What the Perpetual Victim is trying to tell you is - no one can help me.
When you encounter a Perpetual Victim, remember to just empathize and listen.
Once you are emotionally involved, you have entered the trap of a mind game. You will start playing the part of the Perpetual Rescuer, always there to provide guidance and comfort. Then, feelings of failure and resentment will start to accumulate. Because guess what? Your guidance and comfort did nothing.
Once you have a well of resentment built up, you might start to complain, even reprimand the Perpetual Victim. Now you could potentially be seen by the Perpetual Victim as the culprit of it all. Finally, the Perpetual Victim’s belief is thus strengthened - "No one can help me, it is hopeless!"
If this Perpetual Victim is your partner, then he or she has another trick up their sleeves. You will ALWAYS be seen as the perpetrator! Any negative emotions they are feeling will be YOUR fault.
When a person pushes away all responsibilities to others, he or she is making the announcement - “I am a baby.” Because there is only one type of human being in this world who can, without judgement, take no responsibility - a baby.
From Psychology Today:
The victim will definitely complain and even whine to others about how hard life is. But if anyone ever offers him some options for changing that life, the victim classically comes back with a long list of "Yes, buts." If we ever have the heart and temerity to confront him with this fact, he is liable to begin to cry and tell us repeatedly that we just don't understand how hard it is for him.
She will beg you to fix her life, then when you offer the fix, she'll either find a way to sabotage your fix or she'll complain that you "did it all wrong," and, "what's the matter with you?" Or, she'll refuse your fixes altogether. You'll be frustrated and try all the harder to get her to see she needs help or some solution to the problem and you'll stay hoping against hope that she'll get it.
Of course, the secondary gain for the victim is in the fact that he can get people to stay and take care of him in just this way—for who could ever really leave the poor victim without feeling terribly guilty. In this way, victims often bully others into all kinds of care-giving, running the gamut from providing financially for poor victim, to literally making all of his choices for him. The victim typically knows exactly what buttons to push in others to get them to begin or continue to take care of him. Indeed, quite often the bully identity lurches backward into his shadowed victim identity, as a means of justifying his abuse of others.
Wooba, this is fascinating to read, thank you for sharing.
On someone's thread on the Newcomers forum, there was a discussion about the rescuer-victim-oppressor triage (I believe it stems from Karpman's drama triage) and this is an interesting extension of the victim-rescuer dynamic.
When you read this, what did it make you feel? How did it change your perspective and the direction you are heading?
When you read this, what did it make you feel? How did it change your perspective and the direction you are heading?
Dear Sage,
It made me feel like this is what I was doing for the entirety of our marriage. The only difference was H was blaming EVERYONE, not just me. I am shocked now to see how much I put up with. I often think about those years, putting my own needs behind everyone else's, leaving the M never once crossed my mind because of our children. I remember feeling like a prostitute. staying in the M, doing it, for the financial security. We did have some good times, at times H treated me like I was his savior. I took on that job by default, and it continued to be my mode of operation throughout our M.
I came across this article by accident, but it was almost a sign. Last night H came and dropped off the kids after his time with them, and at drop off he was teary eyed. He gave the boys good bye hugs, and he looked like he was going to cry.
I empathize, I do. But at the same time I understand now that there is nothing I can do to help him, nor should I feel any guilt about his sadness. It is his life to live, and he is the one who needs to sit with his choices.
Hey wooba, Christmas is really, really hard. But it's also incredibly freeing. XH who was also a perpetual victim, and from what I know it has a lot to do with addiction, was in complete control of our Xmas celebrations. I had to see my family near Xmas not on the eve or the day of, if I wanted to see them at all. He also insisted on a real tree which was never my deal. The first year apart I spent Xmas eve completely alone wrapping and drinking and taking a bath. And Xmas day with my grandparents. The following year I was with my now H and he was so happy to do what ever I wanted when ever I wanted and work together to do both families I had no idea what that was like. The following year I got the fake pre-lit Christmas tree I had always wanted. It was great. The girls put the tree up now together while I drink wine and decorate other stuff. New traditions are wonderful. Your kids will learn to love them. And the old ones will be fond memories. You have a line. You know what's best for you. The glorious thing about kids is they adapt.
As to the perpetual victim thing, I wish I had realized it sooner, as I'm sure you do too. But recognizing it and stopping the cycle is the best thing you can do for you. As the kids age they'll notice and you can have deeper conversations about the perpetual victim thing as their age allows, because he can and will turn them in to perpetrators. Things have been strained pretty much since XH realized I wasn't coming back. He did and does continue to make me a perpetrator. As D18 aged and called XH out on the behavior she too became a perpetrator. She has far less tolerance for it than I have. I know why he is the way he is. Not that I excuse it. I just can't see myself not pitying him. It's all I really have left, that and the memories from the handful of years when he wasn't a victim 24/7. I see the same behavior with H's ex. They had a pretty heated exchange when H and I first started dating. She had left D16 at a "friend's" house and went drinking. D16 at the time was barely 9. She called H to come get her because "she was tired and wasn't having fun any more." She had been there for hours. She didn't even really know the people she was left with. H flipped out on his ex and asked her why she would do that, why can't she just do the right thing for her kid, keep a job, get a car, keep a roof over their heads. Her response...he left. Every failing she had as an adult and a mother was because he left. The irony of all that was that he didn't actually leave. She kept leaving to party and would stay out all night leaving him with a toddler alone when he'd have to work. So he got fed up took the little one by his mom's packed ex's stuff up put it on the porch and changed the locks. Thankfully they never married. So it was that simple. But perpetual victims as partners are a life long hardship when you have kids with them. Your journey is going to be a long one. I'm sending all my love and all the good juju I can send your way.
oh girl. you read my mind. I know my kids still love their dad and this has been on my mind lately - they will empathize with him, but will they understand that he is the one responsible for his own feelings? obviously they might still be a bit young to understand the perpetual victim mentality. I think the best I can do for now is to demonstrate that I will not tolerate someone who treats me poorly and I will protect my self-interest. And do all of that with kindness.
S11 has a big year end overnight trip coming up with school and I asked H for his consent. (I could've just leave him out of the decision making process but I was afraid it's going to come back and bite me somehow) H was being a PITA as usual, and I asked S11 whether he really wants to go. "Because if you do, you'll have to talk to dad and let him know that you really want to go on this trip!" I told him he needs to call his dad and get a "yes" so I can sign up for the trip. S11 said "never mind, I don't really need to go anyway." I kept asking him and I could see that he was visibly upset. And he finally confessed that he's afraid dad will say no. I asked him if he wants me to talk to dad, and he said yes.
So I called, put H on speaker phone, S11 next to me. H was out, from the sound of the background he was probably out drinking. I asked him about the trip. But basically he was drunk.
H: "Where are they going?" Me: " [location], I texted you the info already." H: "I don't think I got it" Me: "I'm pretty sure you did"　(it's marked as read) H: "so it's this weekend right?" Me: "no....it's in January"
and it basically went into a loop several times until he said yes. I had to record our call so that he can't turn around and claim that he never agreed for S11 to go on the trip.
So my Q is, when is it age appropriate for me to tell my boys that their father is an alcoholic?? It would explain A LOT of his behavior.
11 is old enough to understand the concept. Honestly you can probably find a good way to explain it to pretty much every age group on the internet. It's just they won't get the totality of it until they get older and can synthesize memories and what they know to be true and the information you've given them regarding their dad. S11 is probably right around the age where he can put the pieces together. I was very vocal about XH's AODA issues. I never hid my kid from what he was. However in my case I'd go to work and he'd pass out and leave her unattended at 2.
My kiddo has always been and always will be a resourceful girl. She would push a chair to the cabinet with snacks get what she wanted. Take a small juice box out of the fridge. Turn on her favorite channel cover her dad with a blanket and herself and just sit until I got home. After it happened a few times I stopped leaving her there alone until she was older. So when he'd pass out, or hurt himself, or do anything else I would flat out say "Daddy's been drinking. He'll be fine, we just need to worry about us." One of his drinking buddies was over and I said that, and he tried to tell me that was inappropriate and I was a bad mother/wife. I said "You can have that conversation with your wife in your house. In my house I don't lie to my kid. She'll be living with this the rest of her life. As will your kids. She needs to start understanding now, while I can help her. She needs to know it's not her fault or her job to worry about him. What you want me to lie and say he's sick, he fell, he had an accident, or is confused, sad, or angry or some other excuse? I don't lie to my kid, and I certainly don't take parenting advice from drunks." Not a very fine validating moment on my part but I was a lot younger, D18 was probably 6 or 7, and looking at a guy hanging out in my backyard drinking with my XH passed out, instead of going home or helping me get him indoors. Or literally anything else.
It's a fine line with littler ones because they don't necessarily have the filter to not say "Mom said you're an alcoholic." But ala-teen has a lot to offer. Like al-anon you can find a lot of the materials online. Al-anon family groups you can usually find info for little on up to adults with alcoholics/addicts in their lives. Like I've said. I never did get all the way through the al-anon steps but it gave me a lot of tools for detachment, not enabling just to make life easier, boundaries, and how to help my daughter communicate and set her own boundaries with her dad. Some people like the community. Some people need the accountability for boundaries and enabling. I didn't really need either on a long term basis. I just needed a little support and a push, but the materials and the kids groups have been great resources to me.
The having to circle around questions 1,000 times, the forgetfulness, a lot of times due to the walking black outs, the misplaced anger, the dual personalities is all very, very tiring. And I'm going to be honest it only gets less tiring when the kids get old enough that you have to tell them they need to be their own advocates. I fought a lot of battles on my daughter's behalf for many years, by 15 though I tapped out. We had to have a long talk about how her dad's thinking makes it difficult for me to continue taking up the battles, because he wanted to believe that I was going out of my way to keep her from him, not that she didn't want to see him. Also because there was going to be a day where I wasn't going to be able to swoop in and put him promptly in his place and sort it all out. That she needed to start to learn how to navigate her dad. The one nice thing about alcoholics is they have little to no follow through so in my state by 12 kids can determine their placement & visitation, so I kept up the deal until she was 13. At that point I left it up to her. He constantly threatened to take me to court. I told him to try. I'd love to see him explain a motion before a judge. He never did. He knew it would be too much time, money and effort for a judge to completely re-write our order and give me full placement and custody with visitation upon mutual agreement.
You have the strength to do this, and so do those lovely boys, but it's going to be really, really hard some days.
My L called me today, bringing me bad news that H basically does not want to budge on giving me more child support.
If 30% of income is what I would be entitled to per our state law, I would be getting around 15% only here. That DOES NOT cover our expenses.
My friend who went through a divorce herself gave me this advice: Ask yourself would you want to stay married to this person over it.
My answer is a definite no, I rather take less and be divorce than to drag it out wishing that he would budge.
It's still devastating though. I was hoping that I would get close to what I'm entitled to.
I have a job interview next week which I'm stressing about. I'm also still running my own business, but I need a steady source of income. My business is doing okay, but a job would provide me with more security.
If I do get the job....all the logistics that come with it....who's going to watch my kids? How should I arrange afterschool care?
Also we are probably going to move within the next 3 months. I'm throwing stuff out like crazy right now because our next apartment will definitely be a lot smaller. S11 does not like a smaller place, does not want to move....
Why don't you file a petition for interim child support with your state and get the state amount?
Why would you have to take less just to rush your divorce forward?
I mean, I understand the feeling, but you can budge on assets and debts, there is really no reason to agree to lower child support and every reason to establish a precedent of getting the right child support.
What is the point of paying a lawyer to get you half the child support you'd get without a lawyer?
Read my post to Canbird that I just wrote, same idea for you.
I get it, I was desperate to end this nightmare quickly. But standing for your marriage can also be about standing for your kids. They need that other 15%, for college if not for now. But a good lawyer will include a life insurance policy and a college fund in support agreements.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Wooba being abroad for this is messy and I'm sorry. A couple of things. 1) When I was finally done with exH I left with our clothes, some kitchen stuff, and my family's heirloom Xmas ornaments I had to start from scratch and I was basically destitute. I was on food share for a little while. It was completely and totally worth it. We were living with a friend in a spare room for a little while. Then a tiny studio. I thought it would be horrible going from a 3 bedroom house with a drive and a yard. It wasn't. It was perfect and was exactly what we needed to heal together away from exH. 2) I know you're only entitled to 15% (which seems absolutely bonkers to me for 3 kids) are you entitled to other things spousal support, 1/2 the assets/retirement/marital property? Is there something your L can fight for that would put your books into a better balance?
