New M, new WAW

[Ready2Change]

We talked on the phone for about an hour one night. Just mundane stuff mostly, but that was nice. Not something we had really done for a long time in the MR.

How did she "Feel" after this conversation? Most guys do not understand the importance about a woman's "Feelings" that happen during an interaction.

Do you understand her better after the conversation?

[mako]

We talked on the phone for about an hour one night. Just mundane stuff mostly, but that was nice. Not something we had really done for a long time in the MR.

How did she "Feel" after this conversation? Most guys do not understand the importance about a woman's "Feelings" that happen during an interaction.

Do you understand her better after the conversation?

This is true, that I have to be in tune with how she is feeling. I don't think I've ever been great with my intuition, I will just need to pay attention and try to do better at that.

So last Wednesday she came out of quarantining. Since then we have been getting along great. Things have been busy because the little kids have been stuck at home until tomorrow due to the positive test in the family. But we have been hanging out and having a good time together. We are working well together parenting. We have both been around the house for the most part, though I got out to take S9 kayaking the other morning. She is still easily tired, though that's improving.

She has done some things that indicate she is seeing a future together. She went and bought a bunch of seeds and plants, so the plans for the garden I mentioned above are coming true. She finally set up her home office, she had kind of just been working at a table but she moved a bunch of things and made a more permanent set up. She has a work conference in the fall and she asked me if I wanted to go with her. This may seem like nothing but she had one a year ago and she made no such offer. Another symbolic thing is I noticed her wearing her ring today. I can't recall the last time I saw that, she had it off long before BD.

I have tried to walk the fine line between not wanting to push her away, and the idea that giving her affection would be my greatest and eventually most important 180. Keep in mind we were not merely a SSM, we were an affection starved marriage. She had said that she wanted to take things slow because we had been lacking intimacy for so long, and I have tried to stick to that, but we have also hugged and cuddled more in about 5 days than we had in probably 2 years. These have largely been initiated by me, but not solely. We have also had a couple pretty minor R talks where she brought up some things that had bugged her previously that I was unaware of, mostly about areas where she thought I was too controlling, I could see her point and mostly just validated. Other than that I think we are just taking it a day at a time.

So again, I remain cautious, but for now things seem to be going well.

[SteveLW]

At this point Mako, I'd look up talk charges and touch charges. Lots of positive signs here. I think you can subtly institute talk and touch charges to slowly start to rebuild a connection. If things continue to progress well, in a couple of weeks, I would suggest considering a low-key date night.

Lots of good signs here! Keep DBing. As R2C says, always be DBing!

[LH19]

Mako I certainly do not want to rain on your parade and these are all good signs on your quest for reconciliation. I have some comments and then questions in the end.

She has done some things that indicate she is seeing a future together. She went and bought a bunch of seeds and plants, so the plans for the garden I mentioned above are coming true. She finally set up her home office, she had kind of just been working at a table but she moved a bunch of things and made a more permanent set up. She has a work conference in the fall and she asked me if I wanted to go with her. This may seem like nothing but she had one a year ago and she made no such offer. Another symbolic thing is I noticed her wearing her ring today. I can't recall the last time I saw that, she had it off long before BD.

None of this means anything. I truly believe for the time being she believes she is back in.

She had said that she wanted to take things slow because we had been lacking intimacy for so long, and I have tried to stick to that, but we have also hugged and cuddled more in about 5 days than we had in probably 2 years. These have largely been initiated by me, but not solely.

IMO This needs to be the other way around where the majority of it is initiated by her. This is all about attraction and if she feels it she will initiate.

So again, I remain cautious, but for now things seem to be going well.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

So my question is do you believe she is working to win you? Do you think you are taking her back to easy? What are your boundaries moving forward? Will she get IC? Will you do MC? Will you be open with your phones?

I ask these questions because I went through a false recon that sounds a lot like your situation in which my Exw's EA went south on her. These things do not typically turn around over night.

[mako]

At this point Mako, I'd look up talk charges and touch charges. Lots of positive signs here. I think you can subtly institute talk and touch charges to slowly start to rebuild a connection.

Never heard of these, thanks Steve! They look like a good little thing to add. Those little things add up.

IMO This needs to be the other way around where the majority of (affection) is initiated by her. This is all about attraction and if she feels it she will initiate.

In a vacuum I agree and would say the same if commenting to someone else. Due to our history I feel like this is something that she is going to want to see what I'm capable of. She was the primary initiator of anything for a long time and got fed up with it being that way, and that mostly continued even after she told me she didn't want it to be that way. So she's not going to want to jump back into the same thing where it's like that again. I think that's fair, to some extent. But I do agree that I will need some evidence of attraction to me as well to see that we are going in the right direction.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to walk again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

I definitely agree with this. I think the answer to 1 is a little complicated but yes she does. 2 I don't know...she was trying to date a little and has talked about it, my impression is that the grass was not actually greener out there, but as to better alone I have no idea. She was alone for a while before we got together so she does have some idea of what that's like, I.e. she's not one of those people that is only ever dating someone. As to 3, yes that needs to happen, I think in a healthy R both sides always need to be working to win the other. On the plus side, she is purposely spending time with me, and invited me out to lunch later in the week, which isn't typical. She knows quality time is an important LL to me. She is treating me differently than she had been for a while...it's hard to put my finger on how that is exactly, but I feel more love and kindness coming from her, the walls she had put up for a long time are maybe not all the way down but they are much improved. It just feels more like it did ~5 years ago when things were better. Could be in my head, I don't know.

So my question is do you believe she is working to win you? Do you think you are taking her back to easy? What are your boundaries moving forward? Will she get IC? Will you do MC? Will you be open with your phones?

These are hard questions, but important questions. Right now I am not sure. Working to win me is talked about above some, and I do think so at least a little bit. We have sorta discussed MC and I think that's something we should do. She had been planning to do IC for at least a month now but hasn't yet, if that continues that's a big red flag for sure. I am cognizant that I don't want to let her back too easily, we got here for a number of reasons and it wasn't just me. If I work on myself and she doesn't that's not really going to fly, I had kind of been coming to terms with acceptance of my whole sitch and I know that I was unhappy. I do think I would rather get a D than go back to where we were in 2019-20, we're both going to need to put in the effort if we're going to make this better.

I ask these questions because I went through a false recon that sounds a lot like your situation in which my Exw's EA went south on her. These things do not typically turn around over night.

I agree with you that this seems strange that it has changed overnight. Two months from BD, that isn't really enough time for the process to take its course. It seems like it usually takes a long time to get to the point where they want to walk, and a long time to come back from that. That’s why I still have a lot of caution...like you said, I think she thinks she's back now, but I'm not sure if that's real or lasting. Given the odd timing, I half wonder if having covid made her face her mortality or something and jolt her into revisiting what is important to her...at least twice during that week prior to her talk of R she said this was the worst she ever felt and if it didn’t get better she’d rather just die. If that was part of it, then the question is whether that's enough to substitute for the typically necessary time and space, or if it's a temporary band aid that will fall off. But I don't have a crystal ball so that’s pointless to wonder about I suppose.

Anyway, I appreciate you asking these difficult questions, it forces me to think. I have a lot to figure out still.

[SteveLW]

I agree with you that this seems strange that it has changed overnight. Two months from BD, that isn't really enough time for the process to take its course. It seems like it usually takes a long time to get to the point where they want to walk, and a long time to come back from that. That’s why I still have a lot of caution...like you said, I think she thinks she's back now, but I'm not sure if that's real or lasting. Given the odd timing, I half wonder if having covid made her face her mortality or something and jolt her into revisiting what is important to her...at least twice during that week prior to her talk of R she said this was the worst she ever felt and if it didn’t get better she’d rather just die. If that was part of it, then the question is whether that's enough to substitute for the typically necessary time and space, or if it's a temporary band aid that will fall off. But I don't have a crystal ball so that’s pointless to wonder about I suppose.

Anyway, I appreciate you asking these difficult questions, it forces me to think. I have a lot to figure out still.

While extremely rare, fairly quick turnarounds can and do occur. Mine has fairly quickly, certainly not over night, but in the matter of weeks she went from wanting out and saying she was leaving, to recommitting back to the marriage.

I too had the thought that COVID might have been a bit of a wake up call for your W. Things like that can have a profound effect. Not to mention she was in quarantine for 2 weeks and, I assume, reliant on you to provide food etc. Sometimes something like that can make them realize that they cannot rely on anyone else the way they can their current spouse. And finally do not discount the power of backing off, giving space, working on yourself, showing those positive changes, and being properly and lovingly detached. There are a percentage, however small, of WAS that that last part does have an impact on. Especially in the sitches where the LBSs bad or poor behavior was a major cause of the WAS becoming walkaway. Lots of times by time BD happens the WAS is too far gone by that point, but in a few rare cases a shorter turnaround time is possible.

I think the key is in making sure this is a real turnaround. Mako I think you are taking a good approach. Taking it slow right now is the right way to go. As I've said before, reaching out to much, too quickly, and too excitedly can scare her away right now. I get the "I was not affectionate in the past" thing. I really do. But that is why I suggested the talk and touch charges. Subtle and almost undetectable, they can have a big impact over the next few weeks.

Mako, you've got this! Two other suggestions: Come here before you make big decisions. SO many LBS fail to do this and then make huge mistakes they regret later. And second, keep posting. Make a commitment to post at least once a day. Even if it is to say "nothing really new today, just blah blah blah......"

[LH19]

Due to our history I feel like this is something that she is going to want to see what I'm capable of. She was the primary initiator of anything for a long time and got fed up with it being that way, and that mostly continued even after she told me she didn't want it to be that way. So she's not going to want to jump back into the same thing where it's like that again. I think that's fair, to some extent. But I do agree that I will need some evidence of attraction to me as well to see that we are going in the right direction.

I agree that this is a good 180. I think maybe 70/30 in your favor is a good mix.

It just feels more like it did ~5 years ago when things were better. Could be in my head, I don't know.

No I don't think it's in your head there is typically a honeymoon period here.

She had been planning to do IC for at least a month now but hasn't yet, if that continues that's a big red flag for sure.

If this and MC are not in the equation you will be most likely wasting your time.

I am cognizant that I don't want to let her back too easily, we got here for a number of reasons and it wasn't just me. If I work on myself and she doesn't that's not really going to fly, I had kind of been coming to terms with acceptance of my whole sitch and I know that I was unhappy. I do think I would rather get a D than go back to where we were in 2019-20, we're both going to need to put in the effort if we're going to make this better.

Agree 100%

That’s why I still have a lot of caution...like you said, I think she thinks she's back now, but I'm not sure if that's real or lasting.

If you don't get to the root cause of why she was so unhappy that she was willing to blow up your family then you will certainly get bombed again. IMO based on experience and research 40 year old women are a bomb waiting to go off.

Given the odd timing, I half wonder if having covid made her face her mortality or something and jolt her into revisiting what is important to her...at least twice during that week prior to her talk of R she said this was the worst she ever felt and if it didn’t get better she’d rather just die. If that was part of it, then the question is whether that's enough to substitute for the typically necessary time and space, or if it's a temporary band aid that will fall off. But I don't have a crystal ball so that’s pointless to wonder about I suppose.

Though pointless I think you may be onto something. Have you ever seen someone bargaining with mortality get their wish only to go back to their old selves when the wish is granted.

Anyway, I appreciate you asking these difficult questions, it forces me to think. I have a lot to figure out still.

No problem. You are an easy person to give advice to. You can tell this isn't your first rodeo.

[wayfarer]

Mako you may want to go take a look at my thread. My H went from fine to EA to PA to the A dead and over in 4 months. And was fully on board and back in the MR 4 months after that. He had some touch and go while he worked his own sh!t out. He himself admitted that lock down had been a huge factor in reevaluating me, our MR and why he blew our MR up. I imagine a condensed version of that with absolutely quarantine is possible.

I would just warn like LH has that even if she thinks she's all in today doesn't mean she'll still think she's all in tomorrow. She may waffle for a while. She may keep you at arms length until she figures it out. And by figure it out I mean that in the sense that it could go either way. It took my H longer to decided that he wanted back into the MR than it did for him to decide to sleep with someone else. You'll have to decide if you want to be in that position for as long as it take for her to figure it out. Due to Covid I didn't have much of a choice in the matter, but as weather warmed and house and apartment walk throughs were allowed again I decided he had until fall to p!ss or get off the pot. That might be something to consider while you process this.

[mako]

I think the key is in making sure this is a real turnaround. Mako I think you are taking a good approach. Taking it slow right now is the right way to go. As I've said before, reaching out to much, too quickly, and too excitedly can scare her away right now. I get the "I was not affectionate in the past" thing. I really do. But that is why I suggested the talk and touch charges. Subtle and almost undetectable, they can have a big impact over the next few weeks.

Mako, you've got this! Two other suggestions: Come here before you make big decisions. SO many LBS fail to do this and then make huge mistakes they regret later. And second, keep posting. Make a commitment to post at least once a day. Even if it is to say "nothing really new today, just blah blah blah......"

Thanks. I tried to add in some of those touch charges. A hand on the back here, a touch on the arm there…little things that might add up in time. There are no grand gestures that turn these things around, only regular consistent actions.

Last night W actually asked me for help with a work problem and I sat with her for a while and got her through it. This is something I used to do for her once in a while, but she had stopped asking for some time, even prior to BD. After BD I had decided a boundary was that I’d no longer help her with work, but she never asked. Now I am fine doing so again.

I did have a few moments where I really felt an urge to talk and try and figure out where she sees us going right now, but I recognized it and let it pass. Not necessary right now.

Today we went out to lunch, and it was good. It's nice to hang out together without kids, really that hasn't happened enough in the past several years.

If you don't get to the root cause of why she was so unhappy that she was willing to blow up your family then you will certainly get bombed again. IMO based on experience and research 40 year old women are a bomb waiting to go off.

Agree 100% I mean she's mostly told me, but we have to see if that's all there is to it or if there's more there. And as we've said she's going to have to work these things out for herself too.

Mako you may want to go take a look at my thread. My H went from fine to EA to PA to the A dead and over in 4 months. And was fully on board and back in the MR 4 months after that. He had some touch and go while he worked his own sh!t out. He himself admitted that lock down had been a huge factor in reevaluating me, our MR and why he blew our MR up. I imagine a condensed version of that with absolutely quarantine is possible.

I would just warn like LH has that even if she thinks she's all in today doesn't mean she'll still think she's all in tomorrow. She may waffle for a while. She may keep you at arms length until she figures it out. And by figure it out I mean that in the sense that it could go either way. It took my H longer to decided that he wanted back into the MR than it did for him to decide to sleep with someone else. You'll have to decide if you want to be in that position for as long as it take for her to figure it out. Due to Covid I didn't have much of a choice in the matter, but as weather warmed and house and apartment walk throughs were allowed again I decided he had until fall to p!ss or get off the pot. That might be something to consider while you process this.

Wayfarer, thanks for stopping by on my thread. It’s unfortunately hard to find examples of folks who are piecing as that board is so dead, so I will be sure to check out your threads at some point. I've gotten through almost two of them and you seemed to be on a roller coaster for a while (aren't we all I suppose?), and I'm glad that it seems like you've made it to a better place now. For now it's still pretty new so I am just rolling with it, but you're right that at some point if she's still waffling, or maybe if she avoids IC or MC, I'll need to think about how long I'm willing to go. I need to stay realistic that things are still very much in flux and I can't get complacent.

[SteveLW]

I think the key is in making sure this is a real turnaround. Mako I think you are taking a good approach. Taking it slow right now is the right way to go. As I've said before, reaching out to much, too quickly, and too excitedly can scare her away right now. I get the "I was not affectionate in the past" thing. I really do. But that is why I suggested the talk and touch charges. Subtle and almost undetectable, they can have a big impact over the next few weeks.

Mako, you've got this! Two other suggestions: Come here before you make big decisions. SO many LBS fail to do this and then make huge mistakes they regret later. And second, keep posting. Make a commitment to post at least once a day. Even if it is to say "nothing really new today, just blah blah blah......"

Thanks. I tried to add in some of those touch charges. A hand on the back here, a touch on the arm there…little things that might add up in time. There are no grand gestures that turn these things around, only regular consistent actions.

Last night W actually asked me for help with a work problem and I sat with her for a while and got her through it. This is something I used to do for her once in a while, but she had stopped asking for some time, even prior to BD. After BD I had decided a boundary was that I’d no longer help her with work, but she never asked. Now I am fine doing so again.

I did have a few moments where I really felt an urge to talk and try and figure out where she sees us going right now, but I recognized it and let it pass. Not necessary right now.

Today we went out to lunch, and it was good. It's nice to hang out together without kids, really that hasn't happened enough in the past several years.

I like it! Remember to take it slow. And do not leave out the talk charges! I did both in my sitch as my W started to slowly come around. But I can look back and honestly say that the talk charges were more impactful than the touch charges!

Pre-covid (and work from home) she rarely heard from me from the time I left for work to the time I arrived home from work. And when she did it was always logistical in nature. "Do I need to pick up D from my parents?" "Do you need me to pick up anything for dinner?" "I am stopping at the store, need anything?" Etc.

So when I started calling her and quickly sharing a small story about something at work, or something I had heard, and then ending the call (or VM, this even works over VM), at first she was flabbergasted. Shocked that I was calling about something personal, or funny, and not logistical. Dare I say cold, even? And after a couple of weeks of doing that, something interesting started occurring. She started to reciprocate. She'd call just to tell me something she heard. Or she'd text me a news article, something she hadn't done in months. I do think that you need to be connecting on a deeper level than just through touch.