Fierce Gerda! You are truly a role model. I love the thought of that L crying. KML, thanks for sharing this site! I feel like you could be a financial planner yourself. D, I would love to share some shortcake with you. Eagle, thank you so much for the encouragement. I am on my phone and need to go back and properly re-read your posts. I can’t quote now since I’m starting a new thread. I will always be grateful to bttrfly for helping give me this heading. It remains my north star. Sage, I’m thinking about you and wondering how you are. Kindly, you too. (May, your thread is over 100, but I hope you are well think of you often. You too, WF.)
Gerda, the financial planner I referred to before actually happens to be a CDFA. He is the one who I spoke with briefly last year, who said don’t give up the pension. He seemed to pick up on the fact that I was feeling especially unworthy and tired and ready to be done with all this and wanted to shore me up. I’ve reached out to him for some help figuring out numbers (I’ve never talked specifics with him before), and he asked two questions I’m not sure how to answer:
“Did he provide you with what the monthly community property interest would be for the amount you would be entitled to, at retirement? Secondly, did he provide you with the present day value of the contract? In other words, what that future value would be in present day dollars.“
Do you know if there’s a way I can find this out on my own? I can talk with the CDFA about this when we set a meeting, but maybe all of you smart people can guide me beforehand.
I’m not sure what he means by the first - I’m guessing that’s planner-speak for the $675 a month figure? Which btw is in today’s dollars.
The present day value is that figure that I tried to ballpark estimate - something like the $66,000. However the formulas used to calculate that by the pension plans are often not as favorable to you - they might use a lower inflation assumption, definitely a lower life expectancy etc. You could try speaking to HR first to see if they can give you that information to you without having to go through ex.
Just a quick note to check in and see how you are doing! Any progress on the pension? If you haven't tried to speak directly to the HR office of your H's company, you should. Were you married when he first started working there? If he put you down as his spouse, you should be listed as a beneficiary. I am by no means an expert, but at my last job we had a pension plan that we were working on closing down, and the HR folks had a spreadsheet that included the present-day value of each pension. If you don't want to call, you could also probably write a letter and request the information.
Another thing you could do is look through paperwork you have at the house-- I *think* all pensions are required to send an annual notice to vested participants that says what your expected monthly benefit would be if you retire at age (whatever). I bet if you found the most recent copy of that letter, you could probably back out what the present value is. (sorry if I'm missing some of the story!)
Any baking lately?
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Hello again, lovely people! No progress on the pension or in general. It has been about a month since H wanted to talk about an agreement and said he would give me pension info and that he was planning on amending the filing. The talkative, super friendly H who’s been around for the past six months is back to the one who wears headphones much of the time and says little.
May, thank you for stopping by! I so hope things are going well at your new job and with your family. I need to see if you’ve updated.
The financial advisor said we really just need to do a qdro—why is H dragging his heels, there’s no question that I will get my portion of the pension, etc. With no assets, he does not think it’s possible for H to offer a payout. I emailed our retirement department to see if I could get a copy of H’s statement last week but haven’t heard anything back. Statements are online, so no chance of looking through old mail.
My IC recommends now I just reach out to my L and have her contact H’s L and try to get things moving. She too sees the pattern of H saying he’ll do something or give me something snd then doing nothing. For two years. I’m filled with this feeling of dread now and then that nothing will ever move forward, because he’s not able to act—for the last two years his room has been a disaster, trash bags he never takes out, etc. To me it’s another outward symbol of his avoidance and MLC. If he can’t bring himself to take out his trash, how will he ever finish a D? As you know, there are lots more fun things to take up an MLCer’s time.
I could try to approach him one more time. “H, my L is asking for an update. What should I tell her?” Or, “Where are you at with amending the (annulment) filing to a D so we can get this settled?”
Or I could just contact my L and see if she wants to talk to his L or try to send over an offer.
Any thoughts on either path?
I spend too much time thinking about whether H will get angry again and drag this out more somehow, make a simple situation more difficult. But then I remember he is already doing just that. Should I fear what is already happening?
Having returned from a visit to see family, having for the first time in 1 1/2 years had real physical distance from H and this place, surrounded by people who love me, i feel much the same way Sage does. I accept the D. I accept that H is out of reach now and for the indefinite future. I like the life I am making on my own. I’m excited to see how much lighter my days could be without his shadow in the house.
Oh, and one other complicating factor is that there is a chance I’ll be getting a promotion in the next 3-6 months, which will give me less to negotiate with regarding support. I still won’t make as much as him, but it is a tiny chip I have to bargain with at the moment. The odds that any agreement with H would happen in that time frame seem about nil! I suppose I need to remember that I cannot control a lot of these variables.
I think about all of you, my friends, here often. It's because of you I've been able to get through the last two and a half years and am still standing, if exhausted. I thought I would update when something of interest happened, but I couldn't summon the energy to log in. I wondered how you were all doing. I imagined each of you healthy, happy, situations resolved, finally (especially you, Gerda!). I sent loving kindness in your direction. And then today, I thought I should log in and say Happy Thanksgiving, and tell you again how thankful I am for your support.
Two updates for me: A month ago, my H finally had his L change from an annulment to a D. That was progress. Of course, his L messed up the two-page document a couple of times, and it took much longer than it should have! My L is now convinced H's L doesn't know much about family law, and that we will have to serve discovery in order to get H to just complete his disclosures so we can finish this D. He's on his own timeline, though, as always, and I don't feel at the moment compelled to spend my dwindling L money to escalate things in that way, especially as there's not much left to negotiate: H recently told me he will be moving out by the first of the year. The things I spent so much time here worrying about--losing the pets, the house--seem to be off the list of worries. It does seem that this timeline of H's, though at times agonizing for me, has slowly allowed his anger to dissipate, though the blame and unwillingness to do any self-examination remains.
He hasn't accused me of anything since I last posted. We say hi and good morning, and that's usually it. Every once in a while he says or does something that reminds me of who we used to be together, and I am sad. Same with his moving out--I've longed for it and still I know there's going to be more grief, even as I am ready for this. Another stage of letting go, moving on. Now and then I'm still surprised that someone you've spent so much of your life with can be gone from your life just like that. Of course, he's been gone, if still present, for two and a half years, but the sounds he makes about the house are still familiar, sometimes a strange comfort.
My promotion finally became official. It looks like the new year might be a new start in many ways.
D, Gerda, may, WF, bttrfly, kml, Sage, job, Eagle, PLC--everyone here!--Happy Thanksgiving! I will always be grateful for you and will always wish the best for you.
Congrats on the promotion! I never understood the lyric to that song “God bless the child that’s got his own” until I was getting divorced. Having the wherewithal to take care of ourselves is powerful.
It’s crazy how long it takes some MLCers to go through with the divorce they wanted. I liken it to Erica Jong’s “zipless f—k”, where clothes simply fall off with no awkward fumbling with buttons and zippers, and there are no consequences. Some MLCers seem to expect a “zipless divorce”, where there’s no tedious paperwork or lawyer fees and they don’t have to give up a thing while they ride off into their new fantasy life.
Congratulations on the promotion! The new year looks so very promising for you! I am so glad that things are finally starting to turn around for you and your little daughter.
Don't be a stranger! You know you are always welcome to come back and post updates...we are all family in one way or another. Please take care of yourself and know that we all love you.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I've been thinking about you so often lately. Something about the holidays I think. I'm so happy to hear things are going well. Congratulations on that promotion. And don't be a stranger!! I'm happy to hear about what your baking or how gardening is going for you. Best of luck my friend.
(((Cardinal))) It is so good to hear from you. I'm so happy to hear that your H is moving out and you'll be able to stay in your house. Congratulations on the promotion and I second WF-- don't be a stranger! Share your baking recipes and gardening stories!!
xoxo May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Long story short (a good reminder to believe actions, not words):
I discovered a few weeks before H was supposed to be moving out, he was not moving out. It fell through, he said, but he was still looking for a place. Fast forward to January—my dreams of having the house (finally!) to myself dashed, and I find out H has had a fever and other covid symptoms and didn’t bother to tell me, all while he’s still using my bathroom. He tested positive and luckily agreed to stick to his bathroom, his room, and wear a mask. Halfway through his isolation period, he wanted to use my bath instead of his. I asked him to wait until his isolation period was over, and he went off in a huff.
Somehow, I did not get covid. Ever since this, though, he seems to be more passive aggressive. He abruptly stopped using my bathroom at all post-covid, even though for the last two and a half years he’s taken a bath in it almost every day (good for me—I don’t have to clean up after him any more!).
He’s started working only in his room and keeping the door shut that separates the tiny front of the house/front door/his room. The pets can no longer use that part of the house, and if I want to leave through the front door, I have to now open this other door.
Today: I’m in a great mood, until I come home and find he has a girl in his room. The house is so tiny, I can hear all of their conversation, and I can’t focus at all. I don’t care if this is a friend or otherwise; the point is neither of us had had anyone else in the house since BD (summer 2019!). Once covid happened, this became even more important to me, because I don’t want to be exposed to his friends.
Question: what do I do? I am very angry at having my house infiltrated without his even running it by me (not that I’d expect that of him). I can’t enjoy a quiet evening after a very busy week at work. Who knows how long they’ll be in there. Right now I’m livid, but I assume these feelings will pass. I also assume he wants a reaction out of me.
Do I say nothing and hope it’s a one time thing? Or do I somehow attempt to set a boundary?
Ah, friends, I’m sorry to be posting for these reasons, yet I know you all will understand.
Also, for context, he finally changed the annulment he initially filed over a year ago to a divorce last fall. His disclosures were due at the beginning of the month, but of course they haven’t appeared. We are both on the lease. I really do think he thought he was moving out. We talked about what stuff we would divide, which we’d never done before, and he told other people he was moving out.
My cousin said I should go introduce myself as his wife. 🆠These are making me laugh, but I’m feeling very trapped, like there’s nothing legally I can do do make him move or move the divorce along. I really thought I’d waited him out. Now I worry he’s changed his mind and is going to refuse to leave again. The only play I’ve had is to stay focused on myself, ignore him, and wait for him to want to move out, want to take any action on this thing. It was happening on his very slow timeline…
Yes, crank up the tunes. Watch a movie. Open that door that separates the front of the house and front door from the rest. Make lots of noise. H can shut his bedroom door if he wants.
Your house. Don’t walk on eggshells!
You are correct, there is nothing legally you can do. However, maybe you need to vacuum the front area. Right now. Lol. Lots of vacuuming with lots of banging into the door.
And I like the idea of introducing yourself to this gal. Hello I’m the wife. Who are you? Why are you here? No, you don’t belong here. No, I really don’t care what you think.
This is your house! You can know who is in your house. And you can encourage them to get out as well.
I do agree he is probably trying to get a reaction out of you. Don’t react out of anger, and play into his scheme. Do not take the bait. Flip the script.
Seriously, crank up the tunes. Watch a movie. Vermin don’t like noise and commotion. He and her can go work elsewhere. After all he was suppose to move out. How dare he delay your life. Live as if he had.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
And now it smells strongly of pot in my room! They must be vaping. If I open the door, it’ll just get worse. Unfortunately, he has no door on his room, just the one outside it. Do I ask them to vape outside? I don’t trust myself to say anything because I might just start screaming.
Okay, she’s gone and I can go to bed at the time I wanted to, and I’m starting to feel calmer. I’m glad I didn’t try to say anything to them. I was too angry. This is part of such a clear pattern of passive aggression. With time I think I can tease out my feelings and understand I’m angry because yet more boundaries are being crossed, because I don’t have as much control over this living situation as I’d like, but if his guests stay in his room/front of the house, they can’t actually hurt me. Is there as much power in not caring (if I can get there) as there is in addressing the situation with him, letting him know I feel disrespected, coming to a roommate agreement of upfront notice, masking in common areas, etc? But isn’t that what normal roommates do, not MLCers?
Still there is the sense that my safe space was/is being violated, right after he exposed me to covid and didn’t tell me. It feels like this is more of him trying to exert control over me. My space has already been violated by him in so many ways over the past years, and now he’s found a new way to do it. I sense the better choice is to stay the course, say nothing, let him tire eventually of the limitations of this arrangement. Many things he’s done have been difficult for me in the past, but I’m in better shape now to handle it because I’ve let go of any desire to have him in my life. I love my life now; I’m just ready for him to go on his own path. But this thing has gone on so long, and I’m still obviously struggling with the prospect of major change that didn’t happen—it’s hard to summon the strength and will to keep going. To keep sharing space with his dysfunction, anger, blame, and pain. It’s no longer so much that *my H* is inconsiderate and unkind and controlling and all of this, but that a person living in my house is. It’s exhausting. I was so close, though! About to send off the new lease with just my name on it the day he told me he wasn’t moving.
Thanks for being here and letting my document my unraveling tonight.
I am glad to read you feel calmer and better. We were online at the same time last night and I was agitated just reading about the shenanigans. Well done in living it!
I deleted a last night post that had words like floozy, betrayal, and such. And probably would have lead to yelling. I think your method yielded better results. Lol.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Is there as much power in not caring (if I can get there) as there is in addressing the situation with him, letting him know I feel disrespected, coming to a roommate agreement of upfront notice, masking in common areas, etc? But isn’t that what normal roommates do, not MLCers?
There is power in indifference, which is different than “not caring”.
The power is not in being able to force H do behave, it is how you behave. What you allow to bother you. In that light, there is more power in indifference than trying to address H in the situation.
Getting a MLCer to do something is like herding cats. MLCers are not a normal roommate, as you well know.
Boundaries are good, telling him he is being disrespectful is good. Those are for you and your mental/emotional health; not a way to get or force him to behave a certain way.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I sense the better choice is to stay the course, say nothing, let him tire eventually…
A pretty good plan. Unless you choose something.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I was so close, though! About to send off the new lease with just my name on it the day he told me he wasn’t moving.
You control you.
You could move out and leave him the place.
I realize that is not option number one. However, oftentimes knowing you do have other options can provide strength and resilience to continue. It’s odd, how that knowledge of other choices removes the feeling of defeat from been stuck in a situation, to one of perseverance to see it through.
Does he have a new proposed date of leaving?
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi Cardinal, wow, that's jaw-dropping what you went through last night. I have no advice to offer just now--just wanted to let you know others are reading and care.
dealing with an MLCr is akin to living with an actively drinking or drugging substance abuser: they are incapable of consideration for others
However, indifference usually drives them mad. Expect a possible uptick in bad behavior. Stay the course on indifference. You lose every time you engage. You don't have to go to every fight you're invited to.
Getting into a passive aggressive battle won't help you feel any better. Explore other options - leaving the house for a while if he's got guests, talking to lawyer about any legal options you may have (thin, but possible) ...
Ultimately you cannot control the behavior of another and will only drive yourself mad trying. So, what do you need to live your best life? Write it out. Seeing it on paper helps solidify things. Then figure out how to get there. You may be surprised.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Yuck. Sorry that happened. He has passive-aggressive behaviour nailed, doesn’t he? You would think he would be more motivated to leave if he is going to be inviting women over. To be fair to her, she may very well have little to no idea about your situation.
I agree with Bttrfly. No point in getting into a contest of passive aggressive behaviour. This may just be a one off or it may be a sign of things to come. Either way, you can only control you and in my opinion, you did a fantastic job of it. What is that mantra around here?? When in doubt, do nothing. Consider all of your options and make a plan. No harm in asking him what his plans are in terms of a move out date as long as you phrase it as a question and not an accusation. If you are going to try to devise a plan with his cooperation, you are definitely going to want to do it when you’re not angry with something he just did. Choose your moment wisely.
I haven't read through your whole situation, so not sure what you & H are still sharing a house, but he is certainly treating you with extreme disrespect. I cam imagine it would be infuriating he had a girl over smoking together in his room with you right there in the house. Not sure what I would've done, but good for you for showing restraint. The actions we desire to take in those circumstances often feel good only for a short time and then we regret them.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
Wow, you handled a very hard situation well! I think you got a lot of great advice, so not much to add there. Just that I was checking in and sad to see what happened last night. Sending you strength in dealing with H’s MLC crazy behavior and hoping things resolve soon. This can’t go on forever…so hopefully that helps you manage the difficult stuff in the moment.
Hugs,
El
Me 52, H 56 T10 M7, 2nd MR for both 2 Step Sons (19 and 21) BD: Fall 2020 D finalized: July 2022 XH Married AP soon after D day.
However, indifference usually drives them mad. Expect a possible uptick in bad behavior. Stay the course on indifference.
Whew, boy.
Thanks to all of you for your support here. It really helped me feel less alone. I was going to write an update about what I'm learning from my anger, and about how I've really felt power in indifference the last several days. But now I am here for a different reason. An uptick in bad behavior.
H packed stuff this morning, as he does pretty regularly, for a short trip away to wherever he goes. I was looking forward to having the house to myself for a few days at least. Tonight he texts me--as I'm getting ready for bed--btw his best friend might be crashing here tonight, just FYI.
That was not something I could be indifferent to. I responded that I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight with no notice and without him here, nor was I okay with someone I did not know having a key. I requested advance notice and also said I was not comfortable without certain precautions because we are still in a pandemic.
This was over a few texts, and each time, his reply was incredulous, pointing out how I was being dramatic and unreasonable, and he wouldn't care if I did all this so it shouldn't matter what I wanted, and his friend is having a bad day, etc etc.
I tried to restate my requests as politely as I could. Advance notice, he would have to be here when his guest is here overnight, etc. He could not provide me with a yes, just lots of push back and saying basically what does it matter, they're going to be coming in after I'm asleep anyway--as if having a stranger enter your house after you've gone to sleep is better!
Luckily I had a friend to help me through this while I texted. Luckily I am in much better shape to understand nearly three years into this that this is more gaslighting, and though I may feel the guilt he's trying to heap on me, it's just an old reaction, not reflective of anything I am actually doing wrong.
Even after bttrfly's words, I was taken off guard though. This seemed so clearly over the line to me. My reaction was my gut telling me to not be indifferent about this. It was, I think, a good example of this for me:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Boundaries are good, telling him he is being disrespectful is good. Those are for you and your mental/emotional health; not a way to get or force him to behave a certain way.
Finally I got a couple of thumbs ups from him, but also he could not tell me how often she would be here--"randomly." Who knows if he will abide by any of this. Usually he makes a big show of how horrible it is that I assert myself at all, but does respect my requests. I'm not sure if I need to talk to my L about a roommate agreement or what. H did say this was all ridiculous because he's hopefully moving out soon anyway, so at least I know that's still on his mind. Though his idea of "soon" is usually very different than mine (see: BD 2019).
I'm glad this exchange took place over text, because I could consider my words and appear calm. I thanked him for agreeing (kicking and screaming) to my requests. I can also read the exchange to my IC or anyone and again receive reassurance that, no, haha, nothing I said was unreasonable.
I must say I am a bit afraid at what might come next. I am hoping this is yet another annoyance that will add to his list of reasons to move out, as he says. Maybe he's just got to blow up at me a few more times on his way out the door. If anyone has any good reminders/mantras on how to stay strong through the next leg of this, I'm all ears.
One more note to say I think it helped that I was reading about fierce self-compassion last night and about saying no. Yet I am still picking apart all of the words I chose and wondering if I could have chosen better ones, if I could have seemed even calmer. That is not exactly fierce self-compassion. I am pleased that I said “This is not okay” rather than “you can’t….” I am also reminding myself that even if I said the perfect thing perfectly, objectively phrased, whatever that would be in this scenario, it wouldn’t matter. I would get the same reaction from him. Still working on getting sucked into trying to control for his reactions, I suppose, but I am more aware of that than I once was.
I’ve learned so much about myself through IC and reading and meditation and from this board and friends in the last few years, and I am grateful for all the growth that has come from this experience, grateful for a lot of things that at one point I couldn’t imagine being grateful for.
That was not something I could be indifferent to. I responded that I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight with no notice and without him here, nor was I okay with someone I did not know having a key.
It's completely reasonable you would not want a person you do not know to stay in your house, especially when it's H's friend and H won't be there.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I requested advance notice and also said I was not comfortable without certain precautions because we are still in a pandemic.
I wouldn't even mention the pandemic angle - it's reasonable even without a pandemic.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Luckily I am in much better shape to understand nearly three years into this that this is more gaslighting, and though I may feel the guilt he's trying to heap on me, it's just an old reaction, not reflective of anything I am actually doing wrong.
Good!
Originally Posted by cardinal
btw his best friend might be crashing here tonight, just FYI.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight
Originally Posted by cardinal
Finally I got a couple of thumbs ups from him, but also he could not tell me how often she would be here--"randomly."
This "best friend" you don't know is a female? This seems...
Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm not sure if I need to talk to my L about a roommate agreement or what.
Seems to be you'd be within your rights to refuse someone entering your house without your husband there to allow it. Not sure about when he is there - in which case you also might not what someone there - you might ask your L for advice there so you know your rights.
H did say this was all ridiculous because he's hopefully moving out soon anyway, so at least I know that's still on his mind. Though his idea of "soon" is usually very different than mine (see: BD 2019).
Originally Posted by cardinal
Maybe he's just got to blow up at me a few more times on his way out the door. If anyone has any good reminders/mantras on how to stay strong through the next leg of this, I'm all ears.
He's acting with extreme disrespect. Take the initiative and back up his stuff for him and show him the door. Looking back I wish I had acted stronger in the beginning (as do many of us here).
Originally Posted by cardinal
One more note to say I think it helped that I was reading about fierce self-compassion last night and about saying no. Yet I am still picking apart all of the words I chose and wondering if I could have chosen better ones, if I could have seemed even calmer. That is not exactly fierce self-compassion. I am pleased that I said “This is not okay” rather than “you can’t….”
Good to be reflective and work on it, but also...
Originally Posted by cardinal
I am also reminding myself that even if I said the perfect thing perfectly, objectively phrased, whatever that would be in this scenario, it wouldn’t matter.
Very true.
I would get the same reaction from him. Still working on getting sucked into trying to control for his reactions, I suppose, but I am more aware of that than I once was.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I’ve learned so much about myself through IC and reading and meditation and from this board and friends in the last few years, and I am grateful for all the growth that has come from this experience, grateful for a lot of things that at one point I couldn’t imagine being grateful for.
Awesome! :-)
Hang in there...
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
Good job standing up for yourself. Indifference in appropriate situations, i.e. the small and semi-small stuff, will usually carry the day ... This was not that kind of a situation, and you handled it beautifully.
I think BL has a point. I apologize Cardinal, I'm somewhat out of the loop on the current state of affairs with your sitch, so I hope this isn't something you've already stated -- can you kick him out? What's the current status? I gather he said he'd leave and now has excuses to stay?
Is is worthwhile to contact your lawyer, explain the current sitch and kick him out? This is mental abuse.
We come here hoping to save our marriages; well, some flat out cannot be saved. Sometimes a couple has to break apart to come back together better, stronger, and more deeply in love than before. Sometimes a couple just has to break apart, period.
Looking back at my own sitch, the mental and emotional abuse that went on from BD, through selling our family home and even after the D was so intense and constant that I'm not sure how I survived it. Certainly having him across the country every other week gave me a much needed break, and coming here was also a life saver. I do not know how you are able to live with this, and give you full props.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
I’ve learned so much about myself through IC and reading and meditation and from this board and friends in the last few years, and I am grateful for all the growth that has come from this experience, grateful for a lot of things that at one point I couldn’t imagine being grateful for.
This resonated deeply with me.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
BL and buttrfly, thank you for the reassurance that I was indeed not overreacting. Funny how even though I knew this as it was unfolding, the doubts do rear up again. I am totally fine and have been for a while with him leaving; there’s no marriage to save, and he’d need to do a lot of internal work before he would be a good partner to anyone. Unfortunately, his name is also on the lease, and my L has informed me in the past there’s no way to remove him, short of coming to a divorce agreement, which we would be negotiating if he would share his disclosures so that we are on equal negotiating footing. Sigh. I will be reaching out to L to see if there’s anything else we can do to increase the chance things will move along. Now I need to work on shoring up my boundaries so that his angry reactions to my boundaries remain his. He can feel his feelings; I don’t want to take them on.
Wow. H is certainly working to push your buttons. Well done remaining calm and not taking the bait.
You are spot on with your assessment of this scenario. It’s wildly inappropriate that H thinks having some stranger sleeping over is ok.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I'm glad this exchange took place over text, because I could consider my words and appear calm. I thanked him for agreeing (kicking and screaming) to my requests. I can also read the exchange to my IC or anyone and again receive reassurance that, no, haha, nothing I said was unreasonable.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I am pleased that I said “This is not okay” rather than “you can’t….”
Yes, this taking place over text is a good thing. It gives you a pause to choose proper wording and, maybe more importantly, provides a record. This is not a he said, she said, situation. You have it in writing. That is extremely valuable.
Keep conversations with H to the text format as long as you can. Luckily, H doesn’t want the voice to voice conflict and is choosing texting. The finesse part of dealing with MLCers/WAS/STBXH or W is letting them think it is their idea.
I’m very proud of you. You stuck to your guns, stayed calm, and pushed back. In the end, no random stranger.
I’d speak to your L. Get it in writing who is allowed to be on the premises. And who is not.
I’d also install one of those door chain locks. You know the little brass chains that slides into place and only allows the door to be opened about 2 inches. As a person going to sleep in her house, with her H away, it is perfectly reasonable to “extra” lock the door. This is not “changing the locks” so there is no legal repercussions. I’d definitely do this.
Any random unwelcome or unannounced friend of H’s will met a door they can turn a key in, but would need to bust it down to get in. At that point, the homeowner/person on the lease, can easily call the police and things will get sorted out real quick.
Originally Posted by cardinal
That was not something I could be indifferent to. I responded that I was not okay with someone I did not know staying overnight with no notice and without him here, nor was I okay with someone I did not know having a key.
I think you handled this pretty indifferently.
Indifference doesn’t manifest with inaction. You did not get dragged around by your emotions (detachment). You remained clear and calm, and numb towards H’s feelings and behaviours (indifferent). You acted upon your rational thoughts. And took appropriate action.
Earlier, I stated you stuck to your guns, remained calm, and pushed back. Yes pushed back. Not enforced a boundary. Let me expanded.
A boundary is an action you would take. In this case: H, if a stranger enters my house, I’m calling the police.
Stating the boundary is like pushing back, enforcing a boundary is calling the police.
You handled it like a pro!
Now, get that door chain.
Have a great Sunday cardinal.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
So good to hear from you and grateful for the update, even if spurred on by a difficult situation. FWIW I think you are handling this all so, so well. I love DnJ's idea of a door chain for your own safety. In/re the visitor while you were home-- I also am so impressed with how you handled it. I think it probably would have felt good in the moment to introduce yourself/play loud music/etc., but probably in the long run you're closer to your goal of getting him out the way you handled things.
For those who haven't followed Cardinal, she's definitely put in the work of really understanding herself and what she needs, and FWIW I have faith that she's making the right decisions for the right reasons, even though this current situation is so difficult. She can't kick out her H and this house is extremely beneficial for a whole bunch of reasons, including its affordability. She's researched moving out and staying in her current town or moving back to her hometown, and decided to stay the current path to keep her home. (At least, this was the last I recall.) Though I do wish wish wish he would GTFO and let her start her new life in peace. And maybe at some point she'll decide that her path is better sought by moving out herself. Cardinal, do you remember to keep checking in on yourself with all of this?
BL, I would be careful not to impose your own wishes and situation upon Cardinal. You may look back and wish you had acted differently, but what is right for you may not be right for Cardinal. She's put in the time and work to understand what she needs and wants, and as she wants to keep the house and not screw up the divorce proceedings, she cannot pack up his $hit and leave it outside. Her H is not functioning with a full set of marbles, either, so cannot be assumed to respond rationally to anything. What might feel like disrespect from where you sit might not matter a whit to C because she's not emotionally attached to him anymore. In general, in these situations it seems that the more you can remove your own emotion and ego from the situation and deal with it logically, the better off you are... and packing someone's stuff and leaving it on the porch is rarely driven exclusively by rational thought processes. In my situation, I feel the exact opposite as you-- I'm incredibly grateful to this board for helping me not respond out of emotion because I was very close to throwing my H's stuff out on the lawn, and if I had we would be in a very different place right now.
Cardi, you are amazing. Sending hugs and strength your way. What are you baking these days?
xoxo May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I'm sorry you are having to continue to deal with this. Make sure to raise the safety issue with your lawyer, for it may impact your available remedies with respect to removing him. I live in a state where it is possible to get a kick-out order for a spouse/partner even in a rental situation. Perhaps this wasn't available previously because criteria for it were not met (it may also of course be that your state doesn't have such a provision, but your lawyer should be able to tell you if it makes a difference).
BL, I would be careful not to impose your own wishes and situation upon Cardinal. You may look back and wish you had acted differently, but what is right for you may not be right for Cardinal.
Fair point. All of our perspectives are shaped by our own personal experiences and comments here can reflect those. It's up to Cardinal how she chooses to proceed. Just trying to lend support.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
DnJ, I did have a pretty good Sunday! Thank you. I did some clean up in the yard and was remembering how I used to find comfort in weeding when things were crazy.
((may)) Wow, thank you for that recap. I think I really have done the work, and I also appreciate your reminder to keep asking the questions. That's one of the (many) things you were so good at in your sitch, always examining, always asking what it was you really wanted or needed at any given time.
BL, no worries. I do wish I would have embraced the D much earlier after BD, but I have been on my own timeline and needed the time it's taken to learn things and get where I am. I mean, I fantasize about throwing his stuff out sometimes! If only that would work (and a judge would approve).
Own, I am loving reading about your life post-D. I will have to update my L and see what she says. She did recommend we send a letter demanding disclosures within a short period, since he is well past the deadline now. She can spell out what will happen if he doesn't comply, and it'll mean filing a motion and an award of attorney fees for me. This will hopefully get his incompetent L moving.
I am fretting over the timing, whether she should just send it asap since he's already angry (the usual passive aggressive door-slamming and silent treatment, it seems). Or whether she should wait until I get back from a trip. I'm afraid of what he could do with the pets while I'm gone. I think this fear is irrational, but I feel weird not being here when all this is going down, on the heels of his getting angry about house guests. Then again, I really don't want to delay this any more!
I was looking for your last thread to post it on there but it seems you haven't got one going anymore, so sorry to put it here, but I just wanted to say that I think the support you've given on here for Cardinal is just really beautiful and genuine. This will have done her a lot of good.
@Cardinal,
Originally Posted by cardinal
I am fretting over the timing, whether she should just send it asap since he's already angry (the usual passive aggressive door-slamming and silent treatment, it seems). Or whether she should wait until I get back from a trip. I'm afraid of what he could do with the pets while I'm gone. I think this fear is irrational, but I feel weird not being here when all this is going down, on the heels of his getting angry about house guests. Then again, I really don't want to delay this any more!
As D always states, the answers will reveal itself in due time. You'll know what to do, and it will be the right decision, at least for you it will.
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
Just letting you know I'm watching and thinking about you often. Don't stress too much about the timing. H is going to be a jacka$$ about it whether it happens next week, next month or next year. I know you know this. And it's not fair to have to live on egg shells this long. But the sooner you push through the hard parts of this D the sooner this will all be over. Find the rainbow in the rain. You got this cardinal. Lots of love and light your way, my dear.
((wayfarer)) Thanks so much for stopping by and for your support shared with me and so many others here. Eagle, you are always welcome to write to May on my thread, as is anyone!
Reminders from both of you: Answers will reveal themselves in due time. Don't stress too much about timing.
H texted to announce he's moving out by the end of the month and he's starting to move next week. Maybe my boundary pushed him along a little. We'll see if it happens this time. I've been in a slight stress mode making arrangements for my trip during a crazy busy time at work, and now I'm choosing, for the second time, to delay this trip so that I can be here with the pets while H (maybe) moves out. I will enjoy being away more if H is actually gone from the house anyway. L gave me the go ahead to re-sign the lease in my name, so, either way, that's a step forward. By the time L sends the letter regarding disclosures, H will be gone (or he won't, but he's getting that at the first of the month for sure!).
I've come a long way in becoming financially independent and in just plain feeling like I can handle stuff on my own, yet there's still a tiny part of me that is anxious about taking the remaining expenses on, nervous about how the moveout might go. A natural response to change and uncertainty. Of course I can take care of myself; I've been doing that for quite some time now. I suppose this is where I thank these feelings for trying to protect me and stay the course with no expectations. Greet each day as it comes. Focus on what I am thankful for. Gratitude has had a really centering affect on me lately. One of the good things that comes from difficult experiences like the ones we've all had, I think, is that we know we can survive. Or eventually, I hope, we come to see and believe that.
I'm also thinking it might be helpful to remind myself here that even if H does leave, even if/when I finally have a safe space for myself, I might not feel that space in my body right away. Or that feeling may come and go. I might find myself egg-shelling for a while, and it's okay if it takes some time to work through that.
Somehow did not expect all the emotions as H begins actually moving out, things going out the door, dividing books, etc. He’s calm again, not in a huff like the last time I saw him. Of course, he’s starting a couple days earlier than he told me. I thought since I’d waited for this day for so long, and I’d already grieved…but I guess there’s still a bit more to grieve along the way. More processing to do at each milestone. I reminded myself the loss already happened the day of BD; I lost H then and it’s not happening again. I didn’t choose this but I’ve made peace with it, etc. What was Gerda’s analogy about a broken arm? I caught myself imagining what it would be like the last time I see him here. What will that moment look like? I suppose it’ll come when it comes. And there’s still a D to finish! I’m trying to remind myself to simply stay present with these emotions and not to overthink too much. It’s been a while since I felt sadness about all this, but that’s okay. There are other emotions on the other side.
I read about your recent challenges with an obstinate, pot-smoking H and his friend and felt like I was reading a passage from The Book of Joy (by Tutu and The Dalai Lama). Your patience, compassion and understanding of yourself and those around you is truly inspiring. And your human-ness in all of it is what is the most relatable.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Somehow did not expect all the emotions as H begins actually moving out, things going out the door, dividing books, etc.
You wouldn't be human if you didn't feel some emotion right now. It's one thing to predict this day, anticipate it, perchance look forward to it, but it is still going to bring up the past. With every book taken from the shelf and added to a box, you are reminded of a past that is no longer. I feel this way every time I deep clean another room and find objects belonging to H that I pack away for him to take. All this history, all this love, consolidated into a meaningless box.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I caught myself imagining what it would be like the last time I see him here. What will that moment look like? I suppose it’ll come when it comes.
If you are anything like me, the anticipation holds more gravitas than reality. I thought the exact same thing, but now I can't even remember the day he actually moved out, or the last time I saw him in a particular room. None of it holds any weight, but at the time I thought it would crush me with its significance.
Over the past year, I have unceremoniously taken down wedding photos, pictures of H with my late Dad, pictures of us as a family and it was just that: taking down old photos and making room for the new ones. My lack of emotion has been both welcome (I've come so far!!) and concerning (is something wrong with me that I am not crying right now?) but at the end of the day points towards the resiliency of the human spirit: you will survive.
I also held all those last moments. Last hug, last time XW was in the house, last talk, time since her departure, etc. So many counters/timers. I have no such detailed accounting anymore. I now have to calculate how long it’s been since <whatever last time>. It’s funny how we let go. Well, I suppose how we hang on actually. Man that stuff had so much meaning before.
Originally Posted by Sage4
With every book taken from the shelf and added to a box, you are reminded of a past that is no longer. I feel this way every time I deep clean another room and find objects belonging to H that I pack away for him to take. All this history, all this love, consolidated into a meaningless box.
Originally Posted by Sage4
My lack of emotion has been both welcome (I've come so far!!) and concerning (is something wrong with me that I am not crying right now?) but at the end of the day points towards the resiliency of the human spirit: you will survive.
A past that is no longer. It does feel like that. For a while. Have faith, indifference does unwind.
It’s not a past that is no longer, it is a particular visioned future that is no longer. Your past exists.
As indifference rolls back, emotions return, and with us being better healed, it ushers in a bright future. Your past returns. Have no doubt about that. You lived it, you loved it, you will remember and recall it - rather fondly, as you’ve invested into yourself over this time.
And how we traversed this unwanted path comes back as well. Seeking and displaying grace, dignity, kindness, compassion, while one’s world is crashing around them, brings very few regrets. How one walks the journey matters. After all, it’s always been the journey not the destination.
The past is.
The future is new, unknown, and as yet written. Write big and bold. Make it a great!
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Now is a great time to make a vision board, envision a great future for yourself. And to reclaim the space, arrange the furniture any way you want, redecorate, change it up.
Would you consider getting a roommate to help with the rent?
Oh - and keep an eye on what he's taking, don't let him either walk off with stuff you want, or leave a bunch of his stuff behind for you to have to store.
Oh - and keep an eye on what he's taking, don't let him either walk off with stuff you want, or leave a bunch of his stuff behind for you to have to store.
what she said.
Remember, everything is a marital asset. Everything.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Oh - and keep an eye on what he's taking, don't let him either walk off with stuff you want, or leave a bunch of his stuff behind for you to have to store.
An easy way to do a household inventory is to just go around and take pictures of everything including just opening closets and drawers and taking a shot of that.
Don't be shocked at all by what is taken and what is left. Or what they may suddenly be attached to. I recall one poster here talking about how her ex took the steps to a shed if I recall correctly. I ended up with just 1 lamp in the entire house.
As bttrfly says, it's all marital assets (other than gifts or many types of inheritance).
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Just caught up and I’m so proud of you for putting your foot down. Wow, the way he speaks to you sounds so much like my H. I agree the chain lock would be a good idea, as well as much of the advice you have received from the crew.
All I can say is try to accept it will feel weird as he leaves. And try to distract yourself. Hugs to you! You got this!
El
Me 52, H 56 T10 M7, 2nd MR for both 2 Step Sons (19 and 21) BD: Fall 2020 D finalized: July 2022 XH Married AP soon after D day.
