Maybe you can add the post pertaining to your daughters again. I missed it. I went back several pages in your last thread, but I couldn't find it.
I've been here for two years, and I'm still on thread #3. I understand not getting a lot of responses, but I realized that it appeared that I didn't need a lot of help. The people that are really struggling get the most responses. Plus, I didn't feel comfortable responding to other people's situations at first. I think the more you interact on other people's threads, the more people respond to your thread.
I liked that you showed more humility and vulnerability with your last post. May seems to be able to get you to open up. Humility is always good. Vulnerability is good on this forum. I agree with R2C that a lot women seem to be turned off by too much vulnerability. They want a man who is emotionally strong.
Here I thought I was empathetic towards you, Tom! Crickets. Just kidding. I'll work more on my empathy. I'll generalize and say women are more empathetic than me. I think all men need to work on it. My girlfriend took a test, and the results stated that her number one quality was empathy, so I have a lot of catching up to do. I'm going to let others try to help you out with empathy. The women can probably help you out the most
My question for you, Tom is: are you used to winning? I get the feeling from your posts that you are used to winning, that you are competitive, and that you are a little tightly wound. I wonder if that plays into the difficulty you are having with the divorce. Part of it may be you feel like you lost at the marriage thing. I know I did. I felt like a failure, and I hate losing.
FYI - nobody on this forum is getting paid to help others. We all came here as broken people looking to save our marriages. I've stuck around because the help I received was valuable to me and because I'm interested in knowing how the situations turn out for the people who were on the board at the same time as me.
Harvey, you're pretty close to being on target there. Yes, I have been in senior leadership at companies for a long time; I am also a part-time college instructor in management and leadership. While I am not accustomed to winning per se, I am accustomed to being in charge and and being front and center with groups of people. So .... when a bunch of new DB friends are virtually standing around me with their arms crossed, glaring at me, telling me to confess my word crimes ... yes, I don't give in to demands like that. Such is my nature. Think that one through a minute. If you raised kids, and you demanded they say "sorry" or insisted they admit to a failing, how effective was it?
And absolutely yes, I feel like I lost at the marriage thing. I've said multiple times I feel like an utter failure at the thing that I treasured most -- my marriage and my intact family. I weep about it regularly, still, 14 months later. I expect that my children will be impacted permanently by this, even though they are all legal adults now. At our 20th anniversary, the ex and I renewed our vows and dedicated the ceremony to the kids and to "being a family forever!" [Whoops, the other half forgot about that promise, I guess.]
The kids and I have had several deep family meetings about things since BD last September. While we always had family meetings, since they were small, these were unique in that for nearly the first time, Mom wasn't there and I went 100% vulnerable with the kids. Bared my soul. Talked about my failures, about the hopes and dreams that were dashed (yet not blaming their mom). My critics might find this hard to believe, but this was huge movement on my part. The four of us were all crying together.
I'll get into more details about the empathy part in another comment here. I need to give it some thought.
Final point, Harvey. Please don't talk about me in my own thread. You and Ben went on like this a week or so ago, talking about me as if I were invisible or unable to understand English. To me, this is unconscionably rude. It's bad enough to talk about someone behind their back. It's worse to do it in front of them. I ask this very politely. Talk directly to me if you want to figure me out. Thanks.
I expect that my children will be impacted permanently by this, even though they are all legal adults now. At our 20th anniversary, the ex and I renewed our vows and dedicated the ceremony to the kids and to "being a family forever!" (Whoops, the other half forgot about that promise, I guess.)
Your kids will be okay but they'll do much better without being exposed to bitterness. I'm sure you'll say that your comment in parentheses was just a joke, but it comes across as bitter. Acceptance is the first step on the road to forgiveness. And forgiveness is the universal remedy for bitterness. Do you forgive your wife for leaving you? Do you accept that she had the right to leave you?
I expect that my children will be impacted permanently by this, even though they are all legal adults now. At our 20th anniversary, the ex and I renewed our vows and dedicated the ceremony to the kids and to "being a family forever!" (Whoops, the other half forgot about that promise, I guess.)
Your kids will be okay but they'll do much better without being exposed to bitterness. I'm sure you'll say that your comment in parentheses was just a joke, but it comes across as bitter. Acceptance is the first step on the road to forgiveness. And forgiveness is the universal remedy for bitterness. Do you forgive your wife for leaving you? Do you accept that she had the right to leave you?
No, Scout, don't read into my comment ... remember I am an emotional guy! I put that in parentheses just for emphasis and to make the connection with my children and how it will impact them. I found the renewal of vows to be very meaningful, for me and the kids at least. I wouldn't be surprised that they still remember that moment. I haven't breathed a word about it, though.
I have been studious about not being angry at, or rude about, their mom. They know the facts. Mom walked out without notice. I'm not sure my ex has been as scrupulous about not putting me down -- my oldest daughter ripped into me a year ago at Thanksgiving, no doubt quoting her Mom. Fine. I let it go and did not fight back.
Actually ... during the first 15-20 days after BD I was a total wreck. I probably did say a lot back then. But it was never anger, it would only have been complaining ... talk of betrayal ... openly wondering why she would break up a good family. Just wanted to set the record straight. But since then? No.
I talk casually about her all the time. The kids are staying with me now; I'm in the house and the ex is in some apartment across town. It's hard to not talk about her when, for example, we reminisce about Christmases in the past. But it's only casual references and passing references ... e.g., "Remember when ..." or "Wasn't it fun when ..." or "Remember Mom's favorite recipe for ..."
I have forgiven her. I have written her letters telling her I forgave her and asking her forgiveness for what I did to drive her away. It was too little too late, of course. I even told her I forgave her for the dirty trick she and her lawyer tried to play on me, in a letter last December. I have conveyed this all multiple times since I joined DB, by the way. And, frankly, I was surprised at myself that it was so easy to forgive her, to not be angry. But I was in prayer about it, and counseled with many old and new friends about it. It didn't alleviate the pain much, but it did make me settled in my own heart.
I, too, could develop more empathy. Like you, I have daughters. How are you working on that with them? Would love the advice.
Thanks, Spiral
Spiral, thanks for weighing in. I need to reflect on this but I'll give you a short reply. In the past, I was the one to look up to, to go to for advice. If someone with brawn was needed, of course all four members of the family came to me. I liked this role. I like being protective of those I love, of having them look to me for assurance. There were some times when that wasn't easy. I recall some driving vacations when we got lost and ended up in some pretty sketchy areas (this is all before iPhones and map apps). I had to pretend to be brave and OK when I was pretty terrified myself (one late night motel clerk even pulled out a firearm when I walked in!).
But when BD came, I couldn't even pretend to be that man anymore. And I could not look in the eyes of my children (two were away at college so that was over FaceTime) and maintain a facade. So I realized that I needed to be genuine, more genuine than ever before. I did what psychologists call "go to your gut." I talked about my feelings like never before. I talked about what made me happy, what made me frightened. I used those words to convey to my kids how much I honor who they had become and my confidence in their future. It really was a game-changer, for me at least. I had never been so open, so vulnerable.
Another way is that I let them have the last word. I had to raise three children, all smart and strong-willed. You can't let pandemonium reign in a house like that! Yes, I won most arguments! [Stop laughing out loud, Scout and others!] A couple years ago, now that they were all past age 18, I stopped being "Dad" all the time. But after BD came, I totally gave in. I am deferential and respectful, even if I feel they have strayed from how they were raised, or clear examples of right and wrong. I remember what I was like at the same age, anyway.
Finally, I do a lot of affirming of what they say. They would ask questions when they were younger, and as a part-time academic I would give longish and fact-filled replies. When they were younger they would hold onto my every word. But now? I just let them talk. I affirm what they say. I ask a million questions, and let them do most of the talking.
