Also, I want to get this down here while I am thinking about it
W told me the issues in the marriage she had with me and said "If I would have said something earlier we probably could have worked through them but I let it go on to long and pretended that everything was okay and it went too far".
This arbitrary "point of no return" really bothered me. First let's remember that most would agree that the issues she brought up, ALL of them were petty, not worth throwing a marriage away for, or at the very least, workable and in no way where these pervasive communicated problems that we had worked on for months or years.
They amount to: "My bathroom was messy/my room messy. I wasn't as active physically as she'd like. I didn't take an interest in her hiking hobby. I was on my phone/online too much. My anxiety affected us (even though her depression literally ruined our marriage".
So her saying that the issues hit some arbitrary "point of no return" that she herself made up, really pissed me off. It is a marriage. It is important. We have all the time in the world moving forward. So that statement to me is nothing more than a statement of CONTROL. "I have decided this because of ME and I will not be moved from it."
Yet, in the beginning I was gung ho at taking responsibility and telling her all the things I'd be happy to do to work on the marriage. And I was 100% sincere about it and didn't take it as her coming down on me or judging me. I want to be a better man and partner after all.
But in the following weeks, and it took a while, It finally dawned on me. "Yes, these are legitimate issues. They are not divorce worthy and they are the type of common problems present in nearly all marriages or relationships."
another "A-ha" moment happened a few weeks ago.
According to our agreement we cohabitate but she wants to come in after her trips, where she stays away for weeks, and tell me to go to my Mom's for weeks at a time so she can stay home, alone. I told her I would not be doing that.
She asks why do I feel "entitled" to "her house" and I say "I don't, actually but your lawyer's agreement does LITERALLY entitle" me.
I go on to say, I will not be bullied and ordered away from the home one her whims.
She tells me to "grow up".
I think...hmmm. At first I thought of all the ways in which I am not so grown up.
Then reality hit me in the face. This woman, who smokes pot all day, and gets drunk every night, who has continued a college type lifestyle her entire life-- this person who I always joked thinks every night needs to be like Bonnaroo (an outdoor concert/festival) who childishly abandoned our marriage, and refuses to work on her biggest life commitment-- SHE is calling ME "childish".
I hate to sound self righteous and I always want to look within first but -- JEEZ. Facts are facts.
So wait - you are signing divorce papers, what is the disposition of the house? Who gets it in the divorce? Why do you have to still cohabitate?
Also - as for the "point of no return" - that happened when she started her affair. Once they are all infatuated with someone new, they rewrite history. Like I said before, one of my H's complaints was that I "walked too heavy", and not only that, I taught our daughter to do the same! The crazier or more trivial the complaints are, the greater the likelihood that it's not ABOUT you. They are just reaching for something to justify their behavior.
At this age - why were you attracted to a wife who thought "every night should be Bonnaroo", and who drank heavily and smoked MJ daily? One thing to figure out is, why weren't these red flags that you saw earlier in the relationship? What is there about your past or family of origin that made these things seem attractive instead of negatives? For instance, my good friend will inevitably find attractive the one guy in the room who is an alcoholic. She doesn't drink, her parents didn't drink, but her "fun uncle" was an alcoholic and it's like she subconsciously gravitates to that every time.
Yeah that's what I am trying to figure out. If it is MLC there would be some hope, if I am willing to wait it out, continue to show love and compassion etc. No guaranteed by any means, but hope.
But with narcissistic personality, there really is no hope. There was no real "love" there in the sense that you or I think of love.
You might just find your current definition of love is going to get a huge upgrade.
There is always hope. Hope is believing in the possibilities. Hope lives in that realm; lives in what is possible.
Hope is an incredible force. It can propel you to some amazing things and it can bind down.
You see hope is a spectrum from wishes to expectations. Fanciful to reality. I hope to win the lottery (wishful and fantasy). I hope I get to work safely today (expected and pretty much a reality).
If you keep your wishes, hopes, and expectations clear it helps a lot. Problems start when we let our hopes, our belief in the possible, become expectations. When expectations go unmet, resentments build. Keep your expectations to zero regarding W, marriage, relationship, and such. For sure hope, for there is plenty of hopeful possibilities, just be wary of getting your expectations up and therefore crushed.
The best hopes and possibilities concern you. What hopes do you have for your life. Hopes and dreams that are focused upon you and do not include W and the two of you. I know how big a task that is at first. We were living our blissful happy lives, expecting things to continue forever. We didn’t think to figure out what to do if we got divorce and ended up single.
Find yourself in the midst of all the rubble of the marriage. Stand and dust yourself off. Detach and let go. Discover your values and beliefs. The why and deep rooted soul of who you are. Do you like him? Proud of those values? Strengthen those that serve you. Craft beliefs that you aspire to. Alter values you are not proud of. And discard those that do not serve the life you want to live.
That is the larger path. And like any journey it starts with small steps forward. You’ve made many steps so far. You have the business side sorted out. Financially things are settled, you have financial security and protection (I think). Keep moving forward.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
She tells me to "grow up".
I think...hmmm. At first I thought of all the ways in which I am not so grown up.
Then reality hit me in the face. This woman, who smokes pot all day, and gets drunk every night, who has continued a college type lifestyle her entire life-- this person who I always joked thinks every night needs to be like Bonnaroo (an outdoor concert/festival) who childishly abandoned our marriage, and refuses to work on her biggest life commitment-- SHE is calling ME "childish".
I hate to sound self righteous and I always want to look within first but -- JEEZ. Facts are facts.
Her behaviour vs her words. You can see she is not behaving grown up. She is projecting her faults and guilt upon you. She blames you for the very faults she exhibits. Pure projection. Of course she knows you and therefore knows how to twist the knife and bring up just enough truth to make it believable. Do not take on all of the blame, only own your part of things. Work on those areas of valid criticisms.
If you hate to sound self righteous, then don’t. Let go the judgment of W. State the facts. Those are steps along the path. Steps towards detachment.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
W told me the issues in the marriage she had with me and said "If I would have said something earlier we probably could have worked through them but I let it go on to long and pretended that everything was okay and it went too far".
There is typically a point of no return they get to but this has more to do with her affair then anything else.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
This arbitrary "point of no return" really bothered me. First let's remember that most would agree that the issues she brought up, ALL of them were petty, not worth throwing a marriage away for, or at the very least, workable and in no way where these pervasive communicated problems that we had worked on for months or years.
95% of marriages with no abuse can be amended if you have both parties trying. This rarely happens hence why 50% of marriages end in divorce.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
They amount to: "My bathroom was messy/my room messy. I wasn't as active physically as she'd like. I didn't take an interest in her hiking hobby. I was on my phone/online too much. My anxiety affected us (even though her depression literally ruined our marriage".
This is all WW script.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
So her saying that the issues hit some arbitrary "point of no return" that she herself made up, really pissed me off. It is a marriage. It is important. We have all the time in the world moving forward. So that statement to me is nothing more than a statement of CONTROL. "I have decided this because of ME and I will not be moved from it."
Nah. She is telling you how she feels right now.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Yet, in the beginning I was gung ho at taking responsibility and telling her all the things I'd be happy to do to work on the marriage. And I was 100% sincere about it and didn't take it as her coming down on me or judging me. I want to be a better man and partner after all.
Become a better man for you not her.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
But in the following weeks, and it took a while, It finally dawned on me. "Yes, these are legitimate issues. They are not divorce worthy and they are the type of common problems present in nearly all marriages or relationships."
Right. But again remember that 50% of marriages end in divorce.
Originally Posted by LeeChild
According to our agreement we cohabitate but she wants to come in after her trips, where she stays away for weeks, and tell me to go to my Mom's for weeks at a time so she can stay home, alone. I told her I would not be doing that.
Good!
Originally Posted by LeeChild
I go on to say, I will not be bullied and ordered away from the home one her whims.
Good!
Originally Posted by LeeChild
Then reality hit me in the face. This woman, who smokes pot all day, and gets drunk every night, who has continued a college type lifestyle her entire life-- this person who I always joked thinks every night needs to be like Bonnaroo (an outdoor concert/festival) who childishly abandoned our marriage, and refuses to work on her biggest life commitment-- SHE is calling ME "childish".
So Lee this begs the question what are you trying to save?
I understand that from pragmatic perspective and a strategic perspective what has been show to work and not work when dealing with MLCers
But good God.
It's pretty hard to "validate their feelings" when they are telling you that they feel like they are actually a 73 foot tall mechanical lady-dragon from the 11th century.
Some of this past crap is open to interpretation and some of it isn't. And my (newly) Ex-wife was saying crap that was clearly, demonstrably false. .
Yes they are in vulnerable, powerful states of consciousness driven by seemingly ungovernable feelings but they are also making choices to hurt and maim and destroy, not only everything in their path currently, but they entire history of your lives together.
I know this is very difficult right now to wrap you arms around we have all been there.
Right now she only sees the bad in the marriage (that will change) and you only see the good (that will change).
You have no children so this will be an easier break. Read my tagline and focus on that and the rest will work itself out.
You each are on a journey and your paths may or may not cross again one day.
Oh I know and accept the bad in the marriage. Her part and my failures, and sins of commission and omission if you will.
I was under no illusions that marriage was all good-times, party time. So I expected some of this and I certainly expected rough times. but this crap is on a whole 'nother level & completely void of reason and logic.
Validation isn't about agreeing with what they're saying necessarily - it's about acknowledging that that is how THEY feel. Answers like "I'm sorry you feel that way" or "That must be difficult for you" do NOT include saying "yeah, you're right and I'm wrong". It's a way of keeping lines of communication open IF you want that.
I understand your need to get an answer or for her to admit what she is doing is wrong but you won't get it. And chasing it doesn't help you.
You never answered my question about the cohabitation. What happens to the house in the divorce agreement?
kml beat me to the punch. Active listening and validation have nothing to do with agreement. You're just showing that you understand how she feels and what she's saying to you. It often de-escalates, or at least doesn't escalate, a situation. It gets you out of the most common way of interacting--half hearting what others say as you come up with a defense or comeback.
"Wow, so when I eat a grape, you believe I'm threatening to become a cannibal and eat you." "I see you're angry. I hear you'd rather I stayed somewhere else."
