Help.

[SteveLW]

Thanks everyone, it's just so much to process....a new job, taking care of our daughter 50/50 and this new stance....

Yes, my hope doesn't help me detach.

It bothers me because being kind is one of my values. Being kind was one of our bonds.....

She's kind too, it's in her nature....I can't imagine her ever being different.

There is nothing unkind about being short, business like, and to the point. This is your NGS gnawing at you. You shared short messages in the exchange with her. You did great. And in no way were those mean. You realize there is no other option. Kind or mean, it is a binary state. If you weren't mean then you were by definition, kind. Were you effusive in your kindness? No, but that doesn't mean that you were unkind.

[Jhopeful]

Hi @Sandi2
Thanks - to your questions:

1) So, I'm curious. If you were to describe the actions of a strong man in a sitch such as yours, how would he look to you? Would you see him as a man of who commands respect? Do you see him being a harsh disciplinarian? Do you see strength as unkind or impolite? Do you see detaching as acting mad and/or cold? These are areas you seem to be resisting, so let's talk about what your mind sees when you think of a strong man.

>>>----a lot came out in therapy yesterday and this support helped it all surface. My masculine side is not fully on board - I've done a lot of work around it over the past 17 years however it didn't go deep enough. Yesterday that all became apparent. "Commanding respect" scares me in the sense where I fear the loss of connection as a result. I know I need to heal this and cultivate a healthier sense of power in that regard. It's 100% clear. I have some things that happened to me early on as a kid that have now surfaced as part of the things that were guiding my actions. Truth: I'm realizing through this situation that have a lot of self-loathing and destructive hurtful internal conversations about myself with myself.


2) Why does it bother you so much at the thought of not responding to your WW in your usual manner? Like, why does it bother you if you don't reply to every single photo she sends, or her text that has no question? Why does it bother you if I suggest you need to use less words when texting her? Why do you see it as being cold or impolite? Don't say it's b/c you love her. You've got to get down in the raw meat about who you are as a man. IMHO, if you will dig deep and answer these two questions very honestly, I think we might start getting somewhere.

>>>------ I fear loss of connection and messing things up. I feel like kindness was a tenant of our relationship and that coldness will push her away and it will be perceived as more of me abandoning her (which I did and was painful for her).
I think @Steve85 gave me some clarity around this in his above comment. My therapist also said the same thing.



3) IMHO, if you will dig deep and answer these two questions very honestly, I think we might start getting somewhere.

>>>>------Yes, I 100% agree. I have some long overdue patterns, addictions and beliefs that I am finally looking at. I can't do this work for her, I need to do it for me and realize that this is much much bigger than whether or not we reconcile - and I'm starting to see that and feel it more. I still get confused about where to put my love and hope for her.....



Thanks everyone.

[SteveLW]

JH, do you think acting out of fear makes you attractive or unattractive?

[Jhopeful]

@steve85 Completely unattractive. My strategies to temper the anxiety I have because of an aggressive mother no longer work. This is really starting to become about me now...

[SteveLW]

@steve85 Completely unattractive. My strategies to temper the anxiety I have because of an aggressive mother no longer work. This is really starting to become about me now...

BINGO!

Did you see my response about your concern about kindness vs unkindess? Have you looked into Nice Guy Syndrome?

[Jhopeful]

@steve85 - yes, and it's starting to make some sense....some. And NGS - it's on my list....I read it years ago and I'm getting to a place where it would be more than just a pacifier and a helpful long term solution.



THIS MORNING:
Our daughter is sick. A called me and we spoke about what is going on. Prior to dropping off some meds at their house I called and said,

"listen, I'm missing her right now so I'd rather just leave the meds at the door than go on in."

I left the meds and some balloons for our daughter followed up with a text:
"Keep me posted on the Dr visit. Something to consider, I haven’t had any symptoms of any kind, I could be a-symptomatic but it also could just be a cold. It’s good to keep everything in mind and I trust your judgment."

She followed up with "Good thinking with the balloons 🎈 Shes totally distracted. Thank you so much"
and
"Thank you, they open at nine so I will keep you posted. I will ask what they think we should do, whether they think we should get tested also. I feel like it’s probably just a cold, but since were in this pandemic we are stuck."

She then sent me a few pictures of our daughter playing with the balloons in the tub. I gave them all a heart reply.


----> How are these responses?


the "thank you so much" is something she would never say.... yes I'm analyzing..... ugh...


She mentioned something about needing to be home with her all day and maybe needing help to get some food....she didn't bring it back up......


I now see the lines get blurred really quickly with our daughter.


.....

[Traveler]

Hi JHopeful,

Our daughter is sick. A called me and we spoke about what is going on.

I would, too! As a dad, I'm always up for a call about my children not feeling well. That assumes you knew her purpose was that or another emergency before you picked up the phone, of course.

I called and said, "listen, I'm missing her right now

Seems unnecessary. How does emoting about your feelings help your D? It's also not a kindness.

so I'd rather" just leave the meds at the door than go on in."

Okay. Stronger is, "I'll leave the meds by the door," being decisive instead of stating a preference.

I left the meds and some balloons for our daughter

Fantastic!!! Props. I award thee, the coveted DB forum "Great Parent" badge. (:

Keep me posted on the Dr visit.

Great--as her parent, you want updates on your daughter's medical care.

Something to consider, I haven’t had any symptoms of any kind, I could be a-symptomatic but it also could just be a cold. It’s good to keep everything in mind and I trust your judgment."

Seems unnecessary. "I haven't had any symptoms of any kind" is meat. Expanding on that is also good. "I haven't had any cough, loss of taste, or known exposures." But then you explain your understanding of COVID. I wonder why--does she need to know this? Do you think you know more than her? She's about to see a doc who's presumably trained more than laymen in recognizing COVID vs. colds.

She then sent me a few pictures of our daughter playing with the balloons in the tub. I gave them all a heart reply.

I would also heart these. Even if I rarely exchange pics with my ex, I'd want these.

[sandi2]

I have some things that happened to me early on as a kid that have now surfaced as part of the things that were guiding my actions.

Thank you for answering painful questions. I expected that it was something that influenced you when you were young. I think everyone develops healthy or unhealthy mental attitudes based on their experiences and/or influences during childhood.

I especially appreciate your frank honesty about the fear of commanding respecting. I think this is why enforcing boundaries are difficult for people who share this fear. IMHO, they usually imagine some type of very uncomfortable confrontation, maybe even violence as a consequence to disrespect, or they see themselves being punished in the end. I've had people ask me how to know if they are being disrespected, especially by their spouse. Do you recognize signs of disrespect, or have you become so passive and avoidant that disrespect has become the norm in everyday life.......especially at your own residential address?

Jhopeful, I encourage you to continue your progress with your IC. You have revealed the basic issue we often see in LBS's, IMHO. I have made the statement before that LBS's and wayward spouses have totally opposite mental attitudes.......even before the wayward mindset begins. To boil it down, it's like the WS knows in their heart they are wrong, but more importantly to this subject is that they KNOW they would have never tolerated the same behavior from their LBS. It's as if they are saying, "I show disrespect toward you, and you take it...... but I won't allow you to disrespect me". What do you think about this?

Have you ever took time to list the most important things you need in order to determine your self value? I probably didn't word that sentence very well, but hopefully, you know what I mean. Do you have this fear of commanding respect from other people outside your family, like coworkers, friends, neighbors, etc. What are the things you will not tolerate from others? Anything? You can't set boundaries, unless you know what it takes to protect your self respect.

If you did not fear losing connection with that person, what would change about Jhopeful? Do you have a mental image of that version of yourself?

I have to wonder if some things you may think is your W's insecurities or hang-ups, are really more about your own. I've seen a lot of newcomer nice-guys make reference to their W's abandonment issues. These nice-guys are overly concerned about how their WW will see his new approach or stance as being cold, unkind, impolite, etc. No offense intended when I say I think it's more about his own NGS and insecurities (abandonment, etc.). He is afraid, and the fear is driving his actions (or lack thereof). I dare say that this fear is constantly driving him in everything in life.

Currently, you have to think/work through these issues and decide if you want to change anything about yourself. Don't make any grand pronouncements or sudden move without discussing it here or with your IC. Okay? Since you have shown willingness to dig deep, I think you have a good chance in developing a healthier mental attitude. lt may or may not save the MR, but I think it will definitely save you and give you a happier future. It may be with your current W, or not. Right now, your focus needs to be Jhopeful, the man. You can't save anything, before you save yourself.

(((hugs)))

P.S. Keep posting.

[Jhopeful]

@CWarrior - Thanks. My reply about not wanting to see her was really me practicing being authentic, I'll need to think about that more.....


She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options. She's a nurse so she needs to be careful. I'm a pretty resourceful man and found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing. After we went over some next steps I could hear that she was still unsettled. Then she said - "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time" It was the first time she shared any emotion with me in 6 weeks. Our daughter was in a fit in the background, A said that they were both hungry and she continued to spiral.

I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door.

Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.

I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best"



Am I getting this right?

[SteveLW]

@CWarrior - Thanks. My reply about not wanting to see her was really me practicing being authentic, I'll need to think about that more.....


She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options. She's a nurse so she needs to be careful. I'm a pretty resourceful man and found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing. After we went over some next steps I could hear that she was still unsettled. Then she said - "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time" It was the first time she shared any emotion with me in 6 weeks. Our daughter was in a fit in the background, A said that they were both hungry and she continued to spiral.

I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door.

Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.

I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best"



Am I getting this right?

Wait. You found it necessary to RESCUE your damsel in distress......AND SHE IS A NURSE?!? That to me is like calling my mom and dad for technology help. It doesn't make sense. She is in the medical field. This is where your NGS is kicking in.

Then you take care of breakfast? Wow.

So look at this:

"She called me in a panic...we talked through a few options."
"found 3 practitioners who can do rapid testing"
" "I'm really upset because of missing work, I have no paid time off, we have to cancel the baby sitters...and a few other things" I said I'm sorry and it all sounds like a lot. Let's take it one step at a time""
"I said I'd go get them some breakfast and dropped it off at their front door. "
"Then she sent me a text elaborating on all the things she's stressed about - canceled dentist appointment cancelling 2 babysitters and a friend visit.
I simply replied - "I'm sorry, sounds overwhelming. I know you're doing your best""

You and her are fast becoming BFFs! JHopeful, do you know how many women end up dating their male BFFs? Hint: It ain't a lot.

The friendzone is an awful place to be when you want to be a woman's lover. But that is where you are headed, if not already there.

Everything you just did is what a friend would do. And I know what you are going to say "but it was my daughter that was sick....."

You have a long life ahead of you of coparenting. You cannot rescue her every time she has parenting issues. That isn't coparenting, that is one parent parenting, and the other parent getting off scot-free. As a parent should should have had breakfast stuff in the house to feed her daughter. She didn't need KNIGHT IN SHINING armore Jhopeful to come rescue her from the "sick daughter dragon".

So, do you think all of this helped you in your goal to get this woman back into your life....or harmed you? (Yeah yeah, you were just being 'nice'. Do we really have to go over that ground again??)