Unsure where we are going

[BL42]

scaredA,

Prep yourself for the possibility she was chatting w/OM. My ExW would while we were in the same room. So uncomfortable and awkward. I probably should've handled it more strongly.

She may well be. What can I do if she is?

You can't do anything to make her stop. What you can do is control the way you act in response to her behavior.

If you have to do absolutely everything for those kids while you are trying to figure out what to do here in this MR you're going to just have to do it. Your kids come first. They are not pawns. They are not puppies. They are not neutral observers in this this situation. They are just as in the middle of chaos as you are and you trying to pawn them off on a person who doesn't want to deal with them to prove a point is kind of cruel. So what if she's doing less?

^This, 100%. The kids are your #1 responsibility. You're the parent. Make sure they're cared for.

I understand that they both had bruises, although I saw the photos of hers.

Huh?! If she's physically abusing your son, taking action would be a great 180.

The physical violence between your W and S is extremely concerning. If it happens again you need to intervene and stop it.

Your W is physically abusive to you and your children, neglects your children, it addicted to social media, sleeps with other dudes and tells you about it and it is so bad you basically went a year without talking to her. What exactly are you trying to save?

You will discover a lot if you take the time to ponder this question SA

Indeed.

[detachA]

Ok, quick update. I think yesterday was good. I had the day off work and she was back at work and the kids where at school.

I got up went to the gym. When the kids had dinner I sat with them and talked about their day. The wife was in the living room. I put the kids to bed. Went downstairs, wife was in living room on her phone, doing whatever! I sat in the living room and read my book, didnt start any conversation at all. We both sat in silence for about 1-1/2 hours. Her on phone, me reading. She then started to ask me about a birthday party for our youngest. I was polite and welcoming but didnt try to keep holding the conversation. She then talked about her work for a bit. Later she went upstairs and said goodnight.

It would seem you are getting into that zone that you are second guessing every action, conversation and thought about your wife. Every conversation, every little thing is being scrutinized. You can't keep this up for long. Why? It's exhausting. And...your wife can tell. She can see that you are dancing around her. Any change of behavior is, admit it or not, a way to change the outcome of this whole mess you're in. It makes her trust you less. To be honest, GAL, and being detached is very hard. How do you work hard at looking like you are not working hard? It's exhausting, bro. Very few people can be that Zen. Give yourself a break. Be yourself.

In my experience, unless you are a complete jerk, changing yourself, becoming your "best" self, doing 180's don't really last. Eventually you will revert to who you basically are. I've seen it on these boards before - intense personal change that lasts for 12, 18 or 24 mos and then you slip back. Sorry to say this, but it's inevitable. The divorce gets busted and then, 2 yrs later they are back on the boards and the marriage is toast. Personal change is super hard. If you're wife doesn't like who you are, might as well end it sooner than later. Again, if you're a real jerk and need serious help, get it. If you're just a normal guy, you aren't going to turn into superman. You can't save this marriage alone. Two people need to compromise and work at it. You will hear in the forums that 180's and being solution oriented are really just emergency measures to get their attention. GAL is for your own sanity. The real hard work of repairing a marriage is 50/50 and In the end, she has to want the marriage as much as you do.

I agree I cannot keep behaving like this forever. The issues of my being a jerk are, stonewalling and being extermely rude and critical when I get angry. I see these as being the two items that will need to remain changed over the long term. The rest of the 180s are as you say just emergency measures that cannot be kept up long term

[detachA]

I do not know how social you are, but If I were in your shoes, I would make it a goal to interact with everyone at the bbq, learn and remember as many of their names and "their story" as possible. Make it about them. DO NOT FOLLOW W around like a puppy dog. Most likely she will start following you. If you want more input on this, let us know.

This is exactly my plan. I am not the most sociable person and actually prefer sitting in the house reading, than going out to parties. My wife is very sociable. I definitely want some more input on this!

Here is my generic thought process:

#1) Are kids going with us? If not, who is watching the kids while both parents are out of the house? Who makes arrangements for a sitter (you or spouse)? This is an opportunity for some 180's. Most of the time the woman is dealing with this type of stuff in advance. BBQ is a little grey for me, but I believe kids are typically OK at BBQs. BUT, you might be able to talk to your parents or siblings and see if anyone is available. Lets say your mother says she can. Then:

H&W sitting in silence.
H:"My mom said she could watch the kids if we needed her while we went to your friends house for BBQ."

W:"The kids are going with us."
H:"Perfect. I will let mom know."

There may be many other responses. The important part is you get more information. There is less confusion at that point. You should

You also have other choices. Maybe it is more important to YOU that your kids be with your family while you are at BBQ with W's friends.

Then it goes like this:

H&W sitting in silence.
H:"I've arranged with my mom to watch the kids while we are at your friends house for BBQ."
W:"I wanted the kids with us."
H:"I believe it's best if the kids get some grandma time and we get some adult time"
Then validate. Do not argue. Stick to your guns about the importance of kid/grandma time etc.
(The ladies here may be able to elaborate on this)

#2) Style - How are you going to dress? I would dress a little more stylish than your normal. Something new that W has not seen you wear. Do not go overboard, but you should look sharp. You have two weeks to find something. You can also carry this idea into your normal everyday. Start dressing a little sharper than the "old you". I am a t-shirt, ball cap and shorts guy, but when I go out with my lady, it is jeans and a button up. Hair styled. I will pick an accent, Normally a necklace. Ladies almost always notice a guys shoes. If you are on a tight budget, new shoes and a nice shirt.


#3) Most likely you will get introduced to some people. Focus hard on remembering there name. That is the most important thing in any conversation. Pick something unique about them and tie it to your memory. John the guy with the cowboy hat. Sue with the polka dot handbag. Most people like to talk. I just listen to their stories and focus on tying all of it together. Name/story/our interaction/their unique identifier.

#4) Cold approaching others is similar. identify some things that are unique at the BBQ. Maybe they have 10 cats. You notice someone else near you looking at one of the cats. "I wonder if they all have names?" Could be a convo starter. After the cat talk, introduce yourself. Remember the guys name. Ask him who he knows here. Or better how he knows everyone. Remember their names and his story about them. Exchanging contact info with people you connect with is good.

#5) Ride home. (Pick up the kids??). My lady and I talk about the people we meet. This is level of talk you want with your lady. Gives you something to talk about on the ride home. Clarifies details in you mind.

H&W driving home in silence.
H:"John was interesting."
W most likely talks.

This is all gold R2C, especially the bit about the new clothes. Im gonna follow this up and enjoy myself when I go. Zero expectations, if she becomes curious, thats up to her.

[detachA]

So Scared I am just going to throw this are there regarding some of the facts of the case.

Your W is physically abusive to you and your children, neglects your children, it addicted to social media, sleeps with other dudes and tells you about it and it is so bad you basically went a year without talking to her. What exactly are you trying to save?

Google search: Rejection breeds obsession

I will look up rejection breeds obcession.

Also good question, what am I trying to save? Firstly, my family. I know that my kids will be devastated by a divorce. I am pretty sure that the oldest will want to be with me and the youngest with her. So even the kids wont be living together anymore. Deep down I really do love her, but I do not want the relationship we had back. I want things to be more open and understanding. I really want us to be a family. When times were better, she was a very good mother. I have treated/neglected her very badly. There is no excuse for her affair, but I can understand how things have developed the way they are.
When we met we were crazy about each other. My job finsihed and I left her country, we couldnt be together for eight months. My mother was dead set against her, as she was from a lower income country. We fought all of this, together, until we were eventually reunited and got married.

I really just want my family back. It is very hard at the moment. I have put in a cut off date, this cannot go on forever!

[detachA]

Unless your teen is barely 13 this is insane. His reactions have nothing to do with how "well" you two are doing. Your son learned how to handle his mother from you, but teenagers don't have the impulse control adults do. I won't deny there are women who physically abuse men. Nor will I deny there are mothers who will resort to physical discipline when their teenage sons become physical more looming than they are. But you set the example and he will follow it with all the logic and impulse control of a teenager. Which means next to none.

He was actually 12 last time it happened when they were on holiday together in July. He turned 13 in August. Im trying to set an example now. Im talking in calmer voice. I am descalating situations. I am telling him he cannot spoke to his mother like that when he is rude or swears at her. I am telling him it is ok to be angry, but not disrespectful. I know I should have been doing this years ago.

You're 6'2" you're almost a foot taller than this women and your way of handling her hitting you is to push her? You could practically step over her if you needed to. Look I'm not saying she probably didn't need a push here or there when she blocked you into a corner or was blocking a door way, because all abusers act the same regardless of gender. They corner you. So I know there are situations for better or worse where things like this happen. But you let this play out in front of your kids for how many years? On top of that you're trying to save your MR to a physically abusive partner for what? Why would you want that?

Its not just her hitting, she sometimes wrestles and thats when I need to push her off. The last time she hit me was round the head with her phone in July 2020. At that time I just walked off and said “I am not going to let you do that to me”. Maybe I am rewriting history, she may have a different recollection. It doesnt really happen between us in front of the kids. But my teen is bigger than her now and they wind each other up, escalating and escalating until they get physical. This hasnt happened since the holiday in July. I put it down to me intervening and deescalating the situation. Again she may feel differently about this.

I wouldnt say see is generally physically abusive, she can get carried away sometimes with her temper. Hi also loose my temper, but I get verbally abusive. I am working on this. I do not want the old relationship back. Things need to change from both sides. But, its only me who wants it at the moment.

Lastly good on you for trying to deescalate but you'd be better served showing your son how to get out of these situation with his mother instead of mitigating the problem for him, because whether or not you save this marriage that woman will be his mother for the rest of his life, and you may get her keep her hands to herself, but it's a long road to stop the train that she willingly starts moving to get conversations heated enough to get to that point.

Im trying to teach him to pick his battles, rather than making everything a point to fight over. I know a lot of things need to be resolved. Things need to progress glacially slowly. We have been in this positon before and when things start to improve we revert to normal and 6 months later -BANG- back to the same situation. If things improve, if ever, I need to keep focus on the speed. However I do not feel I can currently discuss the underlying issues at the moment, these can only be discussed when she is aligned with working on the MR (if she ever will be)

Hi yeah, it's a seesaw when you have two willing participants in a MR that allow an imbalance to happen in the relationship. And those same two willing participants want to rectify that situation. That is currently not the case in your relationship. You're still only working with one fully willing participant. You can't force her to be a good parent. Nor can you force her to parent those kids if she doesn't want to. If you have to do absolutely everything for those kids while you are trying to figure out what to do here in this MR you're going to just have to do it. Your kids come first. They are not pawns. They are not puppies. They are not neutral observers in this this situation. They are just as in the middle of chaos as you are and you trying to pawn them off on a person who doesn't want to deal with them to prove a point is kind of cruel. So what if she's doing less? What if she wants so badly out of the MR she flees the country tomorrow and it's just you and the kids? Then what? Are you going to sit and wait until she gets back to parent? Are you going to do only 1/2 the parenting?

You need to be living your life "as if" right now. As if she isn't part of your MR or your family life. As if you two were still in separate households. If she wants to participate so be it. If she doesn't, fine. She doesn't guide or direct the course of the household. You do because you will do so with the safety and stability of your children in mind. She will exist in parallel to it. You include her if and when you feel like it, but you plan for her not to include her self.

I understand you don't want to live like you were when you were in separate households but you don't have that luxury. She's not all in. And until she is you need to stop acting like you can trick her into being the wife and mother you want her to be. You're just going to have to do everything for the kids and hope she chooses to be a part of their lives in a meaningful way.

Her being in the home doesn't really change you're circumstances. The sooner you accept that the easier this is going to be for you.

I love your posts wayfarer, I really do. Dont get my wrong I am fully devoted to the kids, just sometimes I cannot do two things at once (making lunches and putting them to bed). I will try and practice your “As If” advice above

[detachA]

Huh?! If she's physically abusing your son, taking action would be a great 180.

I have been trying to step up to the plate on this. So far peace has held between them for three months

Yes, I can see controlling behavior (telling her what she should or should not do) ending in an argument. You control you. She controls her (as long as she isn't abusive). Good job!

Thanks, I was pleased with myself. She even didnt continue to go on about it as she usually would.

I wonder if you see the opposite of arguing and controlling her (aggressive behavior), as doing what she wants (passive behavior)? Obviously, not all McDonalds are the same or your wife and son wouldn't be disagreeing about which one to go to. WHOSE McDonalds did you go to in peace? This exchange isn't a big deal, but note favoring one over the other also isn't a big win for dealing with conflict or teaching your son how to deal with conflict. Happy Meal food for thought.

No I dont think I see it as opposite. The argument was over distance from the house. The one she wanted was closer. I think it was you who previously said about one of our discussions “It doesnt need to be a hill to die over”, that was what I thought about this issue. I even said to my son “We are going to A McDonalds regardless, it really doesnt need to be something we are going to have fight over”. We went to her choice, as a matter of record.

[detachA]

You can't do anything to make her stop. What you can do is control the way you act in response to her behavior.

My comment was more rhetorical. I agree with you. What do you wish you had done stronger in that situation? I cannot be sure she is txting him, so I have just kept quiet about it. She may just he on instagram.

If you have to do absolutely everything for those kids while you are trying to figure out what to do here in this MR you're going to just have to do it. Your kids come first. They are not pawns. They are not puppies. They are not neutral observers in this this situation. They are just as in the middle of chaos as you are and you trying to pawn them off on a person who doesn't want to deal with them to prove a point is kind of cruel. So what if she's doing less?

^This, 100%. The kids are your #1 responsibility. You're the parent. Make sure they're cared for.

Huh?! If she's physically abusing your son, taking action would be a great 180.

The physical violence between your W and S is extremely concerning. If it happens again you need to intervene and stop it.[\quote]

I have been trying to intervene before it gets that far.

[detachA]

Just throwing this out there, for all the good feedback. Im thinking of asking her if she would be interested in attending a DB coach. Im thinking about doing it in this manner.

Time after kids are in bed (I find this a better time to ask questions). Wait till she approaches me about something, not me initiating the comms. Use a soft startup

M: I have been attending MC for three months now. I feel it has been really helping me to individually work through some of the issues in our relationship. In my opinion it has been well worthwhile for my own sanity and to understand my role in what is happening.
I would like to ask you if you would also be interested in attending MC either on your own or with me.
I think initially it would be better to attend on your own. I would be happy to pick up the cost of it. You do not have to answer me know, just have a think about it.


If she immediatly says No, I will not push matter. I will just say “Ok, I will continue to go myself and if you change your mind at a later date please just let me know.

The i will stop the conversation.

Is this a really bad idea?

[detachA]

New thread here

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2925898&#Post2925898

[BL42]

Just throwing this out there, for all the good feedback. Im thinking of asking her if she would be interested in attending a DB coach.

You may want to be careful specifically referencing Divorce Busting (DB) / Divorce Remedy (DR) / Michele Weiner-Davis in case she comes across this forum and recognizes your sitch. Probably best not for her to read through this thread.

I'll leave the general MC question to others, but the typical consensus is make sure both of you are "all-in" on fixing the marriage before entering into counseling, and it doesn't sound to me like she is...it sounds like you're trying to "take action" to "fix things" because you want progress and she's not ready.