Thanks, it's a start. Some of that - like asking how she's doing - was due to her specifically saying she wanted me to "show up" and be vulnerable. I did what she asked, I showed up, and it basically called her bluff. So now I have more confidence in what I am doing and no worry of "but if I do that she'll do ______" because I know it is BS. I've finally accepted that she's going to do whatever she's going to do no matter what, and none of it is my fault.
I did what she asked, I showed up, and it basically called her bluff.
Many of us try what our ex asks us to do, to salvage a broken relationship. It's rarely as effective as DB'ing, but "trying it their way" (when it's not outlandish) can leave you with a calm that you tried everything. I at least don't entirely regret that I tried for a time exactly what she said would lead to a happy us.
I did what she asked, I showed up, and it basically called her bluff.
Many of us try what our ex asks us to do, to salvage a broken relationship. It's rarely as effective as DB'ing, but "trying it their way" (when it's not outlandish) can leave you with a calm that you tried everything. I at least don't entirely regret that I tried for a time exactly what she said would lead to a happy us.
Yup! It is a box we checked, and that at least gives me some solace. And I could see how what I was doing did put some chinks in her armor and got her second guessing, but in the end she was just buying time. She knows what she would need to do if she were to want to work on "us" but in the meantime I'm done being the only one showing up.
So SD when your stbxw acknowledges your changes and still chooses to sleep with other dudes it’s an attraction thing. It 100 percent isn’t going to come back while you are acting like a scared little boy. 100 percent she can see it and feel it. Once she feels comfortable with OM you will be served. You will tell yourself you did it for your kids or you want to be able to say you tried everything but the truth is you are being passive because of fear. As Kevin Bacon said in Few Good Men” those are the facts of the case and the facts are irrefutable”.
I agree with LH19 ^^^^^.
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I agree on the attraction thing and while she is seeing changes she likes and wants, it isn't enough to make her want to give up the thrill of the OM or dating or whatever. She's like an addict. She knows he won't leave his wife, she knows he is using her, she knows it isn't really going anywhere, but it's forbidden fruit and exciting and she isn't a "wife" or "mom" or any of that other crap.
Yes, she's like a drug addict.
Here's how I see it, FWIW. If it's a case where the W is fed up with a loser husband and hands him a list of all her complaints, maybe he can get his act in gear and save the MR. I tend to think this happens more in line of a walk away wife who usually has more legit reasons for wanting to leave her H. Usually, it's due to him being a lousy H. It may be abuse, neglect, criminal, addiction issues, having an affair, or whatever is normally defined as legit reasons. In other words, he usually did something that earned her disrespect and she left. On the other hand, if it's a case where the W has developed a wayward mindset and feels no attraction/desire for him that's a different animal, b/c it's her fault, so to speak. She feels no attraction b/c she no longer respects him. However, her loss of respect is due to him basically being the weaker spouse. I mean, she wears the pants in the relationship. Her negative attitude breeds resentment, selfishness, sense of entitlement, disrespect, rebellion, cold heart, etc. Her reasons for wanting out of the M usually has a secret agenda attached, like pursuing an affair, or engaging in a GGW lifestyle. I'm not saying her H is totally innocent in the downfall of the MR, but it's too long to go into everything here. If you don't understand, please feel free to ask what I mean.
So, what do you think the H is going to accomplish by using the WW's list of complaints for his changes? NOTHING!!! No respect = no attraction.
She's not going to write down how she wants a man who doesn't take her cr@p. One who will stand up to her when she gets out of line. One who will make actual decisions on where to eat out or go on vacation, or how to spend their money, discipline the kids......instead of always giving the shot to her to make. A man who takes charge in the bedroom.......instead of silently and resentfully waiting for her to decide when they can have sex again (and you know what I mean). She wants him to stop his passivity and act as if he has the spine God meant for men to have. She wants a man who can lead, protect, and provide........and most of all, she wants a man who is stronger than she is and who is not afraid of her! Too many women today are trying to make their H into another female, and that doesn't work well in a heterosexual relationship. I could go on & on, but this is enough to get the picture of the kind of things she won't put on the list, but she'll put something that's more like symptoms related to these root causes.
You see, it's at the core of every woman to naturally be attracted to these manly traits that come from within the male. That's how she was designed. A lot of women don't like it, but biology is what it is. She won't tell you what she really needs to feel attraction. She's going to talk about the surface stuff. She's going to say something about wanting an understanding H, who shows he cares about her feelings and interested in her daily activities, etc. She wants him to be tender and gentle. While that is true enough, there are times she needs his toughness and strength of character and a man who stands on his integrity & principles to shine through. Now, understand that I'm not suggesting any form of violence whatsoever. So, stay balance when you read this. I'm not talking about an overbearing bully who walks around intimidating his W. I'm a Christian, but I can't stand some guy who thinks he can quote a scripture completely out of context to guilt and brow beat his W into submission (that's another subject for another time). Now, back to her complaints. She'll say she needs more time together, maybe even more intimacy, dates or romance. But guess what? None of these changes bring about attraction if the H has those unattractive and unmanly traits that we often see in those with NGS. She's going to lose respect, thus killing the attraction, and he can jump through hoops of fire trying to satisfy her list of complaints, and it will not cause her attraction to return. In fact, some WW's get very frustrated that they don't feel attraction after seeing the H working to change her complaints. It's b/c neither of them are working on the root problem.
Therefore, whatever the LBH does......should be based on his self respect, first of all. He needs to evaluate whether or not his actions will gleam respect from his W. I'm not talking about whether or not it will please her. Will it cause her to respect him as a man? I like to think that most men start their MR wanting to make the W happy, b/c after all, he's in love, right? The problem is when they think that handing over their own b@lls will accomplish a happy MR. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've heard guys question why girls fall for the bad boy types. It's not that she actually wants someone who is truly a bad person, but she's attracted to how he doesn't take cr@p from others, especially her, and she sees the manliness in how he conducts himself with her and others, how he takes charge in situations, etc.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Here's how I see it, FWIW. If it's a case where the W is fed up with a loser husband and hands him a list of all her complaints, maybe he can get his act in gear and save the MR. I tend to think this happens more in line of a walk away wife who usually has more legit reasons for wanting to leave her H. Usually, it's due to him being a lousy H. It may be abuse, neglect, criminal, addiction issues, having an affair, or whatever is normally defined as legit reasons. In other words, he usually did something that earned her disrespect and she left. On the other hand, if it's a case where the W has developed a wayward mindset and feels no attraction/desire for him that's a different animal, b/c it's her fault, so to speak. She feels no attraction b/c she no longer respects him. However, her loss of respect is due to him basically being the weaker spouse. I mean, she wears the pants in the relationship. Her negative attitude breeds resentment, selfishness, sense of entitlement, disrespect, rebellion, cold heart, etc. Her reasons for wanting out of the M usually has a secret agenda attached, like pursuing an affair, or engaging in a GGW lifestyle. I'm not saying her H is totally innocent in the downfall of the MR, but it's too long to go into everything here.
In my case I would say the latter. I was the weaker spouse, I was the pleaser, I was the employee. Of course she always loved to say "when I'm with my friends and they complain about their husbands, I always say my only complaint is I don't have one!" Bullsh!t. I was fine letting her wear the pants or make the decisions because in most cases, I didn't care or want to. Now I see what a huge mistake that is.
Originally Posted by sandi2
So, what do you think the H is going to accomplish by using the WW's list of complaints for his changes? NOTHING!!! No respect = no attraction.
This is where I struggle between doing what she explicitly asks for vs. DBing. In my case it was a list of complaints but she also stated "If we are going to work I need to see you can show up and be vulnerable and not abandon me."
Originally Posted by sandi2
She's not going to write down how she wants a man who doesn't take her cr@p. One who will stand up to her when she gets out of line. One who will make actual decisions on where to eat out or go on vacation, or how to spend their money, discipline the kids......instead of always giving the shot to her to make. A man who takes charge in the bedroom.......instead of silently and resentfully waiting for her to decide when they can have sex again (and you know what I mean). She wants him to stop his passivity and act as if he has the spine God meant for men to have. She wants a man who can lead, protect, and provide........and most of all, she wants a man who is stronger than she is and who is not afraid of her! Too many women today are trying to make their H into another female, and that doesn't work well in a heterosexual relationship. I could go on & on, but this is enough to get the picture of the kind of things she won't put on the list, but she'll put something that's more like symptoms related to these root causes.
I've been digging into this as well - the whole masculine/feminine dynamic and realizing how we were out of balance. I was definitely a nice guy but she also didn't like it when I stepped out of that role. I should've pushed the issue, but didn't. I know now not to listen to the words because she's likely not being truthful, whether she knows it or not. We were stuck in a cycle of her wanting me to step up and be closer and at the same time treating me in a way where the last thing I wanted to do was step up and be closer to her. I used to tell her how she would give me the silent treatment or cold shoulder and then get mad and say "WHY AREN'T YOU SUPPORTING ME?!?!?!" or something along those lines and I'd say "because you're pushing me away!" I get it now that she wanted me to ignore it all and just step up and "be a man." But she still takes no responsibility for her actions and doesn't see how she also contributed to our situation.
Originally Posted by sandi2
She'll say she needs more time together, maybe even more intimacy, dates or romance. But guess what? None of these changes bring about attraction if the H has those unattractive and unmanly traits that we often see in those with NGS. She's going to lose respect, thus killing the attraction, and he can jump through hoops of fire trying to satisfy her list of complaints, and it will not cause her attraction to return. In fact, some WW's get very frustrated that they don't feel attraction after seeing the H working to change her complaints.
Looking at the last month or two I have seen that attraction coming back from her. And not just because of rose colored glasses, she admitted as much in our last conversations. Which makes this latest betrayal all that much harder to take and more of a last straw for me.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Therefore, whatever the LBH does......should be based on his self respect, first of all. He needs to evaluate whether or not his actions will gleam respect from his W. I'm not talking about whether or not it will please her. Will it cause her to respect him as a man?
I don't care anymore (whether it will cause her to respect me). It is all about me at this point and doing what I want. And not in an a-hole kinda way, in a healthy way that is going to get my self-respect back. My dignity. For the first time in a long time I'm putting myself 1st.
I've been digging into this as well - the whole masculine/feminine dynamic and realizing how we were out of balance. I was definitely a nice guy but she also didn't like it when I stepped out of that role. I should've pushed the issue, but didn't. I know now not to listen to the words because she's likely not being truthful, whether she knows it or not. We were stuck in a cycle of her wanting me to step up and be closer and at the same time treating me in a way where the last thing I wanted to do was step up and be closer to her. I used to tell her how she would give me the silent treatment or cold shoulder and then get mad and say "WHY AREN'T YOU SUPPORTING ME?!?!?!" or something along those lines and I'd say "because you're pushing me away!" I get it now that she wanted me to ignore it all and just step up and "be a man." But she still takes no responsibility for her actions and doesn't see how she also contributed to our situation.
Hi Salty,
There are different opinions about what the masculine side of a relationship looks like in the modern world. You don't always have to lead. However, if your wife is saying "when I'm with my friends and they complain about their husbands, I always say my only complaint is I don't have one!" you've probably gone off the deep end on passivity. Living to please someone, lacking independent agency, is convenient but unattractive.
I met a woman who realized she'd learned from her mom to rule the household, and was trying to let that go, to have a better post-retirement relationship with her husband. These behaviors can be generational, picked up from years of watching her parents of your parents, picked up from your kids seeing you two.
There are different opinions about what the masculine side of a relationship looks like in the modern world. You don't always have to lead. However, if your wife is saying "when I'm with my friends and they complain about their husbands, I always say my only complaint is I don't have one!" you've probably gone off the deep end on passivity. Living to please someone, lacking independent agency, is convenient but unattractive.
Off the deep end is a good way to put it. And I'd also throw in a healthy dose of depression on top of that passivity which is twice as unattractive. I can see it all now, hindsight and all that, and at least now I can sense my depression, realize what it is, and get out in front of it. Today though, I am feeling great. Almost worryingly great because I have not felt this good in a while and I don't really know why. But gonna go with it! Sun is out, warmest day of the year so far, and it is the weekend!
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I met a woman who realized she'd learned from her mom to rule the household, and was trying to let that go, to have a better post-retirement relationship with her husband. These behaviors can be generational, picked up from years of watching her parents of your parents, picked up from your kids seeing you two.
Way back before we got married, the one red flag/worry I had was her mom. People always say women turn into their mothers and her mom is a batsh!t crazy, neurotic, overbearing, guilt-trip machine! Guess I should've listened.
She's on her way home now. We had a short fluff but amicable conversation yesterday and her phone died. At the airport she sent a text saying she's at the gate and will let me know what her ETA is when she lands so I can leave before she gets home. Here's a recap:
Me: I am not leaving, I am staying here. Her: Like ever? Or just today? Me: Ever. I won't be going back, nothing left for me there. Her: What is the plan when for the weeks when I'm at home? Me: I don't know. Her: I'm not moving into the studio. Me: Ok.
She then starts sending me a bunch of messages about her trip and where she is at. She met with OM, but only to provide him "support" as he is having marital, work, family, and financial issues. (Poor f'in baby, I'm really broken up for him.) She decided she's pushing herself so hard to "find something" that she is exhausted and is pulling back. Taking down dating profiles and trying to figure out what she is looking for. She then says she's not doing this to give me hope, or because of my "threats," but just to let me know where she is at and she doesn't feel she owes me any further explanations. I tell her "Thank you for letting me know."
She then asks if there is anything I want to tell her other than I won't be leaving the house. I say "Not really. You need to do what is best for you and so do I. Whatever happens, happens."
