Rebuilding and renewal - 1

[job]

I, too, agree w/kml and bttrfly about the reminders of the things in the buildings.

What I find very interesting is how quickly she's packing up her stuff this time around and getting read to be picked up on Thursday. Didn't she take her sweet time packing up stuff and waiting until the last minute to get the stuff hauled over to your home and some of it being off loaded in the night?

Stick to your timeframe about all of that stuff being moved off your property. I would definitely be taking a look in the buildings and reminding her that her stuff is in there as well and needs to go.

I truly feel sorry for the boys. It's almost like she has left them to fend for themselves and yet, she's right there, Johnny on the spot for the girls. It's any wonder her oldest son is living far, far away and not getting involved in her drama. As for the pets, she shouldn't take in any more pets because she gives me the impression that she doesn't care about them as long as her boys are focused on taking care of them. I pray that the boys father steps up and works with them because they truly are the lost children in all of this.

Andrew, you will feel a load lifted off your shoulders when that truck pulls away w/all of her stuff.

[AndrewP]

Thanks all. The packing does indeed continue in a rather methodical fashion. I've been shifting things that are staying like this morning one of the blanket boxes I built that has my spare wool blankets in it, out of the way and from under her piles of stuff. While I do have a fair amount of trust in her not taking things that she shouldn't, I can't trust others who will be operating with poor guidance to just not pick up stuff that's piled together and load it on the truck. S doesn't agree but puts on her "tolerant" expression that she's used a lot with me over the past number of months. I'm confident that she's annoyed that I'm not just "trusting her" to sort through things herself. She is very much the "I know what I'm doing and just do it this way" sort and some of our conflicts in the past have been when I disagreed with her and had my own opinions. Which caused anger, tears and finger pointing to be sent my way. A tactic that I eventually recognized as DARVO.

I, too, agree w/kml and bttrfly about the reminders of the things in the buildings.

What I find very interesting is how quickly she's packing up her stuff this time around and getting read to be picked up on Thursday. Didn't she take her sweet time packing up stuff and waiting until the last minute to get the stuff hauled over to your home and some of it being off loaded in the night?

I always knew that she was a capable person but as I have learned, doesn't use that potential in her day to day life. I think that it helps that here she has had room to spread out and that things aren't so packed in not to mention dirty, abandoned and broken like a lot of what was in her apartment. How I didn't recognize her as a hoarder with that mind-set I really don't know. I just considered her overwhelmed and put down the broken and abused possessions as being the fault of the kids - which a lot of it was - but then it was also just left and neglected.

There were "numerous" trips to the landfill as part of the process of her moving out of her apartment and even here there were bags of things to throw out, some of it just literal garbage that she moved in with her. That certainly slowed down the move-out process along with the effort needed to actually go through stuff that she had accreted there.

This time as well she seems to have a bit more of a budget and has invested in quite a lot of new boxes rather than just whatever she could find for free. A lot of clothes and such have apparently been packed into garbage bags again.

My ex-wife was a fan of those organizing / hoarder shows. Interestingly they bothered my son so much that he refused to watch them. She and I used to though and I think part of it for her was to show to herself that she "wasn't that bad". One fairly common thread though is how "normal" these people are outside their environments. I still believe that S loved how organized and tidy this house was before she moved in. And perhaps did feel that with enough storage and enough time that it would magically be organized and tidy even with all her stuff in it. But was perfectly fine with not having the habits and attitudes that support an organized and tidy lifestyle. And from what I was able to eventually gather, resented those who tried to impose those habits on her.

The outbuildings are as organized as they can be. The stuff in the garage and the large tarp shed where the boat is stored is 90% all her's so I'm not too worried about that. I shifted the "S" stuff back in the summer into the middle of the garage as a necessity so that I could get to my ladders so it's pretty obvious. The boat's been shifted over and so all the furniture and stuff that is piled in there can be easily accessed. She's "unlikely" to mistakenly take a 23' long gaff-rigged sloop with her. The only questionable bit is in the garden shed but again, there's not much that there could be mistakenly taken except perhaps for some folding chairs which I rarely used anyway.

One thing I know about S is that she has no patience for being "man-splained" to and believes she knows everything she needs to know. I did talk to S18 and told him briefly about where things are and how to prop the doors open for carrying.

I continue to have few worries about things leaving that shouldn't. I have no information on what S is planning on taking or not but have told her that I have plans for replacement tables and stove. I was actually looking this morning online and there's a local appliance dealer who has a new stove for about $650 that would do just fine and is the same price as the "big box" places.

As far as the timeframe goes, this appears to be expedited beyond my expectations. Which I'm more than fine with. I had anticipated a long drawn-out process - similar to as you pointed out job - on how she moved in.

I truly feel sorry for the boys. It's almost like she has left them to fend for themselves and yet, she's right there, Johnny on the spot for the girls. It's any wonder her oldest son is living far, far away and not getting involved in her drama. As for the pets, she shouldn't take in any more pets because she gives me the impression that she doesn't care about them as long as her boys are focused on taking care of them. I pray that the boys father steps up and works with them because they truly are the lost children in all of this.

I can't fix them. The boys' father may step up a bit more because he would love to stop paying child support but he has poor life-skills as well. S13 is probably staying with him and that may continue because he likes the even more rule free life-style there. I do feel though that both boys as well as D19 are headed down paths that may not end well for them. D19 will undoubtedly survive and may do well because she well knows she has the "pretty" card to play. S18 has told me that one of the reasons he things she and her boyfriend got back together was that because from a very early age she "had" to have a boyfriend - any boyfriend. Something she undoubtedly learned from her mother. But she also has a cold side to her and I would not be too surprised if she found a sugar daddy before too long. She's not worked since last summer outside of a bit of modeling and likes nice things. But yeah - not my kids - not mine to fix. Even when I imagined that S and I would be a couple, I made it clear that I wanted no responsibility for raising her kids.

Andrew, you will feel a load lifted off your shoulders when that truck pulls away w/all of her stuff.

This purge out will be good. It's unreasonable to think that this will be all but who knows? We all will on Thursday evening. Personally I expect to come home to a house with no tables, possibly no stove, all the other stuff out but S18, his packed room, rabbits and cats still here. I can feel the "cloud" in the house at present and just keep telling myself that it will lift in a few days. It helps that S stays in bed until early afternoon and our overlap is minimal.

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Just got off the phone with my GP. He's going to prescribe me Ativan but agrees with me that if I can cope with breathing exercises etc that that is preferred. Given my family history and current state, being careful about heart health is also top of mind.

I have my first IC appointment late this afternoon. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm not hoping for any real break-throughs but some insight in how to deal better with things like being conflict avoidant and tempering my built in default trust of people is hopefully going to be a starting point. I don't want to pre-judge too much - I'll tell my stories and see what she thinks.

On another note - my daughter, her 2 cats and husband have made it half-way up California on their way to Seattle. All is going well thus far.

[kml]

I've been shifting things that are staying like this morning one of the blanket boxes I built that has my spare wool blankets in it, out of the way and from under her piles of stuff.

This is good, you can't rely on the kids and any helpers they bring to be diligent about identifying what is yours and what is her, so your stuff should be well out of the way, especially anything that's in a box, because lord knows you'd never find it in her stuff again if she took it by accident.

As for your son being bothered by the Hoarder shows - I imagine if you asked him he would tell you that he recognized his mom as a hoarder, and was bothered by it. It probably really bothered him to see you living in an even worse hoarding situation. I wonder if the kids knew that about her and that's why they tried to warn you off?

You're right, btw, about hoarders being able to present as normal to the outside world. The thing to work on in therapy for you is why you didn't recognize it when you saw her apartment?

(Btw I'm not shaming hoarders - it's a form of mental illness that is very difficult to treat. )

[DonH]

Just got off the phone with my GP. He's going to prescribe me Ativan but agrees with me that if I can cope with breathing exercises etc that that is preferred.

Do you hear the alarm bells ringing that I do? I’m not a doctor, never try to be. But Ativan is smack dab in the category I hoped he would not go - benzodiazepines. Is this an older doctor? Is this just a one time thing to give a try with for a short period? Again, I’m not a doctor but there has been a HUGE push away from these medications for long term use. The newer docs often will not go near them. Some of the older docs have just not gotten the memo. These can create more problems than they solve and have done exactly that for far too many people. 30 every six months is no big deal. But sadly how this can go is one a week and no more, until it’s 2 a week - but no more. Then all of a sudden it’s one every other day but that’s it - absolutely no more. All of a sudden it’s one a day, but this has to be it, the max, absolutely no more and before you know it you need them to get through the day and by this time it’s too late. Coming off of them can be h*ll and unlike opioids, can be deadly if stopped abruptly. There are so many better ways to manage anxiety than benzodiazepines. That went out many years ago.

I don’t want to scare you away from treating this. Just please Google benzodiazepine abuse or benzodiazepine addiction. Just read up on it and know the risks. Many doctors won’t go there anymore or only for 2 to 4 weeks. These are controlled substances and included in the prescription monitoring databases for a reason. Just please be very careful. Again, if he gives you 30 with no refills, I would not worry for now. If he gives you 90 with 2 refills - PLEASE THINK ABOUT THIS VERY CAREFULLY.

Again, I’m a paramedic, not a doctor. But I’m also 11 years in recovery from addiction. You will not find a single person who knows me who would have ever believed this could happen to me - including me. Yet it did. You may well do fine with them. Many just do not. Just please be one an informed patient about this course of treatment. There are safer methods.

[AndrewP]

Thanks Don - He's giving me 20 with no refills and expects it to last a year. Given your personal experience I am taking your warnings seriously.

He's a younger doctor who took over the practice from my old GP who is the same age as me a couple of years ago.

He seemed to appreciate that my first go-to will be breathing exercises.

[DonH]

Just never fails to crack me up - use a 3 instead of an e - still looks like the same word found in the holy bible, still pretty much is the same word found in the holy bible and said in church, but since it's spelled with a 3 rather than an E it's now okay. Rationalization really is the second strongest human drive - as my favorite talk show host has claimed for years. Plus I got an afternoon chuckle so that's always good.

Ah Hem, back to the original topic, yeah 20 for a years use is not dangerous. So I don't want you to now think that you can never take one. When and if the anxiety is really bad, you can take one. You may hate how they make you feel. Some people do. It's just when you love how they make you feel that you need to worry. My gut tells me that once the stress is removed from your life, so too will the chest pain and anxiety. And if so, the need to use any medication will go away too. If not, or if you find this returning sometime down the road, just know there are safer meds that you can take that won't make you feel "funny" or different but you'll just notice "hey I don't have near as much anxiety or chest pain as I used to." Nothing inappropriate of him giving you 20 a year. It's sometimes as much done to make patients feel like the doc is doing something. They used to do that with antibiotics, until that started to create other issues for us.

Anyhow, while my original caution still holds, don't let that keep you from using one when you really need to. As long as you don't have an easy, copious supply, you should be fine. It's not like all patients develop addiction and you likely are in the camp of those who don't.

[AndrewP]

Happy Wednesday all. Possibly the final day of in-house separation. Boy am I looking forward to this being over.

At 10:30 S is still in bed - no surprise. She was in bed until mid-afternoon yesterday. I've heard beeping and whatnot from the front bedroom she's in but no activity. She actually washed the dishes yesterday as I was leaving for my IC appointment at 3:45pm. A number of them she and her son had dirtied but still - it was nice. They were still in the drying rack when I got home after 8:00 pm but still ...

I also picked up my prescription yesterday. Tiny tiny pills. I put 2 in the sealed waterproof case that has my emergency aspirin that I always carry with me. I wrapped them in plastic so that they can be found and so that they won't interact with / be damaged by my aspirin. We'll see if I ever take one. The pharmacist made time to talk to me about the prescription and seemed pleased when I said "Having a bad day, have a beer. Having a really really bad day, take a pill and no beer."

Had my IC session yesterday evening. I'm not sure what to make of it. A fair bit of ground was covered, digging into my FOO - nothing really to see there other than my Dad's tendency to also believe in people and how that caused him a lot of grief. She had me rate a few things on a scale of 1-10 like how I felt about my inner voice (I like me - even when I mess up), how well I did on self care (a number of solo activities that give me joy) and seemed to think that I'm a pretty balanced person. Fooled her perhaps? I'm perhaps a bit less of a basket case than many other first time patients though.

I was in there for about 2 hours - she likes talking as well. There were some visualizations she used on how people can be givers and takers that made a lot of sense to me. She seemed supportive of the fact that I chose to end the relationship with S and that that was a good thing to do. Nothing much on how to avoid similar situations in the future but it was the first appointment and there was a lot of ground to cover.

I did talk a bit about my worries on how I am vulnerable to people who push things through like I believe S did. She always got upset when I tried to slow things down and pushed for me to have her in my life faster than I should have allowed. And then pushed for my son to move out and her and her crew to move in, again faster than what I had intended and faster than what I wanted. I was complicit because I had the agency to stop that and didn't. I think it will do me well in all aspects of my life to learn how to better say "no" to people. I recently had a couple of episodes with work that showed me that while I'm better at saying no there, I'm still not good enough.

I like her. She certainly seems to know what she's doing and has a narrative style that works for me. She's going to send me some follow-up information - and the bill. I did ask at the end of the appointment, like I do in all meetings "so what are the next steps" and she didn't have much of an answer for me. We'll see if she thinks there is value in future sessions.

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S and I presume S18 weren't here when I got home but more boxes seem to have been filled. I think S has used up her initial ambition which is a problem for her. She's good at bursts of activity but can't sustain it. She did go through the boxes of kitchen stuff that I already packed - reasonable. Most of her mugs and glasses are packed. There are boxes stacked "everywhere" throughout the house. There is still a significant amount that has not been packed as well though. There is a "lot" of stuff. I've taken pictures to remind me on how bad this is.

I'm not sure what her plans are for moving day tomorrow but I would hope that she's going to be up early and getting things finished up. I'm going to leave the door unlocked when I leave for the plant.

I did see a list that she had where she has some things that presumably she doesn't want to forget. Bookcases, recycling bins (tricky because tomorrow is garbage day) and S18 is also on that list.

I'm staying out of it all and will deal with whatever I have to deal with tomorrow. Walking through the hallway with cat litter crunching under foot from her messy cats (yes I use a tracking mat) just reinforces how much I'm going to like having this place back to myself.

I might finally get my Christmas tree on the weekend. I've put it off because of the expected activity around the house.

On another note I actually got a take-out pizza for dinner last night. The first one in quite a while - and then felt the buzz from all the salt on it for hours through the night. We used to get that a couple of times a week because I didn't want to cook for everyone and S just plain never wanted to cook either.

[harvey]

She actually washed the dishes yesterday as I was leaving for my IC appointment at 3:45pm. A number of them she and her son had dirtied but still - it was nice. They were still in the drying rack when I got home after 8:00 pm but still

I find it funny that you noticed this and it seemed to bother you. It seems you are very particular about how things should get done. Maybe something to work on or find somebody who doesn't mind being smothered. I hand wash my dishes every day, and I always leave them to dry overnight to ensure they are fully dry. To me, dishes being in the drying rack at 8:00pm after being washed at 3:45pm would be normal.

[job]

Don,

Glad you got a chuckle over the number 3...I have now changed that number 3 to an asterisk. Sorry that the editing tends to bug you..just following the suggestions made by other moderators, both in the past and currently, as well as what the Administrator advises the moderators to do....but I will be sure that the language will now reflect asterisks or another character on the keyboard. However, if you think it would be better for the moderators to delete the words entirely versus changing the lettering a bit, I will be happy to pass along your comments/suggestions on to the Administrator.

Andrew,

I am glad that you kept your IC appointment. I hope that your therapist will be able to shed light on whatever it is that you are discussing w/her.

S has a big day tomorrow. Sure hope she can get out of bed early enough to get going on this move. Then again, maybe the truck and the "help" won't come until afternoon. I can't even imagine the amount of stuff that she's moved to your place. I'm sure the first thing you will enjoy is not walking on crunchy cat litter. Those cats must be really messy because you never talked about Liz and Amy being messy. Those little girls were/are classy.

I am sending positive thoughts your way...because tomorrow is going to be very interesting.

[kml]

I suggest you offer to help boxing things up tonight, otherwise she's gonna end up leaving stuff at your place. The more things are boxed up the better they will fit into the truck. This is a time to let go of your "trust other people to do the right thing and pick up after them when they don't" philosophy into a more pro-active "it benefits me to make sure all her stuff goes with her so I'm gonna make sure it all gets boxed up tonight so it will get out of my house".

As for the dishes in the drying rack thing - that does seem to depend on your family culture. Some people dry them right away, others use the drying rack for just that - drying. I was always of the leave them there drying and put them away the next day type but CMM prefers to dry them right away. We have a working dishwasher again now so it doesn't matter much but will admit that with 3 sets of people making 3 different meals in my kitchen it is more polite to dry and put away the dishes in the drainer. I wouldn't bother if our kitchen use wasn't so fragmented.

Sounds like you have a good idea of what you need to work on with this therapist - your difficulty saying no and setting good boundaries.