The one time she spoke to me today she asked for some cream for my younger sons mosquito bites. I told her to give him an anti-histamine as the doctor had told me that last time. She started to raise her voice and said "What do you mean, do you think the dr fixed it. I bought some cream last time and that fixed it". I was about to argue and say "Well thats what the Dr said". However I thought why bother and I said "So can we use the cream you bought again?". She lowered her voice tone and said "I will go an buy some". I think this is a real 180 compared to how we used to talk to each other.
Hmmm. I see a spoiled WW that got her way. I agree you shouldn't argue, but the real test is when you stand your ground on something.
"You can use the cream, or you can follow the dr's advice. However, I refuse to stand here and be yelled at about it." Then walkaway.
Yeah and before I check out I'm going to totally disagree with this. Sorry, Steve.
You're not her dad. Do not turn a small spat in to a hill to die on. I think you handled it ok. Not great but ok. Every single little spike in emotion does not require you to react or to be used as a "teachable moment" for your W. Like an angsty teen she will not learn to respect you she'll only learn to resent you more if you do that. That's why I say you handled it fine. You deescalated. That's what was important in the moment. No fuel added to the you're a crappy H and we can't get along so why should we be married file.
The only thing I would've said, is "Ok, what ever you think is best," in as flat an affect as you could muster with out being passive aggressive and be done with the conversation. If it isn't a medical emergency and there's no harm in her solution vs yours so be it. This is good practice for dealing with her in the near future and it's good practice for you in co-parenting should this situation find it's way to a D.
Not sure we are misaligned here. I agree with everything. However, I do think SA needs to stop letting her scream at him. He isn't her dad, but neither is she his mother. She needs to be conditioned that screaming doesn't result in what she wants, vs. now where screaming gets her her way. Bad dynamic.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
He said raise her voice. I've learned that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.
For my exH raising my voice would be me getting so heated and reacting to him I would literally scream. He would poke and poke and poke until I got there so he could prove to himself that I was crazy, irrational, and clearly not as logical and calm as him. It's a type of gaslighting. It's a fun party time had for all.
For my current H raising my voice could be something as little as me rising to meet his decibel level or having a little heat behind my words with intonation never actually raising my voice.
First and foremost a person has to self assess. Am I perceiving this worse than it actually is? If so why?
If it's not reactionary and is what's actually happening and she's a yeller, there are simple solutions:
She comes in yelling "I'm going to need you to start over." Usually it's disarming enough they will but if not you say "Ok so we'll talk about this when we can speak calmly to each other." And then leave the room.
She raises her voices even if you're calm: "I'm not having this conversation if this is how it's going to go." And let her play out how it's going to go if she screams walk away if she talks move on.
You raise your voice and she reacts, possibly disproportionately: "I'm sorry, I got heated. Can we rewind?" And then repeat what you yelled but calmly. Once again let her take the lead. If she continues screaming walk away. If she's calm you stay calm.
Just like boundaries you don't need to announce every single time "You can't talk to me like that" or "I won't be spoken to like that." Showing your boundaries with your feet is equally if not more effective.
I agree with Wayfarer. If I had to walk away from my exw every time she raised her voice especially when it came to the kids we never would have gotten anything accomplished.
For boundaries I would start with the sexy time talk with other dudes. That would make me flip my $hit but that's just me.
I dont really want to go for the full "You cannot see other men or we need to separate boundary" just yet.
Hi guy--I like wayfarer's refusal to call you that name--I know you are not planning to deploy this, but I wanted to call out that the above is not a boundary. Who do boundaries control? YOU! Who does the above attempt to control? WE! (You AND Her.) Stop trying to control her. You don't control what she does. You do control what you accept and for how long.
Why am I quick to spot this? For the longest time my ex and I--we reconciled for a year but ultimately parted ways--would argue about what WE should do. Once I realized what was happening--assuming we're not bound together e.g. in a car or double kayak--the answer was as simple as sometimes breaking down WE into YOU and I. WE is a choice. (:
Originally Posted by LH
I would have divorced my ex the minute I found her texting my neighbor. Just something I would never tolerate again.
LH is talking boundaries. His proposed action protects him, the focus is not on the announcement, and carries no expectations for her. You don't have to have the same boundary, of course! Few LBS spouse here have dumped their partner immediately after learning about a PA. However, this is a great example of what a sample boundary would look like.
Read here. Read a lot. Dig in the archives. I found a lot of what I needed to hear going in the way back machine. The support here from vets is helpful, especially in the immediate, but every voice is colored by their story, and sometimes you just need a lot more perspective than can be offered by the few of us who still comment to newbies.
Walking off to cool down is actually advised by Gottman, whom I know you're studying. Apologizing when you're wrong is great--take care not to over-apologize for other reasons.
Yes the apology was for me raising my voice and walking off. BL42 thinks I was weak for doing this, but may DB coach says I should apologise immediately if I revert to my old behaviours.
I agree with apologizing immediately if you behave badly. My point is that walking off when you couldn't handle the situation emotionally (found yourself raising your voice) is NOT behaving badly. It's what Gottman describes as model behavior, the antidote to stonewalling--
Originally Posted by "Gottman: Antidote to Stonewalling"
Let each other know when you’re feeling overwhelmed.
Then, you need to walk away and do something soothing on your own. This break should last at least twenty minutes since it will take that much time for your bodies to physiologically calm down.
Raising your voice when you're upset and walking away to cool off are normal. Apologizing to placate someone else when you haven't behaved badly looks weak. Now, if you actually SCREAMED at her, or did any 4 horsemen behaviors, apologizing and focusing on those makes sense. You didn't cop to such misbehaviors in your post, so we noted possible over-apologizing.
Do not let the emotional state of other people (For example your W) change your emotional state.
Some here say to set a boundary if W is yelling at you (and walk away). That is one choice, and it is perfectly fine to do that, especially if you may react emotionally.
I feel another option is to calmly "handle it", listen/validate. Vets from the past called it "putting on your raincoat" and let the venom fly and roll off you like "water off a ducks back". It takes self control to do this, especially if your "normal" interaction was to argue. This may be a sign of strength to her. Just another option. I would love to here Wayfarer views on this.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I feel another option is to calmly "handle it", listen/validate. Vets from the past called it "putting on your raincoat" and let the venom fly and roll off you like "water off a ducks back". It takes self control to do this, especially if your "normal" interaction was to argue. This may be a sign of strength to her. Just another option. I would love to here Wayfarer views on this.
I'd be on board with this if he was a little further along in the process. If he can sit there and take it without internalizing it, I'm for it. But the fact that he's still so deeply attached and his actions and reactions are attached to hers I don't know if this is something worthwhile right at this moment.
I know I did this with my H more than once. Even when I was still pretty raw and attached. But I was able to do so because I had to do with my step-father and exH a lot. It's very hard to not take things to heart or personally or worry they are using this as points against you for what ever reason. And if you're not clear headed and strong it's very hard to maintain the direction of de-escalation. Also there's always a chance they take this as something other than strength. A WS can (and we've seen it) as you being pathetic for just sitting there and taking it. Or in my case with most men I've been in heated arguments with behaving like this I was seen as being a patronizing b!tch. You have to be in a place mentally and emotionally where what's going through their head isn't of a concern to you. Where just getting that conversation deescalated and ensuring it is as productive as possible are the only things that matter.
If SA is there, sure. Let's raincoat away. If not, this is more so a goal instead of tool. When the time is right it can be a tool.
I agree. I think SA you should gauge your own emotions. If you can handle it and stay firm, rational and calm.....then do so. The minute you start to feel yourself losing control, you end the conversations and walk away.
In fact, SA, I think you could really learn the skill of being the one to end conversations in general, even when she isn't be belligerent. You keep mentioning LRT. LRT is a method where by you limit your interactions with the WAS. It is usually only applied in cases of physical separation, not in-home separation. But the principal you could take from that is limiting your interaction with her. One of the best ways is to be the one to end the conversation. If you were GAL like you should that might be a lot easier to do.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
All of these posts I see very little GAL (I think you said you went out for a few hours one night.) So let me ask you, when is your next GAL activity? Just you going out with friends, her staying home with the kids.
I went to the cinema tonight. I plan on getting up tomorrow for a jog and I am arranging to meet a new friend at the bar on Friday night. Tomorrow with are both taking the kids canoeing on a prearranged day trip. I will just spend my time there focusing on the kids.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
I know you are working hard on self-improvements. That is great, except are you doing that for you or her? Are you making these self-improvements to be the best version of you? Or are you doing it because you want positive reaction for her? What if she was against you going to IC? Would you stop? I know you mentioned she supports it, but what if she didn't? Stop making decisions based on her. Do things because they are best for you and your kids!
Thats a good question. I hope it is for me and the kids. I have noticed I am doing 180s with the kids, even when she is not around. As for IC, I was going before she knew about it. I will continue going even if she stops supporting it.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
And finally, learn what detachment is. Work on it. Stop being so on the hook to her and her emotions. Learn how to be happy yourself, regardless of her and her state of mind.
This one is real difficult. I really need to read up on detachment so that I can disengage my mind from her mind.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
You mention her and her state of mind, ALL THE TIME! "We went to bed not in a very good mood." "She got upset...." My reaction each time is: SO WHAT? She lost the opportunity to be happy or upset about things related to marriage when she slept with someone else. SHE should be the one begging to come back. She should be the one working to come back to the marriage. Until she sees what life without you would look like, she will continue to cake-eat.
So I am not really sure how to approach this. I assume I should just focus on myself and stop worrying what her reaction is. Although I should still avoid the four horsemen.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
No LBS has ever come here and regretted DBing. The LBSs that have come back here and expressed regrets were the ones that refused to take the advice they were given. "I wish I had listened" is stated by more LBSs than I can tell you. It is your situation, you get to decide how to handle it no matter what anyone here says. But I can tell you that trying to nice your WAS/WS back will not work. So you DB. It may make her mad. So what. You aren't trying to DB to please her, you are trying to DB to do what is best for you. She will either change her mind and want to come back to the marriage, or she won't. But you standing up for yourself will command respect either way. Remember, you teach people how to treat you. So far you've taught her to treat you like garbage, and she can do whatever she wants. That is the dynamic you have to start changing.
And the start of this will be setting some boundaries?
Originally Posted by SteveLW
An attractive scaredA is the one that refuses to accept bad behavior. Next time she starts an R talk, just make an excuse why you cannot have the discussion and walk away. Next time she protests that you are going out and she has to stay home with the kids, listen and validate. Then go out! If she ever says "buy me this or I am leaving", your response should be "do you need any help packing?"
There has been no request to buy stuff or she is leaving. She asked for the bag as the start of our communication beginning again. To be honest I do not believe she would ever leave, she cannot get a divorce in this country without my approval and she cannot move out as she cannot afford it. So she will just carry on cake eating and trying to hook up with other men. To counteract that I really need to set some boundaries. In your example above with the R talk, would this kind of thing be acceptable.
W: Starts R talk Me: Talking about the relationship makes me feel really upset. I would rather we do not continue this talking about this subject. If the subject carries on I am going to have to remove myself from the conversation and talk to you later.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Please read sandi's writings here. WWs in particular require a tough love approach. Read sandi's 37 rules. I kept a copy of them with me at all times. I read them daily and studied them to memorize them. Start putting them into practice, you will feel much better for it.
