure. My methods were poor. I'm sorry you felt bullied, that was not my intention. I eventually learned to just stay out of your thread and let others try, but I did so way too late. Your situation was probably the one I most broke my own principles in trying to help others here, and as I've stated, I fully intend to do better from here on out. 2x4s worked wonders for me when I came to the forum, but my biggest learning in my attempt to help you was that they don't work for everyone.
I hope you've found some peace in your life. I sincerely mean that.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
You were the most frustrating DBer maybe ever. Half the time your stuff was so outrageous I didn’t think you were real. I will say for the most part you took 2x4s like a champ. You went a little off the rails in the end but to be honest with you I can’t wait for your update lol.
