Before he went away, X expressed interest in finalising the new parenting plan when he returned.
I'd already prepped the paperwork with my lawyer in January, but the hiccup over the birthday party made me hesitant to do anything that could trigger an outburst. He tends to arc up whenever he is a) contacted by my lawyer, or b) asked to commit to anything.
So with the party out of the way, I instructed my lawyer to send the paperwork this week. It details everything we agreed upon last year. Let's see if he is willing to sign a document that legally holds him accountable as a parent. We haven't had any response yet.
I've been rewatching Mad Men lately and this quote made me think. Emphasis mine.
“I don’t think I ever wanted to be the man who loves children,” Don tells Megan. He goes on:
"But from the moment they’re born that baby comes out and you act proud and excited and hand out cigars but you don’t feel anything. Especially if you had a difficult childhood. You want to love them, but you don’t. And the fact that you’re faking that feeling makes you wonder if your own father had the same problem."
Becoming a father was the downfall of X. And knowing what I know of his angry, distant father... maybe that's why.
Last edited by job; 02/06/2102:49 PM. Reason: added link to previous thread
These broken people have an uphill battle which started when they were children. Many of a person’s traits, their beliefs and values, their biases and prejudices, their strengths, and their failings got root when they were young by the actions of their parents.
I can completely see how one feeling empty and hollow regarding their own children would think the same of their Mom and Dad. The idea that their parents are as empty towards them as they are too their kids would turn their world on edge.
I know my Dad (and Mom) loved and love me. My Dad is a great man and father, and I followed his footsteps. I do him proud, and he tells me.
XW’s Mom was a horrible shrew. And her Dad basically followed along. Her Mom told her, to her face, in front of me, that children are a terrible burden, and to never have any. And of course don’t forget they cuts ties with her, never having even seen their four amazing grandchildren.
I suspect you can imagine how high in regard I was held in their eyes. Lol. If they would treat their own flesh and blood that way, well... not much chance for DnJ.
My parents welcomed J with open arms. She quickly became a daughter; something I’ve done with my boys GFs. J became sister to my sister, all well before we married. Truly, she had an excellent family (in-law). One would think that would be that. But no. Her unknown and unrealized wounds run deep and would not remain silent.
From what I’ve pieced together over the years, and the various clues and things the odd relative says and does, I suspect XW’s traumas run similar to rape and sexual assault. That, especially as a young child, is going to mess someone up pretty bad. Yet, I didn’t know. And for all those years W never suffered or showed any signs of such a horrible past. And here we are. Denial is a powerful needed force. It protects one’s very psyche from that which would shatter them.
Until about a year before BD, our children were loved - absolutely - by both me and J. That love was displayed, felt, said; God knows we had a wonderful life.
The good things and how to stop this being passed down. My kids knew their loving Mom. For most of their lives they had W/Mom. Post BD, of course I love them. And we discussed this. Information is power. Power to understand. Power to empathize. Power to forgive. My children, which I include my in-law children (so 7 of them), all know about the fragility of the mind and the reality one creates.
S2 will not remember the divorce. In his life your situation is completely normal. Which is such a good thing. My kids see people in wheelchairs as completely normal, they all grew up knowing grandpa in a wheelchair (Dad became paralyzed months after my second son was born, so 21 years ago).
Getting a formal binding parenting agreement signed and in place will provide much stability and foundation in both your and S2’s lives.
For those reading along, or who stubble upon this great gal’s thread in some future date - having a vanisher MLCer is quite a blessing.
My goodness, I didn’t mean to write so much. I was just here eating supper, reading your posts, and started typing. By the way, supper was thick cut slabs of beef cut from an angus roast, three boiled potatoes, all smothered in brown gray. And some cheery tomatoes on the side. Yummy!
Have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Love that show. That quote hit home for me. Cheering for you that all goes well mama.
~Never Give Up ~ 2019 Mar BD June BD Dec Aow/xgf 2020 Jan he wants D Feb he flys2 ow Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn Apr he leaves for work until Nov Oct D FINAL 2020 Living MY Happiest Life Ever
Love that show. That quote hit home for me. Cheering for you that all goes well mama.
~Never Give Up ~ 2019 Mar BD June BD Dec Aow/xgf 2020 Jan he wants D Feb he flys2 ow Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn Apr he leaves for work until Nov Oct D FINAL 2020 Living MY Happiest Life Ever
I've been rewatching Mad Men lately and this quote made me think. Emphasis mine.
“I don’t think I ever wanted to be the man who loves children,” Don tells Megan. He goes on:
"But from the moment they’re born that baby comes out and you act proud and excited and hand out cigars but you don’t feel anything. Especially if you had a difficult childhood. You want to love them, but you don’t. And the fact that you’re faking that feeling makes you wonder if your own father had the same problem."
Becoming a father was the downfall of X. And knowing what I know of his angry, distant father... maybe that's why.
I'm curious, how was his reaction then when he knew you were pregnant? Was he happy back then?
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
Amen. Reading about five year plus situations makes me feel pretty grateful that X was in such a hurry to start his new life that he settled property and finances early on to get his hands on $$$.
If there is one thing I’d advise everyone who comes here in the future, it’d be to settle that stuff ASAP while/if you work on the relationship in the background. Easier said than done, I know. But you have the best chance of success getting them to agree to a favourable settlement during that short window while they are feeling guilty or high on affair fumes.
My two cents!
Quote
I'm curious, how was his reaction then when he knew you were pregnant? Was he happy back then?
Our son was planned. We got married May 2016, started trying January 2017. As far as I know, we were both happy. We were newlyweds! He still had an anger problem and some unpleasant characteristics, but I didn’t know anything about emotional abuse or narcissism at the time. I fell pregnant May 2017. Things were already going downhill, or more accurately, he was becoming more abusive as I no longer poured all of my energy into keeping him satisfied.
I’ve rehashed some of this before, but the gist is that he had no patience for the toll that pregnancy took, no appreciation for the effort and aftermath of giving birth, and no respect for the role of motherhood. And seemed to get no enjoyment from the baby’s presence.
The highlights:
- The day before my positive pregnancy test he yelled at me saying I’d ruined the experience for him. I was literally in the middle of excitedly explaining how my elevated BBT meant we might be successful this cycle. This made my cry, which made him angry with me.
- He started spending long hours at work. This was around the time he hired OW (who was only 18 at the time— to this day I still feel disgusted at how predatory he acted as a married 27-year old man with a baby on the way. He totally exploited his position of power as her boss).
- He applied for a leadership program that would start the same week S2 was born. I don’t think that was a coincidence. This required him to spend a day a week at the company head office an hour away and attend a conference a few states away while S2 was a newborn.
- This is fairly stupid, but one time while heavily pregnant, I called him at home to say I’d had a bad day at work and just wanted to eat my leftover cheese fries when I got back. He got off the phone and ATE MY CHEESE FRIES. Then when I got home, he tried to convince me that I’d promised he could eat them (?) and I had no right to be upset (??) and in fact, now he was angry with me for being a b!!tch (???).
- The morning after S2’s birth, he didn’t come back to the hospital when expected. I’d asked him to pick up breakfast as I was starving. He was incommunicado for a couple of hours and late with my breakfast. He then went out to eat with MIL who grilled him over the decision not to circumcise the baby. He threw me under the bus saying (untruthfully) that he had no say.
- After we’d been home a few days, I was sitting in the baby’s room rocking him to sleep. I was exhausted and shell-shocked and trying to cope with a fairly significant birth injury (S2 had a nuchal hand presentation) so I was crying. He came in and handed me a chore list, saying “that’s your half, and I’m not cleaning the cat litter anymore”.
He left 15 months later and things just got worse over that period of time. He became less engaged, more resentful, more avoidant, more neglectful of the baby.
I had a rare night out to see Book of Mormon with a friend just after the baby turned one. S2 was sick so I’d left instructions to give him Panadol and not let him cry in his bed. I got home at midnight to every light in the house blazing, a sick screaming baby in the cot, and X sleeping with a pillow over his head to muffle the noise.
I’m so glad he’s gone.
Last edited by job; 02/10/2104:22 PM. Reason: edited language
Oh, and thank you for sharing what you know of XW’s past, DnJ. It’s not hard to feel empathy for these people despite what they’ve done. The vanishers in particular, as I mentioned on bttrfly’s thread. There is something truly broken within them.
Ugh. What an a$$! I think it is a blessing that he is a vanisher. The less exposure you and your son have to that kind of negative energy, the better. Your story about the cheese fries is not stupid. It is a great example of the kind of narcissistic personality you were/are dealing with.
I agree with you about getting the finances in order ASAP. In my sitch, XH wanted everything settled within months of him moving out and while I didn’t want to, I knew that it would be in my best interest to do it and that when the hurt had faded, I would be glad that I did. A lot of LBS’s seem to believe that if they stall and put it off, they have a better chance of saving the marriage. I think if the WAS has gotten to the point of offering settlements, they have genuinely made up their mind and efforts to stall are only delaying the inevitable. XH offered me a really good deal and I knew that I would be an idiot not to sign on the dotted line. Two years later...I am so happy that I did. It is way easier to heal when you aren’t dealing with conflicts over property and money. I am crossing my fingers for you that he signs and you can get on with your life. (((HUGS)))
But you have the best chance of success getting them to agree to a favourable settlement during that short window while they are feeling guilty or high on affair fumes.
Agreed!!! Mine wasn't particularly fast, but was very straightforward. He has apparently complained for years afterwards even though our financial split was very by the book. The only thing remotely negotiable was whether the alimony would be based on what I was currently making, or what he felt I COULD be making - we split the difference. I traded off the last two years of alimony for something else, (can't remember what) but that would have made no difference because he retired shortly after the abbreviated alimony was done and so I began collecting my share of his pension which is slightly more than the alimony was.
Scout - your H sure sounds like he was already cheating when you got pregnant or right after. His pathological behavior is so extreme. I'm so glad you were able to get out and get the finances settled quickly. I wouldn't sweat the visitation - he's unlikely to take half of what he has, and that may be for the best for your child. (And I would have strangled him over the cheese fries incident - do NOT get between a pregnant woman and her food!)
I think with distance you can find empathy for these broken people. The idea of looking at your child and not experiencing that primal rush of love, doubting your own parents' love for you... that is all just so sad.
That being said, I still read your description of his behaviors towards you and it makes me so angry. I guess you can't expect a broken person to act in any other way, but it burns me that his outlet was cruelty towards his pregnant wife/new mom and baby son.
So glad that you are on the other side of this, and hoping that you get that parenting plan signed soon.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Wow Scout... I'm so sorry for what you've been through. You are doing great mama. I love reading your story. When I first started on this board, I thought success was saving your marriage. It's not. It's about saving yourself. And you are a success.
Keep on Keepin' on
~Never Give Up ~ 2019 Mar BD June BD Dec Aow/xgf 2020 Jan he wants D Feb he flys2 ow Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn Apr he leaves for work until Nov Oct D FINAL 2020 Living MY Happiest Life Ever
Like you, I didn't realize that these things were signs of a disordered love.
I think for both of us, we mistook our ability to love them for a true mutual love.
I didn't know that anything better was possible, except in fairytales. I am still not sure except that the guys I know here and maybe one other IRL give me the hope that it is possible for a man to keep loving a woman in a True and self-giving way.
And I think that at least in my case, my love did make H try to be his better self. But I guess that ultimately when MLC hit, the mask or the attempt or whatever it was became too hard.
It sounds like your H was struggling with his demons from day one.
Last edited by Gerda; 02/11/2104:31 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thanks everyone. Even though it’s all done and dusted, it’s nice to know that my experiences are validated. It’s so crazy how your brain is able to justify and excuse that stuff while you’re going through it.
It was interesting to reflect on those times going into S3’s birthday this week. Kind of a bittersweet feeling. While he was two I could still get away with calling him a baby. Although that’s laughable because he’s always been 99th percentile for height and weight and has been mistaken for a four year old since he was two and a half. But regardless, I don’t think you can call a three year old a baby any more
X messaged me at lunchtime on S3’s birthday. He said he would love to talk to him if I could tell him a good time to call. He signed off “hope you are having a great day”. I told him when and he did indeed call right on time; in fact, two minutes early. I put him on speaker and handed the phone to S3.
Now, while it’s true that three year olds are not the greatest conversationalists, my boy can talk the hind leg off a donkey. But this call was awkward. It was the obligatory call you have with a distant relative who doesn’t know you that well. To be fair, it was the first time he’s ever talked to his dad on the phone.
How was your day? “Good”. Did you get any presents? “Yes”. What did you get? (silence from S3) Are you being a good boy for Mama? Are you doing the dishes and helping with cooking? “Yes” (weird question, but he does help me in the kitchen) Are you lying? Sounds like you’re lying (X laughed). “No, I’m not”. Are you happy? “Yes” I miss you. “I miss you too” Do you want to have a party on Sunday? “Yes” What do you want to eat? (silence from S3) I love you (silence from S3, then after about ten seconds he said “I love you”)
By comparison, when we video chat with my parents S3 rambles on and on, asks them questions, volunteers information etc. After five minutes on the phone with his dad, S3 said “Mama, I want to say goodbye to him.” On a positive note, he also said he wanted to give him a kiss and a cuddle. X said “you will on Sunday, okay? I promise.”
About half an hour after the call, I got a text from X.
Who asks a 3 year old if he’s helping do the dishes??? I think your ex needs some education on child development!
At least the rest of the call was appropriate and your ex is behaving himself. I think the best one can hope for with someone on the narcissist/ sociopath spectrum like him, is that he will act like a good father so that he will look good in the eyes of others. This will probably happen more when he has a girlfriend observing his actions and less during times that he’s single.
My (much more benign) narcissistic ex looked like a great dad - so long as they were participating in the activities that HE wanted to do, and so long as they made him look good. Once they got older, developed adolescent issues, became more troubled - he became less and less of a dad. I hope your ex stays in relationships with women that he will want to “look good in front of”.
Gerda, I want to call attention to something you posted.
Quote
I am still not sure except that the guys I know here and maybe one other IRL give me the hope that it is possible for a man to keep loving a woman in a True and self-giving way.
Here's the thing. I am happy to do 50/50 in a relationship. Loving like a man is easy. I can meet him halfway. I can split the bills. I can be there for him when it’s convenient for me. I can hang out with him as long as it doesn’t interfere with my plans. I can pass time with him when I have nothing better to do or anyone better to see. I can be his “equal”.
I could easily love like a man.
But I’m a 100% kind of girl. I don’t meet people halfway. I am all or nothing. So until I find someone that will meet me at 100%, I will save all of that effort for me and my child.
Dearest women, you know exactly what you are willing to give. You know you love 100%, so don’t settle for 50/50. Two halves do not make a whole when it comes to relationships. If it's not 100/100, you are being exploited. Until you find a man that loves you like a woman would, save that love for yourself.
I, too, question whether men have what it takes to love like a woman. We live with the danger of being molested in public places, routinely harassed at work, sacrificing our bodies to give birth, breaking our backs to maintain a household, being used for sex over and over, while simultaneously being slut-shamed, then eventually abandoned for a younger model of ourselves, raising that man's children while he feeds his impulses and addictions into oblivion...
To live amidst all that and STILL continue to give endlessly of yourself...
That is what it is to love like a woman.
ETA: and that is why the number one attitude to break in our children to prevent them ending up here in twenty, thirty, forty years is ENTITLEMENT. Especially those of us raising boys.
Loving like a man is easy. I can meet him halfway. I can split the bills. I can be there for him when it’s convenient for me. I can hang out with him as long as it doesn’t interfere with my plans. I can pass time with him when I have nothing better to do or anyone better to see. I can be his “equal”.
I could easily love like a man.
But I’m a 100% kind of girl. I don’t meet people halfway. I am all or nothing.
You are projecting H’s poor qualities upon men.
Men love 100%. Trust me on this!
Originally Posted by scout12
I, too, question whether men have what it takes to love like a woman. We live with the danger of being molested in public places, routinely harassed at work, sacrificing our bodies to give birth, breaking our backs to maintain a household, being used for sex over and over, while simultaneously being slut-shamed, then eventually abandoned for a younger model of ourselves, raising that man's children while he feeds his impulses and addictions into oblivion...
Perhaps you never read my thread.
Men do not have the market on irrational, immoral, deceitful, manipulative, lying, cheating, filthy, family-destroying, self-distructive behaviours.
We too break our backs maintaining home and house. We too get use and abused for sex, for money, for home and hearth (to name a few). We too get abandoned. We get shamed and ridiculed and commonly blamed and prejudged (case in point).
People have an incredible ability for evil. And an incredible ability for good. Gender plays little part in that. It takes two to cheat!
I am a man. And a damn fine one at that. Honourable, loyal, faithful, truthful, sincere, reliable, and loving.
I’m sorry you are hurting from XH’s inadequacies. (((Hugs)))
Love
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I gotta disagree with you both! I think a man's love is very different from a woman's, and that's what I like about it!
And I don't agree, DnJ, that you know how to give love 100%. I would say you know how to give love 670,616,629%, which is also the speed of electricmagnetic waves and light.
I love how a man loves! It's very different from how a woman loves, and I love receiving that kind of love and giving my 100% woman love. I love to write characters who can do that and to read about them in great lit. I did receive it enough to know what it is -- it's just those guys either didn't want to keep me or it was fleeting or conditional, like my H. Or I guess with my H it wasn't so much conditional as totally disordered and ultimately was potentially a mask for a lack of love.
Ultimately, whether you are a faith person or not, I think that Paul's admonition on this is the key to it all. What he tells each of us to do indicates what is hardest for each of us to do --
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body...This is a profound mystery...However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
It's kind of the men are from mars and women are from venus idea -- in other words -- he had to tell wives to respect their husbands because that doesn't come as naturally to us as love. We women often think a man has to earn our respect and are mystified as to how our loving love is not understood or having the impact we want it to. Likewise, respect is very natural to a man, but the raw and open heart required for love comes less naturally to men, who may be less driven by feelings or less in touch with them or who were taught to block them. (Except you, DnJ. But not totally. I've always said that detachment might come naturally easier to you than me, and your being a man may be part of it.) Paul has to tell the men to love and the women to respect because he knows it comes hard to each side and that the other side is longing for it. A great book on this is called, Love and Respect but I see the idea in secular books too, including one that perhaps maybe one or two of you just might have heard of before called, Divorce Busting.
I regularly watch my friends who seem to have decent marriages subtly tear their husbands down though they truly love them. And likewise I regularly have watched my guy friends stumble around the fragile hearts of their wives though they truly respect them.
I know that MLC was not my fault, and now, deep on this journey, I realize that my H may have been battling his mental health demons from day one, but I also did a lot of work to change myself the first few years, and I know that I was a very loving and self-sacrificing wife but really not woman who showed her husband that she respected and admired him very often. I don't think that would have changed the path of MLC, but it has already changed my interactions with men and maybe one day will allow me to be a better wife to someone. When I'm like 80.
And that is my two cents on this topic. Flame away, posters! : )
Last edited by Gerda; 02/14/2107:48 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
First, a quick apology. I spend much of my internet time in radical feminist spaces and this may not be the place for this discussion. It might not even be related to my initial point. However, I do welcome any and all respectful points of view!
DnJ, you are absolutely right-- men do not have a monopoly on individual bad behaviour. Your XW is case in point.
You, also, in my opinion, are functioning at a higher level of consciousness than most men. When I wrote my post, I was excluding you in my mind as I typed I don't like using the #notallmen disclaimer because in my experience dialoguing with men, it tends to descend into defensive whataboutism and false equivalencies rather than parsing the core issue of my post, a cause I am very passionate advocating against-- the systemic misogyny behind our patriarchal culture. And all men, including you, benefit from living inside this framework.
But, if it helps lower defenses... #notallmen.
I'm not hurting. Nor am I bitter, or a man-hater, or a feminazi, or whatever other epithets that MRAs, redpillers and/or conservatives like to throw around. I prefer to think of myself as woke. It's impossible to spend time in radfem spaces around radfem people without the scales falling from your eyes. It becomes impossible to ignore that our social, economic, religious, and cultural institutions are designed to function upon the subjugation and exploitation of women. This is not a bug within these systems, it's a core feature.
Yes, women do use men for sex, money, and/or resources. Men provide protection and help create children. Whether right or wrong, these women are exploiting the system to their benefit, because the system is built around ensuring men have easy and free access to women's labour and women's bodies. Despite the statistically heightened risk of violence and death that exists for women in heterosexual relationships, women do continue to use men to provide things they are denied or prevented from accessing easily-- most of which boil down to the autonomy provided by financial independence.
Of all the women in the world who were intentionally killed in a recent year, more than half were murdered by their male partner or male family member. Women continue to be overrepresented as victims in intimate partner homicides while over 80 percent of offenders are men. Women and girls together account for 72 percent of all human trafficking victims, with girls representing more than three out of every four child trafficking victims. Most women and girls are trafficked for the purpose of sexual exploitation, with others being sold into slavery or for physical labour.
In heterosexual relationships, women are more likely to be the lower earners, meaning their jobs are considered a lower priority when disruptions (like COVID, for example, which has been disastrous for workforce equality) come along. Across the world, women—including and (oddly enough) especially those who work outside the home—do more housework and have less leisure time than their male partners. The 'second shift' disproportionately applies to women.
As a young mother recently returned to the workforce from maternity leave, I was extraordinarily fortunate that my X leaving had very little financial impact due to my high-paying field of work. Other women in my position who gave up their careers to raise children would have been left destitute and homeless in an instant. Male financial success is built off the back of unpaid or underpaid female labour. The exploitation of SAHMs, secretaries, cooks, childcare workers, cleaners and casual workers (ie. a female-skewed workforce) serves to grease the wheels of the economy.
Speaking more on the gendered effects of pandemics worldwide. Restricted movement, social isolation, and economic insecurity are increasing women’s vulnerability to violence in the home around the world. School closures affect girls’ life chances, because many (particularly in third world countries) drop out of education completely to help at home. (A rise in teen pregnancy rates exacerbates this trend.) Domestic and sexual violence against women both rise alarmingly without a proportionate increase in funding for services. And more women die in childbirth because resources are diverted elsewhere due to the necessary distortion of healthcare systems.
Men and women are not equal and never will be as long as a man's presence in her life reduces her chance of survival. A woman will love a man even if it kills her. A man says he loves a woman even as he kills her. That's the difference.
I don't see how this is any better than some of the stuff you've scolded Tom on in his thread. Rash generalizations. I realize you are still hurting, and I won't bother picking apart some of the stats you've posted, but it might do you some good to get away from the radical feminist spaces. Yes, men and women are different. Unfortunately, men are generally more violent. However, it can be harmful when you start stereotyping groups of people--whether it's based on gender, race, political or religious affiliation, sexual orientation, etc.; whether it's faulty or not.
I choose to believe in the goodness of people... in the goodness of each individual--until proven otherwise. The majority of people that I've met, once I've gotten to know them, have been good people--no matter what "group" they came from. I try to never lose sight of that whenever I'm inclined to start prejudging a group of people.
I hope you are put in a position to be around good men. Or put yourself in a position to meet them. They are out there. I hope you live a long and happy life with one of those men.
I'd like to add that I'm sorry that this is probably my first post in your thread. I do read both LBH and LBW threads, but I feel like I offer a better perspective to LBHs. I read the situations with LBWs and it just seems like most of the WAHs don't deserve the women posting here. Most of the LBHs, myself included, need to grow from this experience. That's probably not entirely true. Everybody needs to grow from this experience, but maybe I can offer a better perspective to LBHs.
Actually, my personal view on Tom and his attitudes toward women and heterosexual relationships are borne entirely of my beliefs as a radical feminist and the obvious fact that he leans far to the opposite side of the political spectrum to me.
As I mentioned, debates about patriarchal culture with those who either deny its existence and/or benefit from its perpetuation tend to devolve into false equivalencies and defensive whataboutism, which I gather is the case here. I glean from your posts that you and I are not politically aligned either, so I won’t go there, other than to say that there absolutely are ideologies that are deserving of scrutiny and judgement, particularly those that seek to maintain the status quo for a select few at the expense of other marginalised groups.
I understand that individual men come here having experienced tough times through the loss of their family unit and the financial difficulty of supporting a cheating or runaway wife. That is terribly sad. I feel for those men and often feel like telling them to enforce immediate and harsh consequences on their grossly entitled partners. As heartbreaking as it is, their experience is not equivalent to the systemic misogyny that all women experience in every aspect of their lives.
Thank you for your well-wishes, but I am complete without a man in my life. I know good men, many of them through this site. Their individual virtue doesn’t erase the existence of patriarchal frameworks built on oppression. I empathise with those who are made uncomfortable by the exposure of these frameworks, but not as much as I do with its victims.
I’ll assume that your suggestion for me to step away from radical feminist spaces is one of fatherly concern because... actually, it doesn’t make a lot of sense no matter how I look at it. Is it weird to you that a woman would seek out spaces that validate her lived experience? I’ve never felt the need to suggest that people who don't share my beliefs step away from their echo chambers, despite the fact that their beliefs contribute to the normalisation of policies which result in actual violence and death.
I’ll agree with you on one point, that actually is the exact point I’m making— believing in the goodness of individuals. I absolutely do, always have (sometimes to my detriment) and always will (through the hard-won wisdom of my lived experience). But I will never stop thinking critically about my place in society at large.
Just want to note for the record (since apparently I wasn’t clear enough the first time I said it) that I am not still hurting and my beliefs are not reactionary. My situation is permanently resolved. I am very happily divorced by my own choice with no ill will toward my ex-spouse. He’s a flawed human being just like me. But I am safer without him in my life.
Outside of arguments about the patriarchy - I do think that in general, more women than men put up with prolonged bad behavior on the part of their partners. Perhaps it has to do with more nurturing natures ( I imagine there are a lot more wives standing with husbands who are being treated for sex addiction, than there are husbands standing with wives). While some men will try to reconcile after a wife’s affair, not many will after repeated affairs on the part of their wife - although many women will continue to try to make it work with a husband who is a repeat cheater. Perhaps it has to do with differences in the dating market (it’s certainly easier for a 50 year old man to find a new wife than it is for a 50 year old woman to find a new husband) . Perhaps it has to do with being raised with fairytales. But I also suspect that some of it has to do with economic inequality.
I’ve noticed as a general trend (obviously with exceptions) that the more economically independent a woman is here, the better able she is to move on emotionally from her divorce.
Moving away from the abstract back into reality...
After coming across X while swiping on Tinder last night, my friend went on a discovery mission to see what he’s been up to on social media lately.
The month out of state he just had was an adventure holiday with OW. My friend said WTF! How do they afford all the stuff they do! Jetskiing, golfing, skydiving, fishing, biking, festivals, holidays, hikes, glamping. WTAF! He is never growing up. So all that stuff was more important than being here for S3’s birthday.
His Tinder profile had been active in the last seven days. It was refreshed with new photos from the last time I saw it. One featured yet another new motorbike different to the one he had while we were married. His finances must be under some serious strain. We never took such a lengthy or expensive holiday together.
Of course it does beg the question why is he back on Tinder if he’s investing so much time and money into his relationship with OW!
He also responded to my lawyer about the parenting plan saying it all looked reasonable and fair (yay!) except the arrangement for S3’s birthday. The first draft gave the non-custodial parent on that day four hours of visitation after school. Then I realised that me being the main custodial parent would mean I’d very rarely get those hours. I suggested alternating years but he is right, that’s not a satisfying solution either.
Does anyone have suggestions on an alternative arrangement?
Not sure I see a solution other than alternating years or two hours apiece.
As for your ex - not to sound overly suspicious, but please run a credit report on yourself and your son. Probably your ex is just running up a ton of debt in his own name, but sociopaths like him HAVE been known to get credit cards in their ex's or children's names and run them up. I'd check just to be thorough. That sounds like an awful lot of money he's been spending.
Not sure if anyone has seen this in the news. If you've ever felt weak or ashamed or pathetic or humiliated in the wake of your X's affair, this story should give you some validation.
An Australian academic who spent 800 days in an Iranian prison discovered her husband was having an affair with their mutual colleague while she was in jail.
She found out from her mother the day she returned to the country following her long imprisonment. She suspected something was up when her husband didn't even bother to call and say "I'm happy you're free."
The jail sentence was described as psychological torture-- she was housed in solitary confinement, kept freezing cold, blasted with constant noise and light, and beaten by guards.
And yet she admitted that her husband's betrayal was harder for her to process.
She suspected something was up when her husband didn't even bother to call and say "I'm happy you're free."
Wow, that's cold. I mean, I could understand after a couple of years giving up on her ever returning and moving on, but he was one of the most meaningful connections in her life, and he "didn't bother to call"?!
I know, right?! I thought she was incredibly gracious in her public statement about him under the circumstances.
Nothing much is happening with X. He’s had the parenting plan paperwork for two months and done nothing. I suppose he could be reviewing it with a lawyer, but he hasn’t had one this whole time and I don’t really see him forking out to pay for one now given we are in agreement on everything. But who knows.
He still manages to be a pest in small ways. Yesterday afternoon when S3 got back from two hours with his dad (with a scraped elbow from falling off a shopping trolley, natch) he told me "Dad said you don't like him". I'm annoyed at how inappropriate it is to triangulate with a three-year old for sympathy. Once again, deflecting responsibility for his actions. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t intentional, that kind of statement will influence S3’s opinion of me and my decisions.
I just said “Dad broke a promise that was very special to me and that’s why we are not friends”.
The man is pathologically incapable of putting his son first.
Yup, that's what emotional immaturity looks like!! I can't even fathom how to explain things like this to a three year old. Would it be too straightforward to answer, "Yup he is right, I don't like him." ? lol.
S3 is a smart little cookie, I think he picked up what I was putting down!
Last week my L emailed to say the parenting plan had been signed by X. I go in this week to sign my parts and then it will be filed with the court. It's a bittersweet feeling. More protection and more certainty for all of us, but less time with S3 for me. He deserves that time with his dad though and I have no qualms about it.
I will have one night a week childfree and three weekend days a month. So much free time Thinking of joining an adult swim squad for fitness or playing trombone again in the local concert band. I've forgotten what it's like to have hobbies outside the home. It's been survival mode since S3 was born.
Transitioning to the new custody schedule has been... challenging.
I sent an email at the start of the month to make sure we were on the same page about the transition-- accommodating prior engagements, organising any swaps required for special occasions, confirming pickup times and procedures etc. It was well-received with a co-operative response so I was feeling hopeful.
First midweek dinner... he didn't comply with the agreement regarding return of belongings. Sneered and told me to calm down when I politely asked him to return S3's things.
First sleepover... refused to handover S3 unless I met him at the front door, despite the agreement stating that changeovers take place at the kerb.
This week... we swapped the midweek dinner due to a family event on my side. He informed me (without asking if it suited) he was keeping him overnight to make up for missed time. Returned him 45 minutes late in the morning.
Next, I'm bracing myself to arrange the swap for Mother's Day in two weeks' time.
14 years and 9 months left of this...
Ending on a positive note, S3 is doing really well with the transition. He's talking about his dad more often in conversation, not saying he misses him or anything, but mentioning things he said or did. Jetskiing, going on bushwalks, out for dinner. It seems X is pulling out all the stops Hopefully he is trying to establish some kind of routine over there as well.
Scout, any idea what's triggering this behavior--e.g., insisting on front-door inside of curbside pickups when you two previously negotiated curbside pickups? It sounds mighty frustrating, especially keeping S3 an extra 45 minutes without your agreement. Maybe take deep breaths and consider what matters and what doesn't. Let go of the bits that don't matter. It sounded like the new schedule was overall a win for you.
I wish that grey rock was more effective with him! For example, when he refused to handover S3 at the kerb, I just met him at the door and said nothing. When he told me he was keeping him overnight, I didn’t respond. When he told me he was bringing him back late, I didn’t respond. It’s almost like he takes my withdrawal and protective barriers around myself as a personal attack. My coolness pokes his conscience, perhaps. I have this constant low level fear that he will escalate and involve S3 to provoke some kind of reaction because it does takes a lot to make me engage nowadays. My communications are brief, professional, and breezy. I use respectful but firm language. I can usually pick when he gets triggered— it’s when I refuse to go along with something, or hold him accountable to a prior agreement. For example, the thing that triggered the ‘kidnapping’ last year was me simply saying no to the last minute unscheduled sleepover he wanted. He even said so when we had that argument about it on the phone— “You wouldn’t let me have him, so I had to take him.” I don’t think that fear will ever completely leave me, to be honest.
Your best hope is that he will tire of being daddy and start to cancel more often. I expect that to start happening once he realizes he can't get your goat. This is not a guy who is really interested in being a parent. Give it time.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this all pans out. Aside from those challenges, it's been a positive change so far.
This morning I explained to S3 that he's staying at his dad's house tonight. He got all gloomy and said he didn't want to go. Concerned that something was wrong, I asked why he felt that way. He said "because Dad is a rude man who does stinky farts and doesn't say excuse me." I just about died trying to hold in my laughter!
Before he leaves for each visit, he has been talking through the steps of what happens over there, eg. "After Dad picks me up from daycare, I'm going to watch Star Wars, eat dinner, have a bath, go to sleep, then come back home for cuddles and kisses with you." I'm glad he's able to talk it through and understand the process and reassure himself.
Last week, X had S3 for a sleepover and asked if he could drop him off half an hour early in the morning. I said yes and got up early to shower and make sure I was ready at 7:30am so I could take S3 to ballet class at 8:30. He didn’t arrive until 7:50 with no notice given.
When I offered a possible makeup date for his forfeited time due to Mother’s Day, X said he wasn’t interested and could he move the sleepover to his own birthday weekend in September. We already have provision for S3 to spend time with the birthday parent in our agreement.
Today, I took S3 to the hospital for a suspected broken collarbone (fortunately just a neck sprain). When I informed X, he sent back a rambling message that he wouldn’t take S3 on any adventures and would just snuggle and feed him custard, and was I cool with that? I just said OK.
Then when I picked him up after his visitation dinner tonight, he was unbathed, teeth unbrushed, dressed in clean pyjamas but dirty socks and shoes. He said they were too busy watching TV to have a bath. And there was no custard, only burgers and chocolate.
None of the things you describe here are anything but minor annoyances. Honestly, if these were the worst things he ever did, you’d be quite thrilled.
If you don’t let go of all this little stuff it’ll drive you crazy. Even loving dads in intact marriages do things differently than their wives, and prioritize different things. Yes, it’s annoying for you to be the only adult in the room, and I believe your ex is a sociopath - but none of THESE things are important. Let go of your expectations and your need for control over these little things. Save it for the stuff that really matters.
PS - I suspect what bothers you the most is his rambling letter and his attempt to make himself sound like the doting father. Yes, barf. But better than some alternatives.
Yes, for sure! None of this garnered a response from me IRL. Just adding it to the record here. I was glad for the rambling message knowing that S3 would be taking it easy at his dad's house.
Today is two years since D-Day. X dropped the bomb that night and moved out three days later and never came back. Talk about a whirlwind! I’m really proud of how I’ve handled everything, for trusting my instincts, and discovering my core of ironclad principles, for demanding respect, and most importantly, demonstrating all of this to my son. In the immediate aftermath, I worked full-time, travelling two hours a day to and from the office, while raising a one year old on my own, negotiating a half million dollar divorce, and dealing with PTSD and ongoing narc abuse in counselling.
I am so thankful every day that he is gone. He doesn’t seem to have gotten the message that two years has passed because he continues to try to triangulate with me. He lives with OW and just informed me gleefully they are going on a two week holiday in July so he can’t look after S3. Cool, have fun, see ya (I said in my head, didn’t respond IRL). I kind of hope they get engaged because I feel so much better about having a third party present when S3 goes there.
He keeps trying all the tricks in the book to get me to engage via the only tool he has in the box - our son. He stopped paying child support, so I arranged for CSA to collect. He refused to hand over S3 unless I came to the front door, even though the court order says kerbside pickup and we’d been doing that successfully for a few weeks, so now I knock and return to the car to wait. He flouts the court order in some way at every changeover and I swear he sits in the car watching for my reaction. I feel like asking “why are you so obsessed with me?” LOL. Finding the humour, and not reacting, really helps handle what is going to be a long, hard slog of sharing a child with an NPD individual.
Today is also the first full weekend that S3 is spending with his dad. He pulled me aside before he left and said with a tremble in his voice “I don’t want to go with my dad”. He hid behind me when his dad came to the door, and refused to go to him for a cuddle. X told me he was going to drop him off at his parents for the night, which seems to defeat the purpose of spending the weekend, but whatever. S3 was brave and off he went calling out “love you, mama”. So now I’m off for brunch and a massage!
I don’t envision there being much more to update in my journey, so thanks to all who have read or commented or ever just held space for me in your thoughts. I will be holding space for you all!
You need to join us in the Surviving the Big D forum!
So sorry you have to deal with the ex’s weirdness. I’m with you on hoping he marries OW. Safer for your son. I imagine ex is driven crazy by the fact that you didn’t curl up and die! You are so much better off without him.
