You have some very wise advice regarding the business of divorce.
Originally Posted by Gerda
What your H thinks does not matter and is IRRELEVANT. Why even let what he might think into your mind? It will only confuse you, just as it did after BD. Your only concern is what is true, not what he thinks is true.
Facts matter. What actually happened, documented proof, matters. Divorce is the dissolving a business deal, and in this case it actually is a business. (Emotions aside for now)
What is factual is a concern, however it is not your only concern. What H thinks is true, is applicable. Not in the legal sense, nor in anyway you need to bow to it.
I lead people at work. A large part of that is mentoring and coaching. One needs to understand what another is thinking or feeling before they can influence a positive change within that person. The idea of their truth becomes especially clear and important when investigating an incident, accident, and such.
I work in an extremely hazard environment. Our daily routine work is managing and working with lethal energies - and that is not an exaggeration. A misstep in procedure, a misjudgement of distance to energized lines, can have dire consequences. Of course we have many safety protocols in place. It takes more than just one thing to go wrong. Still, each items is like the holes in Swiss cheese slices, when enough of them line up, bad things happen.
It is paramount that I, or whomever is investigating, understands what the person was thinking. What they thought was true. No one is going into work to have an accident. Investigations are not blame oriented, not to punish, they are to find the learnings, so everyone can benefit from the wisdom.
With H, what he thinks is true, matters. Just as much as what is actually factual and provable. Do not get wrapped up in his “truth”, nor his projections or fantasy. Detached understanding and seeing of his viewpoint allows you to understand him and negotiate better.
In my work life, that understanding of others leads to me being able to reach them and speak directly to what they thought and believed was safe or proper. That allows them and me to influence a change within them and their work practices. Follow up and positive reinforcement is needed for many weeks after to foster the change and the breaking of the errant habit. As you can see empathy and compassion would be requisites for anyone to be successful in influencing. Of course, I do have willing participants.
Understanding H’s thoughts and feelings, what he thinks is true, or wants to be true, is invaluable to you. That is gold for negotiating, or affecting a reasonable resolution to a confrontation.
I am sorry for my late response. Somehow I missed your post from two weeks ago. Anyhow, just throwing in my two cents.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Create a new thread so I can post on it before you take a lent break! I have been meaning to get on here and update and will do so later this evening. But I want to share some thoughts and love before you disappear for a while.
xx S
Was gonna wait til after Lent but I will do it tonight if that is what you are offering! : )
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I have been keeping up with all of your stories but haven't felt comfortable posting in a while. I am a little concerned about privacy and H finding me here, which isn't what I want or need at the moment. But I have decided I really have nothing to hide, or to be ashamed of, so I can't let fear dictate the communities or networks I engage in. This space has been so hugely supportive of me and I am so grateful for all of you.
Our initial D settlement talks were exhausting. To the bone. I would end each session with barely any energy left whatsoever, but would fake it for the children. We both needed a break and to think things over, so we pressed pause for a few weeks. We did a couple of sweeps across the big issues and I think that we are more or less in agreement with the big things. The details/minutiae might be a little more challenging, but we will try and if we can't come to a good agreement then we will bring in outside support. So really nothing to lose except for the emotional energy, which will be expended no matter what.
I am doing great these days. In fact, my relationship status notwithstanding, I would say I am the happiest I have been in a long time. A huge part of that was H taking more equitable time with the children. I have never had 50/50, or even 90/10 parenting support in my entire motherhood and it is AMAZING. So much so that I wonder where we would be right now if I had better boundaries from the beginning about more equitable household/parenting support. I am able to be a 110% mother when I have the children, but I also have time for self-care, professional development and mental health support. I am more 'me' then I have been in years and years.
I am also feeling very detached from H. Verging on indifference, thought I am not there yet. His actions still rile me from time to time. This detachment has given me the space to see so, so clearly that this whole situation is not about me. It's about him, his FOO issues and his insecurities. I was pouring love, attention and spousal duty into a bottomless cup and that, combined with my nearly sole responsibility for the children, household and emotional labor was exhausting. In some ways he is right that maybe I wasn't happy during the last couple of years of our marriage. I was weary to the bone, serving as much as I could to him, while also subconsciously looking over my shoulder knowing deep down that his insecurities and need for outside validation could result in EA's or PA's.
No matter what I did or didn't do in our M, I know this much to be true: there are ethical ways to end a marriage and he decidedly chose to not take an ethical path. Instead I was literally and physically broken (cue Gerda's amazing post on the heart being ripped out of my chest, being forced to watch and then being forced to understand why H must do such things to me). No one should have to endure such torture and cruelty. And who knows? Maybe instead of me spending a year in fight or flight mode, we spent this past year in intensive therapy, and came to the amicable conclusion that I can't give him what he needs and he can't give me what I need?
At the moment, I find H mercurial and passive-agressive. He is really challenging to be around. I look at myself and see someone who is growing (trying to!) and happy. In his absence, I have been blossoming into the 'real' me. And in my absence, he too is turning into the 'real' him. But the real him presents to me (maybe not to others?) as insecure, unbalanced, and passive-aggressive. Was I compensating for these behaviors in our marriage? I saw some of this in the early days of our R, but was the more emotionally equipped of the two of us and would 'talk' it through. He credited me time and again for being the first person in his life to actually name his emotions, not let him walk away in anger, and work through hard things. Not my job anymore.
A friend who is going through a similar situation, only she has been struggling in her marriage for 30 years told me 'take it as a blessing that he is unwilling to drag the R out over another decade or two. You have been given a gift and you just don't know it yet, take it from me.' No one else in my life but her could have said that to me, and I didn't buy it at the time. But now I am slowly understanding.
Finally, some advice needed: how do I deal with the passive-agressive behavior? In our M, I would gently bring it to his attention and we would work to get to the bottom of his feelings. But that is clearly not my role at the moment. And going NC is not practical for children and D settlement talk reasons. Any suggestions?
I have never had 50/50, or even 90/10 parenting support in my entire motherhood and it is AMAZING. So much so that I wonder where we would be right now if I had better boundaries from the beginning about more equitable household/parenting support. I am able to be a 110% mother when I have the children, but I also have time for self-care, professional development and mental health support. I am more 'me' then I have been in years and years.
I love this! Even 75% custody was AMAZING in my own divorce after being used to being a 90% dad. You are more you than you've ever been. You're finding time for self-care. This is all fantastic.
Originally Posted by Sage
how do I deal with the passive-agressive behavior?
Sage, fortunately, or unfortunately, I don't have much experience with passive-aggressive ex's. Ellen Hendricksen has an article on dealing with such people. She suggests, if helping them get their feelings out isn't workable, to take a two-pronged approach of VALIDATE + HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE. E.g., if you ask them to get the laundry out and they do so and drop it on the dinner table ("You didn't tell me where to put them or to fold them."), you VALIDATE ("You're right.") then HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE ("Please fold them then put them on the bed upstairs.") Her use of "Validate" is a bit different than the DB meaning, since you're acknowledging their perspective.
Maybe others here have personal experiences to share. If you want tips for crazy ex's, I'm your guy!
For passive aggressive behavior, I would do both: 1. Call it out 2. Do not engage depending on the situation.
I’m currently doing NC with my exH (only communicating when we’re scheduling visits), and I’ve found it to be the key of not getting dragged into his mental mess. So I’m curious- how much communication about the kids is really necessary between you two? If passive aggressive behavior is in person, I would call it out - “don’t be an ahole” would do. If it’s thru text/email, I ignore.
Also are you not going thru settlement talks with a L? Letting a L take over all D talk for me was the best decision ever.
Good for you to keep posting. There can be some privacy issues. However, the real overcoming is one’s fear. That irrational feeling of shame, wanting to hide, and so on. Nice to see you pushing through that. And yeah, you’ve got nothing to be ashamed of; letting fear dictate your behaviours and beliefs doesn’t serve you. Good job for altering that.
While we are looking at beliefs.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I am doing great these days. In fact, my relationship status notwithstanding, I would say I am the happiest I have been in a long time.
I am going to suggest a revision. An alteration / discarding to something which doesn’t serve you.
Quote
I am doing great these days. In fact, my relationship status notwithstanding, I would say I am the happiest I have been in a long time.
Your happiness is not contingent upon your relationship status. You can be sad about your relationship or anything really, and still be a happy joy filled person. No need to muddy the waters of your happiness.
Originally Posted by Sage4
there are ethical ways to end a marriage
Ain’t that the truth!
These trouble people choose, or are driven to, their narrow depression filled self destructive view point and go off the rails, usually in a staggeringly unethical display.
It is great to see you finding understanding of the gift you have been given. My XW’s gift to me was similarly received initially.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Finally, some advice needed: how do I deal with the passive-agressive behavior? In our M, I would gently bring it to his attention and we would work to get to the bottom of his feelings. But that is clearly not my role at the moment. And going NC is not practical for children and D settlement talk reasons. Any suggestions?
I like that you are asking about passive aggressive behaviour not a passive aggressive person. You’ve already done a couple of steps. First, is recognizing the behaviour. Second, separating the behaviour from the person.
During your M you would work to get to the bottom of his feelings. Very admirable. And quite in line with your role as wife, friend, confidant.
Passive aggressive behaviour stems from a person’s unwillingness or inability to face or recognize their feelings and stirred up emotions. Or even the absence thereof.
We cannot fix them. You current being fired from wife role hasn’t really changed that. It has changed how you interface with him and perhaps walk him through stuff.
Acknowledge his feelings. Validate them, for they are true. Do not argue against the person’s feelings, they feel what they do. This is done in a nonjudgemental way. Be factual, open, and honest. Use open ended statements that promote further discussion (if you want or when it is appropriate). Imagine a child angry at been told to clean their room. They are procrastinating, dragging themselves around, stating they’re “fine”, and so on.
You seem upset having to clean your room.
Notice no question or judging or attempt to modify their outlook or seeing if you are to blame like this example - Are you upset with me for telling you clean you room? You know if you put you stuff away it wouldn’t get in the disastrous state and we wouldn’t need to go down this road every few weeks.
Lol.
Just acknowledge their apparent feelings (you don’t actually know what they are feeling), their display of emotions or behaviour. It’s not them, it’s their behaviour, their reaction to their emotions.
This does a few things. It validates and bring accountability and clarity of the situation. Many times a passive aggressive behaviour is rooted from not understanding their feelings, not being able to put it into words. That is not from being too stupid or anything like that, it is from being emotional highjacked. It is the irrational mind taking over, and one cannot rationalize their pressing irrational emotions in that state. Many times people need it to be acknowledged and pointed out.
After that, time and space. The person needs both of those, to consider their emotions and their responses to their emotions. They need to calm, or step up, or walk back whatever trouble they’ve stirred up, or whatever other appropriate approach is required. Of course, a person in crisis is a very troubled individual.
That is where boundaries come in. After clearly and non-judgmentally acknowledging their behaviour and apparent emotions, if they persist in furthering things, continuing to be aggressive, it usually becomes disrespectful. Place boundaries on disrespectful behaviour - not on the person. (Remember step 2. Separating person and behaviour).
Boundaries are for you. They do not alter the aggressor. They do influence, it is up to them what they will do will the feedback, the acknowledgement, and the eventual boundaries which all depends upon how far they do push their passive aggressiveness.
Remember, you only control you.
It does help to realize that people are doing what they can with the tools they have. A passive aggressive response is likely and quite common in our not taught emotions or coping world. Pretty sad state when you look at it. Which is highlighted in the staggering failure rate of marriages or relationship strife.
No contact is another tool. A protective tool for your mental health. A boundary could, and usually does, include a no contact if/when the disrespectful behaviour is exhibited or happening. A blanket no contact is not a boundary. Boundaries are specific to a given and identified circumstance or event.
So, you can be NC for those disrespectful times during D negotiations. H, when you swear and call me name, I’m hanging up.
For the practicalities regarding the children. Life and limb decisions get discussed. Monetary support issues get discussed. Anything else is not needed. A more amicable divorce or split would allow other discussions to take place, which would be nice. However, basically, regarding kids: Your house, your rules. H’s house, H’s rules.
If and when H can put away his passive aggressive behaviour you can discuss and jointly decide childrearing choices together. (I never got that opportunity, which was just fine by me) No need to engage in the tug of war with him.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I'm glad to hear you're doing so well my sweet Sage!! You deserve all the good in this blessed mess. Finding yourself again is a huge step on the path to healing and here you are. Everything you've said is super uplifting minus the logistical divorce stuff. My only concern with this hashing it out amongst yourselves thing you're doing is that if the minutia is going to a mediator or to be discussed between attorneys all this big stuff you're dumping all this energy into will be thrown out the window the second 3rd parties enter in. I just don't want you expending any more bandwidth than necessary with someone who very likely will change his mind in the 11th hour and you'll have to start from scratch. I don't say any of this to discourage your efforts, more so just to keep an eye on how much of your yourself you're putting into coming to an agreement H may just throw out the window.
As to the passive aggression. I think CW, wooba and DNJ have good advice. I would add, people who are passive aggressive are too cowardly to say what they really want to say unfiltered and too childish to be introspective about why they want to react so badly. The most passive aggressive people on the planet are middle school girls sometimes that seeps in to high school. Think about how you dealt with those girls in middle school and high school. How did they deal with it when their behavior didn't phase you in the least? How did they react when they got a rise out of you? While I like the idea of calling it out, you will have to be in a place to call it as it is as unbothered as possible. Wooba's suggestion of "don't be an ahole" is a pretty good way. What I'm saying here isn't you can't be soft if you're going to call it out. You can't say things like "can't we just be kind to each other" or "you know it really isn't helpful when you talk to me like that." It needs to short, to the point, nip it in the bud like you simply don't have time for that. I would also not validate here. There's no point. What's the point in feeding his ego when he's talking down to you? It isn't written any where in anything that we need to be considerate and kind to people who treat us in an ugly way. Your other option here is like wooba suggested don't engage at all. Act like you didn't even notice he was being a duck, and go about your day.
When you deal with H you need to ask yourself how would I deal with a mean girl? That's what your dealing with. Passive aggression is covert bullying. I can say anecdotally when I saw a mean girl being a mean girl to some one else in HS I'd say "Hey Becky no one is paying you to be a b*tch. How about you sit the eff down and shut up?" That would usually shut them up. If they tried to start with me I'd roll my eyes and walk away. Obviously not mature versions of how you probably should approach H when he's being a Becky. But I just wanted you to be able to visualize what you are dealing with. A grown man acting like a 15 year old girl. I hope that can offer some perspective.
Interesting discussion about passive-aggression. My boyfriend CMM is the king of passive aggressive responses, but I've learned that he lacks the insight to discuss them. Since I know his time on earth is limited with stage 4 lung cancer, and have come to grips with his underlying obsessive compulsive personality disorder, I generally simply ignore. I don't take the bait. I have no expectations to change him, and I know my time of dealing with those aspects is limited. (Sounds cold, I guess, but knowing that he probably will only live another year or two at best makes it easier to let go of things that might be a dealbreaker for me in a long-term relationship. And while this makes him sound kinda awful, he has many good qualities too, including that he loves me maybe more than any other man I've been with, and he does everything he can for me. )
So you have few expectations of changing your stbx at this point too, and know you won't really have to deal with this much longer. Maybe simply ignoring or letting go of his passive aggressive behaviors would work for you too?
I am currently in my second seperation with my husband.... I found the best way to deal with his behaviour was to use "grey rock". I guess its sort of like last resort/180 but with the added twist of being boring. It helped my sanity.
