To add to what sandi is saying, having NGS really isn't all that nice! In fact, most "Nice Guys" are really jerks underneath.
I read No More Mr. Nice Guy. And while I wasn't full blown NGS, I certainly suffered from it to an extent. Two things that were eye-opening to me:
- Nice guys often proclaim to themselves that they are nice guys
This usually comes in the form of "deserving" something in return. For instance, a big one in NGS is thinking he deserves sex for being nice.
- Passive-aggressive tendencies
Nice guys like to exhibit a nice exterior but underneath are really being passive-aggressive in the things they say or do. Passive-aggressiveness is a big NGS red-flag.
The last one is the covert contrat. "If I am nice then X will give me Y." Again often in the context of sex. But notice, Nice Guys do not do something because it is nice. They are nice because they think then they will get what they want.
Anyway, the book is a great read. Many here have read it multiple times. It can't hurt to give it a look.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I know you've gotten many people's thoughts about telling her "You're welcome," but my initial reaction is one I don't think anyone has posted yet (although I might have missed it).
A person says, "You're welcome" in response to someone thanking them for a favor they have done for them. If someone gives them a compliment, they usually respond, "Thank you."
Are you showing up for your kids as a favor to your wife?
Or are you showing up for your kids because you have decided that's the kind of dad you want to be? .
That is an interesting way of looking at it and I hadn't thought of it that way before. As to your question, being the best dad I can be is something I've always strived to be and has nothing to do with her.
I know, b/c that comes from the root of NGS. You have read the book on NGS, right?
You need to understand why you feel you must always be nice, even to those who have cheated, lied, betrayed, and whatever. Your answer that it's just you is the typical answer I get from those nice guys when I point specifics out to them. I believe them 100%, b/c it is ingrained that much.
I have read it and it was a 2x4 for sure. I'm also working on my codependency as well which is another reason I struggle to just move on after all the betrayals and lies.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I may be wrong, but I think whenever your WW is being civil in conversation, or when she's even being what you would think as "pleasant", you automatically respond with too many words, and can get somewhat gushy. It's as if you temporarily forget what she is, or else your NGS tells you she's being nice at the moment so you must respond accordingly. However, in most cases I've read, it is the WW keeping the LBH emotionally engaged so he won't treat her like she really deserves. And, as I said last time, it's just how the WW works in manipulating him. It's like she keeps him ready to be used whenever she decides to play that card.
I think you nailed it. She's good at showing up enough to give me hope to keep me hanging around. I don't know if she does it consciously or not, or if it matters, but it is obvious she has me on the end of her string. I think actually knowing that makes a difference in seeing things differently. I can see now when she's pulling on that string and I can see the game playing out. I'm still working on playing it better though, because she's still winning.
I read No More Mr. Nice Guy. And while I wasn't full blown NGS, I certainly suffered from it to an extent. Two things that were eye-opening to me:
- Nice guys often proclaim to themselves that they are nice guys
This usually comes in the form of "deserving" something in return. For instance, a big one in NGS is thinking he deserves sex for being nice.
- Passive-aggressive tendencies
Nice guys like to exhibit a nice exterior but underneath are really being passive-aggressive in the things they say or do. Passive-aggressiveness is a big NGS red-flag.
The last one is the covert contrat. "If I am nice then X will give me Y." Again often in the context of sex. But notice, Nice Guys do not do something because it is nice. They are nice because they think then they will get what they want.
Anyway, the book is a great read. Many here have read it multiple times. It can't hurt to give it a look.
I am/was a full blown nice guy. Reading that book was like reading someone writing about me and I can look back and see how my being a nice guy lead me/us to where we are at now. I blamed myself for it as well, thinking it was all my fault. I'm now able to realize it wasn't just me and that she played just a big a part - whether she can admit it or not. Now it is finding ways to break those old habits when I see them pop up. That's a struggle.
Sending her pictures of playing with the kids to try and appeal to the mom/wife that used to be there Asking how she's doing. Get drunk and send lengthy emails explaining what I'm feeling, how I miss her, etc. Get drunk and send guilt trip/angry messages Snooping Posting stupid, thinly veiled, passive aggressive things on Facebook
You just posted this so it looks like you have some more work to do.
Hi SaltyDog, i can relate to your last post as i can also see how certain NGS traits led me to the breakdown of our R. I also blamed myself for everything for a long time but like you im starting to see she had a big part in it as well. Know what you mean about the struggle, even if i know she is just temp checking or she is keeping me on a string i cant force myself to be blunt with her or ignore messages. I start to care and NGS comes out and as soon as it does her reactions change. Your response about the codependency also hits home, been trying to figure out why i want someone back that has hurt me so much and after all she has done and i dont have a good answer other than my self respect is so low that i feel thats all i deserve or its fear that i wont find someone else.
Reading your thread about the NGS got me thinking: is it correlation or causation that WW and NGS tend to end up together. It seems like more than a coincidence that most guys here with NGS end up having WW, and im wondering if these 2 personality types tend to be drawn/attracted to each other or if NGS traits start bringing out rebellion, resentment and other WW traits in the women (and vice versa whether WW types make NGS traits more amplified). I used to be quite confident and in charge in my relationship until she cheated and then my NGS went into overdrive, tried to do everything for her but got passive aggresive and built resentment expecting it to be reciprocated.
Me 32, W 24 T 6, M 3 No kids BD: Aug 2020 OM: Jan 2021 Wife to file soon
NGS traits start bringing out rebellion, resentment and other WW traits in the women (and vice versa whether WW types make NGS traits more amplified).
Bingo!
Originally Posted by Ace_32
I used to be quite confident and in charge in my relationship until she cheated and then my NGS went into overdrive, tried to do everything for her but got passive aggresive and built resentment expecting it to be reciprocated.
Sending her pictures of playing with the kids to try and appeal to the mom/wife that used to be there Asking how she's doing. Get drunk and send lengthy emails explaining what I'm feeling, how I miss her, etc. Get drunk and send guilt trip/angry messages Snooping Posting stupid, thinly veiled, passive aggressive things on Facebook
You just posted this so it looks like you have some more work to do.
I absolutely do, I haven't said otherwise. I can see all the dumb things I've done and do my best to recognize when the desire to do the next dumb thing comes up. Doesn't mean I won't do that dumb thing, but it is easier to avoid doing it when you are aware of it.
Hi SaltyDog, i can relate to your last post as i can also see how certain NGS traits led me to the breakdown of our R. I also blamed myself for everything for a long time but like you im starting to see she had a big part in it as well. Know what you mean about the struggle, even if i know she is just temp checking or she is keeping me on a string i cant force myself to be blunt with her or ignore messages. I start to care and NGS comes out and as soon as it does her reactions change. Your response about the codependency also hits home, been trying to figure out why i want someone back that has hurt me so much and after all she has done and i dont have a good answer other than my self respect is so low that i feel thats all i deserve or its fear that i wont find someone else.
This all hits very close to home and I don't have a good answer either. My self-respect right now is probably higher than it has been in years. I'm healthier, stronger, happier, and feel like I am getting my purpose back, and that's all outside of her. I don't necessarily fear finding someone else either, part of me craves it and looks forward to a whole new life. And yet, I'm still here.
Originally Posted by Ace_32
Reading your thread about the NGS got me thinking: is it correlation or causation that WW and NGS tend to end up together. It seems like more than a coincidence that most guys here with NGS end up having WW, and im wondering if these 2 personality types tend to be drawn/attracted to each other or if NGS traits start bringing out rebellion, resentment and other WW traits in the women (and vice versa whether WW types make NGS traits more amplified). I used to be quite confident and in charge in my relationship until she cheated and then my NGS went into overdrive, tried to do everything for her but got passive aggresive and built resentment expecting it to be reciprocated.
For me, I tend to pick broken women, fix them, and watch them leave once they get their sh!t together.
My self-respect right now is probably higher than it has been in years.
That's fantastic, and I bet feels great.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I don't necessarily fear finding someone else either, part of me craves it and looks forward to a whole new life. And yet, I'm still here.
Hi Salty, "craving" someone else can be an attempt to recreate a co-dependency, especially if you begin dating while still open to reconciliation, or as soon as you decide not to reconcile. When the Co-Dependency Demon is defeated, one doesn't need another so badly or to complete them. Since I closed the door on reconciliation I've been solo and not dating for 2 months, and I intended to do so for a mother 2 months, to get my baggage in order. 4 months for a 4 year relationship to be ready for what's next.
