but bttrfly I don't do any of those things. I had one dark night where I was tempted and slipped. That's why I posted for a first time in a while. To say how horrible I felt. To say that it's complicated and delicate.
I think the point is more that whether you keep your side "clean" or you don't, your kid is going to get very very damaged by the narcissist. Because the kid with a parent like that is already blaming herself and internalizing everything because she doesn't realize what's going on. That's what happened to me as a teen. My son has a whole defiant side that leads to other self harm.
And that is a cause of grief. I am grieving because I have to surrender my kid to that.
This confusion had gone away in the last couple years when his dad was out of his life.
Now my kid has totally regressed and has become abusive to me again. If anything he is trying to be my parent and I am trying to figure out how to keep him a kid.
Even if you don't do anything to alienate, the very fact of a broken family alienates. You can refuse to participate, you can pray for your spouse, you can tell your kids to forgive, you can say the grownups will take care of it, etc., and it's still a dysfunctional gaslighted mess. It's confusing and complicated for the kids and a cause for grief to watch them struggle.
I was tempted that night so I came here and talked about it. Like an addict coming to a meeting in order to stay clean, not in order to justify a relapse.
I'm still Gerda and all that you knew about me before is still the case.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Kids are smart. A lot smarter than a lot of people any where on this board give them credit for. And your kids aren't babies. They are 12 and 16. They are in the middle of battling their way out of childhood and into adulthood. Divorce or no, teens are defiant. They say mean things to the people they love the most. They do rebellious things for the sake of rebellion. They see how far they can push boundaries to see what their limits are, to see what your limits are, simple to stretch their wings. Shop lifting is incredibly common in teens. Lying, all teens lie. Self harm, super common. Experimenting with drugs, don't know if he did that, but that's also completely normal teen behavior. Disappearing and not telling you where they are going, yup typical teen behavior. It hurts as a parent watching your sweet babies become raging hormone monsters. It's frustrating, rage inducing, and deeply saddening when they make you feel helpless or like their behavior is completely out of control. But the reality is their behavior is as much in your control as you want it to be.
They are going to do things that need to be corrected immediately. Speaking to you like that, well let's say your boy is lucky I'm not his mom. We'd be done with that after the first comment. Absolutely not. You are in charge of what you allow. Would you let your ex speak to you like that? A stranger? Your kid doesn't get kid glove treatment because he's a child of divorce. That's not how this works. The likelihood that he's acting out because of the divorce and not because he's just an angsty defiant 16 year old boy is pretty slim. Also teens are going to do things that you really should just straight up ignore. Not every hill is a hill to die on. Sometimes you need to act like them and just roll your eyes and go about your day. Surviving teens in or outside of a divorce is difficult. But a lot of what you're doing here is attributing completely normal teenage behavior to your ex and the divorce. Narcissist or not, manipulation or not your kids are too old to be fully puppeted by him. And your ex is your ex, evil, sociopath, narcissist he may be, but he's not a god. He only has as much control as you let him have. Even if he's using your kids as pawns it's a game he's playing with you, not them.
The only way for you to get through this with your relationship to your children in tact you genuinely have to separate your issues with your ex from your issues with your kids. At this stage it's way too complicated to suss out the correlation and/or causation of the divorce and your ex on their behavior. You need to get into therapy if you aren't. You need support and tools to traverse this. You have a lot on that plate of yours and a non-bias sounding board to help you process this stuff could really go a long way. You also really need to establish clear boundaries with your kids. What is and isn't acceptable. It's not acceptable to just disappear as a 16 year old. It's not acceptable to tell your chronically ill mother she should get a real job. It's not acceptable to commit crimes. It's not acceptable to rage when you would've been more than happy to have a conversation. And yes, laying down the law could push them into the arms of their completely trash father, but that's neither here nor there. That's a bridge you'll have to cross if you get there. Some kids need to learn things the hard way. And if thinking the grass is greener with dad, you may have to just let them learn that. If the lesson is dad is not who he pretends to be, I'm almost positive they will each have to learn that the hard way.
You are not the first parent to navigate this sh!tshow. I've had more than one friend pack their child's belongings up and let them know if dad/mom(although less common in my circle) is so fantastical and amazing and the best parent, person and human to walk this Earth ever by all means go live with them. I've only ever seen maybe 2 actually go for it. And I've yet to have seen a kid who didn't regret their decision in less than 30 days. I saw one kid pack her own stuff and all her mom had to say was "And where do you think that's going to go in your dad's house? He doesn't even have a room for you. You sleep on a couch. BTW does he even know you're planning on moving in?" He didn't show up to pick her up that weekend and called to cancel like 3 hours after he was supposed to get her. Sh!tty people never fail to show their colors, even narcissists. And some kids refuse to learn life lessons through critical thinking, they need their hearts broken and hopes dashed to accept that the fairy tale version of reality they've had in their head was completely off base. It hurts like hell to not be able to soften the blow for them It's hurts like hell to not be able to get them to understand things holistically enough that they don't have to learn the hard way. But that's the nature of children. No one will ever bring you more joy or more pain. And it's our duty to let them find their way, be a firm hand to guide then and a soft place to land when they fall flat on their faces.
Sage, thank you for the ideas and the care you took to write these words.
I was definitely was in a moment of intense weakness and loneliness when I wrote that. Probably a bad idea to record it here, I kind of regret what it started on my thread. But it's true that trauma is an imprint and unresolved trauma no doubt led me to choose H in the first place. Thanks for the love! Have to go back through your post and read it a few more times to get all the nuggets.
Thanks, DnJ, for sharing the dark day moments, I think we all just want to feel like someone can relate to our ugliest moments and still want to be our friend. I hear you about S16 but there are moments when a kid has ODD that don't work out that way. I hopefully provided a lot of guidance and taught him respect along this rocky road the last eight years. It's not always possible but I would not expect anyone whose kid does not have that to know what it's like. My other child does not have that and as difficult as she can sometimes be, it's a whole different animal with S. It's going to be his journey ultmately but hopefully with his special school and his therapist and a little bit from me, he will find his way.
sjohn, you helped me so much with your words. Would like to tell you my name too but I know I had better not tell it to the world on here. I read your message over many times in the last few days, read it aloud to myself a few times when I was really down, and even showed the post to my best friend. I think it's clear I really needed to hear some loving kindness, it helped me so much. It's really a mystery to me that you think those things about me, but a very good mystery. Also helpful to read about how you have struggled with the same thing at times. When we are feeling really ashamed or ugly or bad about ourselves, to know someone else has been there is really the best way to inspire someone to climb out of that hole. It's really hard for me to imagine anyone doubting you; you are so open and kind and I bet you are a fun dad with your kids to boot. And you are right, I have no one around me doing that; in fact pretty much none. My family is quite similar to H (thus the original attraction!) and my kids are teens so they are really mean at least 50% of the time. Hey, have you been writing anymore? I was trying to remember something you had talked about in the past about a box of something that made me write to you about being creative but I forget what it was all about. I think that's when we first became friends. I hope you are doing really well otherwise, and that your life has a direction and a beauty that goes beyond what you suffered....
Last edited by Gerda; 09/29/2108:00 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Your children are growing up, they are attempting to spread their wings a bit. You have to give them the room to do so. You cannot control every aspect of their lives, how they feel and what they are thinking. Yes, they are now getting to the stage where they will rant, say things that cut deep, act out, etc., i.e., just like a full blown MLCer. What do you do? You call them on their disrespecting you, you call them on bad behavior...but keep this in your heart...you love them. They know that they can lash out at you because you are the safe parent.
I know you are so afraid that they will want to live with their father. The grass is not always greener on the other side. If your son threatens you with moving in with dear old dad...sit quietly and let him stew on his threat and if he does move out...I can promise you, it won't take long for that little happy fest to turn to resentment. Right now, your son thinks the sun rises and sets in his father...it's going to take him some time to see the true light. You need to drop the rope a bit and allow him to experience life a bit.
Separate your situation from your children's situation. What is going on w/you and your husband has to stay between the two of you. Your children are growing up and are now old enough to sense that things aren't good. They have lessons to learn as they walk this earth and they need to see that dear old dad isn't some goody two shoes.
Trust your faith, lean on your faith and know that whatever will come, you will be strong enough to face it...but do call your children out on their behavior. They need to learn to respect you for who you are.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
but bttrfly I don't do any of those things. I had one dark night where I was tempted and slipped. That's why I posted for a first time in a while. To say how horrible I felt. To say that it's complicated and delicate.
I never said you did. But both parentification and parental alienation are going on with your exh, IMHO. You are human, you will have great days and not so great days. We all have those. My point is that ESPECIALLY if the other parent is creating havoc it's imperative for you to keep your side clean. Can you cause even more damage if you don't? OH YES.
Originally Posted by Gerda
I think the point is more that whether you keep your side "clean" or you don't, your kid is going to get very very damaged by the narcissist. Because the kid with a parent like that is already blaming herself and internalizing everything because she doesn't realize what's going on. That's what happened to me as a teen. My son has a whole defiant side that leads to other self harm.
And that is a cause of grief. I am grieving because I have to surrender my kid to that.
This confusion had gone away in the last couple years when his dad was out of his life.
Now my kid has totally regressed and has become abusive to me again. If anything he is trying to be my parent and I am trying to figure out how to keep him a kid.
Even if you don't do anything to alienate, the very fact of a broken family alienates. You can refuse to participate, you can pray for your spouse, you can tell your kids to forgive, you can say the grownups will take care of it, etc., and it's still a dysfunctional gaslighted mess. It's confusing and complicated for the kids and a cause for grief to watch them struggle.
I was tempted that night so I came here and talked about it. Like an addict coming to a meeting in order to stay clean, not in order to justify a relapse.
I'm still Gerda and all that you knew about me before is still the case.
I encourage you to get IC for yourself and your children and family therapy. That's all the help I have to offer. I'm sorry if it's not enough, but it's the best I can do.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Gerda, I completely understand about not sharing your name. If I had chosen a username that suited me other than a login to another website I used before, then I might stick with mine too. I am sure your real name is beautiful, but I do like Gerda!
I'm glad that I was able to offer some comfort. It really isn't that much of a mystery why I view you the way I do...it is because of how you carry yourself. The things you think about, the types of concerns you have, how hard you work on things...whether its something you know how to do or not. You have grown leaps and bounds since you first started coming here...and that shows your strength. I have a high opinion of you because you have shown us what kind of woman you are. You are a lighthouse, even if your ex may be forever lost at sea.
I agree that it helps to know that when we are at our lowest, that others have felt the same. My kids seem to be constantly at odds with their mom due to her flaky/selfish behavior. When they are mad at her, it almost gives me a sense of peace that I am not crazy. She is doing this to all of us. But, they live with her part of the time...and flaky or not she still loves them. So, they end up getting along with her a lot more lately. Although her and I still don't talk much, she has calmed down a lot. I find myself feeling almost betrayed by them that they are enjoying time with her. I have to back myself off from that and remind myself that if they can have any kind of a good relationship with her, that is a GOOD thing. I hate that I feel that way, but I can at least say that I am getting better at recognizing it and countering it. It's an ongoing effort...you are not alone!
Another thing I have recognized in myself that it looks like you may struggle with as well is going too easy on the kids in regards to punishment/correction. I find that I feel so bad about not being able to provide the family life I wanted them to have and I see them struggle while with their mother that I bend over backwards to make sure they have no complications at my house of any kind. The problem is that they are still kids and part of what they need is parenting. They need direction, which provides that stability and structure that they need. We can be a safe place to vent, but we can't allow them to think that it is ok to treat us poorly. They get enough of that on the other side, they need direction in how to treat people. They need to see that it is ok to stand up for yourself if you are being treated poorly and that there are real life consequences for their actions. They need to know that if you love someone you don't treat them that way. I am getting better at this but its still a work in progress. I think realistically the dad should step in and correct the son when he mistreats his mother, but this is another instance where we have to step in and make up for the inadequacies of the MLCer. It isn't fair at all, but I love my kids so much and I want them to have all the lessons they need in life, so if I have to pull mom duty to make that happen...so be it. You might have to pull some dad duty here.
I have not been writing much lately. The box you remember us talking about was a time capsule of sorts. I wanted to make a box and fill it with mementos and memories that reminded me of all the things I loved about my wife and my life with her. Something I could put on the shelf and refer back to when things got to a point where I needed a reminder of what I was standing for. I am proud that I felt that way at the time. The thing I didn't fully realize was how much I would change. I feel like the relationship I had with her was a relationship between 2 different people. The memories and feelings I have/had for her feel like they belong to a different person. A different version of me for a different version of her. Even if she at some point wanted to fix things between us (which seems unlikely at this point), I am not sure she is capable of being what I would need her to be in order to work through a reconciliation. I'm not sure she ever really loved me enough to have that much patience to work through the hard bits.
Otherwise, I am doing pretty well. I can't say that I am 100%...but I am leaps and bounds better than I was 2 years ago. I still feel like there is an injured part of my soul that may never fully heal, but for the most part I am better. The hard part is trading the kids. If it was just about her cheating and then leaving, I think I'd probably have moved all the way through this thing by now. But, the constant back and forth with the kids keeps the whole thing kind of fresh to some degree. That and no real closure as to why it all happened...but time helps with that.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on your thread. I hope you have an amazing day today!
