I am not detached, Pack19 part4

[Pack_19]

Hi Sandi, all!

I am having a terrible Morning thinking about the past and how sad it is that we are living separate lives after all we have achieved for our children. There are some comments from Steve and Sandi I have in my head today.

This

- Do not start R talks. (This includes about her infidelity)
- GAL (Those that struggle the most do GAL the worst)
- Continue to work on self-improvements. (Are you in IC? What books are you reading? How are you trying to become the best Pack_19 possible?)
- Detach! You need to be at a place where hearing about her infidelity has no impact on you at all. The fact that it has impacted you means you are still overly attached.
- Doing nothing IS doing something. (Do not give into the illusion of action.)"

The idea I have is to take these statements and refocus them from the point of view of a person who is moving on. I tried my best and despite being a terrible DBer and abusing the 37 rules over and over I still think W should have no doubt our family and M were priority number 1 in my life and I was ready to put on the hard work to make them better than before.

I also think about the time Sandi you told me I need to put my feelings aside when dealing with this kind of WW because otherwise I am going to lose myself. When I am ready to bring up divorce in April having collected all proof of my current financial situation and issues (my salary will drop then and L has recommended me I wait until then to change things) I am sure she will think I am a terrible monster who is keeping his money for himself to buy that car he was always talking about... but I am going to do it. As I said above, I am worth more than a safety net, and this safety net is broken today .

IC session went great, I was told it is fine to have this step back and grieve but I was also told I have not accepted W's decision and I need to work on doing the ultimate act of love for her. Giving her what she wants and divorcing her, for my and her own sake. IC literally told me to be the one to step down from the ring, to stop the fight and give up, there is nothing I can change. I hope you are happy to hear it resonates with all you have kept telling me. Now is Pack's turn to make it happen. I am feeling like a failure as a man and yet I know out of this hell I will come a confident, attractive and irresistible man. That is how I want to align my work on myself. Make me the man only a fool would leave. For that, updated PIES.

P - get back my competitive spirit, wanting to be the best at work and sports. Keep up the running, tennis and biking. Dress with style and my unique touch and gain that muscle mass I need.
I - Get the promo to L6 this year, get a new certification at work and continue to read about NMMNG, attractiveness, being a strong man
E - Continue to work on my empathy and communication skills. Practice with ANYONE, talk to my grandma and S7. Being a rock for my children now that they need it the most.
S - Stay positive, focus all my strength in inner changes, dropping all pursue and truly accepting W wants a D and I should deliver one even if it destroys every cell in my body. Understand I cannot control my way out of here and work for a better future.

Whether it's true or not, there is nothing you can do about it now. I mean, if she believes you didn't talk to her while living together, what kind of sense would it make for her to expect it while on the verge of D?

What I need to do is use that frustration to change my defects but reflect them on others right now. Learn to communicate better, never let money affect my vision of life, work on empathy and emotional connection (making people feel good things when interacting with me). In other words, be a shining sun with anyone but WW. Then permanently remain that sun, for my own sake. I have tried to communicate with her, God knows, but it is not the time and place for that.

Oh, excuse me? Does she not realize she is in no position to tell you how to parent the kids on your time, just as she doesn't want you to criticize her as a mother? She no longer holds authority over you or your life. That's what divorce does......it sets you free. How dare her!

I guess this comes with the entire manipulation, blaming pack. I need to get stronger in front of these comments. Ahe also told me to be clever and say positive things to S7 when he does not want to call her in the evenings she is with me, apparently she does so. She is all love to me you see... Jokes aside, I no longer know what is true or a lie and what to do or not when these lessons about dealing with kids, hiding ugly truth from them and having an amicable divorce come from here.

It's about vengeance.

That is very sad, I have tried it in the past and it never makes you happy. I will never understand how our M has come to represent something so negative to her. Best to let go, I can still save myself and become a new Pack.

I want you to hear me carefully. You desire the W and family you once had. Your W has changed. She's not the same person. If all of you lived together again, it would be a different family, b/c both adults have changed and the boys are older. So, honestly, there is no getting the past back. You can't turn back the clock and correct the mistakes that were made five years ago. I think you truly want a chance to make up for the past, b/c she has pounded into your head that you failed. If she moved back today, it would not be a happy occasion, b/c she has no loving feelings for you. Why on earth would you want to live out your life with someone who doesn't love you?

I am going to read this very paragraph many times. Why on earth would I want that? I dont know, I guess I am not thinking clearly as my mind is still processing all the pain and changes I have been through over the last year and a half. In some things I failed, in others I did not, what still shocks me is how much she values more those I failed on over those I nailed as a father and man.

I agree!

I need to nail this into my head everyday. The safety net is gone, I am worth a lot and I want to change to have an amazing life at some point.

Pack, listen to me. You can only do your part. She has to do her part, and she refuses. She cuts you down and you take it to mean you need to work harder to get her. No! It means your W is not a nice person. She manipulates you, and blames you. She takes no responsibility for her part. Until that changes, I don't believe there is hope for a future together with her. She is not willing to let go of the past and forgive. Well, so be it. That's her choice to live with that much resentment in her heart, but if I were you, I'd stop holding on to a dream. How could you be happy with a the kind of woman she has become? You've done all the changing. She's done no changing. She wants to hold the past over your head. That's the reality.

I guess all of you from outside see it clearly how she is never going to change and I continue to idealize the woman I married to the point that there has always been a voice in my head whispering (she will realize, she will eventually see the truth). My sister thinks W is all about a nice facade and is rotten inside and she keeps telling me I need to see this at some point. I think she is very radical but it is true that after all she has done to me, I have not lost my W, I have lost a woman I used to live with. If she really felt like my wife, we would have made it work, it would not be 18 months into this hell and still the same rejection and hatred.

Yes, you need to grieve. When we lose something precious to us, it hurts very deeply. You don't get through the grief in a few days and then it's all done. It comes in stages. You'll have better days, and then something will trigger your sorrow again. But here's the thing, Pack. If you had let go a year ago, you would be through the worst part by now and having a new outlook for your Paco's life. You have cried a lot of tears, but I don't think they were tears of grief. I hope you will let go and grieve for what the M could have been, and accept the reality.

Let's see if I can explain myself. When I cry I feel as if we had thrown to the floor years of work together towards a better place to be, a better career, traveling together, the parenting of our children, the love and desire to be together we once felt... I remember one day in Munich as all was ending, W was getting dressed and I came behind her wanting to hug, kiss her, and pull her down onto the bed. Not in a sexual way, just kissing. She took my hands of her and told me to stop. My marriage was falling to pieces and all I wanted to do was get a better job to work on the field I dreamed of, what an absolute emotionally useless man. Sorry but I really think this, many people have told me I lack emotional intelligence and I dont know how to exercise that.

I know you have suffered so much, and I could paint a beautiful picture just to keep you hanging on to false hope. But that's not the type person I am. I hope you'll resign yourself to the fact if the two of you ever get back together, it will be b/c she changes and she chases you down to tell you how sorry she is for hurting you and begs you to give her another chance. I don't want to see you giving up the life you could have b/c you're waiting around in hopes this will happen. I don't think she will. She comes out as the loser. She made this choice. You've done all you could to save the M, but she won't have it. Does that mean you have to work harder, make more changes? NO! It means it's over and there's nothing more you can do.

This is never going to happen Sandi, I wish, but she will not change. I guess it is easier to try luck with new affairs and enjoy the differences they will have wrt me. I have mixed feelings, it feels like freedom to be happy again but it also feels like I have lost the most important battle of my entire life and to a terrible enemy. Maybe if I had done the rules correctly and listened to you better, perhaps now from this letting go point of view I can implement them properly. If ever she comes begging, then I will worry about it but for now I need to make some changes to my life and my attitude towards WW. I am a great father and man, not a safety net or a poor husband.

Thanks a lot for your help and comments, it means the world to me.
Please keep posting, I am having a very low moment with the entire OM + giving up + D in my head.
(( hugs))
Pack

[LH19]

Pacman,

You have given all your power away and you could never be happy in a relationship where you have no power. You can't see it but this isn't about your W. It's about your perception that you can only be happy in an intact family. This belief is most likely caused the downfall of your marriage. You were trying to protect it so much your W likely felt trapped and suffocated. That's what happens when you hold on to something too tight.

In life you need to adapt, improvise and over come. You have to learn to be happy in a split family. You have to be able to walk away things that don't work for you. I am pretty sure your W having a BF is not part of your core values. That's what you need to work on. Until you can have healthy boundaries you will always be a prisoner in any relationship.

Read Scotty Bs thread. You guys are very similar. You both think it's about your Ws but in reality it's the mythical symbol a W represents to the two of you. Currently it is not reality and likely never will and that is why you both suffer immensely.

[SteveLW]

Pack, when BD happened for me I was about to turn 49 years old. I got married when I was 29. All through my 20s I dated lots of different girls (even with the aura of a long-term on-again, off-again relationship with a woman that jerked me around for years).

I point that out to say that perspective on things changes a lot when you're 49 vs. 29. You are still so young and there are so many other people out there, that it pains me to see you so all in on this woman that seems doggedly determine to leave you. I am sure you've heard the old saying that "we want what we can't have" (which is a truth underlying why I allowed the woman mentioned above to jerk me around for so long). And I think that truth sometimes is compounded by the fact that now there is an OM. Biologically we turn into a rutting buck when another buck starts to move in on our doe. That competitive fire comes out in us. "Oh no you dint!" attitude bubbles up and we start comparing ourselves to the "other buck" to try compete with them. I suspect you've got a little bit of that going on. It was difficult enough when you thought she was just walking away out of unhappiness, but when another buck show up your "fight" instinct kicks in.

I guess what I am trying to ask is that is the desire to fight stronger than the desire to hold fast to a boundary? If I had asked you 3 years ago "What would you do if your W cheated on you?" what would your answer be? Would you have said that you'd have walked? Would that have been a deal-breaker? If so, what is different now?

And yes, from her perspective she likely doesn't see it as cheating. Cheater never do. Cheaters do all kind of mental gymnastics to convince themselves (and by extension, others) that the marriage was already over by time the cheating took place. It also speaks to the different the LBS and WAS views separation. LBSs see separation as a necessary step towards R. WASs see separation a step towards D. You probably didn't see separation on 10/27/19 the same way she saw it. You thought "some distance will let me detach easier (it rarely does) and that will help me bust my D." She saw it as a chance to be free and do whatever she wanted (yes, that includes dating and sleeping with other men).

So Pack the question I have for you is what are you trying so save here? You are young, have 67% of your life ahead of you, and breaking the bound you still feel towards her will only make you stronger, and let you move on. Look at the others here whose sitches have ended in D, they are so much better off today than they were on BD, and the weeks/months that followed. I like the PIES approach you laid out. Great way to look at your path ahead. But my question for you above still stands. Keep PIES in sight, but what are you planning to do to move on (and forward) with YOUR life?

[sandi2]

I am feeling like a failure as a man and yet I know out of this hell I will come a confident, attractive and irresistible man.

Do you? Do you really believe you'll come out of this a confident, attractive and irresistible man? Feeling like a failure as a man is at the core of Paco not being able to let go of the M. In your initial thread you spoke of your family's values and traditions, which included how they measured a successful marriage/family. Like most every man I know, having a job that provides the income for the family is at the top of their priority list. That's one of the main responsibilities of a man with a family!!! But your WW hits you where she knows it will hurt the most........and you believe you are a failure as a man. Stop believing lies.

I've talked to you about this until I'm blue in the face, but it does no good if you choose to believe you have failed as a man. I can't change your thoughts, so if you are so determined to see yourself as a failure of a man .......then I can't change you. In spite of the work you've done, you are currently your own worst enemy. You are worse on yourself than your WW has been........which is terrible. You have measured your worth as a man, based on your W's feelings harsh feelings. I pray that one day you'll understand your self worth comes from within Paco. Yes, set goals, raise your standards or whatever it takes to grow as a person.........but what good does it do if you can't respect yourself? You need to stop beating yourself up and learn to forgive your past mistakes. Let it go, and start liking the man you've become. Your sadness will never go away if you can't forgive yourself. You were doing what you had been taught was the job of a H. You were a good man, and bad things happen to good people.......so stop with the self punishment and allow yourself to be happy. There's one person holding you back, and his name is Paco.

I am sure she will think I am a terrible monster who is keeping his money for himself to buy that car he was always talking about... but I am going to do it. As I said above, I am worth more than a safety net, and this safety net is broken today .

Let me tell you what I think it is a sign of detachment. When her thoughts and feelings about you become irrelevant. You make decisions based on your integrity and moral/spiritual principles, and not on what your W may think about it.

Stay positive, focus all my strength in inner changes, dropping all pursue and truly accepting W wants a D and I should deliver one even if it destroys every cell in my body. Understand I cannot control my way out of here and work for a better future.

The first sentence sounds contradictive. Are you staying positive a divorce will destroy every cell in your body? I don't think this is the type of positive thinking you should have. A divorce will destroy you.......only if you choose to let it destroy you. You have to change how you look at this, Pack. Not that you welcome or enjoy a divorce, but it doesn't have to destroy every cell in your body! That is YOU having that mindset. Only you can stop having that mindset. How can you have a positive outlook when your inner thoughts are saying every cell of your body will be destroyed?

I guess all of you from outside see it clearly how she is never going to change and I continue to idealize the woman I married to the point that there has always been a voice in my head whispering (she will realize, she will eventually see the truth). My sister thinks W is all about a nice facade and is rotten inside and she keeps telling me I need to see this at some point.

Well, she's your sister, so she may feel anger toward your W for the pain she's caused. I will say this, however, that women can read other women. Men can read other men. In other words, your sister wasn't blinded by love and could see through your W. Your sister doesn't have any illusions of a fairy tale R in the future with this W.

Pack, I'm so sorry you are having a painful day. I wish I could make it go away and fill it with pure joy. By your words, you are trying to see your worth a little more.......and I believe when you get things in proper perspective, your life will take off on a glorious ride. This will pass, and one day you will wonder why it took you so long. (((hugs)))

[Pack_19]

Pacman,

You have given all your power away and you could never be happy in a relationship where you have no power. You can't see it but this isn't about your W. It's about your perception that you can only be happy in an intact family. This belief is most likely caused the downfall of your marriage. You were trying to protect it so much your W likely felt trapped and suffocated. That's what happens when you hold on to something too tight.

In life you need to adapt, improvise and over come. You have to learn to be happy in a split family. You have to be able to walk away things that don't work for you. I am pretty sure your W having a BF is not part of your core values. That's what you need to work on. Until you can have healthy boundaries you will always be a prisoner in any relationship.

Hi LH!
I hope you are doing great! I do think I was finally doing a good job on releasing pressure and setting up my boundaries when we interact. Just yesterday she told me I was a poor father in front of S7 because when I pick him up from her place I let him sit at the front row in my car. She threatened me to take a picture and send it to my L and eventually S7 sat behind but I told her he is safe as long as I use a base sit and he wears the seat belt. Of course she used the opportunity to shout that we are going to D when I told her not to interfere in my role as a father and then she left, probably to see OM, I dont care it was just sad.

Yes I was trying to protect it a lot but because I valued it a lot and I always believed it was worth the best fight in my life. Turns out the fight was against W. I already got over my dream of working in the F1 when I could and it has not affected me negatively, I am sure eventually I will reach the same point about my M.

No, this behavior is out of my boundaries, this is why I contacted L to initiate D but she suggested I wait until April when there will be more reasons to change the D agreement. I never thought she would do this while not D, I guess it is just a paper and as Sandi well said, we are living separate lives since over a year.

[Pack_19]

Pack, when BD happened for me I was about to turn 49 years old. I got married when I was 29. All through my 20s I dated lots of different girls (even with the aura of a long-term on-again, off-again relationship with a woman that jerked me around for years).

I point that out to say that perspective on things changes a lot when you're 49 vs. 29. You are still so young and there are so many other people out there, that it pains me to see you so all in on this woman that seems doggedly determine to leave you. I am sure you've heard the old saying that "we want what we can't have" (which is a truth underlying why I allowed the woman mentioned above to jerk me around for so long). And I think that truth sometimes is compounded by the fact that now there is an OM. Biologically we turn into a rutting buck when another buck starts to move in on our doe. That competitive fire comes out in us. "Oh no you dint!" attitude bubbles up and we start comparing ourselves to the "other buck" to try compete with them. I suspect you've got a little bit of that going on. It was difficult enough when you thought she was just walking away out of unhappiness, but when another buck show up your "fight" instinct kicks in.

I guess what I am trying to ask is that is the desire to fight stronger than the desire to hold fast to a boundary? If I had asked you 3 years ago "What would you do if your W cheated on you?" what would your answer be? Would you have said that you'd have walked? Would that have been a deal-breaker? If so, what is different now?

And yes, from her perspective she likely doesn't see it as cheating. Cheater never do. Cheaters do all kind of mental gymnastics to convince themselves (and by extension, others) that the marriage was already over by time the cheating took place. It also speaks to the different the LBS and WAS views separation. LBSs see separation as a necessary step towards R. WASs see separation a step towards D. You probably didn't see separation on 10/27/19 the same way she saw it. You thought "some distance will let me detach easier (it rarely does) and that will help me bust my D." She saw it as a chance to be free and do whatever she wanted (yes, that includes dating and sleeping with other men).

So Pack the question I have for you is what are you trying so save here? You are young, have 67% of your life ahead of you, and breaking the bound you still feel towards her will only make you stronger, and let you move on. Look at the others here whose sitches have ended in D, they are so much better off today than they were on BD, and the weeks/months that followed. I like the PIES approach you laid out. Great way to look at your path ahead. But my question for you above still stands. Keep PIES in sight, but what are you planning to do to move on (and forward) with YOUR life?

Wow Steve, thanks for the words. If you asked me three years ago I would have said I would walk away and never look back again. I dont have confirmation from W, I will never have, she claims I am not entitled to any explanation and I guess this resonates a lot with the description you have given on how she and myself perceived the separation as it began. Still many people have seen them so I lean towards the idea it is true and I need to move on and be there for my kids.

I am not comparing myself with OM, I know my worth trust me, there are not so many 30 year old men in Seville with my career, healthy life style and sense of responsibility. What you said about having what I cannot have is very painful, not for you to say, but because it links back to when W used to tell me she felt like my doll I never played with and now wanted because I could not have it. You cannot imagine how much it hurt to hear that comparison and think she had such a cruel perception on what I thought and felt about her. I dont know anymore, maybe you both are right and I am trying to prove to myself I can attract her again when it is not about that. I have already won at attracting back my friends (who tell me this every chance we have to meet) and my children. For me that is a victory.

I have been on a couple of dates, I can feel the sense of many other women being out there for me. I can feel you all guys are telling me to see reality and move on. There is a question I have to ask as it is killing me. Do you think I blew this up because of how incompetent a DBer I have been? Please be honest with me. As long as I can breathe, I can change and now I am going to put all y efforts in NC and doing my PIES for myself, as a new man.

Thanks for your words. Hugs! Pack

[LH19]

There is a question I have to ask as it is killing me. Do you think I blew this up because of how incompetent a DBer I have been? Please be honest with me. As long as I can breathe, I can change and now I am going to put all y efforts in NC and doing my PIES for myself, as a new man.

Absolutely not! You are a bad dber but just about all of us were in the beginning. The reality is it is very unlikely to stop the D by the time you get here. Can you reconcile in the future? Absolutely! Steve has posted that his studies show that 90% will eventually want to recon. It may take 35 years but there is a chance for sure.

[SteveLW]

Do you think I blew this up because of how incompetent a DBer I have been? Please be honest with me.

I think this question has a flaw in it. You are asking this question with the false notion that you ever had any control over your sitch. This is a common struggle for LBSs. Pack, you could have DB'd perfectly from minute 1, with zero mistakes (almost humanly impossible) and still ended up where you are. In these sitches the WAS has all of control, and that is a difficult thing to understand. It takes two committed and dedicated to making a MR work. It only takes on to make a D.

Now certainly there are things you can do, and behavior that will worsen your sitch. But Pack, I don't remember anything so egregious that we can point to and say "You blew it up!" And even when mistakes blow things up, they tend to be temporary blow ups and things go back to the status quo. Again, nobody DBs perfectly. You've mentioned going on dates, yet you still have an idealistic belief in wanting to keep your family intact. How do you square those two things? But yet you made the decision to date even though you feel that way. This is not a chastisement, as it is your sitch and you can do whatever you want to do. But it is important for our actions to align with what we want!

Think about it this way, if you were planning on marrying your W, and the marriage was scheduled, everything booked, would you date others? And while it isn't exactly and apples-to-apples comparison, deep down it is similar. "I want to be married and committed to this person.......but I am going to date other people."

Two things moving forward: Stick to your principles. And be true to yourself regarding your motivations. And then weigh all decisions and actions against those two things. For instance, if you want to be in a committed, loving marriage with your WAW, then why are you dating? And if you are just dating to "get her attention" then are you doing it for the right reason? See?

So I am sure there have been things you've done and said that have hurt your sitch. We all did. No one is perfect. And you cannot change past mistakes. The best statement you made was: "As long as I can breathe, I can change" SO TRUE! So focus on that regardless of what your WAS does.

[Pack_19]

Do you? Do you really believe you'll come out of this a confident, attractive and irresistible man? Feeling like a failure as a man is at the core of Paco not being able to let go of the M. In your initial thread you spoke of your family's values and traditions, which included how they measured a successful marriage/family. Like most every man I know, having a job that provides the income for the family is at the top of their priority list. That's one of the main responsibilities of a man with a family!!! But your WW hits you where she knows it will hurt the most........and you believe you are a failure as a man. Stop believing lies.

Hi Sandi, there are so many things in my head about my mistakes now I need to go one by one and destroy them. Ideas about being selfish, about spending too much time at work, about not been emotionally intelligent, not performing sexually, not being able to communicate and giving money too much importance. There is a list for me to shatter to pieces, it has been very hard to do this in the presence of a W who always found a new reason to tell me I was the same and she could not be happy with me. When on Sunday she addressed me as having insulted her for a year it is as if it had snapped on my head (there will always be an excuse so that I am a monster and she is entitled to leave me and be happy). Yesterday, I was a poor father, tomorrow I might be selfish man or unable to control my jealousy. Yes I had some issues, but nowhere near what she claims and I am on a quest to erase them all. Sandi, as I told you yesterday, I am worth more than a second option or a safety net. As you said, I dont think she will eve chase me and do the work needed to R. God knows I gave it my best and I meant it when I promised her to love her and grow a family together. She knows this, I can continue my life in peace.

You were a good man, and bad things happen to good people.......so stop with the self punishment and allow yourself to be happy. There's one person holding you back, and his name is Paco.

I will do this Sandi, I have a great job and 2 fantastic sons who adore me. W does not have the power to change me as a man or my future.

Let me tell you what I think it is a sign of detachment. When her thoughts and feelings about you become irrelevant. You make decisions based on your integrity and moral/spiritual principles, and not on what your W may think about it.

Getting there, I did not let her comment affect me for a second yesterday. I am a great father and my son loves my car and he gets to sit in the front row with all safety needed. Also he gets to choose the music and W has nothing to say there.

The first sentence sounds contradictive. Are you staying positive a divorce will destroy every cell in your body? I don't think this is the type of positive thinking you should have. A divorce will destroy you.......only if you choose to let it destroy you. You have to change how you look at this, Pack. Not that you welcome or enjoy a divorce, but it doesn't have to destroy every cell in your body! That is YOU having that mindset. Only you can stop having that mindset. How can you have a positive outlook when your inner thoughts are saying every cell of your body will be destroyed?

I know myself and I know this will haunt me in my future. This having being able to get a second chance, even if it did not depend on me. This is why I said it will be painful. Also it will affect my children and I cannot protect them against it. My mindset is changed Sandi, I was a boy who made mistakes but out of this D I will come an attractive and strong man.

Well, she's your sister, so she may feel anger toward your W for the pain she's caused. I will say this, however, that women can read other women. Men can read other men. In other words, your sister wasn't blinded by love and could see through your W. Your sister doesn't have any illusions of a fairy tale R in the future with this W.

She told me the other day she was never fond of W but she always thought I could do much better, so she is shocked by how much this is hurting me. Yes, I had the illusion she would change but all the messages I receive is that W is very focused on her new life without me and from her side all are cold messages like "I hope we can be as cordial as possible". It is disgusting. I am going to use all of this to fuel my rebirth. I am going to get the car and motorbike I always wanted and move back to Madrid the weeks I dont have the children, I will not stay here seeing her rebuild her life as if I had been a mistake in her past.

Pack, I'm so sorry you are having a painful day. I wish I could make it go away and fill it with pure joy. By your words, you are trying to see your worth a little more.......and I believe when you get things in proper perspective, your life will take off on a glorious ride. This will pass, and one day you will wonder why it took you so long. (((hugs)))

I know Sandi, deep inside my head I know I have all the ingredients to make me the happiest man and to live a great life. You have seen many WWs and their behavior, you have seen both Ds and Rs. Why is she so vindictive and cold after a year and a half? Why does she always come up with a new excuse to bring me down and tell me I have not changed and why does she pride herself so much on her newly found life where I am not even a shade? Perhaps she really is happier now and I should be happy for her, at the end of the day that is what you do when you love a person.

Yes I am having a bad week, I had great plans for our M and my family and the way she broke with all of them and blamed me for everything was something I never expected. I know now next time a woman tells me to do something otherwise she will go and sleep with the first man outside I will tell her "yes, goodbye and use protection!", but when this all started I could never imagine she would get to this point. The same way I could never imagine her restarting her life with OM without having had the chance to discuss our communication issues and the tough conditions we had at home in Germany. I guess it is her choice to not have this conversations and for me to have them with myself.

I also have some questions regarding my thoughts about the past. I value a lot all we have lived in the UK and Germany, the challenges we overcame and the experiences we shared. I cannot get them out of my head and they are hurting me because they make me want to go back to that family and that is simply not possible. What can I do to deal with them better?

I am not a safety net, I am not a poor husband or emotionally deficient, I am a great man and father, I have values and goals in my life and I work hard to reach those goals. No woman will ever come in between either these goals or my perception of myself as a man. I am strong, I am loving, I am attractive, I am mature, I am fun and I am the heck of a father!

I came here desperate wanting to save my M, I have met amazing people and learnt I have to save myself and my integrity. I also learnt to experience pain without reacting to it and the sad truth that even if W loved me more than anything, she could still choose to leave me. I need a life without her and I can promise you all is going to be a great life!

Thank you all for your comments.

((hugs)) Pack

[Pack_19]

Absolutely not! You are a bad dber but just about all of us were in the beginning. The reality is it is very unlikely to stop the D by the time you get here. Can you reconcile in the future? Absolutely! Steve has posted that his studies show that 90% will eventually want to recon. It may take 35 years but there is a chance for sure.

I complain a lot about the "give me now" society and pride myself of being a great long term seeker and yet I want to R now and under the perfect circumstances. I am forcing myself out of pride and self esteem to close the door, if there is OM it should be me who would never want to R. But I love the version of her I married, this means if she ever comes begging I will be in a weak spot. Your post and the one from Steve have made me think a lot.

What are my core values?
Why I let actions from my W influence those values?
I am no longer a weak man, I have to think about these questions carefully.

Steve,

I think this question has a flaw in it. You are asking this question with the false notion that you ever had any control over your sitch. This is a common struggle for LBSs. Pack, you could have DB'd perfectly from minute 1, with zero mistakes (almost humanly impossible) and still ended up where you are. In these sitches the WAS has all of control, and that is a difficult thing to understand. It takes two committed and dedicated to making a MR work. It only takes on to make a D.

So true. I should be proud of having learnt about healthy relationships, about PIES, about my Mr nice guy issues, about sexual kung-fu, about better communication and detachment. I think my goal now is to focus on me, my future and breaking that emotional rope that tights me to W.

Now certainly there are things you can do, and behavior that will worsen your sitch. But Pack, I don't remember anything so egregious that we can point to and say "You blew it up!" And even when mistakes blow things up, they tend to be temporary blow ups and things go back to the status quo. Again, nobody DBs perfectly. You've mentioned going on dates, yet you still have an idealistic belief in wanting to keep your family intact. How do you square those two things? But yet you made the decision to date even though you feel that way. This is not a chastisement, as it is your sitch and you can do whatever you want to do. But it is important for our actions to align with what we want!

Think about it this way, if you were planning on marrying your W, and the marriage was scheduled, everything booked, would you date others? And while it isn't exactly and apples-to-apples comparison, deep down it is similar. "I want to be married and committed to this person.......but I am going to date other people."

Two things moving forward: Stick to your principles. And be true to yourself regarding your motivations. And then weigh all decisions and actions against those two things. For instance, if you want to be in a committed, loving marriage with your WAW, then why are you dating? And if you are just dating to "get her attention" then are you doing it for the right reason? See?

So I am sure there have been things you've done and said that have hurt your sitch. We all did. No one is perfect. And you cannot change past mistakes. The best statement you made was: "As long as I can breathe, I can change" SO TRUE! So focus on that regardless of what your WAS does.

You hit me hard there Steve. Yes I never go out with my heart, maybe I am doing to catch her attention or as revenge because I image W being with OM or going out on dates and I want the same fun for me. Truth is I dont find that fun, fun now for me is driving, the bike, smashing my running records, being with my friends or playing with my son at home. I also felt like it was time to have sex again so I turned to tinder in search of that.

I also have a lot of pressure from the people who love me to move on, they see W building a new life, seeing OM and they want me to be able to move on a "meet someone better". I am not trying to justify myself, my core values ask me to continue to work on myself, my future, the kids and to change the dynamics of the R with W. However, if she is seeing OM, how can I do that? Steve, I will look weak, clingy and stupid, wont I?
Knowing this...

I am not a safety net, I am not a poor husband or emotionally deficient, I am a great man and father, I have values and goals in my life and I work hard to reach those goals. No woman will ever come in between either these goals or my perception of myself as a man. I am strong, I am loving, I am attractive, I am mature, I am fun and I am the heck of a father!

and the fact that I maintain the promise I made to my W the day we married. But also knowing she has told me she is certain she wants a D and she will never come back because she cannot be happy with me. You have a great sense of integrity and values, Steve, I truly admire you even if for me you are only a name now. What would you do? Please help me, as much as you feel you can /want. I think I am letting all that is happen lose me in a sea of fear and doubt.

Thank you! ((hugs)) Pack