My Story P3...Acceptance of the MLC Madness

[DnJ]

Yes, Eagle is not in US nor Canada.

Always check and ensure the various laws of whatever locale you are divorcing in.

[Eagle3]

Thank you kml, DnJ and BL42 for your clarification.

My message may not have been clear enough, hence some additional information.

And yes, I mixed the term child support and alimony, my mistake.

Alimony: Where I live, if both partners work, then no alimony is paid by default. Each is self-supporting, even if one person earns more than the other. So I can't take this into account.

Custody and child support: By default, the country where I live says week/week. Child support is calculated according to the number of days the children are with the partners and according to the remuneration of the partners. A handy tool calculates this very correctly and this counts by law.

The financial accounts have all been divided already, no discussion here either.

The house is not up for discussion, here too we have an agreement, it is 50/50. If, of course, he can't buy, then a sale will follow, but then we'll see where we end up but yet again, it remains 50/50.
the furniture is also arranged

Where I live, you try to arrange everything as much as possible by mutual consent.
As soon as lawyers are openly involved, it becomes a long process.
I want to avoid this for the children, because then they will temporarily have to follow the normal procedure and this means 50/50 custody, until everything is arranged. The children are of course heard, but this is only when the trial is in progress and the arrangement remains valid until a verdict has been made. Since there is a risk that he will return for that alone, I would rather not go down this road for the time being.

This does not alter the fact that it is very important to know what I am entitled to. I'm pretty sure of this, but I've made an appointment with an expert on the subject this afternoon. This is me asking for advice, H doesn't know about this.

Like I said, H is hitting wildly but this doesn't affect me at all, it strangly makes me stronger as it is sometimes easier to maitain my focus when he is irrational. Can't explain why.
I know what I want for me and the kids.

An example to show how difficult it is for him:

H yesterday: So I presume you will make the necessary arrangements in line with my comments?

Me Today: Good morning, answer will follow shortly.

H: OK. So this seems we are going towards a battle. You may expect an equal position in regards to communication. It's a pitty you turn 180 degrees in a few days but whatever. Please add to the document that you are not welcome anymore to gatherings with my family (in two weeks there is a party his family organizes and where they invited me)

Me: do you read any negativity in what I sent? I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't mean anything by this, just that an answer is yet to come. And if that's what you want, then I'll respect your decision and don't attend the family gatherings anymore. This is not something that can/should be included in the document.

Of course no response was received.

I will initially wait and see what the expert has to say and then formulate an answer to him.

If we get stuck then I know I will have to take another course. I'm prepared for that. What he underestimates is the fact that there's one thing he really can't manipulate me with and that's my kids.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

Well done with not answering H until you are ready. Especially when it’s in writing.

It looks like most assets are divided and agreed 50/50. Just custody and then the calculated child support to agree upon.

Are you ok with the default week/week custody? I’m inquiring about you, not kids yet.

Now, are the kids ok with week/week custody? From what you’ve said it looks like there is a resistance to this from them.

This is the part of divorce that most affects the kids and yet they get little “legal” say in how it all goes down. Of course, this is a difficult problem to resolve and the laws and courts do the best they can in the interest of the wellbeing of the children.

As long as they’re safe and provided for is the needed criteria for a default legal agreement. If neither party wishes to yield, or has cause to be removed, there is not much one can forceable do.

Once you’ve spoken to an expert you’ll know what is possible going forward. And you’ll know your position.

There is always a possible of negotiating with H. Right now he is flailing. Let him settle a bit. Keep listening and see what he is after.

D

[BL42]

Eagle3,

I don't know your country obviously, but the important thing is you fully understand the law and your rights. Based on your response it sounds like you know your stuff, so that's good.

Still seems like even if you and H are not engaging L's to formally negotiate you'd still want to run anything by an L in the background to ensure you're covered (just don't tell H).

Are you ok with the default week/week custody? I’m inquiring about you, not kids yet.

Now, are the kids ok with week/week custody? From what you’ve said it looks like there is a resistance to this from them.

This is the part of divorce that most affects the kids and yet they get little “legal” say in how it all goes down. Of course, this is a difficult problem to resolve and the laws and courts do the best they can in the interest of the wellbeing of the children.

I agree w/DnJ's questions about custody. What's the current arrangement, and what are you thinking there?

[Sage4]

Hi dear Eagle,

I am so sorry that this is the path being chosen right now. You sound like you have a lot of information and you know what you want. I have faith in you. However, this little interaction brought out some strong feelings for me, probably because I have heard almost the exact same words myself:

An example to show how difficult it is for him:

H yesterday: So I presume you will make the necessary arrangements in line with my comments?

Me Today: Good morning, answer will follow shortly.

H: OK. So this seems we are going towards a battle. You may expect an equal position in regards to communication. It's a pitty you turn 180 degrees in a few days but whatever. Please add to the document that you are not welcome anymore to gatherings with my family (in two weeks there is a party his family organizes and where they invited me)

Me: do you read any negativity in what I sent? I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't mean anything by this, just that an answer is yet to come. And if that's what you want, then I'll respect your decision and don't attend the family gatherings anymore. This is not something that can/should be included in the document.

This would be the exact sort of response I would get (and still get) from my H.

This whole process has been one big eye-opening experience to the depth of my H's insecurities and how those insecurities have wrecked our relationship and are currently making this whole divorce process 100X more challenging than it should be.

I would have responded just like you did. But I am learning now that I was 'rewarding' him with a caring, 'oh, let me just explain my good self to you!' response. I am slooooowly learning that the best response is silence.

After you said 'Good morning, answer will follow shortly' you should have not said one more word until you had said answer. He is baiting you. He knows that you care about his sensitivity and his mental health. That if he shows those sides to you, not only will you jump, but you'll ask him 'how high?'

I am preaching to you as if I am a master myself, but in reality I am struggling with this exact thing in this very moment. Perhaps that is why I see it so clearly.

Sending hugs, keep us updated.

Sage xx

[Eagle3]

Are you ok with the default week/week custody? I’m inquiring about you, not kids yet.

Now, are the kids ok with week/week custody? From what you’ve said it looks like there is a resistance to this from them.D

Hi DnJ, BL42,

Thank you for your feedback. Well, the answers are pretty clear...

1/ No, I'm not OK with the default week/week custody.
2/ No, the children are not OK with week/week custody.

Current arrangements are full custody for me, in the document I have proposed every 2 weeks 1 weekend to start with. Kids are OK with that.

After my talk with the expert it became even more clear as to why I really have to try to solve this without going to court. The moment L's are openly involved the judge always gives 50/50 custody to both parents, since the law states that children need to have contact with both parents as much as possible, unless you have proof of psychical abuse, etc. which is of course not the case.

So they would hear the children but this would take some time and until there is a statement they would have to go with the week/week rule.

This is something he can use against me, although he is not aware today.
I however have also something I can use against him and that is money.
H is making a lot of money and would have to pay more child support as to what he is paying today, which is a good thing for me because money is the most important thing in the world right now for him.

This is also what I used, in a more hidden way, in my feedback on his comments in the document.
Awaiting reply currently.

Hi Sage,

After you said 'Good morning, answer will follow shortly' you should have not said one more word until you had said answer. He is baiting you. He knows that you care about his sensitivity and his mental health. That if he shows those sides to you, not only will you jump, but you'll ask him 'how high?'
I am preaching to you as if I am a master myself, but in reality I am struggling with this exact thing in this very moment. Perhaps that is why I see it so clearly.S

Sorry, can you explain the first sentence? What did you mean with 'you should have not said one more word until you had said answer'.

I'm so glad you told me this because I'm struggling very hard with this. I sometimes wonder why I still react on such messages but I guess this is my nature, and you are correct in saying that I care about his sensitivity and his mental health and he knows it for sure.

I'm also afraid of what the reaction will be if I don't answer. This seems so harsh, not answering to someones message, even if the only thing they do is manipulating the situation.

If you are in this situation, what do you do?

I also have another inquiry.
Next week my in-laws have a family party where I'm invited to, and H as well.
They really want me to be there but in all honesty I think I will not attend since I don't feel like being in one room with H anymore if I don't have to. How do you all deal with such things?

[kml]

I’d skip the family party for now since he’s going to be there.

As to replying in the child support - how about something like:

“I’ve spoken with the kids and their preference is for the every other weekend visitation at present. They need stability in their lives right now - this has really affected them too. Please don’t make it more difficult on them than it already is. “

[Sage4]

Sorry, can you explain the first sentence? What did you mean with 'you should have not said one more word until you had said answer'.

That was a confusing play on words. What I meant was that you do not owe him anything more than what you told him: ‘I’ll get back to you with an answer.’ And you don’t have to respond again until you have the answer.

I'm so glad you told me this because I'm struggling very hard with this. I sometimes wonder why I still react on such messages but I guess this is my nature, and you are correct in saying that I care about his sensitivity and his mental health and he knows it for sure.

I'm also afraid of what the reaction will be if I don't answer. This seems so harsh, not answering to someones message, even if the only thing they do is manipulating the situation.

Boundaries are really hard for lots of people, but especially empathetic people. But in the end, clear boundaries really are the kindest thing you can do. Boundaries protect you AND they give autonomy back to the other person. Because when we approach a situation like this without boundaries, we are effectively telling the other person ‘you can’t figure this out on your own because you are (too mentally unstable, sensitive etc). I am the healthier of the two of us so let me fix/caretake/mend you’. Of course that is not our conscious intention, but that is the message we are sending.

Assume H is normal and can handle it. It’s not impolite to ignore a message that is full of blame and shame. You don’t owe him an explanation or have to engage in a discussion where the only way out is for you to defend yourself.

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

Next week my in-laws have a family party where I'm invited to, and H as well.
They really want me to be there but in all honesty I think I will not attend since I don't feel like being in one room with H anymore if I don't have to. How do you all deal with such things?

It’s easy. You don’t want to go, so don’t go.

1/ No, I'm not OK with the default week/week custody.
2/ No, the children are not OK with week/week custody.

Good. You know where you and the kids stand.

Current arrangements are full custody for me, in the document I have proposed every 2 weeks 1 weekend to start with. Kids are OK with that.

Why the change to the current arrangement? Maybe leave out proposals and stick with current, have been going on for a while, precedent setting, full custody, arrangements that have been working out just fine. No need to put more ideas in his head.

After my talk with the expert it became even more clear as to why I really have to try to solve this without going to court. The moment L's are openly involved the judge always gives 50/50 custody to both parents, since the law states that children need to have contact with both parents as much as possible, unless you have proof of psychical abuse, etc. which is of course not the case.

So they would hear the children but this would take some time and until there is a statement they would have to go with the week/week rule.

Yes, I recalled you mentioning this previously.

Going to court is not what you nor the kids wish to do.

This is something he can use against me, although he is not aware today.
I however have also something I can use against him and that is money.
H is making a lot of money and would have to pay more child support as to what he is paying today, which is a good thing for me because money is the most important thing in the world right now for him.

Yes, your desire for custody is something that can be use against you.

I offer a re-wording change which will made a world of difference in your efforts to achieve your goals:

I however have also something I can use against him and that is money.

I do realize H is enchanted by money, more than custody.

You do not want this to end up in a fight and going to the courts. You cannot “win” in a head to head battle. H is irrational and will not give in to reason, he needs to feel he won. This is key when resolving an issue with an irrational person - their feelings must be assuaged.

I have some advice, which comes straight out of my playbook. I had success, for whatever that’s worth.

Do note: This is not against our spouse. Rather, finding a resolution giving their irrational pressures.

First up, you and the kids. You need to get ok with week/week. H might take this to that end and you and the kids need to be ok with it. That doesn’t mean you desire it, just that you can live with it and accept it and it is not forever. (Obviously you will fight negotiate for a different result.)

You and kids need to discuss this possible outcome. As my S20 told you, kids are part of the divorce. And they often have no information or voice in what is going on. So talk to them.

I told my children everything. Of course, I was lucky in that W blew the whole world apart and dragged everyone and everything in to “our” separation/divorce. That was such a blessing.

Information is power. Make your children powerful! Explain and answer questions about divorce, the process, etc. Dispel their fears and unknowns about this hidden and not talked about subject.

Second, and this is a bit weasel-like and borders close to weaponizing the children, so be careful and keep your intentions and attention to the rational task at hand.

Informed children with an understanding of the “new” life they are facing, with the possibility of having to live at Dad’s half of the time, can and will speak out. They are your kids, and gentle guidance and encouragement to let Dad know their wishes for their desired living arrangements is a good idea. Three boys texting and telling Dad what they want and how much they don’t want his plan will need to be addressed and listen too. If not, it will be H’s undoing.

My four kids clearly told Mom what they thought for her boinking OM. Of course, she opened that morality backlash door when she flaunted her first love making session which happened just before she came over to pick up more stuff. Kids have things to say, and unfortunately that usually gets stifled which has a detrimental affect upon them.

My children expressed their anger and outrage. True, at first, it was pointed incorrectly at me. They could not risk losing their Mom. However, in time, they discovered the truth - they already did. Mom was consumed and replaced by XW who stood in her place.

This is not demonizing H, nor attacking, nor using against him. It is promoting understanding for your children and encouraging them to speak their desires. All before this gets dragged to court.

This will alleviate your fears regarding going to court and ending up week/week. This will also alleviate kids fears too. The loss of fear is a powerful ally. With that particular button removed, H will have lost much of his perceived power over you. And that, first and second, changes the situation which alters the probability of this ever getting to court and ending up week/week. Funny thing, once we lose our fear of something, it seldom occurs.

Third, and basically ongoing, is the kids feedback to Dad. Once they feel secure and can speak up. Oh boy. Like I said, it will be H’s undoing if he ignores it.

The other/next part is negotiating with H. This happens while all the above things/growth are happening as well. It just ramps up the irrational pressure on H. So something to recognize and utilize accordingly. Again, not weasel-like, just finding resolution of a difficult and unwanted situation.

First and foremost for you, is realizing one of your most powerful weapons. Time.

You do not need to get divorced in a week. Or a month. Or a year. H is probably a bit desperate to get the deed done. You need not be. And if you are, tell yourself differently!

When, not if, when H will not come around or sees things too irrational, just wait it out. Let his offer languish in limbo. Let it expire non-responded to if it is too much a not fair/wanted offer.

You believe H desires money. Knowing your opponent’s desire is a good thing.

The only item really left to address is custody. You want full custody. H wants money. You can probably see a plan here. Remember, H needs to feel he won. Negotiating with an irrational person has a higher success rate when the irrational person feels/believes the resolution was their idea.

I want to interject another thing regarding children and divorce. As mentioned, most children get little to no voice. They get no information. And the biggest event that most children feel was the most damaging and detrimental to them - the loss of their family home.

They are ripped from everything they’ve know. Their bedroom. Their security. All sold out from under them.

Obviously, there are many mitigation factors and one person many not be able to swing what two were once paying for. Or there would be just too much emotional pain.There is also the ghosts of our previous life. Can you find peace? Or will the ghosts haunt? And so on.

This is, I believe, another reason my kids are where they are. I still have the family home. They still have the family home. They can walk and visit where they grew up.

If you can swing the mortgage on your income alone. If you can live with the ghosts. If you and the kids like and want the house. And that is probably the biggest question, do you want to live there? If yes, I have a suggestion.

Finesse the following idea, so H runs with it and he feels it is his.

You’ll take the kids full time. You’ll keep the house. H’s future childcare payments equate to his portion of the house. You’ll take over the house and the mortgage. H saves all those house payments, and child support payments. He makes money. You get kids and house.

You might have to add an extra lump sum payment to sweeten the pot. If H shows any interest to something like this, be cool, and let him get his offer written. Have an expert/L look it over, then sign it.

Although there are a few differences, that is basically how my separation, negotiation, and divorce played out. XW had an irrational desire to be out of the marriage and free of kids and responsibility. If H has similar pressure, and with everything else already sorted out, it may not require too much to get his name upon the dotted line.

One final thing - for today . Do not sign anything until you consult a lawyer. Always!

D

[Eagle3]

What has happened in the last 2 weeks defies all imagination. Life with an MLC'er is so "dynamic". It never seems to stop.

I have certainly kept all your feedback in mind and started working on it. Upon your advice, I finally contacted a lawyer and had a first appointment.
Conclusion is that my case is incredibly strong so I don't have to worry about the kids.

This does not alter the fact that I still want to try to arrange everything between us as much as possible, but in case this does not work out I still have a solid back-up plan.

The children are aware of the fact that we are now effectively getting a divorce, I also confirmed to them that OW2 is a fact, they have asked me about this a number of times and I have been open and honest.
They are relieved. They are more than tired of the situation and apparently want to distance themselves from him already for a long time, but they didn't do this for me.
H feels this strongly and accuses me of manipulating them.
This is of course not the case. I just made up my mind not to come between them anymore and to stop pushing them to contact him. They are now completely free to do whatever they want.
Until recently, I always asked them myself to send a message or contact him, or to tell them to reply to his messages. I don't do this anymore. I told H this as well.
He is the one responsible for the connection with his children, not me.

H is monster again and his cycling is now constant. He can change his mind in 10 minutes.
I suppose the reason for this is the impending divorce.
I keep going and don't back down. He clearly noticed that.
I can also keep myself incredibly calm, I didn't think I could do this.

After several discussions about the child support, he finally agreed to my proposal. For the time being we kept the arrangement on 1 weekend on 2, this as from 01/01/2022 but according to the lawyer they do not have to do this if it still does not work and given their age they can therefore decide for themselves. The only thing that could happen is that H demands through a lawyer that they come anyway, children are then heard but with the testimonials they can give, the judge will think in the best interest of the children and is it so that they almost always follow their opinion.

He has been coming to the house 3 times this week on 1 morning. 1 time to say that he wants week/week and that he will go to a lawyer. 10 min. later he was back there to say that he agreed with 1 weekend out of 2 and with the child support, 3rd time to pick up something. 3 times monster behavior. In the afternoon I received a message with
"sorry for today, I just can't put into words what goes on inside me and I struggle with the children and their actions towards me. I don't wish you anything bad or wrong, on the contrary, only the best. That's why I think it's a shame that you think you can't be there on Saturday (= the party I mentioned you about), it's sad for the children and the parents."

I replied briefly that I know and understand him and that I am not coming to the party because I can't do this now, that I need time and space for myself right now.

Gave myself a wellness day tomorrow.

Draft has now been drawn up and is at the notary, only the house is not yet finalised. He has until 15/11 to decide, otherwise it will be put up for sale.
Now try to sign as quickly as possible, hopefully the notary will put some speed behind it.