Interesting read. Though what I said still stands: If I could just get him to shutup, listen and understand your feelings he'd be much further ahead of the game!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
WF, first of all, you are such a catch of a human. The people in your life (H, D, SD) are so lucky to have wise, self-reflective you in their corner. Oh, the places they all can go leaping off the shoulders of your wisdom! Obviously, they all won't see it in the the moment (SD struggling with her teen-angst, H struggling with his FOO patterns), but you are so clearly the guiding light in your family. For better (them) or for worse (the onus upon you). Keep on with your (im)perfect, growth-mindset self and I have no doubt that the decades to come will allow you to bask in the sun of your perseverance and wisdom.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
We have managed to find a house. It's perfect even if it took 6 tries to get us there. We'll be closing in a couple weeks. I'll say it again. I hate that this is the way we had to take to get us here, but if this is what it took for us to not only talk about money like grown ups but to learn how to fight like grown ups I'll take it. I can't say enough about how much I love and appreciate this version of H. He is a much calmer more empathetic and reasonable man than the one in MR 1.0.
This, my dear, is EXACTLY what you wished for all those months ago when you were in the midst of the trauma of the AP and uncertainty of your M. Could I posit that it is even better than you imagined back in those days? You deserve this and good on H for being man enough to step into his half of the partnership. It seems that he is growing, despite his reticence for IC, in ways that really work for you and for your R. I still hope he considers IC, if nothing else for his FOO issues. And for the generational inheritance those FOO have on D17.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
In our dynamic that's only a very small portion of it. The reality is I'm the fixer. I fix the cars, the house, the kids...lol. I have to fix, fix, fix. But that is part of my personality as well as some hangover from growing up with an abusive/narcissistic parental figure. "If I can make every thing perfect then he won't rage" that kind of thought process. It takes a long time to work through those trauma responses. I've gotten much better given the 20 years of distance from that situation and a crap ton of therapy, but I still hang on to a lot of those super unhealthy behaviors because I was programmed in my formative years to be like that.
I have a different origin story to yours, but the need to fix/ease and enable calm is deeply engrained in me and has manifested in the same outcome as yours. The biggest lesson I am learning in my own process is that the only thing I can really, truly fix is myself. Not the cars or house (though I can), not the kids (though I am driven to) and certainly not my partner. In the process of releasing myself from my M, I am slowly recognizing that I no longer want to 'fix' anyone any longer. I would definitely give up my hard-learned lesson for an intact M and family, but in the absence of that, I hope that all my relationships in the future (friends, family members, lovers) are set on more equal footing where I am no more the 'fixer' than they are.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
The point of that very long story is, I was just quietly crying to myself. I'm a big girl. I can self soothe. I didn't ask for the help or even comfort. He takes that upon himself not just because he wants to fix but because it's a compulsion and I'm sure we'll have to have this conversation more than once. However, this was a big step in the right direction of this dynamic in our relationship that needs to be resolved.
I haven't experienced an equal partnership in this arena. But no more should your compulsion be to 'fix' things, than H's need to 'fix' you or your (sad, happy; negative, positive) emotions. SteveLW was too reductionist in this regard (sorry, Steve, I know what you meant in theory), but I have to agree that the utopian aim is for both partners to just hold each other's emotions without any sort of judgement, self-internalization or 'need' to change the other. Because ultimately, H's need to comfort you, eviscerate your sadness at losing house #4, is ultimately a selfish endeavor ('if only WF wasn't emotional about this, we could just move on to status quo and that would make me feel better').
Codependency can be such an insidious, though at the same time, innocent thing. Releasing ourselves from the codependent track is perhaps easier than 'training' our loved ones to do the same. You are taking the right steps towards this goal, clearly, and I encourage you to keep challenging yourself, and H, to own that what is yours, is yours and what is his, is his. So cry a river, at times, and make H witness it without trying to fix it (with communication: 'just hold me, that's all I need right now, don't worry, I'll be alright, it's not you, a part of me is sad at the moment and I just need to feel it right now'). And witness him in the same light.
You've got this, girl, all of it. I don't believe for one second that anything I am preaching is original to your natural, intuitive approach to life.
I haven't experienced an equal partnership in this arena. But no more should your compulsion be to 'fix' things, than H's need to 'fix' you or your (sad, happy; negative, positive) emotions. SteveLW was too reductionist in this regard (sorry, Steve, I know what you meant in theory), but I have to agree that the utopian aim is for both partners to just hold each other's emotions without any sort of judgement, self-internalization or 'need' to change the other. Because ultimately, H's need to comfort you, eviscerate your sadness at losing house #4, is ultimately a selfish endeavor ('if only WF wasn't emotional about this, we could just move on to status quo and that would make me feel better').
Sage, agreed. You nailed what I was trying to say. Though I stand by the concept I was espousing. Males typically try to fix the emotions of others. Even if a female is a "fixer", their motherly instincts win out when it comes to the feelings of others and they are much better at listening, understanding and comforting than are males. I have hardly ever heard a man tell his wife "Don't tell me how to feel!", but I have heard dozens of wives say those exact words to their husbands. Because we guys, selfishly as you so astutely point out, want to stop the emotions that are making us uncomfortable from our spouse. When a wife cries, her husband does internalize it. The male ego has a pretty simplistic outlook on this (sorry if that is reductionist but I didn't invent biology!): Wife is happy, I am doing my job. Wife is unhappy, I have failed!
WF's husband, no doubt, was feeling a sense of failure at losing out on house #4. And that was exasperated (unrightfully so) by WF's being sad at the loss. He couldn't fix not losing the house....so he tried to "fix" her emotions. As you point out it was a selfish endeavor, meant to make himself feel better as a husband! That was the crux of what I was trying to get at.
I can honestly say this is something I've grown in so much since BD 2017! I no longer try to "fix" her emotions. I have become a much better listener, comforter, understander (sic). My wife as a result sees me as a soft place to land when she is upset or sad. I also know through IC, self-study, and having a better understanding of the dynamics involved that her sadness or being upset does not mean I have failed as a husband! Once you can disconnect your wife's (this is for the husbands out there!) emotions from your feelings of success or failure, you can grow into the empathetic comforter that she sometimes needs.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Ok this is my sitch update before I move over to piecing. I'll update this every once in a while in order to bump my thread back up but we're on pretty solid ground and I don't know that I need to be updating here much in general.
We closed on the house a little over a month ago. It's been a journey. The home is beautiful we love it. It was a flip and they did an amazing job. In this process we had seen a lot of pigs with lipstick on. This was truly done with care, so we haven't had to do much to make the home "the way we like," we have however have been having to do a lot to make the house habitable as flippers make changes for resale not livability. You know things like any kind of window covering or toilet paper roll holders...lol. H gets very, very tense doing DIY stuff. It's been a point of contention before. Just hanging pictures has turned into full blown fights. And when I offer to just do it myself it makes things worse. He doesn't like me just doing it even thought I know how. I feel it's partly because of the machismo issue which he likes to pretend that's not a thing, but it is. I also think it bothers him that I know a lot of the DIY stuff because my exH and I redid the entire house we had bought. I know how to steam wall paper off, mud drywall, cut and lay tile, etc. I only think the latter because he'll bring it up sarcastically when I say I can do something. It got frustrating and I just kind of gave up and relegated myself to other tasks.
Leaving it alone actually kind of worked out. The more little projects he did, the more he was proud of the work he did. He eventually started finding some joy in it. And the more he did the more he enjoyed being able to brag that he did that himself. It's taken me some time to learn that dealing with the things that get under his skin I have to handle a lot like the way I handle those kinds of things with our Ds. I can't try to fix it or just do it myself. That I just need to let it be, exit myself from the situation, and let the chips fall where they may. Letting all of them come to me for help instead of trying to fix everything in the moment seems to make stuff like this less tense for everyone. I'm not stressing over how "wrong" they are doing things or preemptively worrying about how long it's gong to take before they give up and I have to do it. They aren't stressing that I'm judging how they are doing things. Letting them at least attempt completing things with out my input or influence gives them a sense of pride. The feeling of knowing they are coming and asking me when they can't quite do something because they appreciate my help feels so much better than feeling like I have to do everything for everyone all the time. Gotta maintain that 180. Letting go of the control and having patience.
Girls both have summer jobs this year. D18 loves her craft store job. D17 managed to find a job that was willing to wait until she's done with her summer school stuff before she starts. Hoping D18 will have a license by fall. Not that she'll be able to drive to school as there's no parking, and what parking there is astronomical, but the hauling around was something I did not miss during lock down. H is training for another marathon in fall, but his knee is already giving him problems. I'm not a fan of his desire to keep training, but he wants to do the Chicago for his 40th and he promised me he'll be done with the marathon running after that and focus more on the biking after that. I'm switching my master's program. I've been feeling particularly unfulfilled and frustrated with my program as a whole so I'm moving into a program with a career change in mind that will start in fall. I'm pretty excited.
H has agreed to some online marriage programming stuff. Which I think is good. He's still trying super hard. He works every day to show me how much he loves me. He's working very hard on his patience with our girls. He's getting much better at setting boundaries with his family. I'm just so proud of the growth in him. And I'm relieved to not have to be in the mediator position between him and the girls or the bad guy position with his family. It's crazy how different this version of H is from the one who was going to leave me, and even that guy I fell in love with.
Hi!!! It is so good to have an update from you. Congrats on the house-- that is huge!! And glad of course to hear how well everything is going, with your Ds and your H and changing your master's program. I'm so happy for you.
When I read this post about your H getting ultra frustrated with the projects and you letting him be, I felt a bit of deja vu... I didn't take the time to walk through all your threads, but I feel like this is something that has happened before, maybe a year ago? Maybe it was in/re his parenting techniques rather than DIY stuff, IDK. If I am remembering correctly, though, it brings extra resonance to this line:
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Gotta maintain that 180.
Don't we all! I have been thinking about this a lot, lately. I think I need to spend some time back focused on myself and my 180s-- I guarantee I've been slipping in some areas. It is funny too how years of behavioral patterns between two people just take soooooo much time to wear away...one tiny slip up and reversion to the old behaviors and we're both suddenly in the same place we were years ago. (And/or, does it work that way with you too? Or just me???)
What were your other 180s, WF? Also, how are the girls doing? Do they ever bring up the whole sitch with you?
We had MC today and she said something interesting that made me think of you... she asked us (mostly me) to reframe the A so that the marriage was the victim, that it wasn't something that happened to ME but to my marriage... and then that the marriage isn't a victim, but a survivor. It seemed to me that you maybe always framed it that way? Thoughts?
xoxo May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Wayfarer this is some good stuff and it sounds like you are heading in the right direction. Due to your ages if your H is interested in self help I recommend the book “ The Happiness U-curve”. It’s a fascinating book based on tons of data how humans happiness is shaped in a u curve. Unfortunately it’s about to bottom out for you lol. I think it’s good to know that it’s just how life goes and not necessarily the circumstances. Interestingly enough studies show it’s the same in apes.
Also, I was wondering if you can take a look at Scotty Bs thread. I’m friends with someone on here and we disagree the main cause of the D. I find your takes honest and interesting. Thanks.
When I read this post about your H getting ultra frustrated with the projects and you letting him be, I felt a bit of deja vu... I didn't take the time to walk through all your threads, but I feel like this is something that has happened before, maybe a year ago? Maybe it was in/re his parenting techniques rather than DIY stuff, IDK. If I am remembering correctly, though,
It's been an issue from the second we moved in together so I'm sure I mentioned it before. Probably multiple times. It was one of my biggest fears buying the house. Like I need an appointment with my IC I can't sleep at night fears. I was right. He was just straight up obnoxious at first, like I would go to the basement or garage to "organize" and just cry level of obnoxious. But part of all that emotion was because I didn't know what to say or do to get him to chill out. But that's on me trying to fix everything. Make it nice so he's calm and happy. Ahhh trauma responses
Originally Posted by may22
Don't we all! I have been thinking about this a lot, lately. I think I need to spend some time back focused on myself and my 180s-- I guarantee I've been slipping in some areas. It is funny too how years of behavioral patterns between two people just take soooooo much time to wear away...one tiny slip up and reversion to the old behaviors and we're both suddenly in the same place we were years ago. (And/or, does it work that way with you too? Or just me???)
I think every human person is capable of back sliding. Just as every human person is capable of growth. We slip back in to crappy patterns because there's comfort there for one reason or another. As long as you can see it happening and do your best to try not to immediately revert or regress you're doing your best. We're all works in progress.
Originally Posted by may22
What were your other 180s, WF?
Ok so not trying to fix everything was one of the biggies. But that breaks down into smaller things like relinquishing control, patience, and asking why I feel it's my responsibility to fix stuff.
Self care was a really big one that's gone out the window. But emptying the old place and settling in to the new place with a recent high school grad, a kid in summer school 1/2 by choice and 1/2 because she just stopped doing working in US History, and an H training for a marathon in Oct is more responsibility than I would like is resting on my shoulders and I simply don't have time. However starting my bday weekend all of the self care is coming back. Hair, nails, gym, baths, all of it. Partly because it keeps me sane, partly because I deserve it, and partly because I'm not going to put myself on the back burner longer than that ever again. I can feel some of my depressive tendencies creep in when I'm spread thin like this with zero time to myself. My H appreciates the upkeep. Granted he loves me and is attracted to me either way. But a shinier sunnier version of me is clearly preferred and I can't say I blame him. I like her better too.
Honestly GAL is a 180 for me. I'm a home body but with my depression I tend to like full on isolate and with my life right now being work, eat , old house, new house, sleep, repeat it feels like isolation so that's making me feel for the lack of a better term, sad. I'm a happier me when I'm living my life and not trudging along in it.
Oh and another big one is I won't just eat it when H says something that hurts my feelings or in totally inappropriate way to talk to me. I swallowed it for a long time. Just trying to keep things peaceful. I kind of decided through all of this I will fight with a stranger for a stranger if they are being mistreated but I won't do that with the people I live with and love because I'm so deeply conditioned to keep my mouth shut. I don't want to be her any more. I want to be who I was before my step-dad figuratively and literally beat that out of me. And clearing the air in the moment points out something I immediately don't like and it stops me from harboring resentment.
Originally Posted by may22
Also, how are the girls doing? Do they ever bring up the whole sitch with you?
So the girls very rarely bring it up. D17 dragged out her angst over the whole thing for so long that I don't know that there's much else to cover at that point. She really made H earn it. Not that he shouldn't have, but it was even to the point of D18 and I being like Ok well he didn't murder someone. It was miserable for all of us but not a year's worth of making him pay for it. It wasn't even a years worth of misery.
D18 likens the situation to her situation her sophomore year of high school. She's been with the same boy since they were in 7th and 8th grade. The summer between her Freshman year and Sophomore year, his Sophomore and Junior year her bf started getting weird. They fought all the time. He started hanging around friends she didn't like. Then he "cheated" (in the context of like sophomores not the real deal) they may have made out. I'm not 100% on that. She dropped him immediately. Started dating an 18 year old college Freshman, (that was an adventure, and a story for another time). That fizzled out and she just got really involved in school and hanging out with her friends from school, middle school and her restaurant job. The bf kept messaging her. She'd ignore him most of the time. Eventually his new gf tried to fight D18 (yet another story for another time, there was cyber stalking and harassment involved prior, not on my D's end, I almost had to get an injunction on that girl, it was a whole thing) and exbf got fed up with the new gf's crazy and dumped her. Summer came a couple months later and he started talking to D18 again, often, and she'd actually respond from time to time as she deemed fit. They eventually started hanging out again, and then they started dating again by Homecoming. The way she sees H's issue is much the way she saw her bf's. That the grass looked a lot greener until it wasn't, and while there are better ways to handle it, it's a fairly common and human response. As long as remorse and atonement are there then everyone can move on.
Originally Posted by may22
We had MC today and she said something interesting that made me think of you... she asked us (mostly me) to reframe the A so that the marriage was the victim, that it wasn't something that happened to ME but to my marriage... and then that the marriage isn't a victim, but a survivor. It seemed to me that you maybe always framed it that way? Thoughts?
Honestly I never stated it that way but that's exactly how I felt. I never felt like what he did he did to me. He did it to us. And the more detached I became the more I saw that "us" like the royal "us." LOL. That what he did while it broke my heart to pieces was done to who we were, not me, and definitely not who I was becoming, and it wasn't done to who we could be on the other side. The MR 2.0 idea really helped me conceptualize that. But I really do like the succinct way MC framed that.
Wayfarer this is some good stuff and it sounds like you are heading in the right direction. Due to your ages if your H is interested in self help I recommend the book “ The Happiness U-curve”. It’s a fascinating book based on tons of data how humans happiness is shaped in a u curve. Unfortunately it’s about to bottom out for you lol. I think it’s good to know that it’s just how life goes and not necessarily the circumstances. Interestingly enough studies show it’s the same in apes.
I actually read a lot about the U-curve when all of this started happening. I am going to grab a copy to have it around and see if I can get him to read it. I keep hope that because we're so behind on the typical American life that maybe we exist outside that curve. I doubt it. But one can hope.
Originally Posted by LH19
Also, I was wondering if you can take a look at Scotty Bs thread. I’m friends with someone on here and we disagree the main cause of the D. I find your takes honest and interesting. Thanks.
I'll go take a look. I think I've grazed his sitch before.
LH sweet jesus, you could've warned me there were a dozen threads to get through. This may take me a while. I still have to like do my job and live my life...lol
