I do not see how calling you Tommy would be condescending. But OK, I will take your word for it. I believe you are hurting, and hurting badly and just like sometimes a wounded animal will bite the hand that tries to help it, I believe you are biting at the people offering assistance.
When I read back, Tom, I see LH taking the time to break down your posts and ask you questions and give some helpful feedback. I’m not at all seeing where he asked hit and run questions. I see kindness and validation. He’s also asked some though provoking questions to get you to think and dig deep. What you think is a hit and run question is actually something for you to reflect on and see where you can grow .
Look more carefully, Ginger, you'll see that I would provide careful replies and he wouldn't continue the dialogue. That would have been helpful. As for kindness, I think he was hard on me (and obnoxious, e.g., calling me "Tommy") from the start. Not appreciated. Why don't you ask him how many other times he has given a newb a diminutive or childlike name. Then make your own call.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
In you, throughout this thread, I see defensiveness and stubborness, and at times ignorance.
Well, no one likes being a pinata or a punching bag, even you might recognize this. If 5 rednecks started calling you sexist names I bet your hackles would rise too. BTW, I don't agree with the ignorance part. In fact, I think it's ignorant of people to claim I hate women just because I might someday want to date a lot of them.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
I still haven’t figured out what you have come here for? What your purpose is?
See below. From 60 days ago.
Originally Posted by tom_h
Well, my STBXW isn't talking but I've been in therapy with an awesome therapist and here's what I need to work on as 180s:
1) Communication 2) Empathy, especially when it is not automatic -- e.g., don't be dismissive even of the small things 3) Concern for what she is concerned about 4) Attending to her love languages 5) Being vulnerable, talking about feelings 6) Respect -- by the end of the marriage, we were mutually disrespectful too often, although she would probably only claim I was 7) Priorities -- caring more for people rather than ideas, politics, current events
If anyone is interested I'll talk more about the 180s in a more detailed post.
Posted on September 30, 2020. The response was .... crickets.
But here is your answer, Ginger. Want to help me? Stop focusing on an errant word or two that you happen to dislike, which was not meant for any harmful reason, and focus on helping me with the above seven 180s. I think you, and Rose, and LH, and a few others have been so blinded that you're missing what you're supposed to be doing.
Frankly, I'm still shocked that we're in the third thread and my greatest "critics" are still unaware that I was reaching out for their perspective two months ago.
As for accusations of being an A$$, there's a lot of that going around, even among the sanctimonious people here on DB. I already provided one example. Why don't we all cut each other some slack? A great man once said, "to err is human, to forgive in divine." Give that some thought.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Do you want people to just agree with you, or do you want to learn and grow?
Grow? Isn't that obvious to you that such was always my intent? Where have the rest of you been for the past 60 days?
I've been through a lot of pain and while Steve85 thinks I'm far along, I really am not. I have very blue days once a week. I am not over this separation and future divorce. I have good days and lots of ups and downs. Seems to me that my erstwhile "friends" here at DB, if they truly want to help, have been focused on the wrong things. Remember, you're the ones who are past this all and are supposed to be helping the ones still on crutches.
It seems to me we've been talking a lot about communication, empathy, respect, and caring for people, and pointing out times when you haven't 180ed in those areas.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
I think working on your #2 goal-- empathy-- might really help you in a lot of ways, and I think stretching your empathy muscles will also have a positive impact on pretty much every other one of your 180s (potentially excepting #5).
Not too long ago, I think, there was a piece in the NYT about how to be more empathetic-- if you missed it, I would google it and see what you think and if any of the suggestions in there are things you would consider trying.
As an empathy exercise, if you're open to it, I might consider reading the threads/situations of those who have posted here that you disagree with. Sit with their stories. Listen to their perspectives. Try on their shoes for a bit, and then go back to what they posted to you and see if it still stings as much, or if you are able to take a different angle, maybe one that allows you to take things less personally. Sometimes practicing empathy on strangers can be easier than those to whom you are closer, because you're less emotionally attached.
Another practice you might find helpful is the loving kindness meditation (google it, and/or available in many meditation apps), which can help strengthen your compassion muscles-- both self-compassion and compassion/connection for others.
And gently... even just in your above response to Ginger, there are a number of places where you could have demonstrated better communication, empathy, vulnerability, respect, and concern. I understand that you're feeling attacked and defensive. But calling people here sanctimonious, blind, ignorant and criticizing them for not reading every word of all of your posts before sharing their thoughts... if you're trying to get people to drop off your thread, you're on the right path. I doubt you'll have many folks left. And I will freely share with you that I am among those offended by some of the things you've said.
I thought what CW suggested a few pages ago was right on-- trying to look yourself for things people might have considered to be sexist or offensive in some way, and taking that as an opportunity to learn and grow, not simply getting defensive and trying to shut everyone down.
I mean, if you don't care that people are offended by some of the things you say, then okay. But if you do care-- and want to actually BE a more empathetic, caring, respectful person with strong communication skills-- then I would -- again, gently-- suggest that you take a step back, try to understand where people are coming from, and where you might make changes such that folks here can see your empathy, respect, and concern for others shining through in your words. Maybe it is just your communication style and skills you need to work on, I don't know. But do you agree that there is something to consider in all of this? Or is everyone here just ignorant, condescending and unhelpful?
Best wishes, May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think working on your #2 goal-- empathy-- might really help you in a lot of ways, and I think stretching your empathy muscles will also have a positive impact on pretty much every other one of your 180s (potentially excepting #5).
Not too long ago, I think, there was a piece in the NYT about how to be more empathetic-- if you missed it, I would google it and see what you think and if any of the suggestions in there are things you would consider trying.
As an empathy exercise, if you're open to it, I might consider reading the threads/situations of those who have posted here that you disagree with. Sit with their stories. Listen to their perspectives. Try on their shoes for a bit, and then go back to what they posted to you and see if it still stings as much, or if you are able to take a different angle, maybe one that allows you to take things less personally. Sometimes practicing empathy on strangers can be easier than those to whom you are closer, because you're less emotionally attached.
Another practice you might find helpful is the loving kindness meditation (google it, and/or available in many meditation apps), which can help strengthen your compassion muscles-- both self-compassion and compassion/connection for others.
And gently... even just in your above response to Ginger, there are a number of places where you could have demonstrated better communication, empathy, vulnerability, respect, and concern. I understand that you're feeling attacked and defensive. But calling people here sanctimonious, blind, ignorant and criticizing them for not reading every word of all of your posts before sharing their thoughts... if you're trying to get people to drop off your thread, you're on the right path. I doubt you'll have many folks left. And I will freely share with you that I am among those offended by some of the things you've said.
I thought what CW suggested a few pages ago was right on-- trying to look yourself for things people might have considered to be sexist or offensive in some way, and taking that as an opportunity to learn and grow, not simply getting defensive and trying to shut everyone down.
I mean, if you don't care that people are offended by some of the things you say, then okay. But if you do care-- and want to actually BE a more empathetic, caring, respectful person with strong communication skills-- then I would -- again, gently-- suggest that you take a step back, try to understand where people are coming from, and where you might make changes such that folks here can see your empathy, respect, and concern for others shining through in your words. Maybe it is just your communication style and skills you need to work on, I don't know. But do you agree that there is something to consider in all of this? Or is everyone here just ignorant, condescending and unhelpful?
Best wishes, May
All wonderful words, May, and thank you for taking the time. Especially for the counsel about empathy. In my 180s I was referring to those I love, having more empathy to be certain. [I really wish one of you would ask me to explore how I'm working on that one with my daughters, for example! ... crickets? ...] More empathy for all of humanity? Well, yes ... I work in a tough industry though and empathy is usually low on in priority in the circles I run in.
While I agree with what you say, I just wish that one of you would offer to me what you are expecting back ... e.g., empathy! Only Steve85 seems to show it.
Question: let's take for granted that empathy is a good quality that everyone should have as much as possible. Situation: an extremely distressed patient goes to see a doctor for a medical condition related to her extremely distressed state. Who should be showing the most empathy at the moment -- the doctor for the distressed patient, or the patient for the doctor? And in this situation, which one am I?
Perhaps you now see my point. Show some empathy, don't call me childish names, don't scream that I hate women, and engage with where my head and heart are trying to go. Read over my posts. Surely you can tell that I am a sensitive man. Passionate, yes. A bit high strung, yes. Never at a loss for words, yes. Frustrated and crestfallen because my wife left me, yes! A short temper when people gang up on me, yes! But I defy you to find a hateful or cruel word I've written. I have been sincere and penitent and more about my failings for the past 3 months that I've been here on DB. That alone is huge movement on my part.
You seem like a logical guy. So let me gently point out a few inconsistencies here:
Originally Posted by tomh
Question: let's take for granted that empathy is a good quality that everyone should have as much as possible. Situation: an extremely distressed patient goes to see a doctor for a medical condition related to her extremely distressed state. Who should be showing the most empathy at the moment -- the doctor for the distressed patient, or the patient for the doctor? And in this situation, which one am I?
We aren't your doctor. A doctor is a compensated professional. For you, this would be your IC, and yes, a good IC is quite skilled at validation and demonstrating empathy for his/her patients. We are a group of strangers on the internet trying to help you because we care. (FWIW, this constantly amazes me-- I feel it is a demonstration of the intrinsic goodness of humanity.)
No one here has any obligation to respond or help. Some of your comments, such as "crickets" for no responses to certain posts and shaming people for responding to a post without having read your entire thread carefully, make it sound as though you think this community is obligated to help you out, and then, only in the ways you want to be supported. If that is what you're looking for, I'd recommend increasing the frequency of your IC visits.
Now, let's add a little more detail to your illustration. The patient has lung cancer and is smoking, smoking in fact throughout the appointment with the doctor. Should the doctor point that out? Tell her she needs to stop smoking right away? Perhaps the patient has a bad habit that exacerbates her condition, and doesn't even realize when she is engaging in it-- maybe, say, she has bad headaches, and it turns out she's unconsciously grinding her teeth-- in fact, she's (again) doing it right in front of the doctor. Should the doctor tell her?
Of course. You have self-identified that empathy is a problem for you (though it seems only want to practice it on loved ones), people are trying to point out here when you are displaying a lack of empathy (or respect, another 180 you've identified), and you respond with defensiveness. Hey, I get it. It doesn't feel good. That doesn't mean it isn't worth examining.
FWIW, I'm not looking for empathy from you. I just thought it would be a good exercise if you wanted to work on being more empathetic to try to think of the folks who you see as attacking you here as real people who have walked a similar path in the past, and who are genuinely trying to help you.
No need to respond, I'm not interested in getting into a debate with you. I think it would be better, honestly, if you just thought on what people have said here rather than respond. And, I'm sure people would be interested in hearing where you feel you've shown progress with your daughters. I'm glad you see movement in yourself.
Best, May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
1) Communication 2) Empathy, especially when it is not automatic -- e.g., don't be dismissive even of the small things 3) Concern for what she is concerned about 4) Attending to her love languages 5) Being vulnerable, talking about feelings 6) Respect -- by the end of the marriage, we were mutually disrespectful too often, although she would probably only claim I was 7) Priorities -- caring more for people rather than ideas, politics, current events
Hi Tom,
These are all good items to work on. #1 gets us all in trouble. Words are abstract and are misinterpreted. When conversations start to go south, I focus on my communication. I have to switch to listen mode. I do this frequently with my lady. I focus on the non-verbal parts. Body language, facial expressions, tones etc. This also ties into #2. I am 10 years post BD, but I still tear up reading threads here. Triggers all kinds of things for me. Ozman especially.
Since you have limited contact with your W, you may want to conciser practicing with others. That is what worked for me. My X never had a change of heart, but the new skills helped in all my romantic encounters.
I would be careful with the first part of #5. I don't believe a woman needs/wants this from her man. Just my opinion based off my studies and observations.
I never know if people are using the word feelings instead of emotions. Maybe elaborate more so I understand better.
I believe I suck at #5. I show my lady through my actions vs my words.
#6,7 Again with the limited contact with W, practicing with others burns the new behavior into your core behavior. Ultimately that is what is important.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Here I thought I was empathetic towards you, Tom! Crickets. Just kidding. I'll work more on my empathy. I'll generalize and say women are more empathetic than me. I think all men need to work on it. My girlfriend took a test, and the results stated that her number one quality was empathy, so I have a lot of catching up to do. I'm going to let others try to help you out with empathy. The women can probably help you out the most
My question for you, Tom is: are you used to winning? I get the feeling from your posts that you are used to winning, that you are competitive, and that you are a little tightly wound. I wonder if that plays into the difficulty you are having with the divorce. Part of it may be you feel like you lost at the marriage thing. I know I did. I felt like a failure, and I hate losing.
FYI - nobody on this forum is getting paid to help others. We all came here as broken people looking to save our marriages. I've stuck around because the help I received was valuable to me and because I'm interested in knowing how the situations turn out for the people who were on the board at the same time as me.
