My Story P2...Acceptance of the MLC Madness

[Eagle3]

It's been a while since my last update, so time for a new one.

I had planned 2 weeks of leave and went on a holiday abroad with the children. What a fantastic journey we had! We enjoyed every second of it. Nice weather, good food, many activities and above all a lot of peace and quiet. The kids thought it was the best holiday in years. After all, the last trips we had always turned out in a bad way because of the behavior of H.

It was also planned that H would pick them up and spend another 10 days with them in the same country but at a different location.

So H came to pick them up. He came a day earlier and we had dinner together. It actually was a very nice evening.

I came back alone to our home the next day.

In the meantime they have been with H for 4 days, and he again shows behavior that is not tolerable.

He treats them like children of 10 years old. He takes away their smartphones while he is constantly on his cell phone, does nothing actively with them, blames them when things don't go the way they should, in short, they are not having the best time of their lives, and they still have a full week to go.

I suppose the best advice I can give them is that they should react to him if things are not going well, honestly say they would rather not stay with him this way.

He is also very active on Whatsapp, and always put his cell phone with the screen down so they can’t see what he typed. S17 of course sees through this and assumes that a new OW is involved.

I think it's terrible for them, but in the meantime I know from experience that I can't change this situation, that they have to do this themselves now as they are old enough.

They normally fly back next week and then H stays in the house for one more week before going back to his residence abroad, my boundary is that he can't stay in the house if he has an OW but I have no proof . Should I be silent about this then?

The reason he stays over is because a party is planned for my S17's birthday in early September, with family and friends. I want this to go really smoothly and well for S, after all he has already been through enough. For this reason, I don't really want to confront him with the question if he has an OW again, but still I can’t stop thinking about it.

Sometimes I’m simply at the point of sending him a message to ask if there is a new OW…
Luckily I haven’t done it yet.

Like OwnIt stated above, I was so convinced he was on his way back but it seems I'm wrong again. I don't understand it, he is so aware now of his situation, knows he is the way he is because of his past trauma's and because of the loss his biggest purpose in life (his former job), works on it, sees a counselor, reads related books, but still this behavior towards his children...

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

I’m glad you and the boys enjoyed your vacation. Kids thinking it was the best holiday in years is great. They must have had a really good time.

I understand the boys are not having the time of their lives at Dad’s. MLCers lose the plot and usually end up pretty deplorable parents.

I suppose the best advice I can give them is that they should react to him if things are not going well, honestly say they would rather not stay with him this way.

I am guessing the boys are still in contact with you, texting you every now and then while with Dad. Unfortunately advice and guidance is difficult to impart to the kids while they are elsewhere. It’s two fold, the medium of texting is not the greatest for that and the boys are living within the very situation that is stirring up their emotions.

I’d not suggest a solution, rather see what the boys are feeling and thinking they should do. Empathize with them and gently steer their ideas towards fruition if worthwhile.

I think it's terrible for them, but in the meantime I know from experience that I can't change this situation, that they have to do this themselves now as they are old enough.

That’s the main idea here. It’s not your job to facilitate or moderate the relationship between Dad and child. It’s your job not to destroy it from your actions.

Of course, if their situation is dangerous, violent, or some such, then for sure step in. Presently, the time with Dad is not at that point and is very unlikely to devolve into that. Some MLCers get pretty heavily into drinking and drugs and young kids would not be safe or well cared for around someone in that condition. Your boys are older and well do fine, although they may be a bit bored.

Once back home, you can further encouraging ideas of standing up for themselves. At 14 and 17 it won’t take much encouragement from my experience. Adolescents usually stand up and rebel against their parents just because. Lol.

As best you can remain out of the situation regarding their time at Dad’s. Any advice you give puts you in the middle of things. And guaranteed no matter how noble or well intentioned your advice, something will go wrong (remember H is in crisis of course something will go wrong that’s why the kids are bored and not happy) and you we get blamed. Let the responsibility of this lay on H’s shoulders, do not take it from him. And by the way, it also lets the boys accept their role in this as well.

…my boundary is that he can't stay in the house if he has an OW but I have no proof. Should I be silent about this then?

You are keeping yourself unable to decide because of “lack of proof”. You are justifying this indecision to yourself. BTW, that’s the part after the word “but”, the bit we use to talk ourselves in to or out of something.

The reason he stays over is because a party is planned for my S17's birthday in early September, with family and friends. I want this to go really smoothly and well for S, after all he has already been through enough. For this reason, I don't really want to confront him with the question if he has an OW again, but still I can’t stop thinking about it.

Again further muddy and coupling of ideas and things that need not be tied together. Let’s unravel it a bit shall we.

S17’s birthday can go smoothly and well, regardless if H stays over or not. H can stay at a hotel and come over for the day. Dad, family, and friends will all be present for the day and leave at the end.

Yes, S17 has been through at lot. I’m pretty sure he can handle not having Dad sleep over. That’s the normal situation every other day. I would suspect having Dad under the same roof would actually ramp up S17’s stress.

The birthday will go fine, plan accordingly. Do not tie H and his behaviour into it. Now with the birthday party taken care of, let’s look at H and your boundary.

H cannot stay at the house if he has an OW. In my view and opinion you are trying to find the wiggle room to have H stay over. You are fearful of asking because H actually might have an OW. Hence, the reason why you can’t wont stop thinking about it. (Let go the fear and focus on you.)

I would further suspect you’d like H to be over. The evening together during the vacation went well and you’d like to repeat that. People in crisis are masters of manipulation. They twist and turn situation to their benefit. That’s all well and good until you get in their way and they will run you over. Remember these folks are driven to their irrational behaviour from deep relentless internal pressures.

I don't understand it, he is so aware now of his situation, knows he is the way he is because of his past trauma's and because of the loss his biggest purpose in life (his former job), works on it, sees a counselor, reads related books, but still this behavior towards his children...

Yes, it is confusing and that’s from the outside, just imagine being the person with all that going on inside your head.

Anyhow, back to the business at hand. Boundaries are placed to stop disrespectful behaviour towards you. I agree if H is playing house with someone else he should not play house at your home.

Do you need to know if he has an OW? Do you need to ask? No.

H doesn’t stay over because you don’t want him too. That’s all.

It’s not proof of an OW that prevents him staying over, it’s proof of no OW that allows him too. You suspect he is not disclosing his affair. Your current boundary is stated in such a manner that as along as H hides it from you he feels he can come over. Remember, masters of manipulations. He will work this against you, be ready for it.

That being said, there is some legalities in all of this. H legally can probably stay over. You and he are not divorced and have no agreement or settlement in place.

Boundaries are for you, and contain actions you take. If you swear at me, I will leave the room. That kind of thing. Preventing H based upon an OW is more strongly influencing him. You are attempting to alter his behaviour of coming over, rather than that which you can directly control. I don’t disagree with it, just ensuring you see clearly that the consequences of H’s noncompliance are not easily enforceable.

With that:

Should I be silent about this then?

No.

As I said, you don’t need to ask about OW.

Sometimes I’m simply at the point of sending him a message to ask if there is a new OW…
Luckily I haven’t done it yet.

If you did send him a message and he does have a new OW, do you think he’d tell the truth? He’d lie and cover it up.

The message or conversation you need to have is about the upcoming birthday plans. Be specific and clear. So with some guesswork on my part of certain details I came up with something like:

Hello H

I am confirming arrangements for S17’s birthday. The party is being held on September 12th, friends and family are coming around 2:00 pm. You are welcome to come over for lunch, and a visit before hand. How about coming over for 10:00 am?

Supper is hotdogs, smokies, chips, salads, and of course cake! And ice cream!

If the weather is agreeable there will be outdoor activities until around 9:00 pm. Otherwise I have some indoor actives planned.

If you want you can let me know where you are staying. Perhaps S17 can shuttle you to and from your hotel. He is quite a good driver.

Eagle3


Hope you are having a wonderful Saturday.

D

[Eagle3]

As best you can remain out of the situation regarding their time at Dad’s. Any advice you give puts you in the middle of things.D

This part is clear to me and I will act accordingly. Thx.

The next part, is unfortunately, not clear at all. Keep having difficulties with the boundaries and the whole meaning of it apparantely.

H cannot stay at the house if he has an OW. In my view and opinion you are trying to find the wiggle room to have H stay over. You are fearful of asking because H actually might have an OW. Hence, the reason why you can’t wont stop thinking about it. (Let go the fear and focus on you.)

Anyhow, back to the business at hand. Boundaries are placed to stop disrespectful behaviour towards you. I agree if H is playing house with someone else he should not play house at your home.D

I’m not fearful. If he has an OW, his decision, but not fair to play house then.
Yes, H will lie about it if there is one or not, simply because he is indeed a master in manipulation and he still wants to be seen as somebody who takes care of his family although he is not well.

H doesn’t stay over because you don’t want him too. That’s all.

That being said, there is some legalities in all of this. H legally can probably stay over. You and he are not divorced and have no agreement or settlement in place.

Boundaries are for you, and contain actions you take. If you swear at me, I will leave the room. That kind of thing. Preventing H based upon an OW is more strongly influencing him. You are attempting to alter his behaviour of coming over, rather than that which you can directly control. I don’t disagree with it, just ensuring you see clearly that the consequences of H’s noncompliance are not easily enforceable.
D

Here I’m losing you.
H always stays in the house every other 6 weeks. If I would send the message you proposed his first question will be. Why can’t I stay over in the house, I haven’t done anything wrong. And in truth it is, since I don’t have proof and his behaviour is not disrespectful at all on all other fronts, only if he would have an OW.

I’m not influencing the fact of him having an OW, that’s his decision. My decision is, an OW means not staying over in the house, not respectful towards both parties.

So since this is beyond my control, lack of proof, this is a boundary I can’t really implement it?

In regards to legality, you are correct, he can stay over legally.

[DnJ]

Hello Eagle

H always stays in the house every other 6 weeks.

Sorry, I forgot H returns every six weeks. That certainly changes things.

Since you have no proof; and H routinely stays over; and he is not disrespectful - no reason to implement your boundary (which would be difficult, given the situation).

Stay the course. Have H over and celebrate S17’s birthday. And keep moving forward. Do your thing and give H space and time.

As for asking H about an OW. I wouldn’t. If he is seeing someone, that will come out eventually.

Sorry for the confusion.

D

[Gerda]

Or if you have a sick feeling of dread around his visits at this point, you can change the reason for your boundary. Maybe you are done having him in your house for another reason, and maybe acting on it will be the better thing to do for both of you.

Ask yourself what you would do if you had no fear of doing it.

If every six weeks you are having a small nervous breakdown at the thought of his return, don't allow it anymore.

If you can bear the nervous breakdown because you feel it's best for your family to do it that way, allow it.

Maybe it would be better for him and for your kids if he had to get his own place to visit with them.

Or maybe it would be better for him and your kids if they use your house but you leave.

I don't know the answer but I would not ignore a persistent feeling of dread. It may be the holy spirit or your own powers of Knowing. I would pray on it or ponder on it in the woods and consider the fruits of each possible decision.

I am usually confused and don't know what to do. But I do know, seven years in, that I should not have ignored my intuition or those persistent feelings, they were telling me something, and trying to find a way to act on them consistent with my beliefs would have had better fruits than what happened when I ignored them because I thought that was how to be a good wife.

[Eagle3]

DnJ, that’s more clear to me now. I will follow your advice.

Ask yourself what you would do if you had no fear of doing it.
If every six weeks you are having a small nervous breakdown at the thought of his return, don't allow it anymore.

I’m strong enough to handle the fact he comes over every 6 weeks. I don’t fear him anymore. That feeling is completely gone. I only have a day or 2 before his arrival a bit of a nervous feeling of how he is going to be but I don’t loose my sleep over it or anything. After he leaves I also miss him a bit (when all goes well) but this also takes only a day or 2.

The kids prefer it that way, and I honestly prefer this as well.

Meanwhile, the kids are still on holiday with H and they let me know that things are going a little better. He is still tense and regularly gives very short reactions, but otherwise it is not that bad.

The problem, however, is that he turns his anger back on to me in his messages the last 2 days. I don't think he can handle the pressure of taking care of 3 kids, and now he attacks me for anything and everything.

I keep my cool, answer politely and to the point and do not go along with his convictions.

WOW, he managed to last almost 3 months to be kind this time. What an improvement!

Wonder how long his frustrations will play out on me again.

Gerda, I saw your message and I'm 100% convinced that the divorce should be finalized as soon as possible. In my case, fortunately, everything is split financially (except for the house), but if he suddenly no longer wants to pay for the children of for the mutual costs of the house, I will also initiate the procedure. However don't see any purpose in doing this for now since it is not beneficial for me currently. (maybe only for my mental health though :D)

[Eagle3]

Intuition, why do I sometimes no listen more to it?

It's already weeks that I have a strong feeling there's an OW2 involved.
Unfortunately, I now have 95% certainty that this is the case. (I still give him the 5% because I never heard it from his mouth…)

Believe none of what they say, and half of what they do, or is it the other way around?
In any case, I will constantly have to remind myself of this because it is so effective.

H is abroad with the kids and it's very sad to say that my S17 fully understands what's going on. I suppose H thinks he still dealing with small children, but nothing could be further from the truth, S17 is the one who told me that another woman is definitely involved.

The relationship has almost certainly been going on for about 8 months (since Christmas, when I found out he was messaging with her) and is most likely already coming to an end.

Why do I know this? Since S17 told me this I took a look at his Instagram account. H himself never posts anything and has very few followers but follows a lot of people himself.

In the people who follow him I had seen there was a woman of whom I already suspected this could be OW2. Guess what, they have de-friended each other since a few days.

He is also continuously messaging, and went out last night at 10:30 PM “to make a call for work”. At 10:30 PM???? S17 was so mad, and messaged me to say that H was really crazy to think he still believes that at that age.

I have reassured that this is just a relationship based on lies and that they never have to face OW2 if they don’t want to. So no one, but no one knows about this relationship.
He keeps her completely hidden from the outside world. You can imagine how long such things can last before the frustrations, fights etc. are starting.

10 days traveling with his children and he is in bed more than anything else…and this while in the last 3 years he has never had them alone with him and that he hardly sees them.

Who is this man? I really feel sorry for him.

As for myself…how could I be so gullible…
I have had sexual interaction with him while he is still in a relationship with OW2.
How the hell can he do that, and how could I be stupid enough to still fall for that.

I was 100% convinced that he wasn't, although my gut feeling contradicted this at times.

Am I hurt by the fact that there is an OW2, no, to be honest I'm actually a bit relieved, that I've only now found out for sure, especially as it's coming to an end again…on to OW3 for sure?
So H will be in the house for a whole week next week. If he tries to be intimate again, my answer will be very clear.

However, there are 2 options:

1st answer:
“Since there is still an OW2 or until recently there was, we can absolutely no longer have sexual interaction. And I've always told you that you can't stay in this house if there is an OW so next time make sure you have another place.

2nd answer:
For unspecified reasons, we can no longer be intimate with each other. This way he can guess himself what the reason was.

Or do I have another option? What would you do in my place?

[Eagle3]

I'll guess I'll need to change my signature again...LOL

[DnJ]

Good Morning Eagle

You are correct, believe none of what they say and only half of what they do.

It does sound like H and OW2 relationship recently blew up. The laying around in bed, continuous texting, the late night “work” phone call. Lol. Yeah, S17 sees through all that. It’s funny and sad that these crisis individuals feel they are being so crafty and wise with their covert lives.

As for myself…how could I be so gullible…
I have had sexual interaction with him while he is still in a relationship with OW2.
How the hell can he do that, and how could I be stupid enough to still fall for that.

I was 100% convinced that he wasn't, although my gut feeling contradicted this at times.

Intuition is usually right. Which means it is sometimes wrong. You based decisions upon facts not feelings. That is an excellent thing to do! Listening to one’s intuition gives one idea of what to be wary about.

Don’t beat yourself up. You were not stupid. “How the h3ll can he do that?” A very good question. H is in crisis. He is making irrational and emotionally driven choices.

So H will be in the house for a whole week next week. If he tries to be intimate again, my answer will be very clear.

However, there are 2 options:

1st answer:
“Since there is still an OW2 or until recently there was, we can absolutely no longer have sexual interaction. And I've always told you that you can't stay in this house if there is an OW so next time make sure you have another place.

2nd answer:
For unspecified reasons, we can no longer be intimate with each other. This way he can guess himself what the reason was.

Or do I have another option? What would you do in my place?

Remember our discussion on boundaries? Versus strongly worded influencing?

Legally you cannot keep him out of the house. You can strongly suggest that he find somewhere else to remain during his time in the hometown.

If H refuses, you have your choices to make. You can only control you.

Given the now 95% assured status of OW2 and their probable relationship demise your position has changed.

I would not go with option two. It’s too vague. Do not leave him to guessing. Be direct and in no uncertain terms tell him why!

So go with option one, with some modifying.

Boundaries are stating your actions. I will not have sex with you while you are seeing someone else. (That is different than we cannot have sex). That places the cause of no sex clearly upon his actions, and the enforcement clearly within your control.

As for him staying over. “You can’t stay here…” Not really within your control and hardly enforceable. Use: I’ve always said your welcome if there was no OW. Therefore, I would like you to find another place to sleep at, while in our hometown. If he chooses not too. Fine. Go about your week. And put him clearly in the roommate category. (You could go so far as not making his meals, no laundry, etc. As I said, your choices, your actions. However, the consequences may not be what you want with the upcoming birthday.)

After S17’s birthday and with some more time and discussion you can craft a longer term vision and enforceable response to H’s actions.

I know you’re feeling rather low. (((Hugs)))

Take care of yourself.

D

[Elbereth]

Hello, jumping in here with a question...

Earlier DnJ stated:

It’s not proof of an OW that prevents him staying over, it’s proof of no OW that allows him too. You suspect he is not disclosing his affair. Your current boundary is stated in such a manner that as along as H hides it from you he feels he can come over. Remember, masters of manipulations. He will work this against you, be ready for it.

Then this suggestion...

Boundaries are stating your actions. I will not have sex with you while you are seeing someone else. (That is different than we cannot have sex). That places the cause of no sex clearly upon his actions, and the enforcement clearly within your control.

But wouldn't this still leave her H to lie to get what he wants? And again, Eagle3 would have difficulty in obtaining an honest disclosure of his affair? Couldn't he easily continue to try to hide his infidelity so that he can get the intimacy he wants?

Might it be better to say "I am not feeling comfortable with intimacy right now with the current way our relationship is going" or something more generic that leaves the decision up to Eagle3 as well as doesn't give him the actual detail he could manipulate? This seems more aligned to your original advice I listed above, which I found to be so wise.

El