As I read through the forums on Divorce Busting, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share.
My advise, commit to personal growth. What you judge in others, you condemn in yourself. Take all the focus off of your spouse and address your own issues. How hard is it to change your own behavior? Now think how hard (almost impossible) to change someone else.
If you have kids, commit to being the best parent ever. Frequent and equal contact with both parents is important. You are responsible for your relationship with your kids. Let your spouse be responsible for their relationship with the kids. Learn new ways of parenting. Lots of great books out there. Most of the relationship skills dealing with spouse will also help in parenting.
Set goals for the future and keep taking steps to get there. Do this in all areas (SPIES - Social, Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual.) Get in alignment (Beliefs, Thoughts, Body Language, Tones, Words, Actions) with your core values.
Try new ways of interacting. Read about boundaries and learn how to set and enforce them. Be in the present. Let go of the past and do not fear the future. Learn ways of being more attractive, especially in your behavior. Learn ways of being seductive (indirectly attracting). This is an extremely important set of skills to understand.
The best way to respond to a particular event? Initially, the best action to take is no action. Do your homework here. Do not react emotionally. Stay neutral. Seek wise council here. Evaluate all the different options and the possible outcomes of each. Challenge your current beliefs. Make a choice and live with the consequences, good or bad. Things are predictable. Read and read and read. Get mentally ahead of your spouse in the whole process ASAP, they are ahead right now.
As far as your spouse, until you have enough info to prove this wrong, assume there is another person (Hint: This is your first 180). Do not reveal anything about what you know and how you found out. "We both know that is a lie." is a great way to deal with any deception.
I wish everyone well during these difficult times. Remember that everything will be OK no matter what the WAS chooses.
My typical posting style is very brief, and I can tell from things you have said to me and about me that that comes across to you as not supportive. So I'm going to try to use what feels to me like way too many words, because I think there is something important you are not seeing and that seeing it would be valuable to you.
You seem to have learned a lot about yourself and what you need to feel loved. That's important, and that can be hard work. But I don't see you putting yourself in your wife's shoes and looking at it from her perspective. You talk about what *you* needed when you came home from a 5-day business trip and how you were hurt by her rejecting your advances. What do you think your return felt like from her perspective? You said her love language is gifts of service. What would have felt loving to her in that moment?
I know business travel can be exhausting, but so can being the person staying home and taking care of the kids. The person traveling might have jet lag, but they probably also had someone cleaning their hotel room. They probably got to go out to eat at restaurants and choose from a variety of food options, none of which they had to cook or clean up after. Meanwhile, the person at home doesn't have jet lag or the hassles of travel, but also has to cook, clean, do laundry, and take care of kids. The level of effort varies depending on the ages and numbers and personalities of the kids, but even easy-going teenagers take energy and time. And toddlers are flat out exhausting. Did you try to meet her needs before you sought to get yours met?
Or let's take another situation. Your wife went to work when one of your kids went to college, right? What changes did you make the household and family responsibilities when she started earning money? Who cooked, cleaned, grocery shopped, kept track of the kids' schedules and needs, bought holiday presents, decorated the house, organized parties, made doctor appointments for kids, took the kids to the appointments, ditto for pets, etc., etc.? Are you familiar with the phrase "emotional labor"? If not, google it and think about how the emotional labor was divided in your marriage.
The core truth of Divorce Busting is that when one spouse changes their behavior, without waiting for their spouse to change first, the marriage can improve.
I know it's tempting to say, "but she (or he) isn't meeting my needs!" And that can be a true statement. And it's hurtful. But I know when I say, "yes, that's true, but what can I do to be a better spouse" my relationship improves and my spouse starts meeting my needs. When I focus on the ways in which he isn't meeting my needs and use that to justify not doing the things I know make him feel loved, then my marriage worsens, and my needs aren't met.
I honestly feel like this is the single most important thing to take away from DB. Meet your partner's needs, even if they aren't meeting yours. (Disclaimer: excluding abusive or toxic relationships, of course.)
Most likely, one of your spouses current needs is time and space away from you. Meet this need even if you do not understand or agree with it.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
If you're ever wondering about the accuracy or the validity of the advice you receive on here, let me tell you....the purpose of these boards is to learn from those who have experience what you are going through. In some instances you will learn the right course of action because of what has worked for some. A lot of the time, you will see what not to do because of someone here.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I had a call with my DB coach and he had a couple of things to point out - more life stuff than saving the marriage stuff, but I think the marriage is a good way to learn about life.
He said if I was generous, that's fine, and If I don't want to be fine, but don't be generous and then complain about it - that's not fine. I thought that was good feedback.
He said I need to forgive regularly and not to carry bitterness and resentment into MY days - because resentment only punishes me.
On our call I mentioned that I didn't give a carp about what she thought in regards to taking the kids on trips. He said that in regards to that the pendulum was swinging too far in the wrong direction. He said the perspective I need to have is to think "I care what you think, but I am going to do what I think is right." The key being not to surrender my agency.
He said that if I let bitterness and resentment take hold that will impact me and my future relationships.
He seemed to think I was doing a good job and mentioned that if there was ever a reconciliation, it wouldn't be reconciling the old relationship. He said it would be reconciling who I am becoming with who she is becoming.
He mentioned that in marriages sometime we sacrifice for love, but sometimes we sacrifice too much and that's what I had done. So I need to learn that lesson for the future.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
First I wanted to say that I've found the best posts on here are the ones that trigger my defensiveness. Thank you for nudging me out of my comfort zone.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
And it occurs to me that you are merely taking the steps laid out before you here, without really understanding fully the "whys" of what you are doing, or being asked to do.
And that is totally normal for the stage that you are in...
When I say that this is a "process" , I mean that you may not understand why LH wants you to do this, or Steve asks you to do that.
When I asked you the questions above, your answer last week will NOT be the same answer that you might give a few months from now.
Rarely in these situations, does an ultimatum work. Typically it will "push" the WAS out the door faster.
Usually with a WAS, nothing that you say or do will have an effect on them, yet everything that you say an do WILL have an effect on them. Make sense ? yeah, probably not.
I see guys come on here, and struggle with doing this or doing that. Trying to talk their way out of something that they acted their way into. Thinking that if they just apologize, then things will be all right, and they can just get back to life as they once knew it.
They think that magically, their situation is somewhat different than all of the rest of them here. Hell, I thought that too.
If I just explain a little harder, or one more apology, or if I just wash the dishes tonight, of take out the trash one more time.....then things will turn around for us...
It doesn't work that way.
I would always ask, what exactly are you apologizing for ?
To truly apologize, one has to be able to fully understand what they are apologizing for...
To what depths have your previous actions cut her??
How sharp were your words ???
How shallow were your actions ??
All of that ^^^^ is for YOU Dawg....
Nobody else gets to participate in the rebuilding of YOU....
No of that should be done for "her" , or the "marriage"....that is for you....
So, take some time, work on you...
Get lost in yourself.
Stop worrying about every little interaction that you have with her. Shine when it's time, heal when there is time, and understand that this thing is "bigger" than you, her , or the marriage right now....
Talk less Act more
She fired you from your job as her husband......treat it that way....
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, a time to reap that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to gain that which is to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time of love, and a time of hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
So....
What is YOUR plan for the holidays ????
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
You can't snap her out of the fog, but you CAN "keep the way home paved and smooth". What does that mean, well it means treat her with kindness and respect even when she doesn't do the same for you. It means let her go and go about your life while leaving the door open to a future with her.
Sometimes you'll hear folks here say to treat the WAS like you would a casual neighbor. You might chat with them but you're not going to share your innermost secrets, or spend hours and hours hanging out with them. You'll make some small talk and then excuse yourself to go do something else that is none of their business.
Don't shrug anything off. Listen and validate. "I hear you saying you feel I've been distant and ignoring you, I'm sorry I've made you feel this way, this is something I will work on." Giving her time and space doesn't mean shutting her out completely. It's fine to keep lines of communication open, and to be friendly and polite when you do talk. The whole "going dark" thing is really a last resort technique for people who are being abused by their WAS, or people that just cannot let go and detach. It's to save the LBS, not the M.
Again, don't turn it into an R talk, just listen and validate. "I hear you saying you don't feel I'm being vulnerable enough, I can understand why you would say that." Note that you're not AGREEING with her, you're merely acknowledging her feelings. Because even if you think her feelings are wrong or misplaced, they ARE her feelings and ALL feelings are valid to the person experiencing them.
"Ultimatums" are a terrible idea. First of all, they never go like the LBS hopes they will. Second of all, the LBS rarely goes through with the threat, so it makes them look even more wimpy and indecisive. You may THINK you are fine with option 2, but I think if you're honest with yourself what you are hoping is that she'll be so afraid of option 2 that she will agree to option 1. But she WILL NOT! She's more likely to go on a tirade and tell you what a controlling, manipulative jerk you are and that she will never ever in a zillion years want to be with you again. So then what do you do? You either do nothing which makes you look powerless, or you push S through yourself which is YOU doing all the work for HER. It's a lose-lose situation for you. What you SHOULD do is.... yeah this will come as no surprise... DETACH! Leave her alone! Give her time and space. Let HER make the decisions about the R. And if she doesn't make any decisions? MORE time and space!
Always remember this- you can't NICE her back.... and you can't MEAN her back.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
So my question then is how do I let her know that some of the things we previously agreed to (family dinners) are no longer on the table if she's on dating sites?
Originally Posted by LH19
W what we originally agreed to is no longer working for me.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
This is just another WAS excuse for not wanting to get back together. "We'll never be able to fix this because you don't do A, B, C and D". It's WAS script, moving targets. You do A, B, C and D and then suddenly it's E, F, G and H that are deal-killers for her.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
After around 10 months he did a very fast turnaround. ... Now, I firmly believe you have to let them go before they come back.
I had conditions, but I accepted him back. He had to end things with OW and go 100% no contact. I needed proof and 100% transparency for all devices. Weekly MC. He would not move home until we were both ready. He also needed to continue to work on himself and accept responsibility for the damage he caused. He read the No More Mr Nice Guy book which fit him to a T! Even tho I was the person that wanted the M back more during the separation, I definitely have struggled more with understanding it and more so forgiveness. He has been consistent and patient in his commitment to our M and family in the last 5 years.
He has now been back in the M for over 5 years. It has been bumpy and messy. There have been times that I have seriously doubted if it could ever work in the long term and if I made the right choice. We did MC, we did our own IC, we attended Retrouvaille, we had the same conversations and tears. He has genuinely apologized and felt remorse a million times. I would say that my biggest obstacle has been myself and my feelings around his betrayal. It is not something I ever had thought I could understand and I don't know that I ever will. I do believe the man in front of me now is a good man, H and father. I think that is more important than our mistakes in the past. I have made mistakes too, I just haven't shared the details here. .... After BD, we often hang on to them so tight, but really, we are hanging on to the idea of them and what we had. When they return, the initial relief wears off quickly and the real person in front of us is tarnished.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Whenever someone does this they are hoping to hurt you, to get a reaction out of you. It only works if you let it. I remember a good quote a DB'er gave me a couple years ago from Bruce Lee:
"You will continue to suffer if you have an emotion reaction to everything that is said to you. True power is sitting back and observing everything with logic. If words control you that means everyone else can control you. Breathe and allow things to pass."
You don't become a stoic overnight, so I don't expect you to not feel the pain. But you knew this was possible. Divorce doesn't bring out the best in people. Try to view the rest of this as a business transaction. You broke up with gf's before right? Treat her like that and move forward.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Your STBXW is walking down the street at night and stops between two houses. From one house comes the sound of crying, wailing, and breaking glass. The other house seems to have a party going on and she can hear music and laughter and sounds of friendship. Which house does she want to enter?
If your life is full of warmth, laughter and friendship she won't be able to stay away, and even if she does, you won't miss her.
When you pursue someone, their response is to run. The more you pursue, the more they run. Think of it this way, pretend W wants 4 feet of space between the two of you. You move in a foot to three feet and it makes her uncomfortable, so she moves another foot away.
Do that for long enough and she will want 5 feet between you instead of 4, and then 6 instead of 5.
If, on the other hand, you go the other direction and give her 8 feet instead of the 4 feet she wants, then you make it "safe" for her to move 4 feet back toward you without feeling uncomfortable.
If you allow her to maintain her 4 feet and she gets comfortable, she may only need 3 feet, etc.
That's the point about pursuing and temp checking and why it makes everyone's situation worse.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Sorry you are going through this. Most of us can relate to what you are going through.
I see you are struggling with wrapping your head around the whys: Why is this happening? Why is he doing this? Why does it have to be so upsetting? Why does it have to cause so much turmoil?
That is one of the biggest struggles we all go through. But here is the thing, the reasons do not matter. Nor will they help you. I know this is hard to hear, it was for me as well. When my most recent situation happened I struggled with the whys too, and then I had someone point out one simplistic, yet so profound, answer. And that is that he is simply trying to be happy. Why he wasn't happy no one can tell you, but the fact that he is doing all of this is in an effort to be happy.
I love your last question: "How can I make it through this, my friends? What can I do?"
The first thing you can do is come to the understanding that you are going to be ok. When you are thick in the despair of your situation it is hard to think ahead to 3, 6 9 months from now, or even a year or two from now, and realize that you are going to be ok! And if you think about it, you have no other choice. We live in an imperfect world. We do not get to decide the choices others make. Your H is making these choices, and there is nothing you can do about that. It is very similar to if he were to pass away. You wouldn't be able to change the fact that he were gone, but you DO get to decide how to move forward! And there really is no other choice to make. Remaining stuck in one place for too long is never healthy. So whether he leaves you, or whether he were to pass away, you should mourn the loss for a period of time....then pick yourself up and move forward! Likely there are other people in your life that need you, and it wouldn't be fair to them to remain stuck in a prolonged period of paralysis.
Second, once you realize that you are going to be ok, that you need to be ok at some point, the question is: how do you get there? First you start by taking your focus off of him, and onto yourself. Easier said than done, isn't it? But this is really a key piece to moving forward. This is going to be a culture shock for both you and him. But once you start focusing on yourself (and we'll talk about how you do that in a minute), then that culture shock will help you get over the fact that your MR is ending, and get you to a place where you realize that it is going to be much better than you could imagine it being right now! And it also means that he may not like the fact that you are moving on without him and suddenly decide to change his mind. You do not do it for that reason, but it could have that result. It has happened, though it isn't a guarantee.
In order to move forward you start instituting DB principles. Do not start R talks. When he does listen and validate. Do not accept disrespect, if he starts to get disrespectful you calmly but firmly end the conversation. GAL! Start living a life that others find interesting! Be busy, reconnect with old friends (preferably same sex friends), pick up old hobbies you may have moved away from, and take up things you've always wanted to do! 180 on any bad behaviors you have. Get into IC to cement these changes. If you are overly critical, work on that. If you are a pushover, work on that. Whatever your weaknesses are, figure them out, and work to correct them. Become the best version of yourself you can be! And finally learn to be lovingly detached. Get to a place of evenness emotionally, where he doesn't have as much control over what you think and feel. This starts by learning and knowing your own worth! Don't let your worth be dictated by other people.
One other point, Look back at your MR pre-BD. Did he have problems? Were you as happy as you could have been? BD has a way of making us, the LBS, romanticize that our MR was perfect before BD, when it wasn't. I know I was miserable in my own MR leading up to BD. If I am truthful there were many times when I almost initiated my own BD to my W! Yet after BD, I was consumed with trying to save it. While you may not have been as unhappy as I was leading up to BD, can you look back truthfully to say your MR was all you wanted it to be? I ask this because while the WAS will rewrite history that the marriage was always bad (yours did that), we often see LBSs rewriting history about how wonderful their MR and their WAS was too. I see you call him "my normally amazing" husband. Is that accurate? (Not a questions necessarily to be answered, but for you to ponder.)
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I use this message board to explore my thoughts and feelings to a degree. I continue to reflect on the marriage and I think my values are playing into this significantly. Family has always been my number one value and I've framed that around a long term marriage. No other value was even close to that of Family for me and the frame that I defined that through.
I don't miss my wife most of the time. Its not about her. The anxiety is about the unknown. The sadness is about a lifelong dream that has been lost. I'm mourning that dream and its hard to let go of.
Its about the dream, not about my wife. She just happens to be in the dream and the subject of it.
Originally Posted by LH19
It's hard to accept that what you viewed as the dream your W viewed as a nightmare. You are starting to see things clearly Scotty B. It was never about your W, she's just a mythical character in your dream. Time to change what your dream life looks like. Hopefully it includes laughter, joy and people who want to be apart of your new amazing life.
Originally Posted by DonH
It’s much easier for those of us with BD and D at or near double digit years in the rear view mirror to look at it this way. But we only got here by first facing and then grieving what we lost. It’s normal to feel like you do Scott. You thought you had your dream life. It’s crushing to learn otherwise and takes time to get through. In some ways it will effect you for the rest of your life. I know it has me. That’s not bad, there is positive effect too. It changes who we are - again, sometimes for the good. But it does all get better as evidence by how LH and I can look back at and talk about it all so matter of fact and casually as we do now.
Last edited by Ready2Change; 01/20/2106:57 PM.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, she needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.
You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel *any* responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.
Very important: You are not mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.
It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.
She needs to fully believe that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.
You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.
At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) and build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.
You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.
She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, nothing you do will impact it.
Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
My advice? Figure out what is most important to you long term and then make every decision with that goal in mind. Who cares if she thinks she can still control you? If she thinks she's in the driver's seat, you are more likely to get what you want. If you fan the flames right now and do anything that could give her ammunition in the coming divorce, I would question whether or not you're just acting on emotion and short-term pleasure.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
My D is oh so close to being finalized, I am just waiting on W's lawyer to send over some paperwork. If it looks acceptable, it will go to the judge and that will be all she wrote! Just as a brief recap, I have 50/50 custody, zero child support or alimony, and we are both keeping our own bank accounts and retirement accounts. My W's parents helped her buy me out of the house and I got a nice chunk of money that will be a down payment on my next purchase. I'm currently renting a house in the same town in a neighborhood that is zoned for my kids' school and they have friends in the 'hood which is amazing. It is also a very social neighborhood with parents (even with Covid ) so it's alot of fun.
Relations with the STBX are all business and 95% via text. There have been a few blips of drama due to her hotheaded nature, and I simply will not interact with her at those times, same as when we were together. "We'll have to talk about that later." Then silence. I have always believed that one of the most powerful tools is to refuse to engage with a person who is emotional, agitated and spinning. Even waiting just 1/2 hour to deal with the issue is massively beneficial to permit the hothead to cool off. It also allows you to avoid getting sucked into their whirling tornado. The truest manifestation of strength is control over one's emotions.
As for my routine, like BL42 it involves handling virtually all domestic tasks while the kids are at W's - laundry, cleaning, shopping, etc etc, including cooking - I cook multiple complete meals the day before i get the kids so i am not even bogged down with that when they are here. I have found that I need 2 nights to get everything done. It's a multi-tasking scenario and i will often listen to podcasts while i'm doing tasks, or have the music going. I enjoy those nights. So i then have either 1 or 2 nights free every week depending on the schedule. I make use of almost every free evening by being social in some way. I tend to work longer days when I don't have the kids so I can call it quits a little early when I do have them. We have a different fun project that we work on every week so they have that to look forward to when they arrive. We have family game sessions, movie nights, family band sessions and a bunch of other routines. Outside of that, I have a four day a week workout routine and have specific chunks of time set aside to work on photo projects, researching purchases, reviewing investments, speaking with family, etc etc. There is alot to pack in but there is time. I think it was Bruce Lee that said people who value life do not waste time, because time is what life is made of.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
So the first step that worked for me, at least in this situation was... stop. Don't say ANYTHING. Just listen. Even if I was fuming inside and dying to say something back, I zipped my lip. That both prevented me from going to my usual reaction but also forced him to respond differently. And, for the most part (yesterday being an exception) he's become much better about this kind of thing-- says it nicely, like hey, looks like the dishwasher isn't doing a good job, I found this spoon. (I'm just using the spoon as an example-- it isn't always the dishwasher, it could be just about anything in this category.)
Then I noticed.. I had that same response NO MATTER HOW he said it to me. Because he started saying it more nicely and I *still* felt guilty and defensive. That helped me realize that this was my issue, more than his.
Taking that beat has really helped me in a lot of ways better interpret what my H is actually saying or doing from an intellectual space, without going immediately to the ingrained emotional response. Alison helped me with this a lot too, seeing where my own behaviors were actually aimed at getting some response out of H and it was a form of trying to maintain control.
Sometimes that beat is enough. Sometimes it needs to be three deep breaths. Sometimes I say, I can't really do this right now, I'm sorry, can we pick it up in a minute? And take the time I need to think through what is going on, what I'm really hearing from him and what blanks I'm filling in from my own experience and emotional response.
This has helped me in my interaction with my mom, too, quite a bit. She can say some nutty things and my immediate usual response is to get frustrated with her, and I know she thinks I jump all over her for taking the smallest misstep. Now I take that same beat with her and try to separate out what I'm hearing vs what me just reacting to her or the context.
Naming your own emotional response in the moment helps too. Rather than just feeling defensive and that huge spurt of adrenaline fueling your response, being able to say wow, I feel defensive right now, helped me at least to calm down. And if you get to the point where you can also name that to your H-- I'm sorry, I'm feeling kind of defensive right now-- that also can help him understand what is going on for you in that moment.
Once you can take that beat and control your initial emotional response, then another step you can take is to listen carefully to what it is that your H is saying. What is he really trying to communicate to you? A lot of times it isn't in the words he's using-- those are often the same old retreads as well. Be curious. Ask deepening questions. (Another very, very serendipitous thing that happened for me at the same time as this whole crisis was that I had the opportunity to participate in this incredible 18 month leadership fellowship, a lot of which was about learning how to be a better listener/communicator, and I had an executive coach also who helped me with a lot of this in a work context.) See where he's coming from. I think a lot of times it can defuse your own emotional response to understand where he's really coming from, because it is often not about you (something you can be defensive about) but rather how he feels, which you can probably empathize with.
Later, spend some time parsing through what happened. How did you feel? What did you say? What might you have said instead? What is really at the heart of your regular emotional response? If you were a fly on the wall and observing another couple having the same conversation, what would you think?
Anyway, just some thoughts that helped me.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
And I'll ask a question I would assume to know that answer to, because I've learned not to assume -- How do I deal with the feeling of the loss of control?
Originally Posted by may22
You have to accept it as reality. The feeling of control you had before was an illusion. You control you. Focus on that which is within your control, and let go of that which is not.
This was the hardest thing for me to accept. And releasing control is an ongoing practice for me (at least for now), not a state I reached and never looked back. One thing that really helped me that I learned about here is the Daily Stoic videos-- the one that really spoke to me for whatever reason is the one he did for pro sports athletes called "you control how you play"-- somehow that really helped me to understand. You don't control the weather, or your teammates, or the fans, or what they say about you on Twitter. You control how you play the game. That's it.
In the LBS sitch, you don't control your S. The decision to be M or stay M is not something you can make happen on your own. Both parties have to want it. Another quote I found and liked was you can't clap with one hand. Whatever you can grab onto that helps you to let go of the illusion of control over your S and M and focus on that which is within your control, the better you'll do... because you'll see you ARE in control. Of yourself. And you have your whole life in front of you, to take and live, and grab happiness with both hands. You can't do that if you're fretting about things that you can't control. It is what it is.
And if the distance you've gained so far is helping you to see that your R with your spouse was toxic... then onward, man. You know what to do. This is a journey and a practice, and it will get easier and easier. The more you focus on things within your control, the more control you'll feel-- because you ARE taking control of your own life and not letting yourself get dragged around by someone else's crisis.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Re-attracting back your ex is tricky. Others here have used this quote: "You never look more attractive than when you are walking away." Another anti-D expert I read in my sitch put it this way. She was talking to a woman that had left her husband, moved into her own place, was co-parenting with her LBH, but was carrying on a secret affair with another man that was the basis for her moving out, etc. The expert warned this woman, "right now you think you are in love with the OM, and that you are moving on from your H. You may even go through with the D, and move in with OM or even marry OM. However, at some point you will look back and realize that your H and MR wasn't so bad and that you made a mistake. This usually coincides with your ex-H moving on with another woman. Suddenly you will ask yourself why you did what you did!" This is why LH quotes me as having said that eventually, if you both live long enough, she will eventually regret her decision to leave you. And usually at that point the WAS will try to come back. It could be 6 months, it could be 60 years. So it isn't something you should be waiting on.
Sorry, I rambled there a bit, but the point is the best way to attract your ex back is to NOT try to attract her back. We recommend things like working out, updating your wardrobe and dressing better, improve your behaviors (we've had LBSs that were addicted to video gaming for instance, stopping that behavior), if you have bad hygiene/grooming then improve those. You do not do these things to attract your ex back, you do them to become a better person all around and to be more attractive in general! If you do it just to re-attract her she will smell a rat at 100 yards. So do it for YOU not her.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Also I remember mid May of 2018 when I took back the master bedroom. I was scared. My WW was yelling at me. I had planned out what to say and stuck to that. "You having an affair, I am going to sleep in my bed. You can sleep elsewhere".
The words weren't particularly strong and I doubt my posture and tone were either, but it was a big step for me to take back the initiative - to become proactive and not reactive.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I married young to the sweetest guy on earth. I had never heard of NGS, but I quickly learned the hard way that my H was a poster boy for Mr. Nice Guy. I'll spare you the history, b/c it's quite long. I'll just tell you that his NGS killed the attraction I felt for him, b/c a wife's loving feelings are based on the level of respect she feels for her H. With that said, a LBH who has a WW needs to view his actions based on the respect factor. It doesn't matter if she cries, throws a fit, threatens, or whatever. What matters is that she learns to respect you as a man. Listen carefully. She has to respect you as a man, before she can respect you as her H. That's the starting line back to a promising healthy relationship.
She may not like you whatsoever, initially, but that's okay. Your goal is not trying to be likeable. Your goal is not to get on the good side of your WW. Your goal is to command respect under you own roof, and in all of your relationships. The problem nice guys seem to have, is not knowing exactly how to conduct themselves in order to get this respect from others. They jump from one end of the spectrum to the total opposite, and act more like a jerk than a self respecting man who has standards/principals. So, I'll warn you in advance, if you choose to accept this challenge......gear up for the unpleasant side of a wayward wife. The cheating is a symptom of her disrespect for you and your relationship together. You need to get that in your head. Prepare for the worst, and if you occasionally have moments of peace and some level of niceness from her......enjoy the moment, but don't think for a minute she has "changed". It takes time and consistent strength on behalf of the LBH, before her respect begins to return. Unfortunately, most WW's are very cunning, and most LBH's have trouble staying balanced and not fall for the tricks his WW pulls out of her bag. I encourage you to use this board daily as a source to stay balanced and on target.
I don't quote Sandi2 much. That is because almost every post of hers would be quoted. 18,632 posts. Go read as many as you can, you will be much wiser:
Well, in today's IC session the advice I got was to give my expectations of the future a rest - continue to work to stay in the present and focus on controlling the things I can control. Also to give myself space - meaning that I shouldn't be too hard on myself in regards to what I should be able to accomplish right now. This is a season of life and its okay to just get by for now.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
This whole post was good, but this line really stood out to me:
Originally Posted by LH19
99.9% of the suffering on this board is because the LBS is in love with the fantasy of the person they want their WS to be and are not capable of being right now.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
We all get urges. The trick is to pause, write it down, and reflect on it before acting. The goal is to act in-line with your goals and values. Very few interactions or decisions must be made on-the-spot. You can almost always say, "I need time to consider it." This improves the quality of decisions. They still won't be perfect. We can only do our best.
E.g., a newly single acquaintance on my Facebook feed posted photos of her new hairdo yesterday. She asked me out years ago. Immediate urge--ask her out on a date. She's entering the "I want to look good" phase which usually means she's ready or close to ready to date and I'd probably be the first to ask her out. Reflection--no, I'm not dating now, and she doesn't match all the values I'm seeking anyway. When I date, it's okay if it takes awhile. My life is good solo and I only accept great matches.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
The number one challenge people have on DB is that they WANT to pursue because they want their control back, so despite knowing they shouldn't, they invent viable excuses to justify it to themselves and then do it anyway.
Lack of self control is the #1 enemy of DB. If self control were easy, no one would smoke, drink, or be overweight. Its very hard, but that's what it takes to turn things around, commitment to being counter-intuitive and fighting your impulses.
Going the other way is the ONLY thing that may effect a woman like that.
I often tell people, the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction.
The very best path is the minute your partner says they want out you smile, say "good luck with that", hand them a box of their stuff, and go live a kick-@ss life of your own.
In that case, they have to spend zero time focused on getting away from you and can right away shift into wondering where you've gone. That's what you want.
In terms of her feeling differently -- when you first met she didn't instantly want to marry you, then you got married and she didn't want to leave you, then at some point she did want to leave you. She was stubborn the whole time, made three decisions there and changed her feelings about the first two. That should prove to you that her feelings do change, and despite how she feels now, or what she says now, she may feel and do completely different things in the future. You have hard evidence of that.
Buckle your seatbelt because the ride is just beginning. She won't be done with you for a long time, nor will you be done with her. Assuming you have children together you will be intermeshed for the rest of your life.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
IF you do the work and apply what you have learned here, you will attract women far better for you than your WW ever was. It's just the natural result of DBing for YOU, and not trying to manipulate your W back into a relationship with you.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I don’t want to make you mad. I want you to see how this looks from every angle. I had an incredibly tough time myself accepting reality. It’s weird what we can accept but we almost have a hard time believing the most simple truth of all. Our spouses are unfortunately liars. This is why you believe nothing of what they say any only half of what they do. (In terms of our marriages)
I feel for you more than I let on. Tough love is just sometimes what the doctor ordered. I had so much help here, I owe so many people so much, but particularly Ginger said somethings on my thread that really helped me see I wasn’t being the best me. I wasn’t the best father. I wasn’t the best man. I wasn’t the best anything. I wasn’t horrible and certainly didn’t deserve what happened, but I played my part. I was absent and neglectful. That doesn’t mean I deserved what happened. It sure as heck doesn’t mean my kids deserved anything they got, but I was never going to be in a good honest decent relationship if I didn’t change my ways too.
For us, this isn’t about saving our marriages. They are dead. This is about saving ourselves and far more importantly our children. What I want you to see is this isn’t the end, this should be the beginning. Because if you can let her go, see your mistakes (and you make them trust me, you’ve lashed out on here and done some questionable things) you will be the best version of yourself for you, your kids, and the next woman who does deserve you.
I am truly sorry you are going through this. I truly feel for you. Some marriages can be saved. Some should be. I am a big believer in forgiveness for yourself and your partner.
I was with my W since I was 20. 16 years. Darn near half my life. She was my everything. In retrospect it wasn’t healthy. But it was what it was. I couldn’t imagine a day without her face, a day without her voice, her smile, her smell. She was my everything. Quite literally. I cried a many of nights wondering why me? What did I do? Accept it for what it is, why me was because I was blind to who she was and what I did to deserve this was nothing. As far as I can tell you’re in the same boat.
What I wish you could see is the unlimited opportunities for happiness and love once you climb this mountain. I’ve been with someone now who I have a very healthy connection with, and I wouldn’t trade this entire experience for the world. I am so much better off and happier. I just want you to join me at the top of the mountain and see what I do.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
You ever watched the workout for a professional sports player getting ready for the start of a season? If not, what you will see, is multiple players, yelling, screaming, people giving up because the workout is too hard, and then you have a coach, calling them all out for being weak. He's tough on them, not because, he's mean, but because he knows the season that's coming up is even tougher.
I think a lot of Newcomers come here and take the comments to heart and think posters are being mean to them, but in reality they are preparing them for the season ahead, we all know how grueling it will be, and being nice won't cut it, we have to be tough, because if not, than the messages/comments won't sink in. Also, look around, the posters, never gave up on you. They keep posting, because you are worth it.
Reserve yourself in understanding that emotional detachment is not easy and it takes a conscience effort to achieve. Will you be perfect no, not to many people going thru a situation for the first time, does everything right in the beginning without mistakes. Take this process, one moment/day at a time. You will heal/grow/learn and become better for going thru this season.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
The frustration from the posters comes from the fact that you know what you need to do, you just choose not to do it based on emotions. One of my favorite quotes that feeds in perfectly for you is “ When decisions are made based on emotions there are sure to be consequences”. You 100% should not be trying to save your marriage you should be trying to save yourself. You bend and twist things around to fit into your narrative of getting your STBXW back. You are still operating under the “illusion of action” thinking there is something you can do to turn this around. Until you understand you can’t turn this around unfortunately you will suffer immensely.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
“To become your most attractive self, you must create a life and lifestyle that makes it easy for you to be happy, smile and find lots of easy ways to laugh, have fun, learn something and enjoy the gift of your life. Everyone loves being around happy, attractive and fun people who are living life to the fullest. Don’t look for someone to complete you or make you happy. Become the kind of person who is in great shape, happy being single, having fun by themselves and open to the possibility of finding someone special to share their completeness with. You can’t give away what you don’t already have for yourself.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
If there was one thing I wish I had realized to be as axiomatic as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West prior to BD day is that when a WAS informs an unsuspecting spouse of their intent to file for divorce and, "oh by the way there's someone else and I wasn't really out running errands today like I told you I was going to do but I was actually at OM's place", they are SO FAR GONE already, SO Emotionally Checked Out and divorced from that spouse and probably have been for quite a while, that the only logical response for the poor LBS at that precise moment is to probably say "well, sorry it's come to this, I wish you every happiness, it's been a great so many number of years, give my best to OM, but I'm outta here, like NOW!" Then disappear, make yourself conspicuously scarce and visit your lawyer.
Also, bravo for use of the word "axiomatic".
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
"Men who have choices and options with women are in no hurry or rush to lock a woman down to a commitment. They take their time and carefully evaluate how their dates went and then contemplate on whether or not the women are a good fit, good for them, good to them and if the women are likeable enough to continue investing time, money and effort getting to know them.
Men who have little to no choice with women are in a rush, impatient and driven by fear to lock women down to a commitment before some other guy comes along and steals them away. Women like men who are a challenge, men who they have to make a mutual effort to keep around. Despite what women say, they like a guy more if they are unsure of his interest, he’s mysterious and unpredictable.”
~ Coach Corey Wayne
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I believe what he says applies equally to "People who are unhappy alone."
"People who are unhappy alone are in a rush, impatient and driven by fear to lock <partners> down to a commitment before some other <person> comes along and steals them away." I know once upon a time, even when dating and sleeping with multiple women simultaneously--I had choices--I was in a hurry to lock-down a commitment. Rushing is definitely not the best way to find a great long-term partner.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
She’s a teenager! I agree with everyone’s advice to focus on you and just treat your d with kindness and love. Playing tug of war with your XW using your d as the rope is only going to end badly for all of you. If she won’t come with you, enjoy time with your son. Let her know she is missed and that you love her but you respect her boundaries.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
In the early days, even if you find yourself lurking around these parts, you secretly believe that your situation is different. Your H or W is not like these other maniacs you read about on the boards. Your love was better, your marriage stronger, your spouse had a more solid core. You read about the trajectory these MLC stories took, but you do not believe that this will happen to you because of the many differences in your story, your spouse, you.
As a result, you don’t follow the advice you read about here. It is so drastic! And sometimes it’s so rude! It just isn’t Christian. It doesn’t look good for the children to see you ignore/cut off their dad/mom like that. You don’t want your in-laws to think badly of you. You don’t want to do something that would “ruin” the chance of restoration. You can see that some of the people posting here make a lot of mistakes and got themselves into second relationships that don’t sound good. You don’t want to separate your finances or lay claim to your house or your kids or squirrel away any of your savings because you don’t want a divorce, and those things are part of divorcing, not marriage. You don’t want to stop doing his laundry because it’s the only way you can show love. And you have read that this whole thing should only take about two years. You can do two years.
Listen to me.
It is not going to take two years.
And you have to separate your finances and get custody of your children right now. Before you even finish reading this.
Listen to me. I am speaking to you from your future. You can watch your own future play out if you read my posts from 2014 until now.
And I don’t mean your spouse won’t come out of this. I don’t mean your marriage won’t be restored. It might. And I hope it will.
But if you don’t step away, if you don’t separate all your finances, protect your children and protect your house, your spouse might damage things so badly that you won’t want him/her back and there won't be much to come back to.
If your husband was burning down the house, would you just stand there watching? Would you hand him a match? What if your kids were inside?
If your wife was shooting heroin at the kitchen table, would you let the kids watch?
The kindest thing you can do for your spouse right now is limit the amount of damage s/he can do to your house, your finances and your kids. If you want, tell him you’ll be waiting on the other side. If you want, tell her you’re not planning to “move on” but you have to protect the family until she can be part of decisions that are best for your kids.
But before you do that, take half of everything and put it somewhere he can’t touch. And start living a separate financial life and as much of a separate family life as you can.
Don’t notice what she’s doing with her half. You don’t want to know.
But keep records of anything that dissipates your asset or impacts your kids. Write the date each time. You might be doing it for a few years and you’ll forget if you don't write it down. You might need the records to prove something when he tries to take everything.
Was he great at fixing stuff around the house? Don't ask him for that anymore. Hire someone or watch a YT video and do it yourself. Is she an expert on health insurance and you need to know where to find someone? Call a broker. Don't call her. Are you afraid you'll get cheated at the auto mechanic? Call your brother to go with you. Or get cheated, it's okay to pay too much in order to avoid asking your spouse. Do your own laundry, take out your own trash, parent your kids and love them double to make up for how your spouse can’t love. Get to church/synagogue/temple/mosque. If you don't go, go anyway.
Stop thinking about what your spouse should do if he was a decent man or has to do if she is a real mother. They can’t and they won’t.
Does your spouse want to tell you about the OP? Don’t listen. Leave the room. Say, “That’s between you and God/the universe, do not speak about that to me.”
Did your spouse act nice today? Don’t read into it.
Want to share that pie? OK. Don’t want to share that pie? Don’t.
Feel like ironing his shirts? Don’t.
Do you miss him and just want to hear his voice? Have a dance party with your kids and blast the music at top volume.
Do you just want to tell her that one thing so that she’ll finally understand what she’s doing to you? She won’t hear you. She can't even see you, the actual you. Go mow your elderly neighbor’s lawn.
Do you want to finally say exactly what you are thinking and really make him understand? Go take a hike alone. Stand under some trees and scream what you wanted to say. Or write it all down and bury the letter in the backyard.
Want to hide in your room because he’s drunk and sleeping on the couch every night? Borrow $1000 from each of your cousins and offer him an advance on his equity to move out. Did he leave his stuff? Pack it up and put it in storage and pay the first two months and let him know he has two months to get it or lose it. Get some $5 oops paint from your local hardware store and some cool thrift store houseware finds and redo the living room the way you want it. Read that book on Swedish Death Cleaning and death clean your house. Plant a fruit tree out front. Pick blueberries with the kids and make them some blueberry pancakes and laugh and watch Malcolm in the Middle at the dinner table sometimes.
Own a business together? Sell it and start another. Or get another partner and buy him out.
Is she ready to sign a divorce agreement that seems reasonable to a lawyer you trust? Sign it. Quick.
Want him/her to come back? He might. He might not. Go and find a life. I don't mean to date. You don't have to. In fact, you probably shouldn't for quite a while. Focus on your kids. But hang out with friends whenever you can. Remember what you wanted to be before you met and work on that again. Or think of a new dream and get moving. If things get stable at home, become a foster parent or mentor a troubled teen or volunteer in a nursing home or a prison. Read about what's happening in a war-torn country or a refugee camp and do something about it. Go for bike rides everyday. Raise chickens. Write your novel. Take singing lessons. Start growing food. Make peace with your mom. Read all afternoon every afternoon. Bake pies. Learn a new language and start planning your trip to the plae where they speak it. Turn one of your bedrooms into an AirB. Turn your garden shed into a she shed.
Create meaning in your life. See how beautiful life is, what a miracle that you are here to live it.
Listen to me. I know you very well. I was you. Don't be me, don't follow my path. Just trust me. Do these things I am telling you even if you don't want to, even if you are sure I am wrong.
There will always be room for him in your life if he comes back and you’re still willing by then. Set up the boundaries you need to provide a good life for your children with or without her. Protect what you two built. He is a forest fire. She is a tsunami. They will destroy anything in their path for a while. Protect it all so that if he wakes up, if she finally faces her wound, there will be something left to return to. And if he doesn’t, if she doesn’t, you’ll already be living, my dear, you'll already be living!
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
“But” usually leads some form of justification. Please consider the following:
“But he isn't a good person...” - H is not a bad person. Sure, he is exhibiting bad behaviour and poor choices, yet he is not a bad person. See the sinner and the sin as two separate items, for they are. You can and should place boundaries on sinful or disrespectful behaviours. It is completely fine to protect one’s self, and hold others properly accountable.
The path of Grace you are hopefully seeking is love the sinner and forgive the sin.
The usual dogma is love/forgive the sinner and hate the sin. That is not compassion and is definitely not Grace. It keeps the forgiver in a place of higher moral position. True forgiveness is a non-transactional exchange; the sinner does not need to perform anything to earn your forgiveness.
Grace, and the acts it inspire, seem a risky venture. Grace has no immediate return, nor promise of any. People, society, see and are programmed to conduct transactionally and therefore shy away from Grace. Yet, an act of Grace is wondrous and powerful. Unconditional love and forgiving is often the very act that encourages and draws the sinner to repent.
“...right now, and that is what matters as he may never be the person I cared about again.” - You hit the nail of the head and I think you don’t realize it. H is who he is right now. He was a different person, someone you cared about. Will he be this way from now on, or will he return, or someone in between, or worse, or better. I do not know. No one can predict the future. What matters is not who H becomes, it’s who you become.
“I had tried to stand for him, but I don't feel I can anymore.” - We all start out standing for our spouse. We gain wisdom and realize we must stand for ourselves.
I understand and empathize with your feelings. Can you guess what I’m about to affirm? Feelings are fleeting. They flit when not reinforced. Do not make life decisions based upon feelings. You are right, you feel like you cannot stand anymore, especially if you are just standing for H. What do you believe? Deep down. Your convictions. Are you happy with them? Proud of them? Inspired by them?
Stand for you. Because you are worth it!!! Believe that.
The path is counterintuitive. It will feel wrong. It will seem wrong. Right up until it isn’t. Beliefs affect and influence all aspects of our lives - love, hate, compassion, Grace, forgiveness, judging, and so on. Strengthen, craft, alter, and discard as necessary to become.
Focus on you and continue your fine inner reflection and work. Never lose sight that you are a wonderful soul. And do choose the path of Grace when you can, for its blessings are many. (((Hugs)))
D
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
“When men become the women in their relationships by becoming overly emotional, unsure of themselves and start displaying more feminine behavior and less and less masculine behavior, this ruins the sexual polarity and eventually the relationship. Women submit to men only when they prove their leadership ability through congruency of their thoughts, words and actions. If men start abdicating their leadership role by becoming more feminine, emotional and unsure of themselves and waiting on the women to lead them and make all of the decisions, this forces the women to move into their masculine to make up for their lack of leadership. This results in resentment and a loss of respect, affection and intimacy by the women. Men who change into something they are not in order to please their women will eventually get dumped, blown off or ghosted.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
R2C I'm genuinely disappointed this quote made it to this thread. This a bunch of gross over generalizations and really crappy gender theory. The only point and the one and only thing about this quote that isn't offensive or flat out disgusting and frankly encouraging some pretty awful behavior, is NO ONE SHOULD CHANGE INTO SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT IN ORDER TO PLEASE ANYONE.
R2C I'm genuinely disappointed this quote made it to this thread.
I debated in my head if I should quote it. I prefer to quote actual DB poster's words rather than a quote of a quote.
Words are abstract and have different meanings to different people. I have learned not to judge other peoples poor choice of words, but to listen to them to understand the true message they are attempting to pass along. I do not know who Coach Wayne is, but those are his words he chose to use at that time. I can see how you interpreted his words different than I did.
When I read it, I reflected back to the two long term relationships I have had. The way I behaved over a course of 18 years with my X that lead to the end of my marriage compared to the way I have been behaving over the past 10 years with my current woman. I completely related to his message.
There are times when being overly emotional is perfectly OK. There are other times when completely controlling your emotions is the best choice. The problem is when one doesn't even know there is an option to behave the other way.
Congruency of thoughts, words and action (and I throw in core beliefs, body language, facial expressions, tone and inflections) is also something we all should master. Men and woman.
From my personal experience and observations, I believe this to be a true statement: "Wives that make all of the decisions results in resentment and a loss of respect, affection and intimacy to the Husband."
I believe the wife wants a partner, not a man behaving like a child. A man making decisions is attractive. Most men here need a boost in confidence and a new set of skills to get them headed in the right direction.
Wayfarer, you are in a very unique position where you can help point the men here in that direction. What traits of your husband do you admire and find attractive? Which areas need improvement, how swould you prefer him behave compared to how is is behaving?
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I agree Corey's words weren't the best, e.g. “When men become the women in their relationships by becoming.. unsure of themselves"--he asserts low confidence is feminine. A study of ASU students with a 3.3 GPA found that men believed they were smarter than 66% of other students, while women felt they were smarter than 54% of other students. There's a gap, but both genders generally believed in themselves. When dating, I don't seek out "unsure of themselves" as feminine. Confidence is sexy in any gender!
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I believe the wife wants a partner, not a man behaving like a child. A man making decisions is attractive. Most men here need a boost in confidence and a new set of skills to get them headed in the right direction.
Maybe we can replace Corey's quote with Ready2Change's quote, the idea without the gender stereotype? (:
When your quote is literally “When men become women by [doing these clearly negative things, and BTW I’m also telling you those negative things are inherently female traits and not male traits]” it’s easy to say WTF, are you telling me females are inherently inferior or what?
Ideally, both parties to a relationship should be confident, sure of themselves, and be willing to lead (and follow) at times. They should be in tune with and comfortable with their emotions, and be clear and expressive of how they feel and what they want. While compromise is necessary, if you just become a passive participant in the relationship and decline to make any decisions on the basis of just going with the flow or not wanting to appear needy, your needs are ultimately not going to be met and you are going to become resentful, which in turn will push your partner away.
So just by browsing the internet you can find all kinds of studies backing his claims. You do not have to agree with what he says but I typically find his advice to be dead on.
National polls conducted in America over the past three decades have consistently shown that both men and women endorse the concept that women are more emotional than men (Brescoll, 2016; Dolan, 2014).
The Confidence Gap Evidence shows that women are less self-assured than men—and that to succeed, confidence matters as much as competence.
n studies, men overestimate their abilities and performance, and women underestimate both. Their performances do not differ in quality.
Do men doubt themselves sometimes? Of course. But they don’t let their doubts stop them as often as women do.
Women applied for a promotion only when they met 100 percent of the qualifications. Men applied when they met 50 percent.
We found perhaps the most striking illustration of how the connection between action and confidence might play out to women’s benefit in Milan. There we tracked down Zachary Estes, a research psychologist who’s long been curious about the confidence disparity between men and women. A few years ago, he gave 500 students a series of tests that involved reorganizing 3‑D images on a computer screen. He was testing a couple of things—the idea that confidence can be manipulated and the idea that, in some areas, women have less of it than men.
When Estes had the students solve a series of these spatial puzzles, the women scored measurably worse than the men did. But when he looked at the results more closely, he found that the women had done poorly because they hadn’t even attempted to answer a lot of the questions. So he repeated the experiment, this time telling the students they had to at least try to solve all the puzzles. And guess what: the women’s scores increased sharply, matching the men’s. Maddening. Yet also hopeful.
Estes’s work illustrates a key point: the natural result of low confidence is inaction. When women don’t act, when we hesitate because we aren’t sure, we hold ourselves back. But when we do act, even if it’s because we’re forced to, we perform just as well as men do.
Using a different test, Estes asked everyone to answer every question. Both the men and the women got 80 percent right, suggesting identical ability levels. He then tested the students again and asked them, after each question, to report their confidence in their answer. Just having to think about whether they felt certain of their answer changed their ability to do well. The women’s scores dipped to 75 percent, while the men’s jumped to 93. One little nudge asking women how sure they are about something rattles their world, while the same gesture reminds men that they’re terrific.
Finally, Estes decided to attempt a direct confidence boost. He told some members of the group, completely at random, that they had done very well on the previous test. On the next test they took, those men and women improved their scores dramatically. It was a clear measure of how confidence can be self-perpetuating.
These results could not be more relevant to understanding the confidence gap, and figuring out how to close it. What doomed the women in Estes’s lab was not their actual ability to do well on the tests. They were as able as the men were. What held them back was the choice they made not to try.
The advice implicit in such findings is hardly unfamiliar: to become more confident, women need to stop thinking so much and just act. And yet, there is something very powerful about this prescription, aligning as it does with everything research tells us about the sources of female reticence.
Most men are driven by fear and scarcity when it comes to dating and romance. They have seen too many movies with the theme that men must lock their dream women down to a commitment as quickly as possible before other men do. The beta males who make these movies don’t understand women and wish they acted in ways that are simply unnatural to how women really are and what attracts them to men. Men who watch these movies but don’t know any better behave this way and chase women right out of their lives. The reality is that women will chase and pursue men more and more as their interest rises. This creates the conditions where women naturally are the drivers of commitments and relationships. Love is allowing. Love is freedom. By allowing women to come and go as they please, men simply just have to say yes when women open the door.” ~ Coach Corey Wayne
Here’s a suggestion. This is not the Coach Corey Wayne board. Can we stop quoting him? And people that want to hear his “insights” can go follow him on the internet and let this board be? It is very off-putting for some of us and those of you that like him can go bother his website.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Here’s a suggestion. This is not the Coach Corey Wayne board. Can we stop quoting him? And people that want to hear his “insights” can go follow him on the internet and let this board be? It is very off-putting for some of us and those of you that like him can go bother his website.
I agree with may22. MWD has lots of great resources, some at this very site! (See the TV & Media link above.) She also has pointed, gender-specific advice for husbands and wives, and general advice that pertains to all. No need to pull in other resources when MWD is such an expert at what she has dedicated her life too She is the reason I came to this site, and while I've also read other authors and marriage experts, she is the premier anti-divorce expert in my estimation. I think sometimes we forget what a treasure-trove of information her books, the resources at this site, and even MWD's videos, interviews and writings that you can find across the internet truly are!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Though I believe in freedom of speech and understand that people have the right to read or not read if they so choose, I will expect your wishes May as the newest board monitor lol.
My decision may change if Wayfarer starts man hating again lol.
Here’s a suggestion. This is not the Coach Corey Wayne board. Can we stop quoting him? And people that want to hear his “insights” can go follow him on the internet and let this board be? It is very off-putting for some of us and those of you that like him can go bother his website.
Yeah me having this crazy requirement that men don't talk about women like they're another species and that some how in no way are equal, as well as, refusing to live in a magical land where people some how lack entirely either traditional masculine or feminine traits definitely makes me a man hater. Oh, ok. I was willing to roll with the joke previously because it felt like a joke. It doesn't any more. Seriously, if I hated men that much I'd be single, stay single and use men. But I don't. I love and respect men, just as much as I love and respect women and non-binary people. Simply because I won't kowtow to many times over debunked gender pseudo-science does not mean I hate anyone. The fact is if what I'm saying is offensive when I stand up for how trite, belittling and reductionist those statements are about women or those with effeminate traits I think that says a lot more about the reader than the writer. I'm not asking that an entire sex be wiped out. I'm asking to not have an entire group of people be reduced to a monolith and forced into a box of archaic expectations. That's not hate. That's called self respect. This isn't a zero sum game. And the fact that that has to be said is sad.
Also to clarify and simply because I was asked by R2C, I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off for literally every one. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a long here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.
Wayfarer don't get you knickers in a bunch. It was a joke based on one of your posts that laterally made me spit my coffee.
"My respect for person isn't based in how they treat themselves, in my anecdotal experiences, straight men tend to be of a quite self serving breed. Being nice or being a jerk. It's all about payoff."
Interesting how I can laugh that off but you guys are infuriated by a quote.
Yeah me having this crazy requirement that men don't talk about women like they're another species and that some how in no way are equal, as well as, refusing to live in a magical land where people some how lack entirely either traditional masculine or feminine traits definitely makes me a man hater. Oh, ok. I was willing to roll with the joke previously because it felt like a joke. It doesn't any more. Seriously, if I hated men that much I'd be single, stay single and use men. But I don't. I love and respect men, just as much as I love and respect women and non-binary people. Simply because I won't kowtow to many times over debunked gender pseudo-science does not mean I hate anyone. The fact is if what I'm saying is offensive when I stand up for how trite, belittling and reductionist those statements are about women or those with effeminate traits I think that says a lot more about the reader than the writer. I'm not asking that an entire sex be wiped out. I'm asking to not have an entire group of people be reduced to a monolith and forced into a box of archaic expectations. That's not hate. That's called self respect. This isn't a zero sum game. And the fact that that has to be said is sad.
Also to clarify and simply because I was asked by R2C, I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off for literally every one. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a long here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.
My only ask is: Please do not assume that because one recognizes differences between the sexes, that they are "belittling and reductionist". I have often recognized one of the irrefutable differences in the sexes, the ability of women to give birth to a new human-being, as one of the indicators that women are stronger than men!
But do I think men and women approach things like relationships, marriage and sex in very different ways? I absolutely do. And I think we'd be doing LBSs of both sexes a complete disservice to pretend that they do not. But the mere recognition of differences in the sexes in no way inherently elevates one gender over the other. I am not saying that there are not those that do that, but framing everyone that recognizes differences between men and women as "belittling and/or reductionist", is in and of itself reductionist. (WF, I am not saying that is what you were trying to suggest, but some could read your response above as saying just that.) I'd also point out that MWD herself recognizes the differences between men and women in her own writings and words.
I also think that the differences in perspectives of the posters here is why this forum works. We are not always going to agree on everything, but the advice comes from a place of trying to help the LBS that is being responded to. And the LBSs themselves can decide what advice they value and what advice they do not. This is why I try to not disagree directly with the advice of others. I just state my perspective, what I believe is helpful to the LBS, and if that differs from another poster's perspective and advice then so be it.
Last edited by SteveLW; 05/10/2102:55 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
That was a joke both ways. It felt like that was a joke both ways. Which is why I rolled with it. And which is why I've been rolling with it.
This however, less funny. LH you gotta understand there's a decent sized generational gap between you and I. Not to mention being born female and Latina, I have a very, very different perspective on the world. An off the cuff anecdotal remark is a little different than that quote. That quote extrapolated and re-written by Mako, not much to discuss. The CCW quote as is, is at the very least an abundantly loaded statement. I'm not looking for an apology here. Or for anybody to back pedal. I'd just really like to see some understanding as to why it's off putting and to see less of this kind of thing posted around here.
My only ask is: Please do not assume that because one recognizes differences between the sexes, that they are "belittling and reductionist". I have often recognized one of the irrefutable differences in the sexes, the ability of women to give birth to a new human-being, as one of the indicators that women are stronger than men!
But do I think men and women approach things like relationships, marriage and sex in very different ways? I absolutely do. And I think we'd be doing LBSs of both sexes a complete disservice to pretend that they do not. But the mere recognition of differences in the sexes in no way inherently elevates one gender over the other. I am not saying that there are not those that do that, but framing everyone that recognizes differences between men and women as "belittling and/or reductionist", is in and of itself reductionist. (WF, I am not saying that is what you were trying to suggest, but some could read your response above as saying just that.) I'd also point out that MWD herself recognizes the differences between men and women in her own writings and words.
Easy enough ask to comply with. I do genuinely understand given social conditioning there are differences in roles in heteronormative relationships. Also that some folks adhere to more traditional roles in their relationships. As well as just different world view.
My only ask here has been and will continue to be is that posts provide help and have value on the face vs information that in a round about way may possibly be helpful but at the detriment of an entire sex or all relationships that don't abide 100% by traditional gender roles. If you have to deconstruct the information to remove the boot on the neck of someone and then find the value in it what's the point.
An off the cuff anecdotal remark is a little different than that quote.
That's YOUR opinion. Not everyone's. Again I though it was hilarious that you said everything a straight man does and says is self serving. Some people may find that highly offensive.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I'd just really like to see some understanding as to why it's off putting and to see less of this kind of thing posted around here.
Again, I have agreed to not post CW quotes anymore. Do I need permission from you what to post in the future?
I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a long here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Also to clarify and simply because I was asked by R2C, I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off for literally every one. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a longdevelopment here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.
Try looking up Erik Eriksons stages of child development for what should happen in life. When it doesn't happen you set the stage for a MLC/WAS situation later in life.
You can't run away from growing up but people try to.
Its not our job to try to FIX them he may get help and then again he may not.
All we can do is let go and watch what happens. Of course a good use of our time during that period is to work on ourselves because that is something we can control.
Try looking up Erik Eriksons stages of child development for what should happen in life. When it doesn't happen you set the stage for a MLC/WAS situation later in life.
You can't run away from growing up but people try to.
Its not our job to try to FIX them he may get help and then again he may not.
All we can do is let go and watch what happens. Of course a good use of our time during that period is to work on ourselves because that is something we can control.
I will definitely glance at that. H has come a long way now that we're on the other side of our sitch. If nothing else I can say working on myself and being very clear that I'd be fine with or without him had an impact on his desire to "catch up" in the emotional maturity realm.
R2C also asked what traits I do appreciate about H and I didn't take the time to address it earlier.
I appreciate how hard he works, period. He works hard to make money for our family. He works hard to maintain his training for his long distance running and biking. He works hard (now) to make sure I know he is remorseful and that I'm secure, loved and appreciated. He works hard to be a good dad to our girls even through his ex being exceptionally difficult and my daughter not being his. I've seen a lot of guys mentally check out or bow out completely over less. I appreciate when he makes decisions and plans without waiting on me to do it. Not because having to make decisions is hard for me as a woman therefore making me resentful, but because I'm a naturally decisive person. I know what I want and don't want all the time. When I'm confused or unsure I research so I can be intentional in my decisiveness. It's honestly a nice break for me to just go with the flow and not have 3 people in my home and however many at work waiting and relying on me for direction. I also appreciate how far he's come in understanding that his emotions are his emotions and mine are mine. The same goes for our girls. For example if I'm in a bad mood and I specifically say it isn't about him he let's it go. He now understands that I have never been nor ever will be the type of woman who doesn't tell the person they have a problem with that they have a problem with them. He now truly listens when I try to explain at certain times why he really shouldn't interject or escalate with our teenage girls and that he's just gotta let things go sometimes for a plethora of reasons (anyone with teenage girls I'm sure understands that). I love his sense of humor. I love that he let's me be me, that he's never once tried to change me or control me. He's done some pretty awful stuff but he's never done that. My first H did that constantly and would set me up for failure because he was always moving the goal post on me. I could never be what that guy wanted because he had no idea what it was that he really wanted, and what ever it was it wasn't me. I appreciate that my H is supportive and doesn't let his ego get in the way of my accomplishments. I appreciate that he encourages and loves that I have my own friends and my own life. I appreciate that he truly understands that his individual life is something he can only take back in baby steps so I stay comfortable given our circumstances, and does so without question or resentment. I appreciate that I come home to my best friend, and he's just as excited to see me everyday when we both get home. I appreciate that I'm appreciated for who I am, for what I do for us, even the flaws and fumbles.
I've been exploring the resources here at divorcebusting.com and I want to give a plug to MWD's books. We all know about Divorce Busting and The Divorce Remedy, but MWD has written other books as well.
One for the ladies explicitly, that doesn't get enough attention if you ask me (and you didn't!) is Getting Through to the Man You Love.
Never let your kids feel you gave up on them - no matter how much they push you away. Let the lawyers do their jobs....Communicate with them as best you can without being pushy.....continue to put their feelings first and kept letting them know you love them even when they don't respond
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
What if what we are going thru is a test, this test is a mirror, a mirror that reflects who we are, how we react during our hardest times.
What if we were meant to go through this journey, would we be reflecting on who we are as a person if we weren't, or letting life's busy days consume us.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I did not even realize it but yesterday, August 25, 2011 marked 2 years to the date that I kicked my W out of the house in a fit of rage, anger and frustration. The cops came as I was throwing her clothes in trashbags out the front door onto the front lawn. What a scene it was!!!!
I found myself on the rollercoaster of emotions after the bomb drop and the discovery of her affair just 2 months prior and her statement that our marriage was over sent me over the edge.
When I look back at that time, I can remember the emotions and the events and the words spoken as if they were yesterday. However they are far behind me and I am a totally different person today.
I no longer mark the anniversary of her meeting the OM, the date of her PA, the date of the bomb, the date I found out about the affair......none of it......my life is too busy and too full of other things that matter to ME now.
For those who don't know, I filed for divorce and it became final on February 11, 2011. I stood for my marriage for a long time........
This morning, I was leaving for work and realized I had not checked the mail from yesterday.
In the mailbox was two hand addressed letters.
One addressed to ME, the other addressed to my D14.
(D14 does not see, nor talk, nor has any communication with her mother. My D14 has had her share of struggles with all this. She is on AD's and sleeping pills, and goes to a Therapist every other week, and spent 10 days in the hospital recently for thoughts of suicide.......My D14 is actually doing very well considering all she has been through.)
I sat in my car this morning and openned my letter........
MHL,
I am truly sorry.
I made some really bad decisions not realizing what the cost was going to be.
I honestly was not in my right mind.
I never intended to hurt anybody, and I know I did.
If I could take it all back I would. I never intended to tear the family apart.
With all my heart.
XW
As I read in so many threads here I see that we the LBS's always wonder if the MLCer/WAS realizes what they did. I would say that it is the one question that really gets to the crux of the matter.
"DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU DID OR ARE DOING????"
I will say that was the question I had and still had unanswered until this morning. It is the one question my D14 has too.
I can tell you that I have envisioned what that moment might look like when my XW would "wake up" one day. I accepted that it may never happen, and I was okay with it.
It came today, and it was not as I had thought it would be.....and more importantly it did not stir the emotion in me that I thought that it would have if it ever came.
I guess I had let go of the "expectation" that one day she would communicate to me that she "got it". I guess when I let go of that I was able to let go of the "shell of a marriage" I was holding onto.
My life is Happy now. I try daily to make myself a better MAN, FATHER and FRIEND. I do not feel that I am missing anything, I don't feel like a victim, I don't feel sad for what has happened.........it happened and I am dealing with it just as I deal with anything else in my life.
I have learned to press forward in my life and live with the things that I cannot change......I accept those things that I have no control over and deal with them accordingly.
One of the things I cannot change in my LIFE is........
I LOVE MY XW.
Always will............I accept it.
I am not ruled by my Love for my W just as I am not ruled by my anger either.
Actions taken out of emotions without thought are usually not good and often times can be destructive.........
even if those emotions are emotions of LOVE.
This is how we can get ourselves into codependent relationships.
I was talking to a close friend from the boards, just 2 days ago about how I interact with my XW.
I don’t act true to myself when I interact with my XW. I am a very friendly person, I will pretty much talk to the wall……THAT IS WHO I AM.
When I interact with my XW I am cordial and nice but I do not initiate small talk……I will respond to idle chit chat but I do not start it…..also I really don’t look at her in the face that much. I will do things for her that I would do for any other friend but I just am not “friendly” with her.
The reason I do this is not to get a reaction out of her but rather to protect me.
I have put my Love for her in a box down inside. I know it is there and I do not mess with it. I have managed to carry on my life and even have found that I can love someone else while I still have this box of love for my XW down inside me.
I accept it, and I have learned to live with it.
Part of living with it is not disturbing the box…….as I told my friend I do not want to stir any of the feelings for my XW…….I know there is pain there and I have learned to stay away from that pain.
I have touched the stove too many times…….I know better.
The way I act with my XW now is as automatic as breathing, I do not control it. The way I interact with her is an automatic response.
The reason for all that explanation is that I am not sure how I want to respond to her apology, which is still somewhat self-serving IMO.
I want to acknowledge that she sent it, I want to thank her for it and acknowledge that it was probably hard for her to do. At minimum I think that will be my response……..I am interested in what others may have to say.
The thing I am pondering is do I go a little further……..do I engage her……meaning do I ask her “what was it that brought her to this”.
Do I want to hear that?
Do I want to lower the wall?
I am so used to the way I interact with her that to do otherwise would be “un-natural” at this point…….I feel I may risk pain for myself. I have gotten real good at protecting myself.
I will take my time on this for sure.
Thanks.
Cheers
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Kind of coincidental! I just posted this in Mako's thread:
Originally Posted by SteveLW
MWD helped me immensely in my situation, not only on what I should or shouldn't be doing, but also on learning to empathize with what my WW was going through. No one, not even a WW, wakes up in the morning and thinks: "Hmmmmm, what can I do today to destroy as many lives as possible?"
Nope, the WW is fueled by selfishness (which results in destroying lives) and emotion. There isn't a lot of intent involved, though sometimes there is since most WW feel hurt by their LBH. But in the majority of the cases the WW is simply trying to do things to find her own happiness again. That was one of the best pieces of insight that I received in my own sitch was that my WW wasn't doing what she was doing to hurt me, she was doing what she was doing in order to try to be happy.
I found MHL's post very insightful, R2C! Thanks for sharing it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Kind of coincidental! I just posted this in Mako's thread:
Originally Posted by SteveLW
MWD helped me immensely in my situation, not only on what I should or shouldn't be doing, but also on learning to empathize with what my WW was going through. No one, not even a WW, wakes up in the morning and thinks: "Hmmmmm, what can I do today to destroy as many lives as possible?"
Nope, the WW is fueled by selfishness (which results in destroying lives) and emotion. There isn't a lot of intent involved, though sometimes there is since most WW feel hurt by their LBH. But in the majority of the cases the WW is simply trying to do things to find her own happiness again. That was one of the best pieces of insight that I received in my own sitch was that my WW wasn't doing what she was doing to hurt me, she was doing what she was doing in order to try to be happy.
I found MHL's post very insightful, R2C! Thanks for sharing it.
So I’m curious as to this line of thinking. Isn’t that the same as when people who are hungry that steal, loot and kill to eat. Are they not expected to face consequences for their actions?
What is the point of this forum? For me, I know I came here at a pretty dark time and more than anything, as unhealthy as this sounds, it was a crutch. I didn't even need a response to my sithc, just anyone posting having remotely the same experience as me eased the hurt that I was feeling. Being told that no matter what happened I would be ok, and to continue focussing on myself got me through some hard times. Does it matter whether it was 180, detach, become AMOAFWL or move on, go dark, never look back...I don't think so.
This site has people who have shared experiences, some recon, some don't. But most of us come out the other end better from the experience because we learn a of things about ourselves and a better way to live, some of these encapsulated by DBing, some extra to DBing.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
This is your life and these are your decisions to make, so you do what you feels best but always be DBing. It's what's best for you, and it's what's best for the MR if there's a chance to R here.
Quote
What I read when I found that info was that reconciliation and piecing aren't truly one in the same. Reconciliation is the time period in which you the LBS gets to reintroduce the new you to the WS and the WS gets to reintroduce themselves to the LBS. You with your new found better man-ness and her with her new found remorse and change of heart. New eyes. New people. You start, starting over. Not more MR 1.0 dragged on with a coat of new paint. Like actual new people dating and getting to know each other again. Feeling out if this is going to work. In particular you feeling out if you want to keep going down this road or cut your losses. Assessing the things like is this a game? Is this her biding her time? Does it feel like she's genuinely trying or is she trying to decide what to do with you? Are you willing to wait this out long enough to find out? Do you have the wherewithal to not push her? Do you have the will to work on you and keeping working on you and not dropping everything and dumping it in to fixing the MR?
because like every one is saying what will fix it is DBing principles?
A 3 month turn around is rare but not unheard of....In this part it's going to take her as long if not longer to decided what she really wants, to see you as a person of value and to show and say how remorseful she truly is, not about blowing up your lives but genuinely about hurting you like that (not any of this I didn't mean to hurt you stuff). If she's on that path it'll happen but it's going to happen on her timeline not yours. You will have to drop any expectation that you a) can control the path of any of this b) you can control her. Expectations must go out the door. This is why you have to focus on you. If you're focused on continuing to grow and move forward regardless of out come you aren't left the time or energy to control her journey here. I think a while back I wrote this on May's thread. Probably over a year ago now. While your journeys here are parallel they are not the same path. You'll each have different terrain to traverse, hills to climb, and storms to weather. You'll both be subjected to watching each other navigate, but you have no control over how fast or slow, or well or poorly she completes her journey. And if you want this to work, you let her do her work and you do yours. When it's time, you'll walk the path together.
If you guys get through that individual journey. If you make it to true remorse and find yourself in a place where you are fine regardless of outcome you may have a real go at reconciliation that will make it to piecing. That's when you begin to put the work in together. That's the time you have control over the momentum and direction of the journey. Until you're at the bridge where R meets piecing your list of wants and needs in MR 2.0 is irrelevant. You have to actually see MR 2.0 on the horizon before you can start digging in. Know what you need to cross that bridge, but now isn't the time to hand her the list. Now's the time to just keep moving forward one step at a time.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Kind of coincidental! I just posted this in Mako's thread:
Originally Posted by SteveLW
MWD helped me immensely in my situation, not only on what I should or shouldn't be doing, but also on learning to empathize with what my WW was going through. No one, not even a WW, wakes up in the morning and thinks: "Hmmmmm, what can I do today to destroy as many lives as possible?"
Nope, the WW is fueled by selfishness (which results in destroying lives) and emotion. There isn't a lot of intent involved, though sometimes there is since most WW feel hurt by their LBH. But in the majority of the cases the WW is simply trying to do things to find her own happiness again. That was one of the best pieces of insight that I received in my own sitch was that my WW wasn't doing what she was doing to hurt me, she was doing what she was doing in order to try to be happy.
I found MHL's post very insightful, R2C! Thanks for sharing it.
So I’m curious as to this line of thinking. Isn’t that the same as when people who are hungry that steal, loot and kill to eat. Are they not expected to face consequences for their actions?
The best consequences are for you to live your life to the fullest, and be the best authentic version of yourself.
Are you asking if their is a KARMA bus - Oh yeah and it hits them in the rear over and over.
“One of the best things you can do to dramatically increase the quality of your life is to start talking to strangers and making small talk everywhere you go. Developing your social skills and the ability to make small talk is essential to getting what you want in your career, social life and romantic life. When you can strike up conversations with total strangers anywhere and anytime, you can make friends, allies and create rapport with potential romantic prospects at will. This will grow your confidence and make you a people person who is easy going and easy to talk to. When people like you because you took the time to take a sincere authentic interest in who they are as a human being, it makes it really hard to say no to you. It’s hard to say no to someone we like. This gives you the power to influence others when you make it easy for people to like you.” ~ Unknown writer.
MC is a giant magnifying glass on the cracks in your relationship. That's why most recommendations are to stay away from it until both parties are committed to the relationship. You'll gain communication skills and learn things about your spouse that will create moments of deep emotional intimacy but that is laced with that magnifying glass. Two people who aren't fully committed to the relationship with certainty will imploded in MC.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I'm no expert at DBing, I know I did it poorly, but even if I had, it would have made no difference. What has made a difference for me is gaining my self-respect back. And I did that by not putting myself in a situation where my STBXW could treat me like dirt and I keep hanging round hoping for a change in heart.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Be curious about where others are coming from, and when they call you upset, try to practice validation and/or active listening to hear them out before explaining your perspective. Unless they’re abusive.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
There have been significant developments in the month since my last substantive update...
The financial negotiations ramped up ahead of our trial date. It seems no one (judge, lawyers, plaintiff, or defendant) actually wants a trial. Negotiations were a major stressor between caring for the kids, focusing on a major work assignment, and reviewing the two dozen page documents and back/forth of negotiations...it was a lot. Also, I'm meticulous and was analyzing everything and hoping in my head things closed out my way. However, the open issues to address at that point were narrow and it was in everyone's interest to come to an agreement and avoid trial.
In the end, although I never wanted divorce and my family to break up, I faired very favorably in the agreement...
Custody - Most importantly, 50/50 custody with no primary residence and successfully negotiated a "right of first refusal" so that the kids can't be dumped off to non-family members without the me having a chance to be with them instead. In practical terms this applies to the nights and I see my children significantly more than her due to before/after school and every Friday (regardless of who's week it is) as well as vacations over her time.
Spousal Support - Waived. She was entitled to some, but based on the relatively short (7 years) of marriage and both of us having an income it wouldn't have been substantial or long-running.
Child Support - Unfortunately our state is very unfair to me, but the law is the law. Despite having 50% nights and my caring for the the kids significantly more during the days, I have to pay her a consequential amount for the next 15-18 years, simply because I earn more. However, we did get a deviation from the presumptive amount, and my attorney says I got a "good deal", at least based on current law.
Financial Assets - I'm coming out with roughly 85% of the assets. Fortunately for me we reside in an "equitable" not "equal" distribution state. I proved a significant amount of pre-martial assets (which are taken off the top before the rest is split) whereas she was in debt...so I leave with most of the money. She got a slightly better deal on her car and house, but I won big-time on valuation of my house, last year's taxes, 401k, bank accounts...etc. Feeling confident my L and I crushed it in the negotiations (not sure if she even realizes it to be honest).
Emotionally the process was draining. I had a breakdown when reading over the settlement proposal for the first time. In the months prior I had been quite strong and loving life, but think the finality of it really hit me. Reading the document I started tearing up and went to the bedroom to lie down and cry. It was a cathartic release. Unfortunately I had to toughen up because it came no long before S6 needed to be picked up from school for the day. But definitely reflected on all the pain and destruction of W's affairs and the divorce process. It's sad. She must have such internal turmoil from her upbringing to cause all this pain to her husband and children. For my part, I'm just doing my best to work through it and move forward.
GAL - Started a 13-session religious-based separation/divorce support group program to discuss various topics (anger, depression, loneliness, dating, finances...etc.), so hopefully that'll be helpful, though my observation of the first week is that most folks are struggling more than me. I also started playing in an adult soccer league now with co-workers, which is good for GAL and exercise, though we're a bit older than some of the "kids" running around the field LOL. And of course still coaching S6's soccer and baseball teams. I'm also thinking of going back for my Master's degree online (starting one course in the Fall semester) as my employer will pay the cost, but want to make sure I can balance everything and keep the kids my priority. Also may tip my toes into the dating pool this Summer.
In terms of the actual legal process, we're not technically divorced yet. We both signed the settlement agreement, the judge cancelled the trial, and W's attorney filed the paperwork today. Next step is for the judge to review everything and sign off. That will probably be in the next week or two. At that point I will be officially divorced.
Of course we'll still 18 more years of child rearing to navigate together...
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Plan of Action for the Husband with a Wayward Wife
Following the initial bomb drop or discovery of an affair, you will be highly stressed and emotionally vulnerable. You will be in a state of reaction for a period of time, which places your decisions and behavior at risk. This emotional state can leave you experiencing waves of various feelings and moods. The natural reaction is usually to secure the relationship ASAP. However, nothing will immediately result in your favor until you can reach stability and have clarity in your own head.
I. Accept what you cannot control or change.
A. Accept that you cannot control your wife’s feelings, decisions, or actions.
B. Accept the fact that the bomb was not your wayward wife’s way of warning you that the marriage was in trouble. She was not trying to wake you in order to work on the marriage. It was her way of telling you it is too late and she is done with it. Do not act upon your urges to plead with her for another chance. Do not try to prove how much you love her. This is not the time. She doesn’t want it and will reject it.
C. Accept that no matter how badly you wish to correct your faults in the marriage and only want a chance to prove yourself as a better husband, she has moved past that point.
D. Accept the painful fact that your WW does not want to work on the MR. She does not feel in love with you, and is not the same person you married.
E. Accept that your WW is not going to snap back into the wife and mother that she was in the past. This is not going to be a short run. She has to go through a process, and there is no snapping back into normality.
F. Accept that you will not be able to control the lives of your children when they are with her. You will not be able to prevent her from introducing them to whomever she wishes, including her affair partner.
G. Accept the fact that you are the only person you can control.
II. Regain mental stability and clarity.
A. Let go of the fear of upsetting her. She has expressed her loss of happiness and love, and is considering a separation or divorce. At this point, she has fired you as her husband. Begin thinking of your WW and yourself as two entities.
B. Break your habit of rescuing her. It is not your responsibility to make her happy or fix things for her. Allow her to deal with consequences of her behavior and decisions. Stop putting forth effort to be her husband, in the practical sense.
C. Do not lie to cover up for her. This is her mess and her responsibility to clean it up. She will have to deal with the fallout without you recuing her.
D. Let go of your habit of over explaining or giving an account to your wife.
E. Do not make any rash decisions. Whatever decisions you are thinking about, run it by the DB board or your confidant, to get an unbiased opinion. You are vulnerable to your emotions.
F. Do not be concerned about what she thinks of you or your decisions/actions during this period. Whenever you catch yourself worrying what she thinks of your actions or reactions, remember your goal is to get your mind and emotions to a place of stability and clarity. As long as you are focused on what she thinks or feels, you aren’t focused on your goal.
III. Proactive steps
A. Separate yourself from the emotional drama of the WW. Put space between you and your WW. Do not engage in relationship discussions. Don’t try to secure the relationship by getting a commitment from your W. During this period, do not make any promises or agree to any changes that will directly affect your future. Do not talk about your feelings for her, or tell her you don’t want a D and how committed you are to saving the M.
B. Follow the 37 rules that are pertinent to your situation.
C. Focus on self healing, rather than relationship healing. Gather reading material, confide in someone who is professionally bound to confidentiality, meditate, take alone time outside with nature, listen to motivational tapes, post on the DB board, and listen to music that energizes you. Socialize with positive people, and those who honestly love you. Don’t seek communication, solace, or advice with her circle of friends or relatives. Stay off Face Book and other social media types. Take exceptional care of your physical wellness. It is not a sign of weakness to take medication, if needed. Talk to the man in the mirror every morning while shaving. You need to be his best friend.
D. Seek legal counsel to know your rights and where you will stand financially, should you divorce, pay child support, seek custody, etc. Learn what steps to take in protecting yourself in these areas, and anything else.
E. In cases of separation, have a child care/visitation schedule for the parents.
F. GAL!
G. No more Mr. Nice Guy! Stop being a pushover, and stand up for yourself. Appeasing a WW does not score brownie points.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
So my D is FINAL....In doing the occasional retrospectives on my MR, I have pretty clearly identified my mistakes and owned them....I encourage everyone to stay positive, GAL and don't let your sitch drag you down. Don't allow your identity to be defined by your WW or WAW. Take control of you life, all of it, grab it with both hands. Unless you believe in reincarnation, this is it so make the most of it. Don't be afraid of being alone for awhile, or of new experiences and R's. Don't let fear dictate your decisions. Put a smile on your face and watch how much better it will make you feel, it really works.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Something that help me with understanding my sitch was, laying all my cards on the table from both sides of my Marriage from the way I saw it and having people from the outside put some of their perspective on my Sitch.
Reading over your Sitch, this is what I see, none of it is an excuse for your wife, but it might help with your understanding of the view from her foxhole.
For the last SEVEN years your wife has been holding it down for the both of you. She has been going to work, paying the bills, coming home to most likely listen to you about your day. You have held a job a few times, but the burden has been on her. And most likely she didn't tell your about how bad her day was, because she was more sympathetic to what your were going through (just my thought, most people don't like to lay their burdens on people they think might have it harder than them). Than, you proposed ideas to help with the financial burden, but your ideas involved her helping with the work, not only helping but you needed her to front the investments to help get your ideas off the ground. Than after all that, you stated she was WAITING on you to get started, and you in turn was waiting on her.
So, to lay it all out She works She pays all the bills She takes care of you She listen to you come up with ideas about helping with the financial burden The idea involves her having to help She has to also front the investment She has to wait on you to get it started, because you are waiting on her
And she did this for a span of seven years, that's a lot to carry, and most people instead of communicating their unhappiness, they run, they grab onto the first sunlight that their minds and emotions find.
A lot was placed on your wife shoulders, and that load might just have gotten too heavy to carry and lift.
Lastly, about wedding VOWs. Most of make a VERBAL commitment at an alter during, for the most part a blissful time. Most wedding days are exciting and fun. When we make those commitments, we aren't thinking about all the burdens, that happen. So, when I see people reference wedding VOWs as and end all be all for staying committed, it makes me wonder how far from reality we have come. People change, situations change, life change, and so will people values, boundaries and thought processes.
Marriages are like playdoh and less like steel. While the people in the marriage are changing so are their values, boundaries, and outlooks. Marriages and relationship reshape all the time. You have to be able to have space to freely and openly communicate your boundaries and feelings, and if those spaces aren't present, than one or both of the people start to feel trapped. And once something is trapped, the moment it see's freedom it's out.
Keep working on yourself, My personal opinion is the biggest work for yourself is finding independence from having to rely on any person other than yourself.
Onward and upward
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
When W cheated/left she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.
That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!
You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.
Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.
With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
The rules of engagement with her at this point should be really simple: Do not initiate contact. If she does, then: If it is informational then you have no reason to respond. If it is a question, then answer it only after some time has passed (not right away) and in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
This is what it looks like:
Her: "I need to come by in the next couple of weeks to get my clothes."
INFORMATIONAL, no response necessary.
2 days later: HER: "Did you get the message about needing to come by and get my clothes?"
QUESTION. After 2 hours, YOU: "Yes."
2 days later HER: "You never told me when I can come to get my clothes, does 7/10 work?"
YOU, after an hour: "Yes."
HER: "Ok what time?"
After another hour YOU: "Anytime after 10am until 2pm. Then anytime after 5pm."
HER: Okay, I will be there at noon. Thank you."
No question from her, the exchange is over.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Oohhh boy this is my favorite newbie advice to give.
I'm a horrible sleeper in general even in times of calm. So when the EA started before H was willing to admit it I had already stopped sleeping. Once I kicked him out of the bed I was sleeping maybe 3 hours broken like you. So the meditation audio is great. But it's just one piece of a bunch.
One of the biggest things is our brains crave predictability. Even more so in times of stress so you need a bed time and a bed time routine. Let's say you pick a 10:30pm bed time you have to be in bed and done with your routine by that time every night. The routine I strongly recommend is a warm shower with a lavender soap about an hour before bed. There are lavender soaps out there that aren't so feminine. A good one is Dr. Bronner's. I don't know what the availability is for you where you are. But there are others. It may take some research.
After your shower no TV, phone, tablet, kindle what have you. Make a nice cup of tea. But not like a cuppa. A nice herbal tea no caffeine. Chamomile if you don't mind it. I strongly suggest ordering a weighted blanket if you don't have one. I also suggest a diffusor for essential oils. Put it in the bedroom. There are a million sleepy time blends. Just find one that you like. Start that when you make your tea so the room is already filled with the scent when you lay down.
You can add in or take out any steps as you like. It's your routine. But definitely stay away from screens at least 30 min before bed and do that routine consistently at the same time every day for a few weeks. I promise sleep with come easier. My last suggestion would be CBD oil in tincture form. High dose. Like 700mg or more. Take that about an hour before bed too.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
There seems to be some serious correlation to the left behind spouse not giving a rip anymore and moving on with their life and being super happy, focused and seriously living everyday to its fullest and the walk away spouse seeing this and wanting to come back. No promises or guarantees but it’s the best shot. And it can not be fake. They’ll see right through that.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
My H in the midst of his A told me: he never loved me, he only continued our relationship to the point of where we were because I forced him to, that our entire relationship was based on ultimatums from the get go, that was always his plan B, that I belittled him, that I went out of my way to make him feel stupid, that I was controlling, that I was insecure, that it was my fault he was driven to an A. He also said all kinds of things that would've opposed that also in the middle of the A. He has since officially recanted the things he said that he actually remembers, a huge chunk of the awful sh!t he said to me he doesn't even remember saying.
People in crisis whether is be a wayward spouse, MLC, milestone crisis, just done trying in the MR...whatever, are like caged animals. They will do anything, say anything, manipulate and behave in completely out of character ways to removed anything in the path between them and what they think will make them feel better. You are a person in that path. As personal as her behavior is to you, currently in this moment what she's doing isn't personal. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. Which is why every one keeps saying stop focusing on her focus on you. She isn't focused on you so why are you wasting all this time and emotional energy on focusing on her?
She loved you. Your love and the good times weren't a lie. She isn't the magic manipulator that you'd like her to be. Your whole life wasn't a lie even if it feels like it. And it does. It really, really does. It feels that way for all of us. And WS/WAS work really really hard at convincing the LBS, themselves and any one who would listen that the love wasn't real and/or the LBS was the problem. But that doesn't make it true. Right now it's really hard to extrapolate the objective truth of the nature of your relationship, and the reality is you may never find a place where you can see your relationship in an objective place so you just need to focus on what your truth was in the relationship. That you loved her and for a time she loved you. The rest is all confetti.
We all wish they would've said something instead of blowing up our MR and lives. But this is a wish in one hand sh!t in the other situation. Hindsight is always 20/20, but since it's not the hand any of us were dealt we can only control things we can control. Namely ourselves. Just focus on you, and know you're in good company feeling the way you do right now. If you can stop spinning, get some sleep, get something in your stomach, and breath you'll get through this.
We also all feel that loss. Even those of us who made it to recon. The man I'm married to now is not the man I married. He's not the man who had the A. He's not the man I recon-ed with. People change and grow all the time. Sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse. Sometimes it's worse then better. Sometimes it's worse then worse. I had to grieve MR 1.0. I had to grieve losing the man I thought I married. I had to grieve the future I thought we were going to have. I had to grieve who I thought I was. You lose a lot when something like this happens. All of it needs to be grieved. But your truth is your truth. You're life wasn't a lie simply because you're on an unexpected detour. It's ok if you're not ready to accept what's happening right now. You'll get to that in time. But if nothing else use that anger that's flaring up to refuse to let WW take what you know to be true away from you. You know there were good times and good things. You know you were good. Just hold on to your truth and focus on you.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
As you know mate, all of us felt like this and no one ever expected to be in this position, I have really had trouble with this. What has helped me accept and process is to ask myself questions inspired by my reading of Stoicism.
- The divorce rate is circa 50%, so why shouldn't this happen to me? - If there are so many people affected in the same way, and they all say after a few years things get better, why wouldn't they get better for me? - If this person is actively choosing not to be with me, how can they be the right person for me? - If I had a great life before this person was a part of it, why can't it be just as great, if not better, after?
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
When I feel strong emotions is often precisely when I bite my tongue. Must this be expressed now--or could it be expressed in an hour, in a day, when I've cooled down and organized my thoughts? It's not about being nice. It's about achieving your goals--a strong relationship with your kids and a working relationship with your XW.
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Her stopping indicates your co-parenting relationship with her is deteriorating. Is there anything you can do to improve that? The more you can do to bump up your relationship and not bump down your relationship, the more you may get "perks" like the above.
"Dear XW, I get I have not always been the co-parent dreams are made of. This transition has been tough. I want to do better. I don't expect a response now, but expect me to be more receptive than defensive the next time you reach out about the kids (e.g., something you'd prefer to happen at both homes or that I could do to make their lives easier.) Thanks, Me"
Based on prior communications, you seem to be allowed to communicate with your XW. I would not admit any faults that could be used against you in a courtroom. You could consult your attorney if you're unsure about your wording.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
What a great weekend with some amazing friends! Over the weekend, I was thinking about many of you that are here, posting and working sooo hard to save your marriages. I applaud you.
I wanted to share with you some of my thoughts over the past few weeks. Some of this may be a bit of a ramble; however, I believe that some of you may find it useful.
I have entitled this post….. The star is inside of you.
There is no magic bullet, magic pill, set of actions, set of words or specific post that can ensure that your marriage will be saved. Not one. The advice that you receive here will vary. Some will be very related to your specific sitch – some will not. I see a lot of people still focused on your spouse. Still focused on what they do, do not do, say, do not say, act, their actions. I understand this, I was there at one point too. What I feel is missing is the “work” that is needed to FIX YOU. We say often around here…”we didn’t break ‘em so we can’t fix ‘em”. So ask yourself – do you still believe that? Do you? Are you still worrying about every word you say, every step you take, every action you do? Do you still live a life walking on eggshells? Do you live in FEAR? Do you worry if you should leave the bedroom, take off the wedding band, make dinner, do the laundry, go to work? Does you every decision get run through a process where you think…….”what is my spouse gonna think or say”? Do you try and overcompensate for your crazy spouse? Do you do everything for the kids…to protect them? Have you totally devalued yourself? Have you tossed aside your own needs and wants? Do you walk around in guilt? Do you really think that…..that time, 10 years ago that your forgot the cranberry sause on Turkey day that it cause your spouse to wig out? If so, why?
I can go on and on about the stuff people have written, the post I have responded to and have read. Heck I was there too. IMO, the root of all of this is one word.
FEAR
When you come here…you are afraid, afraid of everything your spouse does, is doing, saying, etc. The answer to the issue though is NOT YOUR spouse – it really is YOU!
Stop for a second and ask yourself…..
Why am I afraid my spouse may leave?
Why am I afraid my spouse may divorce me?
Why are you afraid? Can you answer it honestly? Do you understand and know the root of YOUR fear? Yeah..yeah..yeah…I get it…”the kids”, “our family”, “our friends”……”the house”….”the finances”… I get it.
These ^^^ though are SURFACE answers. They do not get at the ROOT of the issue. Why are you so worry about the house? Do you think you will not be able to afford it? Do you think that you will not be able to maintain it? Do you love your neighbors? Do you just love that “woofy” your dog can walk around and all of your neighbor adore him? Stop for one second and ask yourself…… “what do these FEARS say about ME”. Can you see how you are devaluing yourself? Can you see how you may be assuming a deafist attitude? Can you see that in reality…..YOU WANT to CONTROL EVERYTHING.
CONTROL….. we like it. It is safe. It allows us to put everything in a little box. IMO, some levels of control KEEP US STUCK. They keep us from LOOKING INSIDE and facing OUR FEARS. So we cling to them. We figure out nice ways to hide behind them. Do you really think you can control everything? Do you really think that what you do, do not do, say, do not say….will CONTROL how your spouse acts? Now, I am not saying that your actions may not impact someone else. I am not saying that a love and compassion do not help heal, promote happiness, etc. No. What I am saying is that STANDING for your marriage does not mean that YOU ACCEPT that you are treated like dog poop. What I am saying is that YOU cannot spend every waking moment in FEAR of EVERYTHING YOU DO. At the end of the day, you cannot control your spouse. At the end of the day….NONE OF YOU, NO ONE ON THESE BOARDS, NO ONE….can make your spouse wake up, come home, become a better person. Some of you may say I know this. My response to you is….so what are YOU really doing for YOU.
IMO, doing the “work” is about facing YOUR FEARS. It is about, letting go of the notion that YOU can control everything. Doing the work…mean that you look inside. I will use my life, my journey as an example……
Some of you have read my journey, at least what was posted. I was an abused child. My mother was…well not the greatest. I was pretty messed up. At one point I become a drug addict. I was put away as a kid. I was homeless for a short period of time. I was broken. So…what does one do, HE CONTROLS. He controls how close he allows people to get. He manipulates his relationships, he keeps everyone at a distance. He carries around a ton of guilt. He lives in TOTAL FEAR and he USES CONTROL to manage that fear. He thinks….well if I am good H, or a good worker..that I can control the outcome of my job, my marriage. Now, I am not saying one should not be a good H, or a good employee. Nope. I am using this as an example of how sometime we control things. The control….keeps us from looking inside. Lemme give a few specific examples:
Specific to me….I tried to control everything. I’ve listed a few examples as reference for some of you.
I became super DAD. I did everything for my kids. My ex would leave at 5am and come home at 11pm. I did the laundry, cooked, cleaned, house work, a full time job, pick up and drop off the kids – pretty much a full time single parent. Although I do not regret it….i could have done things differently. Allow me to explain….. being as busy as I was with the kids, was in a small way, helpful in keeping me from looking inside. You see, I felt that I needed to protect them, I felt that I needed to control what they saw, what they heard, I wanted them to NOT have any pain from the divorce. I tried to CONTROL IT. ALL OF IT. Yes, some of you may say…it was for a good reason. My response to that is…was it? YOU really cannot control everything. The kids, will at some point FEEL this. They will feel the issue that are going on in the household. They will feel the stress of your spouse actions. YOU really cannot CONTROL it. You may think you can but all you are really doing is postponing it. Needless to say, I kept controling the sitch…take the kids here…make sure they did not see mom monster on me. The control prevent me from FACING MY FEARS. FEAR of what you may ask….
FEAR of…. Could someone like me really be a good parent, would the kids no longer love me, would the kids grow up to be F’ed up, fear of FEELING like maybe I was really a crappy dad, fear of what they would think of me? FEAR….that DEEP DEEP DOWN INSIDE…..I DID NOT BELIEVE IN ME! Yep…the deep issue that really needed to be deal with was ME. I did not believe in ME. I used everything else, the kids, my sitch, everything to HIDE from facing and learning about ME.
FEAR of…. Facing my role in the demise of the M. What did I do wrong? Why was all of this my fault or was it? Was I done? Why wasn’t I done? Why did ex wife have an OM? Was that my fault? To deal with some of these fears I controlled. I controlled how I felt. I did things, said things, did not do things….all for the sole purpose of getting my ex back. The bigger question was WHY? What was I afraid of? When I really started digging I did not like some of the answers that I found. I was fearful of: losing my house, change, change in my lifestyle, change in my income. Would I find someone? Could I find someone? Did I really love my w? What did love mean to me? Hell could someone like me even really love?
Finding the answers to these questions was painful. It required me to face every single one of these fears. It is no easy, fellow posters. Not easy at all. IMO, though….if you do not do it YOU will never really find your true self, your true happiness. When I started to dig, I realized – yes I did love my ex. Yes, I was capable of love, I also realized…..that I did not really KNOW how to LOVE MYSELF. That I based my own sense of SELF on what other thought, said, felt. That I had hid for a long, long time behind a viel of FEAR. When I finally learned how to love myself, learned how to ACCEPT EVERYTHING about myself….well then I was FREE. Free to choose for ME.
I have a seen a lot of poster post very similar questions ….
1) Should I leave the house? Should I leave the master bed room? My answer to these is this….WHY do YOU want to leave or stay? Are you staying because you are afraid? Afraid that you are not strong enough? YOU can! You are strong enough! You will survive this! Only though if you really look inside and UNDERSTAND why you feel the way you DO. It is only then, can you make choices that are NOT based in FEAR. It is only then that you can determine if you are done or not done.
2) Am I am done? I think I am done? I want to be done? MY answer – Define done. What does it really mean? Why does it even need a definition? Why put yourself in a box? Personally, I think it is our way of controling everything and as I have said….IMO, CONTROL is just a way for US to NOT have to FACE our FEARS. IMO, you can be done. You can change mind later. You actually do not even have to decide today, tomorrow….YOU can JUST LIVE. Live a happy life. Make a promise to YOURSELF that I CHOOSE happiness. Let go of the darn need to control everything. YOU CAN’t. Can you really control what your ex does? If you end up getting divorced – can you control what the judge says, his/her attny says – NO. YOU CANNOT. ACCEPT THIS! Instead of using the energy trying to figure out if you are done..use it to figure YOU out. Use it to understand yourself and accept your own fears. Use the energy to sit down and really figure out what you want and WHY? The star that you look for….the answer to all of YOUR questions is really inside of YOU.
3) Do I confront H or W about OM/OW? What do YOU really want to do? Better yet – why? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid they may leave? Are you afraid you will piss them off? Are you afraid they may file? Do you really think you can control it? FACE your FEAR! Why are you afriad? What is the root of the fear? Is it that you never really valued yourself? Is it that you are afriad if they leave how you will put food on the table? If so, is that who YOU really want to be? Dbing DOES NOT say you should be treated like crap. It is about health boundaries. Are you afriad to tell your spouse to stop texing OM/OW in front of you? Why? YOU matter! You are worthy of LOVE and RESPECT too. YOUR feeling do matter. Now I am not saying that you should confront today, tomorrow…what I am saying is UNDERSTAND why you are making the choice you are making. Cause if it is the result of FEAR – you have not address the real issue. FACE your fears.
I can go on and one with all sort of examples: The key point that I want to make to many of you is…..
Inside of you is a star! That star is your guiding light. Not me, not another poster. YOU. YOU are your guiding light. Ya just have to get past the fear. You just have to ACCEPT YOU, learn to LOVE you, Choose happiness over everything else. Find the issues and fears that you have and then slay them – one at a time. They may not go away today…but just knowing what they are EMPOWERS you to make choices that are TRUE to YOU. You are star! Every single answer to your question is inside you.
If you work on you – fully – if you totally commit YOU to YOURSELF, to healing YOUR core. You will be happy. You will have an inner peace and joy.
Stop looking at your spouse – focus on you and face your fears!
Life is a river…..it flows…it changes….. YOU can’t control it.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Regarding my "begging" comment, ok maybe that was too strong of a word.
What you will notice if you comb through these threads (mine included), if the LBS has not made the WAS work (and by work, I mean over a sustained period of time) to prove their sincerity in the desire to reconcile, one of two things will happen.
1. You will reconcile and there will be another BD after the honeymoon phase. 2. The WAS will drag things out, be uncommitted (even though they say they are), and buy more time to continue their affair or their desire to explore other options.
Someone mentioned the book Love Must Be Tough by Dobson. I highly recommend that book in this situation.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
The one that most folks here recommend is cutting the WS loose as soon as possible after BD. They want a D? Great, go get it. They want to ride off in the sunset with AP? Have fun. You're a horrible shrew who ruined their lives and they never really loved you anyway? Thumbs up emoji while you're off building your life back up.
Then the WS rides off into the sunset and learns that wow, things didn't all magically get better when I cut my LBS loose. The R with the AP goes south because it was all built on fantasies and lies and now you have to deal with a real relationship with another human, usually someone who is an @sshole of a person because they thought it was OK to get involved with a married person (with kids being the extra kicker for those extra-special a-holes). Slowly, the WS starts to realize that the problem wasn't in their S-- it was inside them all along. Then at some point-- maybe they hit absolute rock bottom-- they realize what a dumb@ss they are being and go back to their LBS asking (begging? ) for another chance. Many times the LBS has moved on at this point and doesn't want anything to do with their former lying, cheating partner. Other times they're open to R. But that is the basic path that most here will advocate.
Some of us took a different path which is uber difficult (though in fact is probably closer to how MWD talks about DBing in the book) and requires you to watch that sloooooooow transformation and realization in real life. Over many months. With no guarantees anything is going to actually work. You have to do very much the same thing in terms of DBing, focusing on yourself and detaching from your @hole spouse, even though you're still sharing a house. Planning for that amazing future that doesn't include him. Taking a good hard look at the parts of you that you might have lost during the M or behaviors you've picked up that are toxic and doing the hard work internally to make those changes. Spending oodles of time working on understanding your boundaries and how to enforce them. The difference between a boundary and attempting to control his behavior. Refocusing all that energy you're wasting on wondering what he is up to on your kids and really enjoying them. Stopping caring about what your WS is up to and just focusing on yourself, what brings you joy, what you want for your future regardless of the state of your M. This can be a lot harder with him in the house than if you are living on your own because you have very little leeway. WSs will breadcrumb like crazy and try with all their might to hook you back in. The dance of distance and pursuit is real. You just have to keep your head down and DB.
Originally Posted by may22
I purposefully did not read any piecing threads for months. I just started a couple months ago when Steve posted some links on my thread. I would highly recommend staying away from that board because what you need to do in piecing is very different from what you need to do in the thick of your sitch and you, my dear, are still very much in the thick of it. Patience is going to be your best friend here.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I know this is tough for you, it's been 10 years for me but I remember quite well how difficult it was being apart from my kids half the time. But here is the thing that I came to realize, my days of raising kids were numbered no matter what happened to my marriage. They don't stay kids forever, they grow into independent adults. The days of tickling them, giving them butterfly kisses, reading them stories and such are limited. Make the best of those times, but be mindful that you can't lose sight of who YOU are. You've got to pursue your own interests independent of your wife (current or future) and your kids. You have to have a compass that gives you direction outside of being a husband and father. And if you've already lost that compass, then you need to get it back.
So what does that look like, that "getting your compass back". Well it's a lot of what we preach here. It's getting out, GALing. It's finding things that YOU like to do, whether anyone else is interested or not. For me it was getting back into the hobbies I had set aside years before. Building and flying R/C planes, weight training, working on and riding motorcycles, building model cars, rekindling relationships with old friends. In addition I met new people through my hobbies and made new friends. I also picked up some new interests, ceramic sculpting in particular. The weeks I had the kids I was more focused than ever on making the most of that time. The weeks I didn't have them I dove into my GAL activities.
At first I was just going through the motions, but then I started liking it, then loving it, then it became my "new normal" and I wasn't sad anymore. I can't stress enough what a transformation this can make in you, I went from desperately trying to save my marriage at all costs and being miserable and depressed, and seeing nothing but negative karma everywhere I looked; to being content and happy and optimistic, and not even caring if my marriage made it or not. Now I am all for saving marriages if possible, but sometimes it's just not meant to be. And for me, the whole idea of DB'ing isn't necessarily to save your M, it's to put you into a position where you will succeed and be happy whether your M continues or not.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I didn’t let H back into my life, home or bed until I trusted him. Not forgiven — that’s a looonnngggg process — but trust. I needed to see that he was completely done with his A and feelings for her, I needed to know that he was remorseful, and I needed to believe that he was committed to doing the hard and uncomfortable work with me. I just couldn’t open up to him in any way until those were in place. And then, I allowed him to come home and start the process of piecing.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Do you know the roller coaster analogy? She's riding a roller coaster with a lot of highs and lows. If you tie yourself to her feelings then you ride it as well. When she's at the peak then you think things are improving and you get your hopes up. Then down her coaster goes crashing back to the reality that she's done and there's no hope and you with it. Your job is to stay off the coaster. You're on solid ground off to the side watching her go up and down and all around. A lot of her feelings, whether good or bad, are temporary. She might dangle the carrot of reconciliation one day and then reel it right back in the next. You want to avoid pinning your own feelings on her swings.
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
A lot of 2x4's get doled out on these forums, sometimes it's easy to forget that most of the people here are hurting and trying to work their way through this very difficult time, and need hope as much as or more than correction. And there is every reason to hope, people who have mastered DBing went on to better things whether they reconciled or not. No matter how much you are hurting now I completely and fully believe a year or two from now you will be a BETTER, HAPPIER person! It WILL happen, I can't guarantee you will reconcile but I can guarantee you will be in a much better place!
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Some people think that a WAW is hard, angry, cold. In a fog. There's more to her than that.
4 years ago, a woman laid in bed at night, not wanting to wake up in the morning. There was no way out. She couldn't divorce him. He would have visitation without her there to protect them. He had never hit them, but he surely didn't understand how to care for them. He didn't even know who they were.
She couldn't leave. She had no job, no way of putting food on the table for the children she loved. She had been dependent for so long, & she trusted this man to provide for her. Now she lay in bed, wondering who he was, & how she got her. These were not the choices she would have made, if she had a 2nd chance.
She couldn't talk to him. He couldn't hear her. She desperately wanted to share herself with him. He had walls up. She couldn't penetrate them. He seemed so content to work, watch TV, eat & sleep. Why didn't he want more, like she ?
She felt trapped. She resented herself for letting him treat her this way for so long. He told her often enough, he was a good husband. She needed so much more from him. She tried telling him, for years she tried, then she cried, she begged, she pleaded, but he couldn't hear.
He was cold, hard, in a fog.
She tried everything, she read every book. She prayed her heart out. She tried to be more Christ-like. Figuring if she set the example, he would follow.
She knew it came down to two choices. Her children's happiness, or hers. She would sacrifice hers. She decided to stay, & raise the children, with this man who would never know her. When they moved out, so would she. Then she would salvage what was left of her.
She put her heart in a dusty old box in the top of the closet. It was easier. She didn't hurt anymore, she was numb.
When she finally quit trying, & tried to fill her hours with distractions, he noticed. His fog was lifting. He wasn't quite so cold, so hard. She didn't care. It was too late. She was numb. Her heart was in that box. She vowed never to take it out again.
She stumbled through her days, crossing them off in the calendar. Wondering how much longer she could live this way. Did her children see her unhappiness ? She wondered, are they better off with a single happy parent, or with two parents who co-exist ? The torment was eating her alive. What to do ?
By now, she wasn't sleeping. Wasn't eating. She pulled away from all of her friends. She was dying inside. She desperately wanted, needed to be loved, appreciated, noticed, cherished. She was a beautiful fragile flower slowly dying without water, sunshine & air.
When no one was watching, she cried. She cried til she ran out of tears. She wanted it to be over, she wanted the pain to stop. Everytime she looked at her husband, it reminded her of the pain. The pain that was consuming her. She turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Anything to make the pain go away. Her friends ask her why she's losing so much weight. She wonders, why can't anyone see that I'm dying here. She doesn't try to tell the man she shares a bed with, remember, he can't hear her.
She finally writes him a letter. She says she is done. They need to raise their children, & he's the only one who can be their dad. Now he's fully awake & out of his fog. He's scared. He had no idea how bad she hurt. He thought things were good. He's been living in a separate reality from her.
He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.
The only place to go from numb is anger. He tries some more, she can see he's making changes. Now comes the buried anger. The anger that she wanted to express to him for all the years past. The anger she was afraid to show. He doesn't realize, angry is better than numb. He takes her anger. For 12 months he takes her anger. Sometimes he fights back, & when he does she goes numb again.
She's so scared to take her heart out of that dusty box. Numb is so much safer. Angry is so much safer. Does he know how hard it is for her. She knew the day that her children were born, that she would give her life for them. She just didn't know it would be like this.
Sometimes he tries to push her to heal faster. She's doing her best. He wants more from her at times. She's doing her best.
Some nights, the pain returns, & she remembers, & she just can't sleep. She's not numb anymore, and the anger is going away. She doesn't know how or where, but it is. She's so scared. Numb is safer. Angry is safer. If she gives in to her fear, to her sometimes overwhelming fear, everyone will call her a WAW. She wanted you to know. _________________________
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Co- parenting is a super long road with a contentious ex. I know I'm not the only one who's done this a long time on here so I'm sure others can attest to the same thing.
I think for right now you can set strict boundaries, your decree should have everything spelled out as far as time with the kids. And I'm sure there are penalties. I know it's more money but if she keeps violating the court orders you can take her back to court. It's an option...(I wish there was a shrug emoji). I don't think this is a good time to just kind of let things slide. You may need to dig into the DBing bag and dig out some validation. But you may want to look into some co-parenting classes or books, or difficult communication books. I'd strongly suggest Difficult Conversations. I had to read it for a business related thing but there's a lot in there for more personal convos with difficult subject matter or difficult people. (Crucial Conversations will pop up when you search it. I've also read that for professional reasons. I think the Difficult book is much better applied to real life, and I prefer the methods.)
In the immediate I'd say things like:
-I'd really rather not deviate from the court order right now. I'd really like to stay on schedule for a little while until we get settled in to this routine. Maybe we can discuss day exchanges because of fun plans in the near future once were a little more practiced at this.
-No, I won't be giving up my time unless you plan on a fair day exchange 1 for 1. This is what's court order. I can bend on this so the kids won't be disappointed but that means you need to bend too.
-No, we can't do that. I'm sorry, you'll have to disappoint the kids but this is what's court ordered.
-I don't think it's necessary to assume the kids are struggling with every little change. No one likes change, but kids are resilient and if this change proves to be a continued problem we can address this down the line.
-I'm not saying that these kids aren't struggling, I'm not really seeing the same thing when they are with me. Could you be more explicit in why you feel that way so I can understand better?
-I don't really understand why the kids would worry for me while I'm hiking(etc). On our time I don't concern the kids with where you are or what you are doing on your time without them. That's your time just for you. They obviously miss you but they never worry. Can you help me to understand their anxiety around that better? I'd like to address that with them myself.
This kind of stuff works with my ex, and the exes of friends. I don't know how your ex will take it, but it's worth a try. Warning though, conversations like this are hit or miss with my H's ex. But she's not real good with deescalating conversations. She takes validation and any attempt at cooperation as patronizing even when it's sincere if she's in the wrong head space.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
This board saved my sanity and helped me get through the hardest most painful period of my life. I truly believe that if I hadn’t found it, I would still be struggling. I am always happy when newcomers join as I know that if they stay here and take the advice that is offered (it is sometimes very counterintuitive and difficult to do), they may not save their marriage (although some will) but they will save themselves. I am one of the latter.
Reading your post, it seems like you are doing a lot of things right. Good for you for recognizing your part in things but please don’t go down the road of beating yourself up about it. The disintegration of a partnership is rarely just about one person. Sounds like you are handling it the best way you can and consciously giving your W the space she needs to figure things out. I know it is hard but keep it up. Congrats on making the changes you needed to. That’s a great step towards recon or a better life…hopefully both. (((HUGS)))
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Dropping expectations is kind of a life long DBing thing. As far as I know dealing with an unreasonable ex it's best to keep expectations for them on the floor and then you're always pleasantly surprised instead of angry or disappointed. At least that's what works for me, H and a lot of friends of mine.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Don't validate BS. If she comes at you with something is patently untrue feel free to correct her. I absolutely never validated things that were bald faced lies. But if she's just kind of emotionally dumping this is a good time for the phrase I loath "I'm sorry you feel that way." I think it's one of the most patronizing things you can say to another adult, but honestly when people get like this there's not much else you can say. You are validating but you aren't taking ownership of her feelings either. You're sorry she's frustrated and angry and that she thinks this is all your fault. But you're not sorry. Because you aren't the one and only reason she's feeling like that right now. You have nothing to personally apologize for.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I just wanted out as quickly as possible and the only thing I was willing to fight over was debt and our kid. The debt was fully his, and he wasn't capable of having her 1/2 time. I got lucky he just accepted it. Our D process went really quickly. I literally was living like I was 20 while I was about to turn 30. I had nothing but I had my freedom and my sanity and that was worth way more to me than having to start over.
Point of all that being, seriously, financial health is temporary. Mental health leaves a much deeper longer scar and it costs a lot on the back end to fix, at least here, you know our health care isn't the greatest...lol. I needed my mind and soul intact more than I need things, a healthy bank account, or even what I was technically owed. Do what's best for you regardless even if it's not the best money move. If you just want this over and that $500 gets you there faster, by all means pay it. If in the midst of the divorce it's easier on your stress levels to give her something she wants even though she really shouldn't have it just do it. Kids are a hill to die on. Poverty is a hill to die on. If it won't starve you or make you homeless. If it won't harm your kids or your relationship with them there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing things that on the surface don't look like they are in your best interest. You know what's best for you. Trust that.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Dealing with emotionally volatile exes when you have kids together is a long, long road. You need to use all the tools you have. No response is one tool. Validation is one tool. There are many other communication tools that a person needs to learn and use when dealing with difficult people and difficult subject matter. Over the course of the D and the rest of your lives that you have to co-parent you need every single tool at your disposal. And sometimes you need to use more than one in one sitting. No response is just a useful as validation.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
1. What are your current GAL activities? 2. You are correct in your first post in this thread - you do not want someone who doesn't want you. 3. Your kids will come out of this just fine. Be the best parent on the planet and make it so. 4. Keep the house if financially possible, you will be happy you did. You can always reevaluate later. 5. Response to your first post - No fighting with your W. Always stay cool and in control. No fighting. 6. No mention of counseling or reconciliation. Shhhhhhh. 7. Also as to W, STFU about anything other than business/logistics. 8. Re: any request from W you are not prepared to discuss - "I'll have to think about that". 9. ABA Always Be Attractive. Don't be unattractive. Be a strong man. Be strong. 10. You are not a victim. 11. When your W gets COVID again and wants to rethink D because she's sick, be skeptical. 12. Hey have I asked you What are your current GAL activities?
Hang in there.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
-Very few people get out of a divorce rich. Most people take a pretty hard monetary hit. But money is temporary. In a year or two you'll be settled and none of this will matter the way it matters right now.
-Please consider the 5-5-5 rule. When you're struggling, worrying, feeling a little low for yourself ask yourself: will this matter in 5 days? 5 months? 5 years? If the answer is no then don't spend more than 5 mins worrying about it. With my teenagers I drop that down to 5 hours, 5 days, 5 weeks. (Teenage girls a just a dream, everyone should have one.) It's a really easy way to give yourself perspective and to keep yourself in check.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
When I was still really struggling with things, I had about a dozen or so sticky notes with inspirational quotes and personal goals stuck to my mirror. I’d read them every morning before I went to work. I also had a mantra that was introduced to me by DnJ…the ever popular “choose better not bitterâ€. I said that over and over to myself countless times. I also wrote some on a list in my phone so I could read them throughout the day when I found myself going down a negative path. It really helped me to stay on track.
Some of my faves…
“It is truly a frightening thing to face, see, and embrace the unknown, but you can do this. all it takes is opening your mind and heart to the vast and endless possibilities of what you can become within yourself.â€
“He REPRESENTS stability, validation, and a resumption of your ability to have control over your future. That is really what you want, you want what he represents to you based on where you are right now. Step back and realize he is NOT those things.â€
“Boundaries are the first line of defense to preserve your self respect.â€
“Acceptance, forgiveness and healing are required in order to become completely whole within yourself.â€
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
You are who you've always been. And you are the person you've always wanted to become. When you're sitting in that anger of yours thinking about all that stbxh has taken from you, focus in on the parts of yourself that were robbed or compromised to keep him happy, to keep him quiet, to keep him off your back, or just general to keep him. Think about all the times you've been happiest in your life. Who were you then? What about her do you miss? Think about all the things you've always wanted to be or do and have had to put on the back burned because it didn't fit into your old life, or the old version of yourself. H may have taken a lot from you, but he didn't take who you are at your core and he didn't take your future.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
) for another chance. Many times the LBS has moved on at this point and doesn't want anything to do with their former lying, cheating partner. Other times they're open to R. But that is the basic path that most here will advocate.