Unsure where we are going

[Ready2Change]

W: Starts R talk
Me: Talking about the relationship makes me feel really upset. I would rather we do not continue this talking about this subject. If the subject carries on I am going to have to remove myself from the conversation and talk to you later.

Is this actions or words?

If you do need to speak....less words is almost always better.

[Ready2Change]

Is this the list?

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777879#Post2777879

YES

[detachA]

Hi SA,

I'm not going to call you by your handle. I understand you feel that way, but I don't know that that moniker is going to do anything positive for you in the long run.

I'm going to be slightly more forgiving than the guys because I strongly believe everyone needs to DB in their own way, and that mistakes are meant as learning tools. They aren't catastrophes. But I'm also here to reinforce a lot of what they say.

I really appreciate your post wayfarer

You need to detach. You have no way of knowing how "in" she is until she's all in. This is a cat and mouse game that can last ad infinitum if you allow it to. The longer you tie how you feel, and what you want to the day to day roller coaster that she was/is/will be dragging you on the harder it's going to be to for you to emotionally regulate, relax, sleep, eat, care for the kids and yourself, and make an decisions about your life. Detaching isn't about giving up on the MR or your hope for it to make it. It is purely about your survival in this chaos. Do not let her drive the bus you're on. She's already driving the bus of your MR. You need to separate the two as soon as possible.

I really need to read up on how detatch more. I am trying not to initiate any conversation, but to be polite and ready to listen when she talks to me. She seems to have no interest even in looking after the kids at the moment. If I do not put them to bed she lets them sit up till midnight. She spends no time on the kids homework, even though one of them is really struggling in school. I find that I cannot sit idly by with this and devote a lot of time to the kids, which just lets her have more time to go out in the evening. Not sure what to do.

There will be a lot of talk of respect and allowing disrespect, and all of that. My personal opinion is respect is subjective and just the action of cheating is disrespect. So clearly we're already allowing things we normally wouldn't, so where's the line? I don't know that that can be easily defined so what you really need to focus on is your boundaries. What will you engage with and what won't you engage with.

Im going to develop some boundaries and put them up here for feedback.

The reality here is if you stonewalled, you'll have to overcome that at some point but that point would be after recon. Not before. Not engaging isn't stonewalling. Not engaging is refusing to be dragged along for the ride. This is a pick your battles moment. You are well within your rights to say "I'm not doing this right now," when she wants to talk about the R or a D or her A(s) or all the things she'd like you to change, whatever. I was in an IHS for a while, while my H was having an active EA/PA. Once I was able to start working on detachment I lived my life parallel to his. He was my roommate, and a co-parent when he could muster the will to do so. I never stopped loving him. I never gave up on our MR. But I wasn't going to be his pal, and I certainly wasn't going to be his wife. I gave myself the physical and mental space to not engage if I didn't want to. I was in the MBR alone. I was in there alone until he asked permission to return. And he didn't even dare to do so until he was sure he was all in. I had told him the rules from the beginning. He was welcome back anytime so long as no one else was in that bedroom with us. I also only engaged in conversations that were about the kids, bills and/or running the household, he would occasionally rope me in in MR and D talks but it was rare and if I could get out of it I would. Those were some of my lines in the sand. The MBR I articulated, the space I required from him wasn't a conversation we had I just did it. Boundaries will run the gamut. I strongly suggest you read through that thread regularly.

I hear what you are saying. But I haven't been in the MBR for one year and I stonewalled for the majority of that time. If I detach too much will it not just appear that I am stonewalling again. We have had next to no communication this whole year until around 3rd September. Currently we are talking most days, kids, her job and a few other things. I am mostly listening and validating. Trying not to escalate if the subject in controversial i.e. she was talking about the Israeli/Palestine conflict yesterday which I didn't agree with, I just let things slide. Previously I would have tried to convince her she was wrong.
Would the ideal balance now be not to detach completely, but to not initiate the vast majority of conversation?

I also strongly suggest you start thinking about a drop dead date. SteveLW got my wheels turning pretty early on about how long I could live the way I was living, and how long I was willing to let our kids live in that kind of environment. How long did I need to to feel like I gave it this my best shot and if H walked it was on him? Based on what Steve said I decided 1 year from the start of the A. H had 1 year to figure out what he wanted and after that I was going to take back control of my life completely. I was going to be the person deciding my future. That alone, gave me a sense of power back in the chaos. It reminded me of who I was before all of this.

I think you are right. I am going to have to give this some thought.

The other thing I will say is I don't necessarily agree with that Sandi's 37 rules are the end all be all of WWs as I was one in my first MR. And I've known a few in my life. But until you can detach enough that you aren't willing to do literally anything to save the MR but are willing to do literally anything to save yourself in this Sandi's rules are imperative. And they supersede anything I could tell you.

Im not really sure I know what you mean here. Can you please expand on this?

Honestly I don't how much I believe in the plan A plan B thing either. But I do know that if you focus your self improvement around how W acts and reacts you aren't improving yourself. You're kowtowing to someone who's treating you poorly. And that kind of behavior isn't self respect and it certainly isn't self love. No one can love you if you don't learn how to love yourself. Whether that be W or someone new. W has knocked down your self confidence, she's made you question your reality, your future, your sanity. And that's not counting the damage you did to yourself in the years prior. Do you really know who you are right now? Do you know your place in the world outside of this MR? A broken, uncertain version of you won't survive this. You need to fix that. These scenarios only have 2 outcomes, recon or D. And you're only focus should be regardless of what happens how do I become the person I want to be going forward?

Im trying to do this, I am really confused at the moment. Most days I want to fix the MR, some days I am just so angry with her that I want to scream. I need to detatch and jsut work on the changes for myself.

I also wanted to comment on the nice things you keep doing for WW. A lot of men do a lot of things for a payoff. And they think the "nice" things they do will win them points, favor or my favorite of all that they are then entitled to reciprocal action. Doing things for a payoff, isn't nice. Doing things for a payoff with a WW will get you know where but hurt or angry or both. Doing nice things with expectations or doing literally anything with expectations of anyone but especially a WW will set you both up for failure every single time. And once you're there then you have to start asking yourself who is causing you more strife, WW or you? That's not a place to be if you're still emotionally fragile. That will turn inward and get ugly, it will be become bitterness, and you'll never get to move on in either direction.

I'm trying to do nice things because I have been so distant for a long time and this has hurt the MR and the kids. Ultimately I want the nice things to become part of my core, so that I am not doing them to be nice, I am just doing them because that is what I want to do.

[detachA]

Not sure we are misaligned here. I agree with everything. However, I do think SA needs to stop letting her scream at him. He isn't her dad, but neither is she his mother. She needs to be conditioned that screaming doesn't result in what she wants, vs. now where screaming gets her her way. Bad dynamic.

Just to clarify, she wasn't screaming, I could just tell by her tone of voice that she was starting to get angry. I thought it was better not to escalate as it was over nothing really.

The next time she does scream, I am already planning to deploy something similar to what you said.

[detachA]

He said raise her voice. I've learned that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.

For my exH raising my voice would be me getting so heated and reacting to him I would literally scream. He would poke and poke and poke until I got there so he could prove to himself that I was crazy, irrational, and clearly not as logical and calm as him. It's a type of gaslighting. It's a fun party time had for all.

For my current H raising my voice could be something as little as me rising to meet his decibel level or having a little heat behind my words with intonation never actually raising my voice.

First and foremost a person has to self assess. Am I perceiving this worse than it actually is? If so why?

If it's not reactionary and is what's actually happening and she's a yeller, there are simple solutions:

She comes in yelling "I'm going to need you to start over." Usually it's disarming enough they will but if not you say "Ok so we'll talk about this when we can speak calmly to each other." And then leave the room.

She raises her voices even if you're calm: "I'm not having this conversation if this is how it's going to go." And let her play out how it's going to go if she screams walk away if she talks move on.

You raise your voice and she reacts, possibly disproportionately: "I'm sorry, I got heated. Can we rewind?" And then repeat what you yelled but calmly. Once again let her take the lead. If she continues screaming walk away. If she's calm you stay calm.

Just like boundaries you don't need to announce every single time "You can't talk to me like that" or "I won't be spoken to like that." Showing your boundaries with your feet is equally if not more effective.

Good advice, Im going to print this out and add it to my marriage book with all the other good advice

[Traveler]

To be honest I do not believe she would ever leave, she cannot get a divorce in this country without my approval and she cannot move out as she cannot afford it. So she will just carry on cake eating and trying to hook up with other men.

I wanted to highlight this--you say your wife asked months ago for divorce but she is trapped. You say you believe she advertised the affairs in hopes that you would set her free.

[detachA]

W: Starts R talk
Me: Talking about the relationship makes me feel really upset. I would rather we do not continue this talking about this subject. If the subject carries on I am going to have to remove myself from the conversation and talk to you later.

Is this actions or words?

If you do need to speak....less words is almost always better.

So you are saying I should just get up and leave? Without saying anything?

[detachA]

To be honest I do not believe she would ever leave, she cannot get a divorce in this country without my approval and she cannot move out as she cannot afford it. So she will just carry on cake eating and trying to hook up with other men.

I wanted to highlight this--your wife asked long ago for divorce but is literally trapped. You believe she advertised the affairs to you in hopes that you would approve a divorce.

Yes, that is my understanding of the current situation. She has mentioned a few times that I should realise she told me about it in the belief that I would immediately proceed for divorce. Whenever the A is brought up, she says I shouldn't go on about it as it takes her back to that place, where she just wanted out.

Part of the reason I am confused is that within two months of my doing the LRT technique she is discussing living in the same rented property for another year. I'm not sure if this is from the LRT or because OM has fobbed her off currently.

However at the moment we have been communicating for over two months.

[wayfarer]

W: Starts R talk
Me: Talking about the relationship makes me feel really upset. I would rather we do not continue this talking about this subject. If the subject carries on I am going to have to remove myself from the conversation and talk to you later.

Oh hunny no.

If you shut her down immediately you're not hearing the information that you probably need. We really see 2 kind of WS around here the ones who won't talk about the relationship at all and the ones who will absolutely under no circumstance shut up about the relationship. In either case if you have the mental wherewithal to sit through it there's usually pertinent information in there, about their state of mind, about where you stand, about what they're next move it. Sometimes just sometimes little nuggets of truth about where you might have been failing her in the MR previously. If you can successfully actively listen and validate and she wants to talk about the R you gotta let her do it.

If you can't handle listening to it you don't announce it. She's well aware of the fact that she's upsetting you. Clearly your feelings aren't exactly on the top of her priority list right now, so what is the point in a drawn out explanation of why you can't participate in a conversation? You find an excuse to leave the conversation. You change the subject. You find a reason to leave the house. You flat out tell her unless it's about the kids or the household you're not having that conversation right now.

Boundaries are not usually articulated they are actions used to protect your psyche. Yes you do have to articulate some boundaries but those are almost always physical boundaries like, "You are not allowed to sleep in this bed with me as long as you're entertaining the idea of sleeping with other people." And you have to be very careful that your boundary are things that you won't do not things she's not allowed to do. She is not welcome in the bed because you won't sleep next to her, not she isn't allowed to sleep next to you as a punishment. It should be ONLY about you respecting yourself more than to lay next to a person who would rather be laying next to someone else. Boundaries are about you. Emotional and mental boundaries don't need to be articulated to the other person because it isn't about them it's about you. What you are willing and not will to do or participate in. If you don't want to have an R convo don't have it. You don't need a monologue listing why or giving her an ultimatum over a conversation. That's not a boundary. That's control. This is very nuanced and it's a little hard at first, but the key is, you doing what you need to do for your well being, NOT you trying to control your W or the situation.

She seems to have no interest even in looking after the kids at the moment. If I do not put them to bed she lets them sit up till midnight. She spends no time on the kids homework, even though one of them is really struggling in school. I find that I cannot sit idly by with this and devote a lot of time to the kids, which just lets her have more time to go out in the evening. Not sure what to do.

I'm not real clear on how you don't know what to do. Be a father. Put them to bed, help them with their homework, and worry about you. You're W's husband not her dad. If she's going to go out, she's going to go out. You trying to stop her is going to build resentment and contempt. More than she already has. On top of that you'd rather your kids be neglected so you can control your W than pick up the slack and do what needs to be done for them? Your kids and you are your top 2 priorities right now. No amount of treating you're wife like a child is going to stop her from doing anything or save your marriage. Nor will it give your kids the stability they desperately need. Step up and stop prioritizing your pain over your kids.

Previously I would have tried to convince her she was wrong.
Would the ideal balance now be not to detach completely, but to not initiate the vast majority of conversation?

I'm trying to be sensitive and bridge the cultural gap here, but you're not making it easy.

First of all do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Do you want to prove a point or do you want peace. Ask you're self that every day multiple times a day. I think you need that.

Stop over thinking your next step. Detach. Let her start the convos. Worry about you. GAL. You want a chance at recon you need to accept you have control over only one thing in this situation and it's you.

I'm trying to do nice things because I have been so distant for a long time and this has hurt the MR and the kids. Ultimately I want the nice things to become part of my core, so that I am not doing them to be nice, I am just doing them because that is what I want to do.

I call BS. Sorry. I'm not seeing any evidence to point in the direction you're trying to steer me. You're doing nice things because you think you can nice her back. And that my friend is a payoff.

If you really want kindness and generosity to be part of your core you spread that every where you go. And you focus it a lot on those little people of yours.

[detachA]

Oh hunny no.

If you shut her down immediately you're not hearing the information that you probably need. We really see 2 kind of WS around here the ones who won't talk about the relationship at all and the ones who will absolutely under no circumstance shut up about the relationship. In either case if you have the mental wherewithal to sit through it there's usually pertinent information in there, about their state of mind, about where you stand, about what they're next move it. Sometimes just sometimes little nuggets of truth about where you might have been failing her in the MR previously. If you can successfully actively listen and validate and she wants to talk about the R you gotta let her do it.

If you can't handle listening to it you don't announce it. She's well aware of the fact that she's upsetting you. Clearly your feelings aren't exactly on the top of her priority list right now, so what is the point in a drawn out explanation of why you can't participate in a conversation? You find an excuse to leave the conversation. You change the subject. You find a reason to leave the house. You flat out tell her unless it's about the kids or the household you're not having that conversation right now.

Thanks wayfarer you are starting to knock me into shape. She is one that very rarely will talk about the R. When she does I need to really focus just on listening and validation. After the staycation we had, she has totally retreated today. I just went out and had lunch and went to the cinema.

Boundaries are not usually articulated they are actions used to protect your psyche. Yes you do have to articulate some boundaries but those are almost always physical boundaries like, "You are not allowed to sleep in this bed with me as long as you're entertaining the idea of sleeping with other people." And you have to be very careful that your boundary are things that you won't do not things she's not allowed to do. She is not welcome in the bed because you won't sleep next to her, not she isn't allowed to sleep next to you as a punishment. It should be ONLY about you respecting yourself more than to lay next to a person who would rather be laying next to someone else. Boundaries are about you. Emotional and mental boundaries don't need to be articulated to the other person because it isn't about them it's about you. What you are willing and not will to do or participate in. If you don't want to have an R convo don't have it. You don't need a monologue listing why or giving her an ultimatum over a conversation. That's not a boundary. That's control. This is very nuanced and it's a little hard at first, but the key is, you doing what you need to do for your well being, NOT you trying to control your W or the situation.

Noted, I will up my boundaries tomorrow. I would appreciate some feedback on how I can action them.

She seems to have no interest even in looking after the kids at the moment. If I do not put them to bed she lets them sit up till midnight. She spends no time on the kids homework, even though one of them is really struggling in school. I find that I cannot sit idly by with this and devote a lot of time to the kids, which just lets her have more time to go out in the evening. Not sure what to do.

I'm not real clear on how you don't know what to do. Be a father. Put them to bed, help them with their homework, and worry about you. You're W's husband not her dad. If she's going to go out, she's going to go out. You trying to stop her is going to build resentment and contempt. More than she already has. On top of that you'd rather your kids be neglected so you can control your W than pick up the slack and do what needs to be done for them? Your kids and you are your top 2 priorities right now. No amount of treating you're wife like a child is going to stop her from doing anything or save your marriage. Nor will it give your kids the stability they desperately need. Step up and stop prioritizing your pain over your kids.

This point wasnt really about trying to stop her going out. it was more that I am struggling to GAL as she is not pulling her weight with the kids. I have a 2 hour commute and I come home and the kids have not eaten, the laundry is not done and the kids haven't done their homework. Once I do all that it is time for bed, really struggling to action GAL.

Previously I would have tried to convince her she was wrong.
Would the ideal balance now be not to detach completely, but to not initiate the vast majority of conversation?

I'm trying to be sensitive and bridge the cultural gap here, but you're not making it easy.

First of all do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? Do you want to prove a point or do you want peace. Ask you're self that every day multiple times a day. I think you need that.

Stop over thinking your next step. Detach. Let her start the convos. Worry about you. GAL. You want a chance at recon you need to accept you have control over only one thing in this situation and it's you.

I'm really trying to do that, I didn't initiate any conversation today with her. My wife has a very strong character and she can go days without saying anything, so I am not really sure how to strike a fine balance with this.